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Ok well, once again a year has passed and I am on the hunt for an alternative army. My last attempt was with dark elder, but I wasn't a huge fan for various reasons, possibly because I already have eldar and I prefer my nasty Iyanden lists lol.

So anyway, after years of putting it off, I am finally looking into an Ork army. I started with tyranids years ago, and I never loked at orks seriously because it would mean two horde armies (and all the painting issues that implies), but I havent played 'nids in a long time and I'm actually selling the models so... time for waaaaagh.

But I have a few questions, after reading through the new Ork codex and the related supplements. (Also read the 7thE codex, but I'm new to it so I'm not fluent as yet)

Ok so, I'm all about the fun units, cos well... its Orks. If you're not blowing someone up, or killing a grot, then why are you playing them right!? So...

1) Big Mek with shokk attack gun. This is a pretty nice unit. Tempted to put him on a warbike, but then he would have to be in a squad of bikers to be safe and useful, but then I get into movement issues dont I? cos its an ordnance weapon? Also warbikers should get into combat it seems, and that would waste the SAG. Also thought he would be useful in a battlewagon, but then I think he can only shoot if the wagon moves 6" or less in a turn, which might be a bit limiting for it.
So whats the best way to use this guy? I could leave him on the back lines with some mek guns, but that seems like a waste and the enemy can easily hide from LOS? Any thoughts on this would be helpful thanks.

2) killa kanz/deff dread They fit in with my vision of a mek-based ork army (instead of a horde) but i hear conflicting reports of them being "good for their points" vs being "god awful and instantly killed". Are they only useful in a full walker deff dredd type list? While I would love to field a wall of kanz, I dont think my budget would stretch to it haha. 3 killa kanz and a single deff dredd might be my limit, but if thats not enough to make them worthwhile i would spend my points on battlewagons and mek-gunz and make the rest bikers and deffkoptas.
Any advice would be appreciated, maybe to focus my ideas a bit.


Thats all for now, I'm sure I'll think of more later though haha. Thanks for any tips, I shall go back to my codex now.

Niiru wrote:
1) Big Mek with shokk attack gun. This is a pretty nice unit. Tempted to put him on a warbike, but then he would have to be in a squad of bikers to be safe and useful, but then I get into movement issues dont I? cos its an ordnance weapon? Also warbikers should get into combat it seems, and that would waste the SAG. Also thought he would be useful in a battlewagon, but then I think he can only shoot if the wagon moves 6" or less in a turn, which might be a bit limiting for it.
So whats the best way to use this guy? I could leave him on the back lines with some mek guns, but that seems like a waste and the enemy can easily hide from LOS? Any thoughts on this would be helpful thanks.

Taking the bike gives him Relentless, which allows you to fire the Ordnance even if he moves. You don't have to put him in a unit of bikes just 'cos he's on a bike. In the 'Wagon, he can only shoot if the vehicle doesn't move at all. My friend who regularly takes one finds the tallest piece of terrain he can find in his deployment zone and plonks him there - though with his rolls it rarely earns it's points back.

Niiru wrote:
2) killa kanz/deff dread They fit in with my vision of a mek-based ork army (instead of a horde) but i hear conflicting reports of them being "good for their points" vs being "god awful and instantly killed". Are they only useful in a full walker deff dredd type list? While I would love to field a wall of kanz, I dont think my budget would stretch to it haha. 3 killa kanz and a single deff dredd might be my limit, but if thats not enough to make them worthwhile i would spend my points on battlewagons and mek-gunz and make the rest bikers and deffkoptas.

Can't really offer much advice here, as I've not tried a Kan-heavy list, but noteworthy that the Space Wolves vs Orks bundle box thing came with 3 Killakans, so you might be able to pick up some of those at a reasonable discount.

 Quanar wrote:
Taking the bike gives him Relentless, which allows you to fire the Ordnance even if he moves. You don't have to put him in a unit of bikes just 'cos he's on a bike. In the 'Wagon, he can only shoot if the vehicle doesn't move at all. My friend who regularly takes one finds the tallest piece of terrain he can find in his deployment zone and plonks him there - though with his rolls it rarely earns it's points back.

Ok thanks for clearing that one up then. So he is no good in a 'wagon, but I guess if I put him in a wagon with some nobz and a KFF he would be pretty handy. Or I guess even a squad of meganobz, though this then turns into an expensive unit.

The SAG is fun even tho its a bit random on results.

I like to put him on the upper floor of a ruin for cover and good view of the board and give him da lucky stick for re-rolls.

As for Kans, they need to be in a formation to be effective. Mek guns will give you better results for less points. A unit of 4 lobbas is cheap and deadly. Toss in a big mek with ammo runts for re-rolls and watch the bodies fall.

Bikes are still great and deffkoptas are even better. Put a Warboss on a bike with deffkoptas and out flank him into your opponents backfield.

Ps tankbustas are amazing.

CYBORK wrote:
The SAG is fun even tho its a bit random on results.

I like to put him on the upper floor of a ruin for cover and good view of the board and give him da lucky stick for re-rolls.

As for Kans, they need to be in a formation to be effective. Mek guns will give you better results for less points. A unit of 4 lobbas is cheap and deadly. Toss in a big mek with ammo runts for re-rolls and watch the bodies fall.

Bikes are still great and deffkoptas are even better. Put a Warboss on a bike with deffkoptas and out flank him into your opponents backfield.

Ps tankbustas are amazing.

Oh thats nice to hear, I'd heard good and bad about koptas but I like the models lol. Though I had read that they suffer from mob rule so you should only take them in small squads of 2, but I guess with a boss on a bike that helps with that.

I have also seen the good (but expensive) nob biker units. Lots of saves with invulnerable and FNP saves, but a unit of 5 + painboy+ big mek (for KFF) is going to be something like 500 pts (or something, lots of points anyway) and I've been looking into wether just normal warbikers with a painboy would be a cheaper and yet still dangerous alternative.

I would still need 2 troops choices too (unless I make bikes troops with the FW character, but this means no mek-gunz). And I cant have troops in 'wagons, unless I use up heavy slots.

Well, unless I find a tricky combination of formations that give me the items I need, or make an army using two FOC.

I don't have too much trouble with Kanz when I field them. But it comes down heavily to what my opponent brings. Typically I be more worried about a Deffdread or Morkanaut dying in one shot than kans.

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
I don't have too much trouble with Kanz when I field them. But it comes down heavily to what my opponent brings. Typically I be more worried about a Deffdread or Morkanaut dying in one shot than kans.

While I do love walkers, I wasn't a big fan of the new morka- and gorkanaut. They seem bigger, just as slow, and just as easy to kill as a deff dredd, but for twice as many points...

Yeh they can transport troops and get bigger weapons, but not sure it worth it. Expensive models too, to play and to buy. Think I prefer the battlewagons.

If you run Nob bikers don't waste points on a KFF.
Your jink save is better and not many things will deny you both jink and armor saves.

Just run unbound with orks. You will have much more fun without worrying about FOC requirements.

CYBORK wrote:
If you run Nob bikers don't waste points on a KFF.
Your jink save is better and not many things will deny you both jink and armor saves.

Just run unbound with orks. You will have much more fun without worrying about FOC requirements.

Haha, yeh I had considered this. I already have a "serious" grey knights inquisition, and a "serious" eldar iyanden list.

If any army is allowed to throw the rules out and just field all the crazy shiz, its the orks. I may not win, but the enemy wont be quite sure who's going to blow up what until the game is over.

Might load up on shokk attack guns, mek-gunz mega-kannon, ... any other stuff I can find with wierd rules and big blasts. So I guess a wierdboy would be good too.

And lots of rokkits. and a blitzbomma.

Hmmmmm

edit: also grot-tanks and the grot-bomm are both very cool and fun looking models. tempting. Shame grot-bomms can only be taken on the 1-shot launcher in 40k. I'd love to take them on a kill-krusha tank as an extra, but im pretty sure thats apocalypse only.
Forgeworld is a horrible temptress.

Whenever I ran the SAG mek, I stuck him with my lootas. I figured they would be shooting at the same targets and they both have long range weaponry. And the lootas would soak up wounds from returning fire.

As for deff dreads and killakans, I have only ever run with a couple deff dreads and they haven't seemed to do much. People tend to ignore it and they are really slow getting around. Although they can act as a target saturation or as a deterrent for people to send something to that general area.

I did just get some killakans on ebay for about $35 and plan to try them out soon. I am not sure what weapons to give them and the kit that I got didnt have any two of the same weapon. So unless I do some conversion (which is likely) I will have to make each kan with a different ranged weapon.

If you want waffles consider a mff from w!g. It's the best save for your kanz.

I'm not so sure anything but the kanz are good in the mek mob list.

BS3 and ap2 assault screams usefulness for the right army. Deff Dread doesn't seem valuable enough for its own slot.

 Rismonite wrote:
If you want waffles consider a mff from w!g. It's the best save for your kanz.

I'm not so sure anything but the kanz are good in the mek mob list.

BS3 and ap2 assault screams usefulness for the right army. Deff Dread doesn't seem valuable enough for its own slot.

I managed to decipher mff (mega force field) and w!g (waaaagh grazkul) but... waffles? lol

One thing I've found in IA is that I can in fact have kill-tanks (at least in games that allow forgeworld, but the people I play wont mind it). So I could have grot-bombs as addons, which is fun.

however I also found the Mekboy Junka. Basically a trukk, but with slightly better armour, and the ability to have grot bomms... or a mounted shokk attack gun, or a KFF.
The temptation to have:

Big Mek with KFF
Junka with Shokk gun
Can also have 3 rokkit launchers, but i dont think I can fire any other weapons with the Shokk...

Or I could have the Big Mek KFF, with Junka, 2 grot bomms, 3 twin linked rokkit launchers... 225pts for an 11/11/10 fast vehicle with a 5++ save and can carry 6 troops. Grot bomms look like devastating good fun.

You guys are making me want to buy more orks!

Need...more...models

I'm immediatly hitting the problem of having to find all this stuff for cheap lol. (relatively).

Theres a couple people on ebay selling whole armies, but then I'm paying money for units I dont need. And I lose the modelling fun.

Might have to pick a unit and start some kitbashing. So I shall come up with a small fun list first, and then go from there.

Mek guns make for an effective unit for the SAG mek to nestle into. 3 kustom mega kannons with full krew and a SAG mek will be dishing out some AP2 firepower, generally at the same targets. make sure you give the SAG mek a gitfinda for the extra BS.

Deffkoptas are my favourite unit in the book, for utitlity and fun. single koptas to snag objectives, full units to irritate the enemy, full units with the blitzabike warboss and a biker painboy for massed AP3 output and a seriously tough unit.

for fun, flashgitz are good. decent ranged output, then people forget that they're nobs and charge them, and get themselves whupped for their troubles. great for throwing at the weaker aspects of the enemy force and shooting & assaulting them off the table.

Deff Dreads are a good thing for their price, they have a low enough threat that people tend to ignore them (antitank goes onto battlewagons thrown straight down the enemy's throat) and are survivable enough to tie up more normal troops (spehs mehreens, chaos, eldar). great for lurking around doing very little then suddenly contesting at the end of the game.

Killa Kans are best in non-maxxed units. they are fragile enough that if someone wants them dead, they die. so having 6 to die is just twice as many points wasted as having 3 to die. 3 will still put out 6 blasts with zookas, and that's enough. treat them as really elite infantry more than walkers - they're immune to S4, need cover for a save, and do a bit of shooting, a bit of getting in the way.

Weirdboys in units of 20 shootas are good for fun. always a chance you'll deepstrike 'em into the enemy!

While unbound is easiest and fun, I think I should try and stuck to a "legal" army list, as a lot of the unbound possibilities are a bit... yeh.

Especially as I'm using forgeworld for one or two of my ideas, I dont think I should push my luck much further haha. I do have the choice of using the great waaagh detachment for extra elites if I want. Or the standard ork detachment for extra hq.

Though I am thinking of using the Mogrok's Bossboys formation, which doesnt use up any slots, and gives me a warboss, 3 big meks and a weirdboy. No restrictions on builds (it says) which I assume means I can go nuts giving them warbikes etc.

You can put a mek with Mek gunz. Something like KMK. They'll make him t7. And he'll make them ld8. Win-win. Though, be careful with placing. None of them is barrage and KMK have 36 range which ain't great for practically immobile guns. Oh, and get ammo runts. It's a must. Both for kmk and mek. It will allow your grots to reroll gets hot on KMK and live to another day.

Deff dredds are nice on paper. Kanz are not. But even with deff dreadz you run into a problem of how well they synchronise with the rest of your list.
If you're playing speed freaks, they're too slow and spread focus which you can't afford with orkses.
If they run alongside the footsloggas, they're one of the few vehicles out there and all the AT gunz the enemy has brought now have targets. That can't take a real punch on their own like everything orky.
They must be supported by a large number of other slow AV stuff like kanz and naughts. Basically, Dredd mob. But than you run into a problem of kanz and deff dreddz not being that astounishing themselves. And the problem of av11-13 durability on slow platforms without jink.

All in all, ork walkers aren't amazing atm. Every second list will counter them badly. You can run a dread or a few kanz in a regular list without handicapping yourself too hard, however. The best way to do it is launch them on the flank and push forward. Away from as many AT as possible. They can make it vs a missile launcher or two, a plazma gun or two, a lazcannon but when the enemy can focus them down with something more than an accident shot - they won't do much.

Before you've started collecting, it's necessery to decide what direction to choose. Timing is very important with orkses. We've got lots of cheap, relatively killy but squishy and counterable stuff. So, you can't just take a bunch of everything and call it a day like sm or eldar can. You got to be a bit more tactical and aim for a simultanious threat saturation. Everything must hit the fray at the same time. If you're going fast aiming for a turn 2 assault - everything must go fast. Battlewagonz, bikers, trucks. If you go sloggy you aim for board controle, area denial and turn 3-4 strike with what's still there. You take hell lot of boyz, can get something like kommandoes or stormboyz - they work fine with sloggas. You can stick a walker or two on the flank. And a truck with something like meganobz or 'ard boyz will find their place. But don't take too much pts away from the core. And a single battlewagon won't make it into the combat by itself. If you mix slow and fast in like 50/50 - nothing will make it.

 koooaei wrote:

Before you've started collecting, it's necessery to decide what direction to choose. Timing is very important with orkses. We've got lots of cheap, relatively killy but squishy and counterable stuff. So, you can't just take a bunch of everything and call it a day like sm or eldar can. You got to be a bit more tactical and aim for a simultanious threat saturation. Everything must hit the fray at the same time. If you're going fast aiming for a turn 2 assault - everything must go fast. Battlewagonz, bikers, trucks. If you go sloggy you aim for board controle, area denial and turn 3-4 strike with what's still there. You take hell lot of boyz, can get something like kommandoes or stormboyz - they work fine with sloggas. You can stick a walker or two on the flank. And a truck with something like meganobz or 'ard boyz will find their place. But don't take too much pts away from the core. And a single battlewagon won't make it into the combat by itself. If you mix slow and fast in like 50/50 - nothing will make it.

Yeh, this is why im going through all the codexes (codicies...) and making a little list of all the units I'd like to have, and the ones I'd rather avoid.

Likes:
Big Meks. With Shokk guns. Though the KFF is nice to have too. The formation I am considering gets 3 big meks, a wierdboy, and a warboss. Potentially pricey but fun.

Mekboy Junka - FW model, but would be fun to make my own. 12/11/10 armour, can have a shokk gun and still transport 6 troops. Fun fast crazy vehicle. (Though 170pts with shokk). Can also have grot bomms instead (cheaper. mentioned below)

Deffkoptas - with rokkits.

Warbikes - nice models.

Mekgunz - The kustom mega-kannon, and the smasha gun, both seem blasty. Also does the lobba. Although I did consider...
Lootas - Instead of mekgunz. Or as well. I didnt like them at first but their diceroll potential for devastation fits my idea of orkiness.

Blitz-Bomma - Plane drop big bomb. Ork happy.

Grot tanks - Probably would make my own, another fun project (orks have so many) and not bad little units.

Grot-bomb - Funny little model, funky little weapon.


Dislikes:

Troops. Well, not quite, I dont mind the ork troops, but I dont want another horde. And I can't use the zhadrak boss to make bikers troops very easily, as it removed the ability to use kanz and mekgunz, and it also means I cant use the boss formation for extra free HQs.

Yeh I can go unbound and forgo troops entirely, but I'd rather try and keep a bound list just to limit complaints, especially as I'm doing the forgeworld thing.


EDIT:
I keep going back to the dread mob list. I like walkers, and the idea of a big kan in close combat is fun (everyone loves that) but the problem is they are slow and generally not very good. However... It does mean I can fill my 2 troops slots by having 2 deff dreads (1 in each slot). Unfortunatly it means no mek-gunz again (for some reason they arent mentioned in the list, but everything else is. including blitza-bommer). Lootas are in there though. Hmmmm.

A dread mob list with minimum walkers seems inherantly wrong, but filling up with junkas and wagons and big crazy dakka might make me feel better about it all :p

Regarding Kans:
in the previous codex, Kans were "Okay" not great, not terrible just "Okay"

Then GW decided, "Hey! I've got a idea! Let's make Kans more expensive, give a them a faux leadership thing AND make their klaws only S=7!" They increased by 10 points and got nerfed at the same time. I really don't consider them worth using anymore. And if I do, I'm going to cheatzy-doodle by using the ones from the Forgeworld book

 Overlord Thraka wrote:
Regarding Kans:
in the previous codex, Kans were "Okay" not great, not terrible just "Okay"

Then GW decided, "Hey! I've got a idea! Let's make Kans more expensive, give a them a faux leadership thing AND make their klaws only S=7!" They increased by 10 points and got nerfed at the same time. I really don't consider them worth using anymore. And if I do, I'm going to cheatzy-doodle by using the ones from the Forgeworld book

Yeh I know. Nice models though.

However, the deff dreads arent *terrible*, and having two for 150pts total isnt... awful. slow though.

But the rest of the list can be fast and shooty. I dont know what I can do with deffdreads really.

Edit:
I started to list out the basis of my "draft" that I am considering (though I dont think its likely to be any use competitively) but then I soon realised I was pretty much writing an army list, and this isnt the place for that. So I posted up the draft army list in the right forum, and figured I'd link it here as it will be the quickest way to show you the kinds of units I like.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/624899.page


tl;dr : Rokkits. Pie plates. Crazy random rules.

Edit2:
Considering the fun of building a grot mega tank, to go along with the grot tanks. Grots are fun.

On top of what I just said, I'm also wondering... just how good are weirdboys? They seem to be very cheap and have limited upgrade options... being basically none at all. And yet they take up valuable HQ slots.

Warbikers are a bit expensive to play retinue for a single model that has to stay at range (60", remember?).

You can play the Forgeworld List and use a Junka. That gives the Mek a tank of his own that can mount a turret-based SAG while offering somewhat decent protection.

As for the cans: Well, you obviously won't get the same amount of worth out of a killa can that you get out of a SM dreadnought. On the other hand, you also pay only 1/3rd the points, so, in pure ork fashion, just drown them in cans. Rember that your enemy will still need to take two hull points each per can and that will suck up quite a bit of heavy weapons fire.
Use that to your advantage, bring the Deffdreads up behind and enjoy the carnage.
I think these are both good units, you just have to rembember to be both, brutal an' cunnin'!

Yeh the list i posted doesnt have any bikes in it. Has a couple deffkoptas, but they dont have a character with them. Havent managed to fit in any bikes.


Edit:
Also yeh the Junka is in my list already, but I fitted it with 2xgrot bomms instead of a SAG. I wanted the shokk, but it totals up to about 190pts for the junka. So with a bigmek with KFF inside, thats about 270 pts.

Sure, its a vehicle with a 5++ and a big fun pieplate shokk gun, but I wouldnt know what to do with it... I guess park it at the back of the map somewhere, but with a fast junka model it seem slike it should be racing around firing rockets in peoples faces. Uncertain. and quite expensive in points.

Seriously if you like Kans models then go for it. Every orks units have enough awesomeness in them to be competitive when you learn to use them.

I am also tired of playing 70++ models on the boards, so I tend towards a dread mob (formation) if I can ; it is still a horde, but of walkers.
For one, this is a competitive way to use Kans these days, and more important, it has that "wow" effect for anyone looking at the army on the table.

I have been looking at the dread mob "codex" and one of my lists is based on it. Only uses 2 deff dreads and no kans atm, I used grot tanks instead so far, though its very much an early draft.

Is it just me, or dont killer kanz seem much more like a "troops choice" than deff dreads? Just seems more appropriate lol

Here's another question:

Chinork Warkoptas. Are these any good? 10-man transports, flying/skimmer (so jink saves useful), 65points base, three allowed in one fast attack slot so pretty efficient from a FOC point of view. Though it does mean them staying in a squadron. they get deffguns too as standard, though only BS2 i believe. I like the idea of it, but not certain on how useful they are in practise. I've searched for people's info, but while theres a lot of threads about people making conversions of them, I couldnt find any reports of people actually using them lol.

Niiru wrote:
Here's another question:

Chinork Warkoptas. Are these any good? 10-man transports, flying/skimmer (so jink saves useful), 65points base, three allowed in one fast attack slot so pretty efficient from a FOC point of view. Though it does mean them staying in a squadron. they get deffguns too as standard, though only BS2 i believe. I like the idea of it, but not certain on how useful they are in practise. I've searched for people's info, but while theres a lot of threads about people making conversions of them, I couldnt find any reports of people actually using them lol.

I used them about two times and they are a great alternative to a trukk (for twice as much) for getting models over to where they need to be, all while getting jink! quite a lot of fun if used to flat out and be a nuisance.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:


I used them about two times and they are a great alternative to a trukk (for twice as much) for getting models over to where they need to be, all while getting jink! quite a lot of fun if used to flat out and be a nuisance.

Fun is an important factor Them being twice as much is a problem, though only if they aren't *worth* twice as much. The deffgun and jink saves help out in their favour i think.

Niiru wrote:

 Tiger9gamer wrote:


I used them about two times and they are a great alternative to a trukk (for twice as much) for getting models over to where they need to be, all while getting jink! quite a lot of fun if used to flat out and be a nuisance.

Fun is an important factor Them being twice as much is a problem, though only if they aren't *worth* twice as much. The deffgun and jink saves help out in their favour i think.

it really does. much for the same reason an wave serpeant can get things quickly across the table (you know minus the serpeant shield, and -2 front armor, and all the weapons)

Wave serpent does cost the same as two warkoptas... and is probably still better, but everyone knows wave serpents are op lol