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 Gunzhard wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
You're being quite negative Gunhazard.

Maybe its you that has a bias towards what constitutes negativity.

--(Poll) Why did you stop playing 40K/Games Workshop?

--So the price of one, single, plastic, mono-pose power armored figure...

--Whats the angriest you've ever gotten in a 40k game? What did you do?

--The "Spirit of the Game" from an old White Dwarf (June 1998)

--does unbound real just brake the game more

Have you spent any time here? ...here are just a few - read through any of these hah.

Do you know what all those threads have in common?

Created by totally different people.

EDIT

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that you, and posters like you, do far more damage by "complaining about complaining" or doing people down for "being negative" or simply dismissing an opinion because you view it as negative than any amount of "whining."

People get criticised for being critical, but seldom does that criticism come with any sort of constructive element. We get "don't like it, GTFO" we get flat out name calling, but nobody, IME, ever puts forward any sort of credible counter argument to the criticisms on offer, just criticises the person for holding them.

So, you want to change the attitude on here? Post stuff that generates a positive attitude. Unfortunately, you're unlikely to get much help from GW in that endeavour.

And have you read the posts of people who post in threads about GW/40k?

Its always filled with:

-Why are you still posting?
-Can I have your stuff?
-Couldn't adapt to the changing meta
-Other things are more expensive, quit your whining
-There's so much negativity, this forum sucks, the community sucks (with no irony intended)

You can't seriously claim there's too much negativity with regards to GW/40k and not acknowledge an equal amount of backlash of negativity when someone posts some criticism about GW or 40k.

 Blacksails wrote:
And have you read the posts of people who post in threads about GW/40k?

Its always filled with:

-Why are you still posting?
-Can I have your stuff?
-Couldn't adapt to the changing meta
-Other things are more expensive, quit your whining
-There's so much negativity, this forum sucks, the community sucks (with no irony intended)

You can't seriously claim there's too much negativity with regards to GW/40k and not acknowledge an equal amount of backlash of negativity when someone posts some criticism about GW or 40k.

For several years I've seen some of the same people, who admit to having quit 40K many years ago, bashing GW on every single thread, almost daily (how can that be seen as 'normal' or productive?). I rarely add a comment here, because that is the temperature (the culture) of this room, regularly. This forum is unique in it's extreme negative culture; it really is - whether you believe those negative opinions are justified or not, that is the truth.

 Azreal13 wrote:
So, you want to change the attitude on here? Post stuff that generates a positive attitude. Unfortunately, you're unlikely to get much help from GW in that endeavour.

This is the crux of it Azreal... GW is doing a lot of great things, but dare someone post a 'positive' post on THIS forum, it get's smashed so quick. I learned that long ago...

And for several years I've seen the same people come into any thread that has the slightest hint of negativity towards GW/40k and bash on people who don't praise GW/40k at all times. The culture I've found is equally negative towards people who don't see 40k/GW in a positive light.

Again, you can't soapbox about negativity towards GW or 40k without being equally adamant about stopping negativity towards anyone who expresses a negative opinion about GW or 40k.

Ok. And how many of the topics currently on the front page are not negative?


Not that it really matters. I'll say the same thing I say every time this comes up: if you want to see more positive discussion, engage in more positive discussion.

It seems sometimes that people would rather just complain about the complaints and wait for someone else to fix the 'problem'.

 Blacksails wrote:
And for several years I've seen the same people come into any thread that has the slightest hint of negativity towards GW/40k and bash on people who don't praise GW/40k at all times. The culture I've found is equally negative towards people who don't see 40k/GW in a positive light.

Again, you can't soapbox about negativity towards GW or 40k without being equally adamant about stopping negativity towards anyone who expresses a negative opinion about GW or 40k.

'You pointing out my constant negativity is - negative!' ...I'm sorry that's not logic. We are talking about toys first of all, and there is no way to justify that 'negativity' is actually helping the game/community/etc... That said, I've never said anything about praising GW at all times.

"GW is doing a lot of great things."

Go for it, make the thread, but I warn you, the last time I remember someone trying that, it wasn't the "negs" that got it locked, it was the advocates who couldn't handle a reasonable discussion and started throwing around strawmen and ad homs.

 Blacksails wrote:
And for several years I've seen the same people come into any thread that has the slightest hint of negativity towards GW/40k and bash on people who don't praise GW/40k at all times. The culture I've found is equally negative towards people who don't see 40k/GW in a positive light.

Again, you can't soapbox about negativity towards GW or 40k without being equally adamant about stopping negativity towards anyone who expresses a negative opinion about GW or 40k.

As someone who's lurked Dakka for a while I can attest to this. The "Anti-GW" crowd tend to dislike anything GW does, but at the same time you have a "Pro-GW" crowd that attempts to do things such as start circular arguments to get threads they don't like locked (Zweischneid was the king of this), or just plain come in and make rude off hand comments or attempt to dismiss any arguments against GW as "haters gonna hate". You also kind of get tired of seeing said Pro-GW crowd dance around rule #1 by talking about certain groups they know or presume the other side is a part of.

It isn't helped that there are certain dinosaurs and dark eldar enthusiasts that just come into threads to make posts they KNOW will flare people up (haha see I can dance too).

Yes it is annoying when a little birdie comes into a thread and starts screeching, but at the same time having someone come in and dismiss your opinion on an issue as "haters gonna hate" because they can't think of a valid counter-argument is both insulting and annoying.

No, but you're complaining on a forum about there being too much negativity.

Do you find it equally obnoxious when someone complains about the complaining?

What does it matter if they're toys or not? I could easily dismiss everything you've just said as well for that reason, leaving us nowhere.

If you're seriously interested in the health of this community, you'd be equally invested in pointing out negativity everywhere, regardless of whether or not it originates from a comment supporting or decrying GW.

Or, you could accept that this is a forum comprised of thousands of individuals, all with differing attitudes and outlooks. With that comes differing opinions and views, some of which you may not like. Just because its being critical of something doesn't necessarily make it negative, or at least not in the connotation it appears you're framing it.

Frankly, if enough people seem to complaining about something, shouldn't that indicate to you there's actually a problem? Maybe its best not to dismiss it because you don't like it.

 RatBot wrote:
Actually, to be fair, I think the 7th edition book set costs the same as the 6th edition book.

I actually bought the 6th edition rulebook, and at full retail no less (like a boob), and I can attest that it had a $75 price tag on it, just like WHF 8th edition. In fact I specifically remember dreading the new 40k edition because I had a feeling it would be priced like the new WHF rulebook (and it was).

Even if it were the same price, does it matter? You're still bending your customers over by making them pay $75, again, for what might as well have been the same damn book with a few changes that could have been implemented via FAQ/Errata, easily. Not to mention that when we went out and bought the 6th edition rulebook it was under the assumption that it would have at least a 4-year lifespan like every previous edition, and not only was it cut way shorter than that but the book itself cost way, way more than any previous edition had on top of that. Hence the complaints...we spent more money for an inferior product that we didn't even get our full money's worth for in the end.

You wouldn't have seen nearly as many complaints, I feel, if GW had just compiled a "6.5" PDF with all the changes and put it on their website as a free download, with reprints for the 6th edition rulebook with the incorporated changes coming later. Maybe even with a discount for people who want to upgrade their hard copy of the rules to the new one if they trade their old copy of 6th in, as something of an apology for cutting the edition cycle way shorter than normal and trying to retain some good will? But you know...that's probably just me being entitled, I guess. Expecting something resembling good service or even basic human decency from a company run by greedy fething knobheads who intentionally broke their game so they can later sell us a "patch", at full retail, that barely fixes anything at all and just causes all kinds of new problems.

Oh, and despite all that, I feel it's worth pointing out that while a lot of people were understandably upset that there was a new edition coming out far earlier than normal, some were still holding out hope that it would fix some of the issues currently plaguing the game, even if it meant having to fork out even more money for it. But it didn't.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 RatBot wrote:
Actually, to be fair, I think the 7th edition book set costs the same as the 6th edition book.

I actually bought the 6th edition rulebook, and at full retail no less (like a boob), and I can attest that it had a $75 price tag on it, just like WHF 8th edition. In fact I specifically remember dreading the new 40k edition because I had a feeling it would be priced like the new WHF rulebook (and it was).

Even if it were the same price, does it matter? You're still bending your customers over by making them pay $75, again, for what might as well have been the same damn book with a few changes that could have been implemented via FAQ/Errata, easily. Not to mention that when we went out and bought the 6th edition rulebook it was under the assumption that it would have at least a 4-year lifespan like every previous edition, and not only was it cut way shorter than that but the book itself cost way, way more than any previous edition had on top of that. Hence the complaints...we spent more money for an inferior product that we didn't even get our full money's worth for in the end.

You wouldn't have seen nearly as many complaints, I feel, if GW had just compiled a "6.5" PDF with all the changes and put it on their website as a free download, with reprints for the 6th edition rulebook with the incorporated changes coming later. Maybe even with a discount for people who want to upgrade their hard copy of the rules to the new one if they trade their old copy of 6th in, as something of an apology for cutting the edition cycle way shorter than normal and trying to retain some good will? But you know...that's probably just me being entitled, I guess. Expecting something resembling good service or even basic human decency from a company run by greedy fething knobheads who intentionally broke their game so they can later sell us a "patch", at full retail, that barely fixes anything at all and just causes all kinds of new problems.

Oh, and despite all that, I feel it's worth pointing out that while a lot of people were understandably upset that there was a new edition coming out far earlier than normal, some were still holding out hope that it would fix some of the issues currently plaguing the game, even if it meant having to fork out even more money for it. But it didn't.

When the rules came out, yeah, that was sucky. Now, however, you can get 7th rules for free (or cheap) in lots of places. What was worse were the codices -- they aren't cheap, and there are so many. Plus, many of the codices only have a little bit of non-fluff content at the back, so if you own 6th, the amount of 'new stuff' for some factions is pretty small.

My mistake, then. I wasn't trying to argue that $85 is a fair price, just that it wasn't any different than the previous edition's price (which I was incorrect about).

If the people complaining are such a minority, why don't GWs financial reports reflect that? They've been constantly raising prices and releasing more stuff at a faster pace yet their revenue keeps declining. If the vast majority of customers are so happy with GW, why is this happening? That's the question none of the white knights want to answer. It's much easier to call everyone holding a less than positive attitude about GW names like "whiner" and "hater" than it is to explain how a company would keep losing money if their customers are so happy with their products and services.

Now back to the topic. 7th did fix a lot of minor things from 6th and added the psychic phase which I like. However, they also created 10x more problems and the problems they created are much larger than the problems they fixed. The best way I can explain is if you got a couple paper cuts, put bandaids on them, then shot yourself in both feet and in the leg. Sure, you fixed the papercuts, but now you have 3 bullets in you. Adding the c'tan and titans to normal games, allowing unbound and the random tables of randomness for the sake of being random in maelstrom and in other aspects of the game are those bullets. From anecdotal evidence, about 90% of the customer base is unhappy with those aspects of 7th and the minor fixes they made don't make up for the giant feth ups. Especially considering we had to pay $85 2 years sooner for them.

 RatBot wrote:
My mistake, then. I wasn't trying to argue that $85 is a fair price, just that it wasn't any different than the previous edition's price (which I was incorrect about).

I can't recall the price and such, but they aren't directly comparable. 7th comes with 2 other books. Now, the value of the fluff and photo book might be questionable, but it isn't 0.

 wikkedj wrote:
Howdy folks,

I've taken some time away from the hobby, not by choice, but am starting to get back into the swing of things. I have a question however.....I thought we were on 6th edition these days, however when I look at lists lately I see 7th edition being referenced here and there. So....are we in 6th or 7th edition?

To the Op, welcome to Dakka general section, in another words, here is a image of the dirent versions of the new rulebook, to help you know whic book you have:
This is a three book realese, one have all the rules, another is full with pictures of the models and the third one is pure fluff


And this one is the mini rulebook, this one comes with the re-edition of the starter set dark vengance (wich beside they inclue the plastic chaos space marine champion)


Hope this help you in your return to 40k

Toofast wrote:
If the people complaining are such a minority, why don't GWs financial reports reflect that? They've been constantly raising prices and releasing more stuff at a faster pace yet their revenue keeps declining. If the vast majority of customers are so happy with GW, why is this happening? That's the question none of the white knights want to answer. It's much easier to call everyone holding a less than positive attitude about GW names like "whiner" and "hater" than it is to explain how a company would keep losing money if their customers are so happy with their products and services.

To be fair, it is a question they're perfectly willing to answer. It's just that more often than not that answer is basically "GW is still around so it must be doing something right.", or "lel armchair business"...but yeah.

GW itself has probably already decided that for them the loss is just inevitable, caused by the supposed decline or death of tabletop wargaming in general, and that there's literally nothing they can do to stop it, so they figure they'll just milk the IP for what its worth until the fateful day comes when the money stops coming in. Of course that's not actually happening and everyone but GW seems to be growing, but you know...they wouldn't know that. The world doesn't exist outside their fortress wall. They are the be-all, end-all and when they go tabletop gaming goes with it, apparently.

Toofast wrote:
Adding the c'tan and titans to normal games

They already did that in 6th, with Escalation. It was already considered a part of "normal" games since it was labeled as a supplement, as opposed to an expansion. You didn't need 7th to bring a titan to a game, 7th just made everything worse by finally throwing out the FOC entirely...while also letting you bring titans.

Toofast wrote:
From anecdotal evidence, about 90% of the customer base is unhappy with those aspects of 7th and the minor fixes they made don't make up for the giant feth ups. Especially considering we had to pay $85 2 years sooner for them.

I'm still not sure what GW supposedly "fixed" with 7th. Okay, so Taudar isn't a thing anymore (and basically every single other xenos alliance)...and that's it. Everything else is either the same or worse. The psychic phase doesn't really feel like an improvement to me, it just is.

7th is far better except for the allies matrix; 6th had Taudar but 7th has IoM shenanigans which is far cheesier IMO.

Do people really like the Psychic phase? It put me off 7th Ed straight away - that and the weapon grouping firing stuff.

Unbound, psychic phase, LOW's and mealstrom were what pushed me out.
And 7th coming out too soon. I thought "Well, 7th had better be really good and fix a lot of this if they want me to buy it."

 MWHistorian wrote:
Unbound, psychic phase, LOW's and mealstrom were what pushed me out.
And 7th coming out too soon. I thought "Well, 7th had better be really good and fix a lot of this if they want me to buy it."

Hah, all the reasons I love 7th edition. To each his own I guess...

 Mr Morden wrote:
Do people really like the Psychic phase? It put me off 7th Ed straight away - that and the weapon grouping firing stuff.

I don't mind the idea of having a psychic phase (I started in 2nd edition, so it's not a new thing) - it's the execution of it that puts me off. If they had taken the time to actually finish writing the rules before publishing them, they would have been better received.

6th was 85 dollars at release.

I remember earning each dollar and then watching it all go down the drain when 7th arrived.


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PS. I hate maelstrom so much. I thought I hated eternal war for its arbitrary aspects but the cards seemed geared towards Eldar specifically and our ridiculously random.