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So for me the main things are the no saves allowed magic (Which is becoming more needed with these stupid armies with ward saves and good magic resistance or in some cases with banners that take away most magic on a 2+ ward save. Then if you happen to be facing an all elf high cavalry army you can't 13th or cracks call em down and are forced to hit them har), magical fast cavalry units (Sounds cool but plays so dumb considering they can avoid all day and then cast spells at you. If you can't outrun them or corner them with waves of units swallowing up the board then there isn't much you can do if you have little to no shooting or average magic), another annoying thing for me is the cold-blooded rule for lizardmen and the last one i can think of i'd have to say magic needs to be re-worked completely. I know it fits the fluff but more reliable magic might be nice or at least the suggestion that at the start of each turn both players roll a die and the result of the two dice is what you both get for the phase. That said then the vampiric power to re-roll one of their power dice would suck unless the vampire could only re-roll it for his turn.

I suppose this could go into the proposed rules section but this is more rules i dislike than ones i'm trying to change.

Hard to not just go on a rant, but I'd have to say all the minus to hit mods for shooting. Basically, every shooting ever is all on 6s

Being a Lizardman player, I like cold blooded but really think Saurus should be Immune to Psychology. They're literally bred for fighting and murdering/getting murdered. Ld 8 is ok though, I can live that.

Everything in the Dwarf book (Might be getting them next though, Ha haat!) and everything in the ogre book. Move fast, hit hard, shooting AND magic?! Eff off!

Skaven cheese.

Everything in the book breaks a core rule, and is nearly impossible to combat.

The cheesy players have it down to science of about 100 slaves, 2 engineers, doom rockets, double warp lightning, and if they can fit it, plague monks and a furnace.

There goes 200 victory points right off the bat.

Thanks
Austin

HPA Abomb get back up rule. It does not need that.

Animosity, it's fluffy but the troops aren't exactly cheap enough to take a bunch of blows per turn without doing a thing.

The ally rules that nobody uses having not enough detail and also having dwarves and elves as trusted allies.

Mark of Nurgle. Debuff my WS and I'm at 6s to hit in melee, makes it nigh-impossible to get through big WoC units without munchkining it up myself.

 Redbad wrote:
Skaven cheese.
The cheesy players have it down to science of about 100 slaves, 2 engineers, doom rockets, double warp lightning, and if they can fit it, plague monks and a furnace.

Guilty as charged *hands up*
Its not that's cheesey I never understood why people think skaven are sooooo cheesey?

I think in general steadfast is something people dislike tho.

Rerollable 1+/2+. I know the counter is to ignore armor or modify the save, though iirc there's a way to get a 2+ rerollable ward. Or at least there will be for DoT with the new lore of metal spell if rumours are to be believed.

It just means only 1 out of every 36 wounds goes through and that's in the realm of ridiculous.

EDIT;
Steadfast. I get the point but I wish it wasn't so all or nothing. Like if steadfast meant you only took half the Ld penalty I think it would be fine. Currently 10 fully armored knights charge 30 guys, kill fully half of them & whelp these here peasants outnumber you by one rank so with general & bsb Rerolling Ld 10! I don't care who you are, 10 fully armored knights decimating half your unit with no casualties in return has to have some effect on morale.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
Rerollable 1+/2+. I know the counter is to ignore armor or modify the save, though iirc there's a way to get a 2+ rerollable ward. Or at least there will be for DoT with the new lore of metal spell if rumours are to be believed.

It just means only 1 out of every 36 wounds goes through and that's in the realm of ridiculous.

EDIT;
Steadfast. I get the point but I wish it wasn't so all or nothing. Like if steadfast meant you only took half the Ld penalty I think it would be fine. Currently 10 fully armored knights charge 30 guys, kill fully half of them & whelp these here peasants outnumber you by one rank so with general & bsb Rerolling Ld 10! I don't care who you are, 10 fully armored knights decimating half your unit with no casualties in return has to have some effect on morale.

On the steadfast point that was to prevent 7th editions worthless blocks of units, since a killy charger unit will utterly break units to the point where there was no point in taking soldiers except as bare minimum.

I get why, I just think it's a bit too far of a swing and I don't like it.

10 knights charge 30 footmen.

Knights score 7 kills, footmen score 0.

Knights charge + banner +7 +1 rank = 10. Footmen have banner & 2 ranks for 3. Currently under steadfast the footmen have a rerollable 10. even if the knights did 15 wounds.

I would like to see steadfast change so that Footmen lose by 7, due to steadfast they check at -4 (3.5 round up) (rerollable Ld6 thanks to general & BSB).

In my way there is a benefit to being steadfast but not a ridiculous one of "well I outnumber you by as little as 5 so I don't give a rats ass how many of us die". Under the current rules I could out kill you 50-0 & as long as you have 5 more guys than me, it doesn't have any effect on your morale. That is what I don't like about it. Just having 5 extra guys negates ANY effect of the combat res score.

Monstrous Infantry.

It's a stupid as hell rule and it needs to go away.

cannons bouncing into my flying dragon and killing the guy on top

 Kanluwen wrote:
Monstrous Infantry.

It's a stupid as hell rule and it needs to go away.

What? I'm actually quite curious as to the detail behind this one.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Monstrous Infantry.

It's a stupid as hell rule and it needs to go away.

Yeah no kidding ogres get impact hits when they charge, 3 attacks per rank and stomps as well as cause fear. Even should you attack from the flank they're still hit hitting pretty hard. Then again they're fairly expensive.

That said i hate elves much more these days. Combat avoidance armies with all this fast cavalry is just ridiculous.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Monstrous Infantry.

It's a stupid as hell rule and it needs to go away.

Just like Uniting the Elves!


But seriously. Getting rid of MI neuters ogres Fluffwise, and Gameplaywise.

Rulebook gripe

Casting/Dispel bonus based off wizard level. It practically forces you to take a level 4 if you don't want to risk being outgunned in the magic phase.

Armybook gripe

Dwarven anti-magic & "runes". "Runes" are just magic items. If it quacks, walks, and acts like a duck, then it's a duck.

Dwarven "I don't get a magic phase so neither do you" antics is uninspired and bring no depth to the game. How about something along the lines of allowing dwarves to force a miscast if they roll irresistable dispel. Now there's more strategy involved, and the risk of using all dispel dice on a single cast means you can potentially allow all other spells to go through for the remainder of that phase.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Monstrous Infantry.

It's a stupid as hell rule and it needs to go away.

Just like Uniting the Elves!


But seriously. Getting rid of MI neuters ogres Fluffwise, and Gameplaywise.

Omg uniting the elves is the worst.

Another i have on hating elves is all this ASF infinite re-rolls or going first nonsense. I was so used to it that when somebody mentioned i can strike simultaneously against his i5 guys with mine i was actually surprised because i'd been fighting elves so frequently and they have magical BS we always strike first crap.

wfr12n wrote:
Rulebook gripe

Casting/Dispel bonus based off wizard level. It practically forces you to take a level 4 if you don't want to risk being outgunned in the magic phase.

Armybook gripe

Dwarven anti-magic & "runes". "Runes" are just magic items. If it quacks, walks, and acts like a duck, then it's a duck.

Dwarven "I don't get a magic phase so neither do you" antics is uninspired and bring no depth to the game. How about something along the lines of allowing dwarves to force a miscast if they roll irresistable dispel. Now there's more strategy involved, and the risk of using all dispel dice on a single cast means you can potentially allow all other spells to go through for the remainder of that phase.

At least it makes more sense then the 40k system.

Personal gripe has to do with all da ogre stuff like everyone else states.

Still havent won with skaven so i dunno what all this cheese is about but now i want some.

@desubot: Redbad just uses low tier armies so that's why he's having trouble and also some factions are harder to fight with some factions.

If you want pain face any of the elf factions. If wood elves wanted to they could out-range every gunline in the game. Even jezzails can be moved up to and fired at. All i'm saying is 30" bows with specialty arrows up the butt and magical elf cavalry that can run away forever. Elves basically also counter all of our initiative test or die spells or abilities. Trueflight arrows for instance are a pain considering they avoid all negative modifiers. An elf with trueflight arrows can shoot through a forest, at long range, into a tower, with the storm banner active and howling warpgale active. Normally that would be a -6 modifier to BS shooting but they can do it just fine with no penalty. You know what and add shadow magnet trinket onto that unit and it's a -7 to BS modifiers usually but it still won't effect trueflight arrows.

13th spell only works on infantry so high elves will take knights with BotWD which is pretty much effective against everything skaven have except the doomwheel impact hits, abomination without warpstone spikes (don't ever take the spikes for this reason) and maybe a flank with rat ogres after their unit charges. Seriously just about every weapon you can have that's magical is negated so heroes can't do jack for the most part, all skaven shooting is magical (with the exception of crappy slings which are strength 3 and at best poisoned), all our initiative checks barely effect elves, 13th does nothing, censer bearers do nothing because our freaking flails are magical weapons and i think even the furnace is a magic weapon.

Dark elves have warlocks which are magical cavalry that can actually handle themselves ok in combat. I think it's also saying something that i saw a tournament level player that was good lose with his bretonnia against a dark elf player that was much less experienced because of warlocks. He had no real way to handle them and when his couple ways to handle them died it was just a matter of running around his knights all day and casting magic. It wasn't even hard it was sad to see. Perhaps he should've had more magic himself or something.

Sisters of thorn are also similar in ways to warlocks but you often see them as a character bunker and if somebody takes a magic resistance on anything they instantly get their normal 4+ ward save boosted to a 2+ ward save vs magic. You pretty much can't out move fast cavalry and your best real hope is to surround them and esp. just move across the board in a horde of bodies. Even then if you so much as hit one forest with the majority of your models or a river you will lose all of your steadfast and ranks respectively which skaven need.

----------

So basically if you face a fast cavalry list with magical elf cavalry in there i have no sympathy for you if you lose to an army such as skaven or similar. For dwarves and empire their biggest hope is usually their war machines which could handle the magical elf cavalry ok and then gyrocopters and pistoliers or similar. For other armies it's very hard to deal with this magical elf cavalry because they are fast and even when they flee if they should rally they'll be able to make a free move and do all their crap over again (feigned flight).

I feel sorry for the melee armies that have to deal with this crap. Undead don't have to worry about steadfast going away due to forests but say i'm running an elite melee army like warriors of chaos, daemons or even something like beastmen. What do i even do since i have no shooting? I can't surround the enemy too easily either since my army is elite. In the end i just have to pray magic and units like the daemon prince can deal with it.

This is all considering elves just off the bat. There's a lot more crap dark elves and wood elves can do when they actually plan for enemies to try countering them well. At the very least when facing elf combat avoidance armies use magic missile spam like warp lightning with warpstone tokens on each warlock. Each warlock can substitute a spell for warp lightning and you should do it.

So i dunno i just find magical elf cavalry to be interesting but in the end something which turned out infinitely dumber to face than anything else.

1. Steadfast needs to die under its current incarnation.
My idea for bringing it more down to earth: Units that are Steadfast count as Stubborn, but may not make use of the General's IP or BSB's Hold Your Ground rules. Still good as most units will have Ld7-9, but it's no longer nearly fool proof when turtling around the General/main flag.

2. Cannons ARE NOT! laser beams!!!
Make them roll to-hit on BS. Or else make them scatter. Or perhaps a set to-hit roll... just freaking something to reign them in.
Combining the monster + rider profiles is likely a decent way to bring dragons et all back to the forefront of armies, but if that happens, then Greater Daemons will need a significant boost of their own to avoid becoming shelf decorations.

3. Magic Phase needs to scale.
12 dice is too much in small games of 1250 and under. It's a pretty good cap for 1500 through 2k games, but once you hit 2.4/2.5k and especially come 3K+, you really need more dice.

4. Banner of the No-skill-required Dragon.
Stupidest magic item since the 5th edition version of the Forbidden Rod.
It's not that it's completely unbeatable, but games against it are never fun, especially for DoC as it essentially forces one to simply play a boring game of pure avoidance. (or else bring a tailored list to crush the Banner unit... *cough*cacochoir*cough*)

5. ASF in it's current incarnation.
Honestly, to gain the re-rolls, you should be required to have a higher initiative than what you're fighting. Elves will still be arrogant b******* to pretty much all average level units, but the change would mean that other elites can put up more of a fight, especially against the elves own elites.

6. Reign of Comedy table.
BotWD is easily the most OTT/broken item in the game. This is the outright more idiot rule in the game that serves no real purpose other than 'random!' because... 'reasons'.
I totally enjoy seeing my 500+pts Greater Daemon explode in turn 2... and it's always riveting action when I suddenly lose half my saves. Meanwhile, my opponents just love watching me spending 15+ minutes rolling random dice plus scattering templates everywhere that eventually add up to maybe 5 dudes actually dying...
This whole table is just so badly implemented. Plus it tends to screw the Daemon player over harder than opponents, since the bad rolls easily outweigh the good rolls. (thanks to both essentially losing your Magic phase for a turn due to lack of power dice + the added bad effect itself)

I dunno steadfast is pretty much the only thing holding up rats atm no?

 thedarkavenger wrote:
HPA Abomb get back up rule. It does not need that.

Yup. That's mine too.


If you get rid of the "Get Back Up" whatever its called, i have no problem with HPA. That single f'ing rule makes me hate that model with no limit. I hope it gets Hydra treatment with the new codex, whenever that is.


A close second is more a side effect of the cannon rules, but cannon shot douchebaggery in general really grinds my gears. I hope that cannons change in 9th, i really do.

Magic phase should be a little more reliable. Even 3d6 dice rolled minus the lowest result is a better table than what we have.

Agreed on ASF being dumb currently and same initiative not allowing them re-rolls to hit.

Steadfast isn't always as bad as people make it out to be. It just requires a spam unit of rank and file and a hitty unit to beat the other spam unit or alternatively you can go into a forest and force them to come at you. Should they even get half their guys in the forest they lose steadfast. Even if that doesn't happen you can kill enough so that the majority of their models in that unit are now in the forest. Steadfast is then gone simple as that or at least in theory.

Also cannons holy crap it's more the fact they can kill both the large target and the rider not just different infantry types in a unit. Also for people that say skaven cannons are always better i wouldn't say that's always true. Our strength is variable, we don't get re-rolls from engineers, we can't add runes to ours and in cannon vs cannon duels we usually lose (not that you should be shooting at other cannons with skaven cannons).

BotWD is lame as you say. I already stated it's almost as effective against the skaven as it is with daemons.

I imagine reign of chaos is pretty bad. It nearly wiped out my opponent's khorne army in one game. Pretty freaking stupid to watch and it felt unsatisfying to beat him that way.

-------

@Experiment626: Btw unrelated but did you want that game of warhammer fantasy on universal battle? Apparently we can talk about vassal and such on this forum. So far i've played cthulu is spy and i'm trying to set up a game with thedarkavenger. I sent a pm but heard no response whereas everybody else has.

Cannons need to be more balanced. Perhaps a mechanism that balances the accuracy of the cannon with its strength.

Personally I feel if you make cannons BS-based, then it's basically a STR 10 bolthrower.

wfr12n wrote:
Cannons need to be more balanced. Perhaps a mechanism that balances the accuracy of the cannon with its strength.

Personally I feel if you make cannons BS-based, then it's basically a STR 10 bolthrower.

That's not exactly a bad thing since it does d6 wounds anyway. Large targets can't exactly hide in buildings anyway.

That said what's the case then for misfires and random scattering. That said cannons almost always seem to hit. Far more than they should.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
@desubot: Redbad just uses low tier armies so that's why he's having trouble and also some factions are harder to fight with some factions.

I do play a low tier army, but I frequently win against elves (of all varieties), ogres, undead, and WOC... Skaven are the tough ones for me because their ranged attacks shut down my knights like nothing else, and the 13th trolls my M@A, until I have nothing left.
I think it's just a bad line up.
I do win occasionally, but it's not very often.

Trebs help though
Thanks
Austin

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

wfr12n wrote:
Cannons need to be more balanced. Perhaps a mechanism that balances the accuracy of the cannon with its strength.

Personally I feel if you make cannons BS-based, then it's basically a STR 10 bolthrower.

That's not exactly a bad thing since it does d6 wounds anyway. Large targets can't exactly hide in buildings anyway.

That said what's the case then for misfires and random scattering. That said cannons almost always seem to hit. Far more than they should.

I think cannons just need to be d3 wounds instead of d6. People hate when I one shot their chaos chariots lol

Terrorgheist and banshee screams. They don't wound like normal meaning monster and isolataed generals can easily be sniped, they ignore armor, and can also do it into combat.

 Warptide wrote:
Terrorgheist and banshee screams. They don't wound like normal meaning monster and isolataed generals can easily be sniped, they ignore armor, and can also do it into combat.

ANYTHING THAT SHOOTS INTO COMBAT IS EVIL

Thanks
Austin