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It's a fun game I have played 5 games so far. It's like any game there are only 2 issues I've had so far. Play 40k or fantasy you WILL have rules problems. It's a sound system. An errata will make a couple problems go away. Just like any game.

Does PB even do Errata ?

They'll get on it right after wave 2.

Asterios wrote:
Does PB even do Errata ?

RPGs, Palladium's usual stock in trade, tend not to need it as you can house-rule everything as needed, and the GM is the final arbiter. This new game can't work that way, though. So we'll see if PB is smart enough to realize that and get out any fixes that are needed.

But if it does happen, it probably won't be until after all of the shipments are sent.

Eumerin wrote:

Asterios wrote:
Does PB even do Errata ?

RPGs, Palladium's usual stock in trade, tend not to need it as you can house-rule everything as needed, and the GM is the final arbiter.

Same as basically every other RPG ever, but those other ones see fit to publish errata files.

 Albertorius wrote:

Eumerin wrote:

Asterios wrote:
Does PB even do Errata ?

RPGs, Palladium's usual stock in trade, tend not to need it as you can house-rule everything as needed, and the GM is the final arbiter.

Same as basically every other RPG ever, but those other ones see fit to publish errata files.

A couple of points -

Palladium's RPGs are pre-internet, published in an unrevised format for decades. RPGs may have errata now, but no one did back then. It wasn't a big deal, and players would work something out.

Wargames *did* print errata back then, as it was understood that house rules weren't a good idea for those kinds of games. Getting it was trickier than it is now, as you were forced to use snail mail or look for it bundled in a recently printed Starfleet Battles box. But the errata did exist for those games.

Eumerin wrote:
A couple of points -

Palladium's RPGs are pre-internet, published in an unrevised format for decades. RPGs may have errata now, but no one did back then. It wasn't a big deal, and players would work something out.

Wargames *did* print errata back then, as it was understood that house rules weren't a good idea for those kinds of games. Getting it was trickier than it is now, as you were forced to use snail mail or look for it bundled in a recently printed Starfleet Battles box. But the errata did exist for those games.

Hey, look! Errata files for AD&D, from which Palladium's system is derived!

http://web.archive.org/web/20080324195456/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads

Look under "classic errata": those are compilings of erratas from the old TSR era.

Also, Palladium's system might be pre-internet... but they are still selling it, and they could have been arsed to do erratas for it. They just haven't bothered.

 Albertorius wrote:

Eumerin wrote:
A couple of points -

Palladium's RPGs are pre-internet, published in an unrevised format for decades. RPGs may have errata now, but no one did back then. It wasn't a big deal, and players would work something out.

Wargames *did* print errata back then, as it was understood that house rules weren't a good idea for those kinds of games. Getting it was trickier than it is now, as you were forced to use snail mail or look for it bundled in a recently printed Starfleet Battles box. But the errata did exist for those games.

Hey, look! Errata files for AD&D, from which Palladium's system is derived!

http://web.archive.org/web/20080324195456/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads

Look under "classic errata": those are compilings of erratas from the old TSR era.

They are from "a" TSR period. Specifically, they all appear to be from 2nd Edition. There's nothing from the earlier stuff in there.

Also, since TSR had an in-house periodical (i.e. Dragon Magazine), it had a method of distributing fixes and errata to customers that wasn't available to anyone else.

OK, what about D&D 3E? Did anybody do errata for that? Does that count as pre-Internet?

Realistically, RIFTS etc have been around for ages, and Palladium could have done errata. Palladium has (had?) an in-house magazine (the Rifter), like pretty much every other pre-Internet publisher. There isn't any excuse other than laziness.

Eumerin wrote:
They are from "a" TSR period. Specifically, they all appear to be from 2nd Edition. There's nothing from the earlier stuff in there.

No, there isn't. Because that was Wizard's site and the first match I got. I could find more, but that was just an example. Call of Cthulhu, to name one.

Also, since TSR had an in-house periodical (i.e. Dragon Magazine), it had a method of distributing fixes and errata to customers that wasn't available to anyone else.

Rifter? The in-house Palladium periodical?

Anyway, the point is that, even if Palladium has been around for a long time and all that... they are still here. And they still don't seem to see fit to publish errata for their books.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
OK, what about D&D 3E? Did anybody do errata for that? Does that count as pre-Internet?

Yeah, Wizards did loads of errata for that one.

I would just like to point out that palladium products are pre WWW and not pre internet. I (and others) were on the internet before rifts even existed.

The rifter would be the place to put errata anyway, there is szero excuse for them to not do it. They just dont care about the rules.

It's also worth keeping in mind that not having new versions (and presumably updates to worry about) isn't a bug, they see it as a feature.

They did an 'updated' version a few years back, though I believe it was a touch controversial (or so I've gathered in perusing the forums years after the fact), and they DO totally have a page for missing content and perhaps a few errata;

http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/cuttingroom/

Though it's kind of anemic.

Actually what PB does, is if you want the rule changes you have to buy the new book, they did this with the Robotech RPG original game book which had a couple editions the first one had some mistakes and the 2nd. one corrected those mistakes while making a whole new slew of new mistakes.

not too mention why do they have to refer to the 1st. ed. changes in the 2nd. ed. by telling us, uh we goofed in 1st. ed. and made this change here.

Robotech is the exception for Palladium, not the rule.

They literally take pride in not doing a re-release of Rifts, and that books from three decades ago are (theoretically) compatible with their most recent releases.

Honestly I was surprised they even did a revision to Robotech, but rumour had it HG basically said "look, go back and revise this gak".

With HG now actually trying apparently to match the original japanese names and stats, there is no way Palladium could just rerelease the old stuff again.

Up date to the standard set in the Tactic game itself

What rules system doesn't have issues? 40K is incredibly popular and played competitively and is filled with issues.
That doesn't stop people from enjoying it. When I played 40K we house-ruled it to death.
I'm sure we'll see errata. In the meantime, most of use can manage to come up with reasonable house rules with our play group and on line community.

Because if anything, this project has inspired confidence that Palladium is on the ball and will embrace change in a constructive and timely fashion.

:-P

Look, nobody sensible is expecting perfection.

And yes, despite "starting shipping!" three and a half months ago, it really has just started getting into people's hands (retail and backers alike) in the last month or so.

Thus, from both sides; between rule reading, assembly and test game time, it's still very early, but it's not unreasonable to express some concern/doubt regarding ongoing support given the long, circuitous path that it's taken us to get here.

People can totally point at minis as say "omg it's new, give them a break!" and it can be argued how much or little their experience might count.

But it is not an apples to oranges comparison to point out their lack of RPG updating efforts.

Hopefully they do better, but they're long past getting the benefit of the doubt from some folks here.

 n815e wrote:
What rules system doesn't have issues? 40K is incredibly popular and played competitively and is filled with issues.
That doesn't stop people from enjoying it. When I played 40K we house-ruled it to death.
I'm sure we'll see errata. In the meantime, most of use can manage to come up with reasonable house rules with our play group and on line community.

oh maybe because 40K puts out Errata when problems pop up unlike PB who doesn't put out Errata and basically tells people, "get lost" and problem with house rules, they are not applicable in a tournament atmosphere.

Also you say we'll see errata for the game, so I assume you have prior experience with PB putting out Errata that you can point to? since to assume PB will do something cause it is right is erroneous especially if they have never done that before, so curious where this evidence of PB putting out Errata is?

Rick,

GW puts out errata, but it takes time and, of course, frequently raises more questions than it answers.
RRT has just hit the street. They are still sending the product out to people.

This is not a rpg. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. I realize that you literally spend your every waking hour (for the past year and a half) spewing negativity all over this, but most of us are not obsessively hating on Palladium.

A need for some rules clarifications for a newly released game is present in every single game system. I bring up 40K due to its popularity, it's constant need for revision/clarification and yet, despite this, it is still played in tournaments.
Rational people understand that games have flaws and gamers manage to work out solutions amongst themselves. This one seems to have relatively minor ones, certainly nothing that should dissuade people who are interested in trying it out.

 n815e wrote:
Rick,

GW puts out errata, but it takes time and, of course, frequently raises more questions than it answers.
RRT has just hit the street. They are still sending the product out to people.

This is not a rpg. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. I realize that you literally spend your every waking hour (for the past year and a half) spewing negativity all over this, but most of us are not obsessively hating on Palladium.

A need for some rules clarifications for a newly released game is present in every single game system. I bring up 40K due to its popularity, it's constant need for revision/clarification and yet, despite this, it is still played in tournaments.
Rational people understand that games have flaws and gamers manage to work out solutions amongst themselves. This one seems to have relatively minor ones, certainly nothing that should dissuade people who are interested in trying it out.

you know why 40K is played? because it is supported, PB has a track record of not supporting their product, they are already treating this game like a RPG, and I repeat where, does PB have any past record of putting out Errata for any of their games? TSR put out errata for D&D yet PB does not understand the concept of Errata, furthermore they do not understand the concept of the internet either.

Hell where is your evidence PB even supports any of their games? PB has a habit of running thru MA's because PB does not support their product.

and ever consider PB deserves the negativity? or are you one of those who believes it was ok for PB to lie to the RoW backers and ship product to pre-orders and retail before those backers get their product, especially considering they are now seeing the product in stores around them and PB hasn't even mailed theirs yet. and while your not obsessively hating on PB you are obsessively kissing their behinds, PB is treating this game as a RPG, not a miniatures game like it should be, some of PB's own MA's who will be running the games have even said they will run it as an RPG game, not a miniatures game. and the one thing that will and has already turn away new players is the assembly of the minis.

Rick, there are many reasons why 40K gets played, but you are skirting the point that it gets played (competitively, even) despite its flaws and that people enjoy it even if it has problems.

Where does PB support its games? I am not a PB customer besides RRT, however anyone can see they release plenty of supplements to their rules and have a newsletter. In the rpg world, that is support.

and ever consider PB deserves the negativity?

and while your not obsessively hating on PB you are obsessively kissing their behinds

There have been problems.
That does not mean that every thing is a problem.
For you, there is no in between. If someone isn't actively hating PB, then they are a fanboi.

ome of PB's own MA's who will be running the games have even said they will run it as an RPG game

And why not? It has a rules section with info on how it can be used in conjunction with their rpg. I sometimes run narrative campaigns in miniatures gaming. They are fun and rpg-like. Not everyone plays miniatures games as tournament competitions.

. and the one thing that will and has already turn away new players is the assembly of the minis

Not every game is for every person. This one is going to be mainly for people who don't mind having to (or even like to) build models.

I'm not arguing with you because I think it makes a difference in your opinion. I'm arguing with you because people should realize that your negativity spam is not representative of everyone's opinion.

 n815e wrote:
Rick, there are many reasons why 40K gets played, but you are skirting the point that it gets played (competitively, even) despite its flaws and that people enjoy it even if it has problems.

Where does PB support its games? I am not a PB customer besides RRT, however anyone can see they release plenty of supplements to their rules and have a newsletter. In the rpg world, that is support.

PB puts out a handful of books and mags (mostly their Rifter's and 1-3 books) and yet they do not publish Errata in their Rifter's mag, the perfect medium to do so, when I had their Robotech RPG game I had to wait for them to do a new 2nd. edition and buy that book to get fixed rules, while they made more mistakes, you want errata for PB products you will pay for it. give you an idea of how PB does no support, until this KS came out I didn't even think PB was around, mainly because nobody around me sells their product, can find several places that sell GW products, even comic book stores, but nobody who sells PB products except for the occasional old RPG books.

and ever consider PB deserves the negativity?

and while your not obsessively hating on PB you are obsessively kissing their behinds

There have been problems.
That does not mean that every thing is a problem.
For you, there is no in between. If someone isn't actively hating PB, then they are a fanboi.

There is no in between when PB goes out of their way to lie to their backers and do it with smiles on their faces saying everything is coming up rainbows.

one of PB's own MA's who will be running the games have even said they will run it as an RPG game

And why not? It has a rules section with info on how it can be used in conjunction with their rpg. I sometimes run narrative campaigns in miniatures gaming. They are fun and rpg-like. Not everyone plays miniatures games as tournament competitions.

then your not playing a miniatures game, your playing an RPG PB needs to attract miniature players not RPGers since it is miniature players who spend lots of money building armies.

. and the one thing that will and has already turn away new players is the assembly of the minis

Not every game is for every person. This one is going to be mainly for people who don't mind having to (or even like to) build models.

I'm not arguing with you because I think it makes a difference in your opinion. I'm arguing with you because people should realize that your negativity spam is not representative of everyone's opinion.

problem is PB needs to attract new players, how do you expect them to do that if the game is not easy to assemble, GW attracts new players with quality easy to assemble minis, PB missed the boat on that one.

Furthermore your right my responses are not representative of everyone, but lately it is the majority opinion. most are at the point of considering this game DoA.

but lately it is the majority opinion. most are at the point of considering this game DoA.

Posting about it dozens of times a day doesn't make your opinion the majority. Making a forum so hostile to those who have differing opinions to yours that people stop posting there does not make your opinion the majority.
There were over five thousand backers. A handful or two of people does not make a majority. All the ill wishing, all the declarations of DoA that you've made long before it had even arrived, all your efforts to tear this thing down out of bitterness because you didn't get your toys in October of 2013 isn't going to change what other people think of it.

There is no in between

Thanks for confirming.

then your not playing a miniatures game, your playing an RPG PB needs to attract miniature players not RPGers since it is miniature players who spend lots of money building armies.

Some people use this for something other than miniatures gaming.
That does not mean that this isn't a miniatures game.
It's not an either/or situation.
Some people use 40K models in their rpg. That doesn't make 40K a rpg. Some people use their 40K models to play Inquisitor or Necromunda. That doesn't make 40K a rpg, either.

problem is PB needs to attract new players, how do you expect them to do that if the game is not easy to assemble, GW attracts new players with quality easy to assemble minis

I played 40K for ten years and recall many happy days building models.
However, as I wrote, not every game is for every person. Trying to insist it should be something it isn't because it wasn't what you wanted is wasted time. Some people wanted this to be a board game. Some wanted this to be a pre-painted game. It's not for them, either. It is what it is and people who like this type of thing will buy it. All the hand-wringing in the world is not going to change it. All the anger and the angst thrown into the interwebs isn't going to change it.

Asterios wrote:

 n815e wrote:
Rick, there are many reasons why 40K gets played, but you are skirting the point that it gets played (competitively, even) despite its flaws and that people enjoy it even if it has problems.

. and the one thing that will and has already turn away new players is the assembly of the minis

Not every game is for every person. This one is going to be mainly for people who don't mind having to (or even like to) build models.

problem is PB needs to attract new players, how do you expect them to do that if the game is not easy to assemble, GW attracts new players with quality easy to assemble minis,

Needing to assemble models is something of a secondary issue. If I want a game to attract players, I think the key things are:
1. clean and simple rules, then
2. good-looking models, finally
3. pre-built / easy-build models.

Players can get around bad and difficult models if the actual gameplay is compelling, a good mix of strategy and/or randomness.

And it's not like metal GW or Infinity or Malifaux are particularly easy to build. But they still get played beacuse the models look great and the rules are acceptable.

But a game with arcane rules and ugly models generally won't take off, even if the models are preassembled.

 n815e wrote:

but lately it is the majority opinion. most are at the point of considering this game DoA.

Posting about it dozens of times a day doesn't make your opinion the majority. Making a forum so hostile to those who have differing opinions to yours that people stop posting there does not make your opinion the majority.
There were over five thousand backers. A handful or two of people does not make a majority. All the ill wishing, all the declarations of DoA that you've made long before it had even arrived, all your efforts to tear this thing down out of bitterness because you didn't get your toys in October of 2013 isn't going to change what other people think of it.

well then how about letting people here make their minds up if what I say is true or not, they can go over to the KS forums and count all the disgruntled backers, and see if its the handful or two you speak of, also they can see if there are even more supporters, I'm willing to make my wager on that, are you?

There is no in between

then your not playing a miniatures game, your playing an RPG PB needs to attract miniature players not RPGers since it is miniature players who spend lots of money building armies.

Some people use this for something other than miniatures gaming.
That does not mean that this isn't a miniatures game.
It's not an either/or situation.
Some people use 40K models in their rpg. That doesn't make 40K a rpg. Some people use their 40K models to play Inquisitor or Necromunda. That doesn't make 40K a rpg, either.

problem is PB needs to attract new players, how do you expect them to do that if the game is not easy to assemble, GW attracts new players with quality easy to assemble minis

40K has both an RPG game and a miniatures game, furthermore it has models explicitely for those games people will get, thought you played 40K and should know this ?

I played 40K for ten years and recall many happy days building models.
However, as I wrote, not every game is for every person. Trying to insist it should be something it isn't because it wasn't what you wanted is wasted time. Some people wanted this to be a board game. Some wanted this to be a pre-painted game. It's not for them, either. It is what it is and people who like this type of thing will buy it. All the hand-wringing in the world is not going to change it. All the anger and the angst thrown into the interwebs isn't going to change it.

No you keep failing to realize, that one of the biggest complaints is the assembly of said minis, they should have been made easier they have way too many pieces and many are fiddly and break just trying to get them off the sprue, they average anywhere from 15 - 20 pieces per model not counting the base, and yet very few if any of the 40K models of the same size even have that many pieces. look at the Deathwing Knight it consists of 10 pieces counting the base and that figure is about as high as the uedf figs, and you say only a handful are complaining, more like only a handful or 2 are not complaining and that is evident by the fact the only ones posting positively are the same handful of people, just to send your argument back on you, ya know.

The only way this game could survive and grow is if it is marketed as a miniatures game, since if not only the Battle Tech players will be buying it for the unseen mechs, other then that RPGers only need a handful of models, and the fact PB is charging GW prices for vastly inferior product is not a good selling point either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 n815e wrote:
Rick, there are many reasons why 40K gets played, but you are skirting the point that it gets played (competitively, even) despite its flaws and that people enjoy it even if it has problems.

. and the one thing that will and has already turn away new players is the assembly of the minis

Not every game is for every person. This one is going to be mainly for people who don't mind having to (or even like to) build models.

problem is PB needs to attract new players, how do you expect them to do that if the game is not easy to assemble, GW attracts new players with quality easy to assemble minis,

Needing to assemble models is something of a secondary issue. If I want a game to attract players, I think the key things are:
1. clean and simple rules, then
2. good-looking models, finally
3. pre-built / easy-build models.

Players can get around bad and difficult models if the actual gameplay is compelling, a good mix of strategy and/or randomness.

And it's not like metal GW or Infinity or Malifaux are particularly easy to build. But they still get played beacuse the models look great and the rules are acceptable.

But a game with arcane rules and ugly models generally won't take off, even if the models are preassembled.

Problem is the rules are not so simple, not necessarily tough, but not so easy, and definitely need some tweaking, so far some reports coming in of the Zentraedi being at a disadvantage in the game, also another irk point with some people is how all the rules are not in the rule book but on some cards, so you have to go back and forth, and the rules involved are important game changing ones that should be in the rule book. then there is the issue with there not being able to run a full game with 2 force cards per side as the game should be played with the contents in the box, you can play some skirmishes, but that's it.

The model difficulty is seriously a factor.

I've got probably around 130 Infinity Minis, and those guys take me maybe 5-10 minutes to assemble, including cleaning what virtually non-existant lines they have.

Any of the RTT Minis (especially Valkyrie Battleoid arms!) take me upwards of 40 minutes to assemble. and I'm expected to have many, many, many more minis to play the game.

That's a major hurdle, and why people aren't trying out their kickstarters yet.

well then how about letting people here make their minds up if what I say is true or not, they can go over to the KS forums and count all the disgruntled backers, and see if its the handful or two you speak of, also they can see if there are even more supporters

They can go to the KS comments and view the handful of disgruntled people that post there. They can view your nonstop posting there. They can view how you and Jorel harass people that post opinions different to yours, to the point that almost nobody posts there any longer because the constant stream of negativity and arguing is not worth the trouble. Only those who also post negative opinions are free from your harassment and are encouraged to continue posting.

You keep thinking that having the loudest voice means you represent all of us.

You have spent over a year trying to tear this thing down out of bitterness because your toys weren't delivered to you in October 2013.

40K has both an RPG game and a miniatures game,

And Robotech doesn't?

No you keep failing to realize, that one of the biggest complaints is the assembly of said minis,

That doesn't address what I wrote in any meaningful way.

However, as I wrote, not every game is for every person. Trying to insist it should be something it isn't because it wasn't what you wanted is wasted time. Some people wanted this to be a board game. Some wanted this to be a pre-painted game. It's not for them, either. It is what it is and people who like this type of thing will buy it. All the hand-wringing in the world is not going to change it. All the anger and the angst thrown into the interwebs isn't going to change it.

Don't bother responding to this unless you have something new to write. I've spent the last year reading your repetitious posts of anger so I'm well aware of what you already have to say.

 Killionaire wrote:
The model difficulty is seriously a factor.

I've got probably around 130 Infinity Minis, and those guys take me maybe 5-10 minutes to assemble, including cleaning what virtually non-existant lines they have.

Any of the RTT Minis (especially Valkyrie Battleoid arms!) take me upwards of 40 minutes to assemble. and I'm expected to have many, many, many more minis to play the game.

That's a major hurdle, and why people aren't trying out their kickstarters yet.

It's the same for me. Those bleeping arms take forever to get right. At least the legs can be modified easy enough. I've already modified the few that I've built. Including the guardian modes.

 n815e wrote:

well then how about letting people here make their minds up if what I say is true or not, they can go over to the KS forums and count all the disgruntled backers, and see if its the handful or two you speak of, also they can see if there are even more supporters

They can go to the KS comments and view the handful of disgruntled people that post there. They can view your nonstop posting there. They can view how you and Jorel harass people that post opinions different to yours, to the point that almost nobody posts there any longer because the constant stream of negativity and arguing is not worth the trouble. Only those who also post negative opinions are free from your harassment and are encouraged to continue posting.

You keep thinking that having the loudest voice means you represent all of us.

You have spent over a year trying to tear this thing down out of bitterness because your toys weren't delivered to you in October 2013.

40K has both an RPG game and a miniatures game,

And Robotech doesn't?

No you keep failing to realize, that one of the biggest complaints is the assembly of said minis,

That doesn't address what I wrote in any meaningful way.

However, as I wrote, not every game is for every person. Trying to insist it should be something it isn't because it wasn't what you wanted is wasted time. Some people wanted this to be a board game. Some wanted this to be a pre-painted game. It's not for them, either. It is what it is and people who like this type of thing will buy it. All the hand-wringing in the world is not going to change it. All the anger and the angst thrown into the interwebs isn't going to change it.

Don't bother responding to this unless you have something new to write. I've spent the last year reading your repetitious posts of anger so I'm well aware of what you already have to say.

ok you want to go by what we were promised? I have yet to see anything that was promised, the models we got looked nothing like the 3D renders that lured us into the KS in the first place, and so far you haven't responded to my points, instead you recite your tired tirade that proves nothing, other then you like wearing your rose colored glasses, especially if you seem to think i'm the only one, or me and Jorel are the only ones not happy with the game, in fact 2 people just posted about the lousy builds of the models and how they are a pain, and neither of them was me or Jorel. but then go ahead and spread your lies, doesn't bother me, and don't bother responding unless you have any true facts to say.