Combined Profile Ramifications

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**Acardia**

Experiment 626 wrote:
iLLiTHiD wrote:
Anything that promotes taking ridden centre-piece worthy monsters into the game is a good idea. I started back in 5th during the age of HeroHammer. Whilst I don't want it to return to that level of brokenness, I do despair when I can't take a dragon or manticore because it will get cannoned off the board turn 1.

Either they need to tone down artillery's strength, return/increase randomness/guessing to artillery, or buff ridden monsters with these combined profile rules.

Personally I'd love to see GW do the following;

1. Cap Ward Saves at 4++ in general.
Fantasy simply does not have the massive volume of firepower or fistfuls of close combat attacks that 40k has. Getting through a 3++ or god forbid, a 2++ is just a huge PITA, to the point of being all but impossible. (look at what the stupid 'I-win' Banner does to DoC!)
One-shot 2++ saves such as the Golden Crown, or else a very specific 2++ save such as items like the Dragonbane Gem are fine, as is the idea of Magic Res buffing an existing ward save, since there's ways around those items. (ie: don't send your burny attack dudes to fight those Dragon Princes!) But outright strait-up 3++ or better saves vs. all forms of damage bar the instant-kill spells is simply too good. (especially since two of the armies capable of getting a 3++ or better happily ignore both the Initiative based kill-spells...)
Imagine for an instant the dreaded Chaos Dragon with the Tzeentch Lord sporting his 3++ re-roll 1's... even cannons, the natural hard counter to this guy are rendered an almost non-factor!

A 50/50 shot at avoiding the cannonball, (or whatever else!), is still solid protection.

2. Large Targets only suffer D3 wounds vs. cannons.
You wouldn't have to change the way cannons in general work, but the big, points-heavy monsters would now be only half a vulnerable to them. (and lucky one-shotting is removed entirely!)
Perhaps cannons could keep a special rule such as a roll of a 6 to-wound = full D6 damage, to represent the crew lucking out and hitting a vital spot?!

I agree with both points. I love the idea of combined profiles as well. I think some filth could still be found, but it won't be like it is now.

**Experiment 626**

With GW's focus being more towards giving us players as many options as possible vs. an air tight competitive rules set, there's always going to be super filth.

Of course, just because it's possible to make an 'uber combo of game-ruining domination, doesn't mean you should!
And saying, "it's in the rules/army book so I can and will break the game" is just a poor excuse for admitting you have no self control and don't care much about your potential opponent also having a fun time*

(*unless of course, you & your opponent have agreed to play super filthy lists)

**Shas'O Dorian**

Experiment 626 wrote:

And saying, "it's in the rules/army book so I can and will break the game" is just a poor excuse for admitting you have no self control and don't care much about your potential opponent also having a fun time*

(*unless of course, you & your opponent have agreed to play super filthy lists)

IMO this goes out the window in tournaments. Tournaments are the place to bring your filth. You are competing to see who is number one & usually paying money / winning prizes. That said I am not against comp, however I won't fault a player for bringing the filth within the rules of a tourny.

**Experiment 626**

Shas'O Dorian wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:

And saying, "it's in the rules/army book so I can and will break the game" is just a poor excuse for admitting you have no self control and don't care much about your potential opponent also having a fun time*

(*unless of course, you & your opponent have agreed to play super filthy lists)

IMO this goes out the window in tournaments. Tournaments are the place to bring your filth. You are competing to see who is number one & usually paying money / winning prizes. That said I am not against comp, however I won't fault a player for bringing the filth within the rules of a tourny.

Tournaments are an entirely different animal for sure, and typically you go into one knowing full well & expecting to see some really nasty combos come out to the fight.

Still, 'Tournament' games are the minority. Generally speaking, this whole, "it's in the rules, so eat it!" attitude is just plain unsportsmanlike without first forewarning your opponent that you're playing a hard core competitive list.
ie: bringing a Lv4 to a 1000pts game 'just because you can', or else springing the so-called 'unkillable' DP or a Tzeentch Lord sporting the 3++/re-roll 1's in a 1250pts game, etc...

It's that kind of BS that helps drive the average player out of the LGS/clubs and/or creates clique'ish communities and bad attitudes.

**riburn3**

I love the combined profiles. Much more streamlined and a little more in line with 40k. I hope down the road they combine profiles to just general cavalry, similar to how 40k has done for models on bikes, etc.

Experiment 626, you're dead on with your comments about tournaments vs more casual play. When I walk into a tournament, I expect it to be a cheese list, flavor of the month tournament with nothing but internet produced filth lists (sad how uncreative some tournaments have gotten as a result of the internet). Conversely, when I'm playing at my FLGS on your typical weekend, it's much more fun themed armies in a casual environment. People learn quickly not to bring a filth list to this type of format since they will seldom get another game. Just because you can be obnoxious with your lists doesn't mean you have to be.

**Experiment 626**

riburn3 wrote:
I love the combined profiles. Much more streamlined and a little more in line with 40k. I hope down the road they combine profiles to just general cavalry, similar to how 40k has done for models on bikes, etc.

If they want to do a combined profile for basic 1 wound cavalry, I think a good way of doing so would be to keep the rider at their basic 1 attack, (or 2 in the case of certain elite cav such as DP's, Chaos Knights, Saurus, etc...), and instead change Devastating Charge to be similar to Hammer of Wrath by giving the ponies in the front rank a single, automatic S4 hit to represent the force of impact & the kicking and biting.

**Shas'O Dorian**

riburn3 wrote:
Much more streamlined and a little more in line with 40k. I hope down the road they combine profiles to just general cavalry, similar to how 40k has done for models on bikes, etc.

Keep 40k out of my fantasy... Honestly I left 40k last edition & have never looked back, I don't want to see fantasy go down that road.

Also Experiment, we have rules for what you're describing, impact hits. I would not like to see the cav profile combined. Different mounts have different properties it's not like 40k where a bike is a bike unless it's a flying bike. Elf cav are different from Regular cav are different from Skeletal cav are different from Cold ones. It's not that complicated, you get the M of the cav & attack with both.

**Experiment 626**

Shas'O Dorian wrote:
riburn3 wrote:
Much more streamlined and a little more in line with 40k. I hope down the road they combine profiles to just general cavalry, similar to how 40k has done for models on bikes, etc.

Keep 40k out of my fantasy... Honestly I left 40k last edition & have never looked back, I don't want to see fantasy go down that road.

Also Experiment, we have rules for what you're describing, impact hits. I would not like to see the cav profile combined. Different mounts have different properties it's not like 40k where a bike is a bike unless it's a flying bike. Elf cav are different from Regular cav are different from Skeletal cav are different from Cold ones. It's not that complicated, you get the M of the cav & attack with both.

I know cav are simple, but still, odds are GW will want to water things down and keep it simpler to hopefully entice more Little Timmy's to play. And right now, even as simple as the rule are, Fantasy is overall too intimidating & difficult to pick-up for the average Little Timmy that GW caters to.
Simply giving the mount an impact hit keeps things simpler, speeds things up and could still go in-depth enough to have the different types of ponies represented. (ie: 'basic' human/elven war horses get 1 S3 auto-hit, while cold ones get 1 S4/armour piercing auto-hit, etc...)

Besides, as long as they keep the ability in some form to attack in any way, the power of cavalry won't be changing at all... those ponies will still keep killing more than the durps on top with their rubber lances!

**Shas'O Dorian**

Little Timmy can play 40k until he matures enough to graduate to fantasy

But seriously I don't like that change. Then it makes cav worse. They get impact hits but nothing in the later rounds.

**Experiment 626**

Shas'O Dorian wrote:
Little Timmy can play 40k until he matures enough to graduate to fantasy

But seriously I don't like that change. Then it makes cav worse. They get impact hits but nothing in the later rounds.

Whenever I play, I've found that typically, if your heavy cav is stuck fighting beyond the initial round they charge in, they're dead ducks anyways.

Of course, that could also be because of the 8-10 strong unit I take, at least 75% of them get shot through their visors by S3 arrows... (then there was that first and only time I used Blood Knights, and all 6 died in a single volley from 18 High Elf archers...

)