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2014/11/29 01:37:45
Subject: Re:SCII pro player disqualified from tournament for rape tweet, his opponent harassed as a result.
Talizvar wrote: A moment of thoughtlessness turned into another item of evidence to condemn gaming culture as a bastion of bigotry and misogyny.
[…]
Adding any more hysteria or spin to this event will only feed the trolls.
If you are going to look at my original post, you will see it is not the moment of thoughtlessness that triggered my criticism. It was the attempt to defend it as acceptable, and the subsequent attacks of Maddelisk, which are something else entirely. This “extra hysteria and spin”.
But Lynata already explained it really nicely.
Well, at least I certainly triggered some discussion with this topics.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/11/29 15:28:04
Subject: Re:SCII pro player disqualified from tournament for rape tweet, his opponent harassed as a result.
Lynata wrote: One could posit that "gamer culture" took contemporary cultural issues and, due to internet anonymity and group dynamics, gradually worsened/deepened them simply because nobody spoke up for so long that it has become accepted behaviour to some (as this thread shows).
I mean, such attitudes are obviously not unique to gamer culture, and neither did it invent these problems. In essence, "gamer culture" - or at least that which is commonly understood as such - is just yet another club house where groups of people have the opportunity to show their worst sides without perceived fear of actual consequences and receive applause for it. Exactly like the aforementioned university frats, and other such assemblies.
More like the Brovasion that occured with consoles gaining a considerable online foothold in the early 2000, gaming culture was rather friendly and polite prior to that mostly due to it took some basic intelligence to play online before then, publishers saw an untapped consumer base and focused on them. Its not a coincidence that alot of game genres died out around 2000, games becoming dumbed down and the increase of idiot "gamers" and gaming becoming a multi billion dollar industry.
A Dark Angel fell on a watcher in the Dark Shroud silently chanted Vengance on the Fallen Angels to never be Unforgiven
2014/11/29 16:09:04
Subject: Re:SCII pro player disqualified from tournament for rape tweet, his opponent harassed as a result.
Lynata wrote: One could posit that "gamer culture" took contemporary cultural issues and, due to internet anonymity and group dynamics, gradually worsened/deepened them simply because nobody spoke up for so long that it has become accepted behaviour to some (as this thread shows).
I mean, such attitudes are obviously not unique to gamer culture, and neither did it invent these problems. In essence, "gamer culture" - or at least that which is commonly understood as such - is just yet another club house where groups of people have the opportunity to show their worst sides without perceived fear of actual consequences and receive applause for it. Exactly like the aforementioned university frats, and other such assemblies.
More like the Brovasion that occured with consoles gaining a considerable online foothold in the early 2000, gaming culture was rather friendly and polite prior to that mostly due to it took some basic intelligence to play online before then, publishers saw an untapped consumer base and focused on them. Its not a coincidence that alot of game genres died out around 2000, games becoming dumbed down and the increase of idiot "gamers" and gaming becoming a multi billion dollar industry.
I want to call bull on this idea that this problem stems from a console/dubbro army that exists outside of hard ore gameing. I was on the internet before 2000 and it wasn't all that enlighten back then. (It was different, but not like sexism free.) Star craft 2 isn't a dudebro console game is maybe a good point to make here too. It's more the hard core gammers that get into problems because well it's the hard core gammers who talk about games, who hashtag, who go to cons, who read a gaming comics. The people who don't care about gameing, don't make our problems because they don't care.
I hope I explained that right.
2014/11/29 16:20:36
Subject: Re:SCII pro player disqualified from tournament for rape tweet, his opponent harassed as a result.
Lynata wrote: One could posit that "gamer culture" took contemporary cultural issues and, due to internet anonymity and group dynamics, gradually worsened/deepened them simply because nobody spoke up for so long that it has become accepted behaviour to some (as this thread shows).
I mean, such attitudes are obviously not unique to gamer culture, and neither did it invent these problems. In essence, "gamer culture" - or at least that which is commonly understood as such - is just yet another club house where groups of people have the opportunity to show their worst sides without perceived fear of actual consequences and receive applause for it. Exactly like the aforementioned university frats, and other such assemblies.
More like the Brovasion that occured with consoles gaining a considerable online foothold in the early 2000, gaming culture was rather friendly and polite prior to that mostly due to it took some basic intelligence to play online before then, publishers saw an untapped consumer base and focused on them. Its not a coincidence that alot of game genres died out around 2000, games becoming dumbed down and the increase of idiot "gamers" and gaming becoming a multi billion dollar industry.
I don't fully agree with that as I remember dealing with the ...silliness back in the 90s online and on LAN with associates. It has always been there but we allowed it to flourish by not challenging it. I don't blame the "Brovasion", as these issues were there before. I don't think a golden age ever existed.
2014/11/29 16:59:09
Subject: SCII pro player disqualified from tournament for rape tweet, his opponent harassed as a result.
I concur, there was still a large amount of harassment in those days. Hell, that's when the G.I.R.L. and "tits or gtfo" memes were born-- sexual harassment was the norm back then, too. in fact, in some ways, it's probably a little bit better these days as website admins are less likely to put up with it (now, when website admins don't put their foot down, it gets bad fast).
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/11/29 17:00:14
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/11/29 17:02:15
Subject: SCII pro player disqualified from tournament for rape tweet, his opponent harassed as a result.
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
H.B.M.C. wrote: What double standards? I'm mocking him in one post, and then mocking him in the either. That's not a double standard. That's consistency.
Ah, I assumed it would be double standards, but it appears it was 'just' mocking someone else. Carry on then, I guess?
Talizvar wrote: A moment of thoughtlessness turned into another item of evidence to condemn gaming culture as a bastion of bigotry and misogyny.
[…]
Adding any more hysteria or spin to this event will only feed the trolls.
If you are going to look at my original post, you will see it is not the moment of thoughtlessness that triggered my criticism. It was the attempt to defend it as acceptable, and the subsequent attacks of Maddelisk, which are something else entirely. This “extra hysteria and spin”.
But Lynata already explained it really nicely.
Well, at least I certainly triggered some discussion with this topics.
I guess I should have been more clear that I have no problem with most of what we discuss here in the forum, it is not as much of a witch-hunt as it can get.
I was observing attacks in general, the culprit and the victim: culprit gets jumped on and various white-knights try to defend his actions, wash, rinse, repeat.
Forum moderators are getting better at dealing with these issues as observed.
These moments have played out many times and it just may take this painful "case by case" basis to get people to think more of why they use the words they do.
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
2014/11/30 17:59:32
Subject: Re:SCII pro player disqualified from tournament for rape tweet, his opponent harassed as a result.
Lynata wrote: One could posit that "gamer culture" took contemporary cultural issues and, due to internet anonymity and group dynamics, gradually worsened/deepened them simply because nobody spoke up for so long that it has become accepted behaviour to some (as this thread shows).
I mean, such attitudes are obviously not unique to gamer culture, and neither did it invent these problems. In essence, "gamer culture" - or at least that which is commonly understood as such - is just yet another club house where groups of people have the opportunity to show their worst sides without perceived fear of actual consequences and receive applause for it. Exactly like the aforementioned university frats, and other such assemblies.
More like the Brovasion that occured with consoles gaining a considerable online foothold in the early 2000, gaming culture was rather friendly and polite prior to that mostly due to it took some basic intelligence to play online before then, publishers saw an untapped consumer base and focused on them. Its not a coincidence that alot of game genres died out around 2000, games becoming dumbed down and the increase of idiot "gamers" and gaming becoming a multi billion dollar industry.
I want to call bull on this idea that this problem stems from a console/dubbro army that exists outside of hard ore gameing. I was on the internet before 2000 and it wasn't all that enlighten back then. (It was different, but not like sexism free.) Star craft 2 isn't a dudebro console game is maybe a good point to make here too. It's more the hard core gammers that get into problems because well it's the hard core gammers who talk about games, who hashtag, who go to cons, who read a gaming comics. The people who don't care about gameing, don't make our problems because they don't care.
I hope I explained that right.
I get what he's saying to an extent. Yes, in part things worsened heavily online as the internet gained wider and wider use, and as more and more people came into gaming. But I would definitely disagree that gaming was some kind of polite utopia prior. Gaming was more insular back then. Filled with inside jokes and terms that only a small number of people really had the context to understand and it was very very sexist. It was just a lot harder to notice back then.
Used to be, gamers had a sort of "us vs the world" mentality, because gaming was not popular, it was viewed as a hobby for geeks, nerds and shut-ins (and it was), and all the geeks, nerds and shut-ins kind of took up arms against pop culture in general (because, at the time, they weren't part of it).
Then a funny thing happened: Gamers won the pop-culture war. Gaming is now one of the most-popular of pop-culture hobbies. Mention World of Warcraft, and almost anyone on the planet knows what you're talking about. Mention an Xbox or a Playstation, and just about everyone knows what it is, and probably owns one (or both) of at least 1 generation.
But a small section of the nerds, geeks and shut-ins, who have basically built a shell out of their hate for The World At Large, are unable to recognize their victory. Now that gaming is popular, they're not special. So they lash out against those they perceive are "part of the problem"... which is girls/women and minorities, in the main.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
2014/12/04 01:50:09
Subject: SCII pro player disqualified from tournament for rape tweet, his opponent harassed as a result.
What's amusing is that the apparently infamous "gamers are dead" article basically said exactly what you just said, Psienesis. That gamers won the culture war, and gaming is now mainstream. Like in my signature, gamer is dead, long live gaming.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/12/04 02:54:48
Subject: SCII pro player disqualified from tournament for rape tweet, his opponent harassed as a result.
Melissia wrote: What's amusing is that the apparently infamous "gamers are dead" article basically said exactly what you just said, Psienesis. That gamers won the culture war, and gaming is now mainstream. Like in my signature, gamer is dead, long live gaming.
It also said stuff like
It’s young men queuing with plush mushroom hats and backpacks and jutting promo poster rolls. Queuing passionately for hours, at events around the world, to see the things that marketers want them to see. To find out whether they should buy things or not. They don’t know how to dress or behave. Television cameras pan across these listless queues, and often catch the expressions of people who don’t quite know why they themselves are standing there.
These obtuse shitslingers, these wailing hyper-consumers, these childish internet-arguers -- they are not my audience. They don’t have to be yours. There is no ‘side’ to be on, there is no ‘debate’ to be had.
capped by
A new generation of fans and creators is finally aiming to instate a healthy cultural vocabulary
Oh Leigh, you card!
(I'd LOVE to have hyper-consumers as my audience. That'd be the BEST audience to sell things to. And I'm not even selling anything!)
daedalus wrote: It's sort of like pornography for newspeak supporters, I think. I really don't get how anyone can read that and not have an involuntary twitch.
It's just confusing. Unlike Leigh, I want to see young men and women wearing plush mushroom hats.
I want to see young men and women buying posters of things they like.
I want to see young men and women queuing for game/console/whatever releases they're fans of.
I want to see young men and women reading reviews (with conflicts of interest disclosed when they exist).
I want to see young men and women dressed dorkily.
I want to see young men and women being socially awkward.
But nooooo, there's something wrong with all that.
.. and then said those stereotypes are proven wrong as gaming becomes more popular.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/12/04 19:32:45
Subject: SCII pro player disqualified from tournament for rape tweet, his opponent harassed as a result.
Melissia wrote: .. and then said those stereotypes are proven wrong as gaming becomes more popular.
Considering the article can have multiple valid interpretations due to the inconsistent tone
Or perhaps because a certain type of person was looking for a reason to be offended at women game journalists.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/12/04 20:19:35
Subject: Re:SCII pro player disqualified from tournament for rape tweet, his opponent harassed as a result.
Melissia wrote: Or perhaps because a certain type of person was looking for a reason to be offended at women game journalists.
If you're referring to me specifically don't worry, I'm offended by most games journalists regardless of their gender Besides, do you think it would have had less of an effect if Nathan Grayson had written the article? I think that would have made things worse.
I agree with your sig though - she wasn't attacking the negative gamer stereotype in the first three paragraphs, she was perpetuating it.
daedalus wrote: It's sort of like pornography for newspeak supporters, I think. I really don't get how anyone can read that and not have an involuntary twitch.
It's just confusing. Unlike Leigh, I want to see young men and women wearing plush mushroom hats.
I want to see young men and women buying posters of things they like.
I want to see young men and women queuing for game/console/whatever releases they're fans of.
I want to see young men and women reading reviews (with conflicts of interest disclosed when they exist).
I want to see young men and women dressed dorkily.
I want to see young men and women being socially awkward.
But nooooo, there's something wrong with all that.
Socially awkward is one thing... but it is this same social awkwardness that gets twelve year olds screaming racial epithets into my earpiece in CoD and telling women three times their age "TOGTFO". There's a limit to how far your social awkwardness (hereafter "SocAwk") will carry you in whatever interpersonal interactions you might find yourself in. SocAwk does not give you carte blanche to say whatever you want to say to whomever you want to say it to, and it does not protect you and the things you love from criticism.
SocAwk is no excuse for being a raging, mouth-foaming racist, misogynist, misandrist or mis-anything.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
2014/12/04 23:30:39
Subject: SCII pro player disqualified from tournament for rape tweet, his opponent harassed as a result.
But anonymity is. People act like jerks when they're annonymous because anonymity removes many of the repercussions. Face to face these people would never do these things, but behind the Internet Shield they can do whatever vile crap they want to because they're basically free from censure.
VorpalBunny74 wrote: I agree with your sig though - she wasn't attacking the negative gamer stereotype in the first three paragraphs, she was perpetuating it.
No, she was saying those stereotypes were false, proven false because gamers AREN'T those stereotypes.
To which many people seem to be responding with "well no, we are, and feth you for saying we aren't, we hope you get raped to death!".
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/05 00:31:46
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/12/05 00:32:27
Subject: SCII pro player disqualified from tournament for rape tweet, his opponent harassed as a result.
Psienesis wrote: Socially awkward is one thing... but it is this same social awkwardness that gets twelve year olds screaming racial epithets into my earpiece in CoD and telling women three times their age "TOGTFO". There's a limit to how far your social awkwardness (hereafter "SocAwk") will carry you in whatever interpersonal interactions you might find yourself in. SocAwk does not give you carte blanche to say whatever you want to say to whomever you want to say it to, and it does not protect you and the things you love from criticism.
SocAwk is no excuse for being a raging, mouth-foaming racist, misogynist, misandrist or mis-anything.
12 year olds being immature is no surprise - they are literally immature. Expecting them to have a fully formed, sensitive social conscience is a bit unrealistic.
So yes, I'll forgive a young man for being a bit misogynistic because he's not mature yet, and I'll forgive a young woman for being a bit misandristic because she's not mature yet.
I'll forgive no one for being a misocynist, though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote: No, she was saying those stereotypes were false, proven false because gamers AREN'T those stereotypes.
To which many people seem to be responding with "well no, we are, and feth you for saying we aren't, we hope you get raped to death!".
I disagree, she was saying that the stereotype exists and shouldn't be catered to. Such as:
This is hard for people who’ve drank the kool aid about how their identity depends on the aging cultural signposts of a rapidly-evolving, increasingly broad and complex medium. It’s hard for them to hear they don’t own anything, anymore, that they aren’t the world’s most special-est consumer demographic, that they have to share.
That doesn't sound like 'the stereotype is over'
Count the loaded adjectives. It was not a essay on hope, it was an essay on hate.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/05 00:53:28
It is saying gaming has become something beyond the stereotype, even if those that DO fit the stereotypes don't like it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/05 02:14:56
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/12/05 02:49:13
Subject: SCII pro player disqualified from tournament for rape tweet, his opponent harassed as a result.
She's correct, though, the stereotype shouldn't be catered to. It does exist, most certainly, but it isn't the majority of gamers anymore, and doesn't deserve to be treated like it is somehow "special".
... and 12 year olds screaming racist things in my ear is a failure of parenting. I have... words for their parents.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/05 02:50:18
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
2014/12/05 03:41:37
Subject: SCII pro player disqualified from tournament for rape tweet, his opponent harassed as a result.
Wait, are we talking about Leigh Alexander's article here?
Yeah feth that harpy (and I say that fully aware of the irony of what I'm about to say). Her and her other "gamers are dead" compatriots are some of the most vile people I've ever seen online. The amount of hateful crap spewing from those people during the first few weeks of #GG left me baffled as to why people think pro-#GG = pro-harassment when Leigh and her ilk were sharing views 10 times worse than the imaginary dragons they were railing against.
The title is inflammatory but the meat of the article is reasonable enough (please allow me to "mansplain"... ):
She is trying to say that the basement trolls that the software industry was targeting has moved on.
That stereotype is few and far between, it has been replaced with the more "traditional" consumers as gaming has moved into mainstream.
She has rightly pointed out the industry is too slow in recognizing it, almost like it is trying to convert some of these consumers into the old stereotype they are comfortable with.
As the "market" realizes the new demographics, the product will better reflect the true audience and not cater to the socially inept...
Leigh is a bit brutal at times but her articles read well enough (her multiple links are interesting).
So, now gamers are "athletes" held in the same lofty status that all entails.
It appears the participants also have to get used to the fact of being held accountable for what they say like an NHL hockey player (think about the children!).
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
2014/12/05 23:54:56
Subject: SCII pro player disqualified from tournament for rape tweet, his opponent harassed as a result.
I'm not so sure that the "athlete" tag applies... but I think it's sort of on the right track. Moreso, the people you're likely to be in communication with are going to be less-tolerant of your "ist" gak than the small sub-culture of CHUDs you used to have was.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
2014/12/06 05:38:40
Subject: Re:SCII pro player disqualified from tournament for rape tweet, his opponent harassed as a result.
APG: Let’s talk about the “Death of Gamers” prediction that has been going around as of late. Why is it happening and how should gamers react?
Dr. Christina Hoff Sommers: The gaming industry is exploding right now. Developers are finding that almost every human activity can be turned into a video game — story telling, art appreciation, even psychotherapy and saving the planet. Games have a unique capacity to entertain, educate, and motivate people. We are only beginning to understand their power. Video games have never enjoyed much respect as an art form, but as gaming evolves, that could change. So I can understand why some critics would look with impatience at popular mass-market games like Grand Theft Auto.
But here is where these critics go wrong. Grand Theft Auto can co-exist with sensitive, literary games like Gone Home. It is not an either/or. Many gamers are angry because these cultural critics are not merely calling for greater creativity and diversity — they have declared war on gamer culture. Consider Leigh Alexander’s cri de coeur in Gamasutra. She declared that “gamers are over.” She spoke of gaming culture as a “petri dish” full of losers and deadbeats. I think “shitslingers” was her term. She has a vision of a more elevated gamer society — filled with decorous, gender-sensitive players. Games, she says, should be more like literature. “We want tragicomedy, vignette, musicals, dream worlds, family takes, ethnographies, abstract art. We will get this, because we’re creating culture now.”
If I were a gamer, I would say, fine, go ahead. Create your vignettes and your dream worlds. No one cares. Just please leave us alone.
Besides, do you think it would have had less of an effect if Nathan Grayson had written the article? I think that would have made things worse.
):
