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 Ahtman wrote:

Vetril wrote:
> Implying that a Jedi can use a saberstaff but can't use a normal lightsaber.

>using 4chan implying when you could just state your argument.

All Jedi/Sith can use a regular lightsaber, some just learn special techniques that are designed around dual wielding or wielding a saberstaff. Specific techniques for specific weapon types is not a new or radical idea. One does not complain that long spear attacks are different than sword attacks after all.

Except that there is no real reason for locking down a class to a single weapon. If a tree unlocks Juyo, which is a lightsaber way of fighting, why can't I apply it to whatever lightsaber my Jedi prefers? It's just laziness from the dev team. What if I want to use a marauder with a saberstaff, for example? Nope. So much for customization - you get one type of weapon, one type of armor, and now you get to choose even less skills, with the new disciplines patch.

Not to mention other classes: oh look, Boba Fett used a rifle. Can my bounty hunter use a rifle? No? Why? I guess that, following your reasoning, his shoulder mounted rocket launcher is a specific technique designed around dual wielding pistols. Or the sorcerer's lightning shield - you better have a lightsaber or a sword equipped, because you need a weapon to use the force and create a shield around your body.

All in all, if I want to play a class based pvp game with very little customization, I'd rather play TF2.

The class isn't locked down to one weapon, the sub-class is. If you want free form character creation on that level you are looking for pen and paper RPGs. Even then there are limits, but you can just get a DM to let you ignore them if you want.

I can't recall any version of a Star Wars RPG, computer or otherwise, that let a Jedi be all things and use any power with any ability and any weapon.

 Ahtman wrote:
The class isn't locked down to one weapon, the sub-class is. If you want free form character creation on that level you are looking for pen and paper RPGs. Even then there are limits, but you can just get a DM to let you ignore them if you want.

I can't recall any version of a Star Wars RPG, computer or otherwise, that let a Jedi be all things and use any power with any ability and any weapon.

That's because Jedi can't. A Jedi will have an affinity with the force, their master will choose how to act on it. That's when they learn how to use a set type of saber/force technique.

I guess I'm lucky that Healer Trooper can still use rifles. I hate the look of the assault cannons, so I keep my fem trooper equipped with a rifle. Sure, she can't use some of her dps abilities, but she's a healer. None of the Trooper healing abilities require an assault cannon. It's loads of fun going into PvP with a rifle and having everyone mistake you for a dps for the first few minutes. It sure helps cut down on the "kill the healer" aggro I usually get on my Sage.

 Ahtman wrote:
The class isn't locked down to one weapon, the sub-class is. If you want free form character creation on that level you are looking for pen and paper RPGs. Even then there are limits, but you can just get a DM to let you ignore them if you want.

I can't recall any version of a Star Wars RPG, computer or otherwise, that let a Jedi be all things and use any power with any ability and any weapon.

You're avoiding the critic: "the classes are weapon locked, why?" "Not true, the subclasses are weapon locked"... So I'll ask, why are the subclasses weapon locked? It makes no sense. None.
For all its flaws, ESO got customization right: you can use whatever armor and weapon you want, and thus bend the classes' chassis in different directions.

I never said I'd like to use any power with any ability and any weapon. I said I'd like to be able to customize my character to a reasonable amount. Surely asking to be able to use a rifle as a bounty hunterm or forget about lightsabers all together and go all Palpatine on someone as a sith sorcerer isn't asking too much? We're in 2014, guys, and that's from a guy with a degree in computer science.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
That's because Jedi can't. A Jedi will have an affinity with the force, their master will choose how to act on it. That's when they learn how to use a set type of saber/force technique.

As for this, ignoring the fact that at least 2 of the lightsaber styles that were estabilished in the KOTOR brand are still missing (Niman and Makashi), the classes are so restrictive that you can't even fit iconic characters within that particular framework. What's Yoda, to be able to use Ataru? A Jedi Sentinel?

None of these artificial limitations make any sense, apart from "lol keep classes completely separated". It's lazy design and it actively holds back the game. Heck, even WoW lets you choose the weapon you want to use; and that's a game that came out ages ago.

Vetril wrote:
You're avoiding the critic: "the classes are weapon locked, why?" "Not true, the subclasses are weapon locked"...

Well no, I'm just being accurate.

Vetril wrote:
So I'll ask, why are the subclasses weapon locked? It makes no sense. None.

Because you are choosing the type of fighting style you want which includes weapon. Yes, you don't have a realistic option of choosing a saberstaff wielder and not using a saberstaff.

Vetril wrote:
For all its flaws, ESO got customization right: you can use whatever armor and weapon you want, and thus bend the classes' chassis in different directions.

Pretending ESO has no limitations on character building is a bit dishonest here.

Vetril wrote:
I never said I'd like to use any power with any ability and any weapon. I said I'd like to be able to customize my character to a reasonable amount.

Of course you didn't literally use those words, you just want a special snowflake that doesn't follow the mechanics of the game. I understand your criticism, just don't think it is reasonable.

Vetril wrote:
Surely asking to be able to use a rifle as a bounty hunter

That actually wouldn't hurt anything as mechanically a pistol and a rifle are the same. The same isn't true for a lightsaber and a saberstaff.

Vetril wrote:
or forget about lightsabers all together and go all Palpatine on someone as a sith sorcerer isn't asking too much?

No character has ever lived up to what written characters can do. NPCs always break rules, not to mention Palpatine does have a saber, he just doesn't use it all that much. Again for this level of freedom and customization you are looking for a house ruled PnP game and even then you would have to be quite leveled.

Vetril wrote:
We're in 2014, guys, and that's from a guy with a degree in computer science.

If that were a degree in game design maybe that would be meaningful here, but it ain't so it isn't.

Vetril wrote:
None of these artificial limitations make any sense

You not liking it doesn't keep it from making sense, you just don't like it.

Vetril wrote:
Heck, even WoW lets you choose the weapon you want to use

Either you don't remember or you haven't played Wow in awhile and are fantasizing a bit, but you are limited to certain weapons on classes in WoW and even then certain weapons are for certain builds. A DPS Paladin using a one hander (which they don't have access to all one handed weapons) and shield will be quite handicapped in damage whereas a Tank Paladin using a Two-handed weapon (which they don't have access to all two handed weapons) would also be quite handicapped and terrible at tanking. As for why NPCs can do stuff that PCs can't read above but to reiterate NPCs in any situation can do things PCs have been limited to.

Actually, I did study game design extensively, together with computer graphics and coding for real time environments.
In fact, the only reason I am not working in the gaming industry is because my job's paycheck is higher than what I'd earn as a 3d artist or as a game designer, and I still get to make art at work.

With that out of the way...

Let me make sure I understood, I asked why a subclass has to be weapon locked, and you replied with what boils down to "because they are weapon locked"? That's circular logic!
Is there a reason for them to be weapon locked? Again, why can't a bounty hunter use a rifle? You keep saying these limitations do make sense, but yet you fail to provide a reason for them.

You point out that a lightsaber and a saberstaff are mechanically different, but that's the consequence of having classes that are weapon locked, not the cause.
"Mechanically different" is not an excuse for arbitrary limitations: who makes the mechanics? The same guys that get choose who uses what. If they want to widen the selection of weapons that is available to a class, they can rework the mechanics. If they wanted to do that to begin with, they'd have designed the mechanics around it.
Furthermore, effective separation of appearance from stats is nothing new on the MMO scene. Which means that, for some reason, the developers actually chose to keep the classes' options so narrow.

Are we even comparing the amount of character customization of SWTOR and ESO?
ESO does have limitations on character builds, but if you want to use heavy armor on a mage, you can. Want to make a rogue with a greatsword? Pick it up and start swinging.
That's good design - they decided to give a lot of room to the players, when it comes down to tweaking what their character can or can't do. You get to choose, and I can't stress how good giving choices is.
Unconvinced? Let's look at WoW: even the mage, one of the classes with the least amount of weapon proficiencies, gets to choose between staves, wands, swords and daggers.
Compare to the Sith Sorcerer's selection: single bladed lightsaber.
But the worst of it - if as a WoW mage you choose not to equip a weapon for whatever reason, you can still cast all of your spells; in SWTOR, you won't be able to cast some of your Force powers.
Thank you, developer, but I know what I am doing when I try something out of the norm; and even if I don't, it should be my choice. So, stop holding my hand.

As for NPCs being different, one of SWTOR strong points is, hands down, the setting. That a player can't even make a fairly accurate version of iconic characters such as Yoda isn't a good thing. what you collectively call "the NPCs" make up half of the reasons why Star Wars as a brand is so successful and loved by its fan base. If players can't reproduce Yoda, Qui Gon or Boba Fett, a significant part of the potential is wasted. Looking at game stats, the dwindling number of paying players seems to confirm that the license was actually misused.

Bottom line - do you like to play SWTOR? More power to you!
Personally, I'm not going to pick it up again until I am actually given a reasonable variety of character customization.

Because it's designed that way. The game is also about five years older than ESO, from a developer that is less about customization and choose-your-own-adventure gaming than it its about telling a cohesive story with the game being the medium through which that tale is told.

Being unable to make carbon copies of characters from the setting is a good thing. I don't want to see 5000 donkey-caves running around as Galen Starkiller, after all. If players cannot reproduce Yoda, Qui Gon or Boba Fett, I believe that's a credit to the game.

Vetril wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
That's because Jedi can't. A Jedi will have an affinity with the force, their master will choose how to act on it. That's when they learn how to use a set type of saber/force technique.

As for this, ignoring the fact that at least 2 of the lightsaber styles that were estabilished in the KOTOR brand are still missing (Niman and Makashi), the classes are so restrictive that you can't even fit iconic characters within that particular framework. What's Yoda, to be able to use Ataru? A Jedi Sentinel?

None of these artificial limitations make any sense, apart from "lol keep classes completely separated". It's lazy design and it actively holds back the game. Heck, even WoW lets you choose the weapon you want to use; and that's a game that came out ages ago.

To answer your questions about Niman and Makashi. They're both represented. Niman is a balanced form, already represented by Shii-Cho. Makashi is an agressive form, already represented by Soresu.

Adding those two forms would just be additional effort to add nothing to gameplay.

As for the limitations, what part of my answer wasn't clear? Jedi and Sith spend most of their lives mastering one school of combat/force application. There are few exceptions to this, and they're the ridiculously well known Sith/Jedi, like Exar Kun. This is the guy who INVENTED the double bladed sabers, and the finest duelist of his era.

Not every force sensitive has that luxury. Most are average. You can't just have a Force User master all aspects of saber combat, or force techniques, as that is physically impossible to do in a lifetime. Niman itself requires at least ten years of study to become competent at it.

It's extremely rare for a Jedi to be proficient in multiple saber forms. Mace Windu is the only 'mainstream' canon Jedi to have a mastery of multiple forms. Most would have a basic understanding of the forms, but would only be a master of one. Obi-Wan was famous as a master of Ataru, and while Anakin studied all forms but Vapaad (Windu refused to teach him the form), he had an undeniable favor for Shien.

Dooku exclusively used Makashi and is one of the only force users in all of Star Wars to be a master of it (along side the more recent character of the Inquisitor from Rebels). That Makashi isn't present in game is quite accurate, as it's typically treated as a training form, and not one to be mastered.

The only thing that SWTOR gets wrong from this perspective is that none of the forms really specify the kind of Lightsaber to be used. Technically all the forms can accomadate any kind of lightsaber (or two of them) but honestly that's just childish knit picking.


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the classes are so restrictive that you can't even fit iconic characters within that particular framework.

This is also kind of comical;

Juggernaut was clearly designed to emulate Darth Vader, Guardian in turn being designed after Anakin Skywalker and the Soresu side of Obi-Wan.

Marauder and Sentinel are transparently based on Asajj Ventress and Aayla Secura.

Sorcerer is Palpatine, and Sage is Yoda/Luminara Unduli. Assassin might as well be renamed 'Darth Maul.' Shadow is the most out of place, but only because I can't think of any Jedi who made use of a double bladed light saber from the main canon. Just one off characters like Bastilla, her great-so on grand daughter, and that guy from Clone Wars who had 2 of them XD

Power Tech is Boba Fett, Mercenary Cade Bane, both flavors of Republic Trooper are Clone Troopers, Smuggler is Han Solo, and Imperial Agent is Jagged Fel.

Honestly the classes were so blatantly based on Characters from the films and EU that decrying them as not fitting just because the Forms aren't perfectly matched is obtuse.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
To answer your questions about Niman and Makashi. They're both represented. Niman is a balanced form, already represented by Shii-Cho. Makashi is an agressive form, already represented by Soresu.

Re-read what you just wrote. Seriously. Plus, I assume you meant Shien, instead of Soresu.

Even then, Makashi is anything but aggressive. Or a training form.

Anyway. I'd just like to point out that you guys are saying that Makashi, the style developed specifically for lightsaber duels, is supposed to be rare in an era with so many Sith and Jedi? I'm amused by the suggestion. And yes, the style existed during the TOR era.

One thing I am convinced of is that either you do something right, or you don't do it at all: "sort of" is not the same as "perfectly". If you can't fit a dude precisely, then you can't.
Jedi didn't study more than one style because they saw no need, not because they weren't able to - in peaceful eras they picked up Niman because it's the advanced style that offers the easiest basics. Cin Drallig was one of the guys to master multiple styles - and that's all there is to say about this particular issue, I'm not going to be dragged into a nerdy lore debate which won't add anything to the discussion.

Still haven't given me a good reason, but I wasn't exactly holding my breath.

A good reason for what? You getting back into the game? You sound like one of those lore neckbeards that argues red cups wouldn't be behind the bar of a Republic cantina on Thursdays. Exactly the sort of person who makes me log out of MMOs to play Skyrim or DAI.

Basically, no one gives a feth about what styles are and are not perfectly fit into the game, since the EU and even the original films changed their mind during the course of the story-arc.

Fun fact: Vader was not originally Luke's father, Leia and Luke weren't written as siblings in ANH, Padme didn't die in birth (according to Leia) and none of them were intended to be human beings in the original drafts.

And, again, thank God people cannot duplicate canon characters into TOR. Most such people attempting such antics are insufferable asshats.

Vetril wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
To answer your questions about Niman and Makashi. They're both represented. Niman is a balanced form, already represented by Shii-Cho. Makashi is an agressive form, already represented by Soresu.

Re-read what you just wrote. Seriously. Plus, I assume you meant Shien, instead of Soresu.

Even then, Makashi is anything but aggressive. Or a training form.

Anyway. I'd just like to point out that you guys are saying that Makashi, the style developed specifically for lightsaber duels, is supposed to be rare in an era with so many Sith and Jedi? I'm amused by the suggestion. And yes, the style existed during the TOR era.

One thing I am convinced of is that either you do something right, or you don't do it at all: "sort of" is not the same as "perfectly". If you can't fit a dude precisely, then you can't.
Jedi didn't study more than one style because they saw no need, not because they weren't able to - in peaceful eras they picked up Niman because it's the advanced style that offers the easiest basics. Cin Drallig was one of the guys to master multiple styles - and that's all there is to say about this particular issue, I'm not going to be dragged into a nerdy lore debate which won't add anything to the discussion.

Still haven't given me a good reason, but I wasn't exactly holding my breath.

Makashi is a dueling form for a start. And by the time of the Great Hyperspace war, which by the way, occurs before the events of SWTOR, it had phased out, due to the presence of blasters. That's a major reason why it's probably not in the game.

As for the Jedi thing, you're still incorrect. Jedi train from a young age to be skilled in a specific aspect. There are very few Jedi and Sith who are skilled in more than one. You have Cin Drallig, who was the premier Lightsaber combatant of the Jedi Order of his time. And you have Exar Kun. One of the greatest Duelists of his time. Darth Revan wasn't a master of multiple schools of combat, yet you want some Jedi Scrub, freshly plucked out of the academy to be?


You don't instantaneously learn to master a school of lightsaber combat. It takes many years. As I stated, Niman takes a decade to be an adequate pupil, and a lifetime to master.

Another note about Cin Drallig. As far as I can recall, he's the only one to master six lightsaber forms.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Another note about Cin Drallig. As far as I can recall, he's the only one to master six lightsaber forms.

Yup, until Mace Windu came along.

@Vetril: FYI, the reason, mechanically, that the game requires your Sith Sorcerer to have a lightsaber equipped to use powers is because it needs the rating of the hilt to determine damage for your powers, even though they don't actually originate from the lightsaber.


Not that you actually care about the answers, since apparently you can't or won't accept that a class based game has class based restrictions.

 LordofHats wrote:

Power Tech is Boba Fett, Mercenary Cade Bane, both flavors of Republic Trooper are Clone Troopers, Smuggler is Han Solo, and Imperial Agent is Jagged Fel.

Honestly the classes were so blatantly based on Characters from the films and EU that decrying them as not fitting just because the Forms aren't perfectly matched is obtuse.

This is basically how I felt... though honestly, I would have put ANY BH into the Boba Fett Category (I haven't read any novels or EU material in over 12 years... but we'll say I'm interested and looking again)

I also get the notion expressed here that Sith Assassin should be renamed "Darth Maul"




Also, I heard from a buddy of mine who plays, that apparently the story diverges based on your alignment? As in, if I'm playing more than 1 Bounty Hunter, but I make one decide to make "Light side" choices all the time, and the other one "Dark side" choices, their stories will become completely different, with differing missions and outcomes. Any one lend any credence to that? As it stands, I have 8 characters, 4 per side, and each side is the opposing specialty class (as in, my Jedi Knight can dual wield light sabers, while my Sith Warrior cannot, etc), and I'm hesitant to start up yet another character just to find out

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Also, I heard from a buddy of mine who plays, that apparently the story diverges based on your alignment? As in, if I'm playing more than 1 Bounty Hunter, but I make one decide to make "Light side" choices all the time, and the other one "Dark side" choices, their stories will become completely different, with differing missions and outcomes. Any one lend any credence to that? As it stands, I have 8 characters, 4 per side, and each side is the opposing specialty class (as in, my Jedi Knight can dual wield light sabers, while my Sith Warrior cannot, etc), and I'm hesitant to start up yet another character just to find out

It really doesn't. Anything important is set in stone, you get to choose the small details.

As for the guys above... Whatever, it's not like I have to prove you anything, and arguing over TOR's design on Dakka is not going to change the game. Feel free to play the games you like. I happen not to like SWTOR for the reasons outlined above.

Vetril wrote:
Anyway. I'd just like to point out that you guys are saying that Makashi, the style developed specifically for lightsaber duels, is supposed to be rare in an era with so many Sith and Jedi? I'm amused by the suggestion. And yes, the style existed during the TOR era.

If you want to make complaints based on lore, understand the lore. As it is you're just whiny that your favorite isn't represented, even though lore wise there is an explanation for why. Makashi was popular before lightsabers became the force user weapon of choice. Before deflecting blaster bolts was an option. Once the Lightsaber caught on as a weapon, Makashi became insufficient for the needs of force users, and it's practice dwindled. After the Hyper Space Wars it's use was almost exclusive to teaching younglings form and discipline. It was exceptionally rare for someone to master Makashi or Shi-Cho, but Shi-Cho while rarely mastered, was so widely practiced in training and so basic that most Jedi were somewhat adept at it.

Jedi didn't study more than one style because they saw no need

You don't read much Star Wars. Well, neither do I these days. But come on. Most Jedi and Sith were versed in the basics of all 7 forms, but of them forms 4, 5, and 6 were by far the most practiced to a level of mastery and the most represented among duelists and lightsaber wielders.

not because they weren't able to

Unless your Yoda and live to be 1000, hardly any Jedi/Sith would have the time to obtain a mastery in more than 1 or 2 saber forms. Those who did were Blademasters like Windu, and exceptions rather than rules.

Cin Drallig was one of the guys to master multiple styles

He was also THE Jedi specifically chosen for the task of mastering multiple styles. It was his specific job description to know as many as possible. But the Order only ever had 1 'Battlemaster' and that guy had the glorious job of sitting in the Temple 24/7 and occasionally teaching.

You can take the exceptions and call them the standard all day, it doesn't make it the case or your complaints anything more than childish.

I would have put ANY BH into the Boba Fett Category

I say Bane for Merc because the end game armor Mercs had at release was basically Bane's jacket and silly hat XD


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Vetril wrote:

Spoiler:

For TDA: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_II:_Makashi

Maybe your should read that article?

In the intervening years, the Great Hyperspace War and the Old Sith Wars began and ended in fits and starts, which caused the appearance of Dark Jedi and Sith to take on a sporadic pattern. This, combined with the increasing availability of blaster technology, resulted in Jedi encountering ever-increasing numbers of blaster wielding opponents, but only rarely encountering enemy duelists. As Makashi had been designed strictly for blade-to-blade combat, it lacked an effective means of combating enemies with projectile weapons. Due to this oversight, Makashi lost a great deal of its practical applicability, and over time it faded into relative obsolescence... However, the style would see a return to prominence during the New Sith Wars, a thousand years of off and on warfare which saw the rise and fall of numerous Sith organizations. After the Battle of Ruusan concluded these wars, the style once again faded from popular use and never regained any widespread practice amongst the Jedi.

It's almost like this was explained to you.


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Any one lend any credence to that? As it stands, I have 8 characters, 4 per side, and each side is the opposing specialty class (as in, my Jedi Knight can dual wield light sabers, while my Sith Warrior cannot, etc), and I'm hesitant to start up yet another character just to find out

While I wouldn't say the story line's vary drastically, yes. Your choices will effect certain things, some classes more than others. The biggest chances become apparent towards the end of the story lines where Dark Side and Light Side options end up producing rather varying results for the endings.

It's standard Bioware fare kind of stuff.

I stopped reading when you mixed up Makashi and Shii-Cho, Lord. Go look it up on wookiepedia.

PS - my "favourite style" isn't Makashi. You are choosing to read my critics as whining.

Vetril wrote:
I stopped reading when you mixed up Makashi and Shii-Cho, Lord.

No I didn't...

Seriously. If you're going to whine about the lore not being accurately presented (and yes, you are whining) then understand the lore. You clearly do not. You didn't even read the article on Makashi, which essentially says the exact same thing several posters have told you here.

Except that Makashi was developed after Shii-Cho, which was a style used with mundane blades that was adapted to lightsaber combat. Shii-Cho simply wasn't the best way to duel with lightsabers since it hadn't been originally created for that weapon, and that is what led to the development of form II -Makashi, which is still one of the best forms to employ against another lightsaber user. When blaster deflection became a necessity, Soresu was invented. Makashi fell out of practice when the number of lightsaber users went down: why specialize in duelling if everyone else is shooting you?
See, you're not the only one who reads stuff, so get off your high horse.

Furthermore, I own a stack this high of games waiting for me to play them; so tell me again how much I whine about an MMO that I have no intention or need to reinstall anytime in the near future.

Vetril wrote:
Except that Makashi was developed after Shii-Cho, which was a style used with mundane blades that was adapted to lightsaber combat.

Both Shii-Cho and Makashi were developed from previous styles (and hence, why neither has a direct response for deflecting blaster bolts). Shii-Cho was rudimentary to the point of not even being a form of fighting as a much as a philosophy of fighting. Hence why it was everyone's first form, and one virtually all saber users could employ to some degree. Makashi was the first 'true' form of fighting to employ a light saber, but for the Jedi who created it was more of a sport than a practical fighting form. It's practical application in battle was very limited, both because of it's non-answer to blasters, but also because of it's very strict form and techniques as well as having limited capacity for multiple opponents.

II -Makashi, which is still one of the best forms to employ against another lightsaber user.

Makashi represents a case of crippling over specialization, one no force user could afford when participating in the larger events of the galaxy. Even by the end of the Old Sith Wars Makashi had largely been supplanted by Ataru and Shien/Djem-So, the last of which virtually rendered Makashi completely obsolete. Djem-So was widely nodded as the death call of Makashi, an offensive dueling form that accounted for blasters and use of the force in saber combat, and when used properly rendered Makashi easily defeated (which again, read the lore you'd know this. Far as I can tell you're not even reading the Wookiepedia articles you keep telling me to read, cause this info is there). The only thing Makashi offered over it was better mobility, which most Djem-So practitioners made up for with cross training in Ataru. Something easily done since Forms IV and V were developed side by side and had a lot of interchangeability.

Granted, this is completely ignoring the innate silliness of this lore. If anything the basic stance of Makashi would seem to make it one of the best for deflecting blaster bolts. It's based on European fencing, which is all about parrying, blocking, countering and foot work. Likely this is what happens when nerds who've never practiced the martial arts attempt to write some into existence XD EDIT: or a simple explanation for why Form II is so rarely presented in any Star Wars content that didn't care for how much sense it made. But the lore is the lore and we're stuck with it.

why specialize in duelling if everyone else is shooting you?

Why specialize in a form with no answer to blaster when 50% of the people you'll fight are using them? And that's just SWTOR's PvP scene The trash mobs by and large use blasters over sabers.

See, you're not the only one who reads stuff, so get off your high horse.

It's not even close to a high horse to point our your knowledge of the lore appears limited for someone who refuses to play a game on the grounds of lore. I mean seriously. You linked the article, maybe you should read it?

However, the greatest flaw of the Makashi system of combat was its inability to generate kinetic energy in it's application; the focus on precision and blade control hampered an adherent's ability to generate momentum in both offensive and defensive maneuvers. This meant that a duelist who possessed a sufficient level of physical strength could potentially overwhelm a Makashi practitioner, shunting aside strikes from the form's precision offense and simply bashing through it's evasive, footwork-oriented defense. This lack of physical force left Makashi practitioners vulnerable to duelists utilizing more contemporary forms, which emphasized power and brute strength. This weakness was especially pronounced against practitioners of the Djem So variant of Form V, as the style was based almost entirely around fast, strength-oriented swordplay.

Furthermore, I own a stack this high of games waiting for me to play them; so tell me again how much I whine about an MMO that I have no intention or need to reinstall anytime in the near future.

Your the one who keeps coming into a thread to tell us how much you hate a game you don't play for silly reasons.

You nerd to learn to accept criticism if you assumed I hate the game: I hate it so much that I played through the sith warrior story twice, just because I loved it.
The story is good, expecially the imperial agent story, but of you think the game is perfect, you're simply wrong. Don't lash back to me for pointing that out.

Vetril wrote:
You nerd to learn to accept criticism if you assumed I hate the game: I hate it so much that I played through the sith warrior story twice, just because I loved it.
The story is good, expecially the imperial agent story, but of you think the game is perfect, you're simply wrong. Don't lash back to me for pointing that out.

I never said the game was perfect (never even called it good). If you don't want shoddy criticism pointed out to you than get better criticisms.

The only reason I even bothered to respond to your posts was because I found your whole stint about the lack of Makashi so stupid I had to see how far you'd dig the hole

 LordofHats wrote:
While I wouldn't say the story line's vary drastically, yes. Your choices will effect certain things, some classes more than others. The biggest chances become apparent towards the end of the story lines where Dark Side and Light Side options end up producing rather varying results for the endings.

It's standard Bioware fare kind of stuff.

It also only really makes a difference while leveling as there are a few Light/Dark side only items and relics up to 50ish require it. After a point it doesn't matter mechanically as there are no0 restrictions. You get an achievement and legacy ability (that I pretty much never use) on all characters for maxing out one or the other once.

You can also change the way your character looks with enough DS points, if you have that option enabled, which some go for. I'm slightly disappointed that there isn't a similar option for Light Side points.

Really the only decisions I think that players should be aware of is in the Warriors story line. Romancing Jaesa is not an option if you don't turn her to the Dark Side, something that requires certain choices (somewhat) to be done earlier in the game. I don't think any of the Bounty Hunter's choices really matter. Yeah, it's harder to romance Mako as a Dark Side bounty hunter, but you can just go DA:O and give her a whole bunch of gifts and she'll forgive all the innocents you've killed XD EDIT: Though now that I think of it, I think certain Light Side options need to be taken to romance Ashara, and one Dark Side choice to romance Kira. But those choices were plainly obvious when they were presented to me.

Beyond that though other than items there's not that much that changes until the endings and I don't think you need to play Dark Side the whole game to see the 'Dark Side Ending.' Just make that choice at the end. The only class where your end of the game alignment matters I think is the Inquisitor and only because you get a different name based on where you're light, dark, or neutral (which has 0 gameplay effect).


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 Psienesis wrote:
You can also change the way your character looks with enough DS points, if you have that option enabled, which some go for. I'm slightly disappointed that there isn't a similar option for Light Side points.

Haven't you read Tolkein? Everyone knows being light side makes you pretty

I forgot about the visualization optional change. My Jugger is full on Dark Side and has the whole pale skin, red eyes, and veins popping out thing going on. Really the only Dark Siders I have are the Juggernaut and Assassin as everyone else is either all Lightside or neutral. My Agent was to much of a man of honor to be Darkside. His muttonchops wouldn't allow such a thing.

Its odd to me, because I found the Light Side far funner on Sith side (loved Light Side Inquisitor), and Dark Side funner on Republic side. Though it's probably helped that the Republic storyline's varied from bad to omfgwtf wrote the Trooper dialogue?! Never before has Jennifer Hale's talent been so wasted as the Trooper storyline XD Needed the evil douchebaggery to keep it interesting.

 LordofHats wrote:
The only reason I even bothered to respond to your posts was because I found your whole stint about the lack of Makashi so stupid I had to see how far you'd dig the hole

Way to miss my point.

Vetril wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:
The only reason I even bothered to respond to your posts was because I found your whole stint about the lack of Makashi so stupid I had to see how far you'd dig the hole

Way to miss my point.

Your entire point was that the game is too limiting because you want to be able to have access to every form as a Jedi.

Allow me to reiterate, THAT ISN'T HOW JEDI WORK. Time and time again, we have explained why the game is set the way it is, and as someone who is Oh-so-familiar with the Lore(I've read the EU books, even though they're not canon anymore. As well as having played every PnP RPG Star Wars had to date.), I can tell you that the game is correctly limiting from a lore, and gameplay perspective.

The player character is not a super-Jedi.The player Jedi isn't as powerful as Revan, who isn't skilled enough to master more than one school of lightsaber conflict. Furthermore, the player characters are spawned at a time during which Jedi are taught the schools of combat that best fit the war, and from a class perspective, giving the BH a rifle makes it far too similar to the Agent.