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No, Tau shouldn't be nerfed.
It's a nice codex to play.
You need to find ways to cope with it.

No, Eldar shouldn't be nerfed.
It's a nice codex to play.
You need to find ways to cope with it.

They shouldn't be nerfed. Only the problem units should be nerfed.

well theres really only one weapon system on one unit that nees it for Eldar so this Eldar codex would be fixed TOMORROW with an 18" range shield. Literally the entire codex looks fine to me but that 60" range made the Serpents NOT vehicles. which is silly.

but really that has nothing to do with Tau

 vipoid wrote:
No, Eldar shouldn't be nerfed.
It's a nice codex to play.
You need to find ways to cope with it.

Right. Nothing to add.

 Jancoran wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:


So yes, I am still talking about OP's point, and I'd rather not have YOU talking down to me.

Don't give me a reason and you wont find me doing it. Stay on Target.

Right. So no Walmart then.

Right now what you're telling me is that what?... Tau should be nerfed in these copious ways BECAUSE... they... what? they have synergy? Thats whats unfair to you as you defend INVISIBLE KHORNE DOGS?

Hoboy.

I never said that. Way to put words in my mouth.

The Tau Empire don't HAVE synergy. They REQUIRE synergy. You can break that synergy.

You can't break Vector Lock or supporting fire.

You'd defend Dante for 225 points but you'd curse a Riptide that costs that much? Whose going to win that fight? How many times out of 10? Yeah. and what turn will he be charging in? Turn 2? So i get to fire my cannon once and die?

Never said that.

When the Tzeentch Daemon levels 14 STR 5 AP 4 hits against me that never miss basically from a FLYING platform... then Psychic Shrieks my LD 7 or 8 unit, I'll take solace in my synergy wile I remove my Broadside unit and all its expensive Drones.

Psychic Shriek requires a roll to hit. Also, I said Psychic Spam was shenanigans, so don't put me on that side.

And when the single Khorne Dog squad made invisible by Be'Lakor eats my entire army on multicharges, I'll try to remember that synergy. Ill try to see how we should nerf the Tau Empire and give it no answers to ANY of that. yeah that'll be MORE fun.

Again, never said that. Also, Invisibile is really OP. So way to make claims I never said.

My bottom line point, which you seem to be fighting is that the Tau Empire is competitive and it does well as aforementioned and that's good for 40K but you cant NOT give an army ANY answer to certain threats. those days are gone man. The speed bump armies are gone now and everyone's got a fighting chance, everyone has a schtick. Hell ,the Tyranids are kicking arse at some tournies for the love of Pete and you couldn't count the number of Tyranid armies that went on sale the day that codex did.

Every army needs to have answers to the various 40K threats and the Tau have none for very important and predictable threats if you make the changes being talked about.

Since you seem to be throwing words I've never said in my face, let me level with you. I've never said Tau need to be completely nerfed, but they have a lot of stuff that ignore basic rules of the game. This isn't "responding to various threats" when you army outguns everything but Eldar and also makes assaulting them pointless.

Also, where are these Tyranids? Our group has two Tyranid armies. While they're pretty good, guess what? They run almost exactly the same list and none of them have Genestealers in it.

I get it, you're overly sensitive people are calling out Tau. Get over it, realize certain things are broken, and move on. Eldar is broken, Psychic Spam is broken, and certain Tau units are broken. If the majority is claiming it, don't you think there's some truth to it?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
No, Eldar shouldn't be nerfed.
It's a nice codex to play.
You need to find ways to cope with it.

Right. Nothing to add.

No, Imperial Knights/Daemon Psychic Spam/Lords of War shouldn't be nerfed.
It's a nice codex to play.
You need to find ways to cope with it.

I think what you don't like is losing.

Anti-air is necessary. You're saying take it away?

You ARE the one who said synergy was a problem. I think thats a slowed comment.

Supporting fire is just a few extra melee shots with a fancy mechanism attached. You want to steam roll us I assume without resistence? Sporting.

and spare me the "it needs to hit" crap. Tzeentch re-rolling 1, BS 5? Gimme a break.

And your "Khorne" one liner is absolutely desrving of me pointing out the most OBVIOUS build Khorne has. So give that a rest too. You know and I know that Tau without Markerlights \have no answer to it and WITH Marklerlights, they barely do.

No ones putting "words in your mouth, you VICTIM, and over simplifying in order to act obtuse isnt helping tyour cause.

Crusade away though. what I said wa that THESE proposed changes are too mucj. that is MY point.

 Jancoran wrote:
I think what you don't like is losing.

Again, putting words in my mouth.

Anti-air is necessary. You're saying take it away?

Again, never said this.

You ARE the one who said synergy was a problem. I think thats a slowed comment.

I said when everything has synergy that its wrong. Units are supposed to work together, but when everything benefits from each other, that's unfair to other codices that weren't written that way.

Supporting fire is just a few extra melee shots with a fancy mechanism attached. You want to steam roll us I assume without resistence? Sporting.

When you can jump your units away in the assault phase? Yeah, I think Supporting Fire is a bit much.

And your "Khorne" one liner is absolutely desrving of me pointing out the most OBVIOUS build Khorne has. So give that a rest too. You know and I know that Tau without Markerlights \have no answer to it and WITH Marklerlights, they barely do.

No ones putting "words in your mouth, you VICTIM, and over simplifying in order to act obtuse isnt helping tyour cause.

Crusade away though. what I said wa that THESE proposed changes are too mucj. that is MY point.

I'm sorry you got the bad touch at some tourneys from some Eldar and Daemon Psychic lists. Thats not my fault though. Also, I refuse to continue to debate with someone who needlessly uses caps lock and can't be bother to spell check his own list. You obviously are already biased by the aforementioned bad touch, so carry on.

 jreilly89 wrote:

Supporting fire is just a few extra melee shots with a fancy mechanism attached. You want to steam roll us I assume without resistence? Sporting.

When you can jump your units away in the assault phase? Yeah, I think Supporting Fire is a bit much.

I'm not sure what your saying here. Suits can only move during the assault phase on their controller's turn, and supporting fire only happens when a unit is being charged. The jump boost has nothing to do with supporting fire.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

Supporting fire is just a few extra melee shots with a fancy mechanism attached. You want to steam roll us I assume without resistence? Sporting.

When you can jump your units away in the assault phase? Yeah, I think Supporting Fire is a bit much.

I'm not sure what your saying here. Suits can only move during the assault phase on their controller's turn, and supporting fire only happens when a unit is being charged. The jump boost has nothing to do with supporting fire.

My point is suits can jump in, shoot, then jump back out. The few times when I can get in charge range, they have supporting fire. That seems like double dipping to me. Also, sorry I didn't really explain my point.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

Supporting fire is just a few extra melee shots with a fancy mechanism attached. You want to steam roll us I assume without resistence? Sporting.

When you can jump your units away in the assault phase? Yeah, I think Supporting Fire is a bit much.

I'm not sure what your saying here. Suits can only move during the assault phase on their controller's turn, and supporting fire only happens when a unit is being charged. The jump boost has nothing to do with supporting fire.

My point is suits can jump in, shoot, then jump back out. The few times when I can get in charge range, they have supporting fire. That seems like double dipping to me. Also, sorry I didn't really explain my point.

NP, just didn't really understand what you were saying.
I personally am fine with a supporting fire nerf (such as must pass a Ld test or something). I find I tend not to really use it that much anyway because I like to keep my troops spread out.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

Supporting fire is just a few extra melee shots with a fancy mechanism attached. You want to steam roll us I assume without resistence? Sporting.

When you can jump your units away in the assault phase? Yeah, I think Supporting Fire is a bit much.

I'm not sure what your saying here. Suits can only move during the assault phase on their controller's turn, and supporting fire only happens when a unit is being charged. The jump boost has nothing to do with supporting fire.

My point is suits can jump in, shoot, then jump back out. The few times when I can get in charge range, they have supporting fire. That seems like double dipping to me. Also, sorry I didn't really explain my point.

NP, just didn't really understand what you were saying.
I personally am fine with a supporting fire nerf (such as must pass a Ld test or something). I find I tend not to really use it that much anyway because I like to keep my troops spread out.

Really? Maybe a player thing. The Tau guy I play ALWAYS keeps his guys within 6" of each other.

It is double-dipping, and Supporting Fire is overkill anyway when they already brought back Overwatch. Even if they hadn't, though, being able to unload with every Tau unit in range is just stupid. One unit, maybe.

Anyway, if you want a possible explanation for why people get "sensitive" when the topic of Tau nerfs comes up, it's probably because people have been calling Tau overpowered and demanding they be nerfed pretty much ever since they were introduced into the game...regardless of their actual power level, even though they were always kind of a mediocre army and certainly never as bad as they are now even at their "peak". "Fish of Fury" was as bad as it ever got, which I personally don't even think counts since that came about in an edition where you could consolidate into new units after assaulting. It was easily fixed in 5th edition anyway by just letting people assault the damn devilfish, which is why people stopped doing it and suddenly Tau fell all the way down to trash tier (though 5th edition was so well-designed in comparison to what we have now that they were still playable, if you knew what you were doing...every single army had a "best of" list and even sub-par armies could compete).

We've had to listen to this gak for as long as we've been Tau players and it's fething old. Some of it just comes off as sour grapes, too, like the years-old bolters vs. pulse rifles issue. When you point out every single other advantage or perk that tactical Marines get compared to fire warriors all you get is a dismissive "doesn't matter", "doesn't matter", "doesn't matter"...all that matters is that Tau, a foul xenos race, have a basic gun that's one strength higher than the best gun in the UNIVARSE!, and god fething damn it that just can not be allowed. Damn all the reasons why this came to be, Marines are supposed to be the best, end of. Just one example. And when you add to that the fact that many people are quite adamant that Tau don't even "belong" in the universe in the first place, and often ask for the army to be removed from the game entirely instead of just nerfed, I don't know any other way to respond to that than with matched hostility. It feels like fighting a fething war sometimes; these people don't listen to reason, they don't even really care, they just want your army, and you, gone. Period. "Go play a different game you fething weeb, stop tainting my grimdark with your Gundam and Hello Kitty bullgak!"

And in that case it's just Tau, too. You never see anyone claim that Eldar don't "fit in" and that the game would be better off if Eldar just weren't around anymore, even though they're far more powerful than Tau are, and in my opinion their aesthetic clashes with the "grimdark" just as much, if not more...the only thing that makes Eldar "grimdark" is their fluff, and it can be argued that Tau are pretty much the same now if you've actually fething read any of the new stuff. With every new codex they've been making Tau darker and darker and it's to the point now where Aun'Va is coming off as some kind Emperor Palpatine-esque character. Before the evil in the Tau Empire was kinda subtle, now it's all but spelled out for you and slapping you in the face (especially in the Farsight supplement, where he's looking more and more like the valiant hero instead of the traitor turning his back on the Empire like before). The point is though, you never see that with any other army. When people criticize Tau they aren't just doing it for the sake of game balance, they're doing it because of the appearance of the models, or the fluff they personally don't like or find "boring" (And glorious Spehss Mahreens constantly overcoming everything you throw at them because Spehss Mahreens is interesting? Maybe if you're 12...), or some other nonsense factor that has no bearing on the game and is entirely up to opinion, and making it awful god damn personal while they're at it.

Hell, I don't want to have the most overpowered army in the game. I want to feel like my wins actually matter and that the quality of my codex didn't "skew" the result, I don't like feeling like I only won because I played Tau, or the opposite; like all throughout 5th edition where I felt like I was losing because my codex was too old. I really don't want to defend the current codex because it does have legitimate issues that need to be fixed or toned down, but I've been on the defensive for so long it is genuinely hard to see those issues sometimes because I naturally assume everyone falls into that group that just wants GW to Squat my army, or to nerf them so hard into the ground that everyone stops playing them and they achieve the same result, which is getting Tau off the table.

So...yeah, that's my explanation anyway. lol. I type too fething much, I'm going to eat tacos and put some models together now, god damn.

 jreilly89 wrote:


Really? Maybe a player thing. The Tau guy I play ALWAYS keeps his guys within 6" of each other.

Well I'm not really your usual tau player. I started with the older codexs, and usually play very mobile tau. I'm also a fluff purist and , although I love the look of the FW riptides, refuse to use them. Besides, unlike may people it seems, my main objective is not to win, but to have fun.

I still like mech Tau myself, even though it's a horrible list. Personally if I were to actually attempt playing 40k again, I would just pretend Supporting Fire doesn't exist and that all markerlights can do is boost BS up to 5 or launch a useless seeker missile.

Or just play with the old damn book, would probably be easier...

To be honest, the biggest nerf given to Tau in the recent editions was the inclusion of imperial knights. Take 3-ish against Tau, enjoy the easy win.

Sid:
I actually have been working on a combination of the 4th and 6th edition codexes, helped by some of my non-tau buddies (for balence reasons). It's actually not hard to get a well balanced tau codex that allows for gunlines, mech, and mobile tau, and much more. Basic things like getting rid of riptides, lowering devilfish costs, ect. Even stuff that would allow for all crisis lists without FE, a bit like IG tank armies. Essentially to represent different types of cadres other than the basic hunter. Like stealth insertion, rapid response, heavy armour, ect. Not that, knowing my record, it will ever get finished, but without certain things *CHOUGH*riptide*CHOUGH* the codex is not unbalanced at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mulletdude wrote:
To be honest, the biggest nerf given to Tau in the recent editions was the inclusion of imperial knights. Take 3-ish against Tau, enjoy the easy win.

Well that's true with most armies not built for it. Damn knights... *muttermutter*

The more I play Tau the more I come to realize people's hatred of Tau and claims of cheesiness have very little to do with how powerful Tau is at a given point but IMO with 2 things:

-Tau are not very fun to play against unless you beat them badly (and maybe not even then). At the most fundamental level, post people line up their toy soldiers to shoot some stuff, assault some stuff and maybe win the game. With Tau that hardly works: if you try to shoot them they either dance in and out of LoS with thrust moves or they simply overpower you by volume and strength of fire. If you try to assault them, most of their stuff is Jet Pack or (in) skimmers so good luck catching them (Deep Strike doesn't work great either due to Interceptor on hard hitting stuff). As far as I can tell, losing to Tau makes people feel their army didn't achieve much throughout the game.

-Options. Even if these options cost, and usually (apart from Riptides which get 2 slots to play with) are always a trade-off (Broadsides for example can get Skyfire OR Interceptor OR FnP OR Whatever), on paper Tau seem to be able to adapt to various stuff better than many other armies (again, purely personal opinion), which attracts jealousy.

I have noticed that with the second choice especially, but that it offset by tau, not only having no access to psykers of any kind, and actually having less unit choices than most.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I have noticed that with the second choice especially, but that it offset by tau, not only having no access to psykers of any kind, and actually having less unit choices than most.

Psychic powers aren't guaranteed... they are not a equivalent, you SHOULDN'T build a army around it, Tau are guarantees. In a game with as much randomness as 40k one less dice roll is that much better.

 Quickjager wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I have noticed that with the second choice especially, but that it offset by tau, not only having no access to psykers of any kind, and actually having less unit choices than most.

Psychic powers aren't guaranteed... they are not a equivalent, you SHOULDN'T build a army around it, Tau are guarantees. In a game with as much randomness as 40k one less dice roll is that much better.

I'm not saying that, I'm saying that lack of that helped make up for the amount of wargear choices, as well as the fact that the tau have/had relatively few choices. We had two elites choices, and only one of them were worth the points (crisis suits).

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I have noticed that with the second choice especially, but that it offset by tau, not only having no access to psykers of any kind, and actually having less unit choices than most.

Psychic powers aren't guaranteed... they are not a equivalent, you SHOULDN'T build a army around it, Tau are guarantees. In a game with as much randomness as 40k one less dice roll is that much better.

I'm not saying that, I'm saying that lack of that helped make up for the amount of wargear choices, as well as the fact that the tau have/had relatively few choices. We had two elites choices, and only one of them were worth the points (crisis suits).

...There are other armies in the same position *cough* with even less unit choices than Tau, that require allies to function properly.

 Quickjager wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I have noticed that with the second choice especially, but that it offset by tau, not only having no access to psykers of any kind, and actually having less unit choices than most.

Psychic powers aren't guaranteed... they are not a equivalent, you SHOULDN'T build a army around it, Tau are guarantees. In a game with as much randomness as 40k one less dice roll is that much better.

I'm not saying that, I'm saying that lack of that helped make up for the amount of wargear choices, as well as the fact that the tau have/had relatively few choices. We had two elites choices, and only one of them were worth the points (crisis suits).

...There are other armies in the same position *cough* with even less unit choices than Tau, that require allies to function properly.

Grey knight? I shouldn't think so.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I have noticed that with the second choice especially, but that it offset by tau, not only having no access to psykers of any kind, and actually having less unit choices than most.

Psychic powers aren't guaranteed... they are not a equivalent, you SHOULDN'T build a army around it, Tau are guarantees. In a game with as much randomness as 40k one less dice roll is that much better.

I'm not saying that, I'm saying that lack of that helped make up for the amount of wargear choices, as well as the fact that the tau have/had relatively few choices. We had two elites choices, and only one of them were worth the points (crisis suits).

...There are other armies in the same position *cough* with even less unit choices than Tau, that require allies to function properly.

Grey knight? I shouldn't think so.

Haha ironically I was thinking Miltarum Tempestus.

 Quickjager wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I have noticed that with the second choice especially, but that it offset by tau, not only having no access to psykers of any kind, and actually having less unit choices than most.

Psychic powers aren't guaranteed... they are not a equivalent, you SHOULDN'T build a army around it, Tau are guarantees. In a game with as much randomness as 40k one less dice roll is that much better.

I'm not saying that, I'm saying that lack of that helped make up for the amount of wargear choices, as well as the fact that the tau have/had relatively few choices. We had two elites choices, and only one of them were worth the points (crisis suits).

...There are other armies in the same position *cough* with even less unit choices than Tau, that require allies to function properly.

Grey knight? I shouldn't think so.

Haha ironically I was thinking Miltarum Tempestus.

I won't argue with that. Those were not particularly well designed. And isn't there a mini army that you auto lose with as well?

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I have noticed that with the second choice especially, but that it offset by tau, not only having no access to psykers of any kind, and actually having less unit choices than most.

Psychic powers aren't guaranteed... they are not a equivalent, you SHOULDN'T build a army around it, Tau are guarantees. In a game with as much randomness as 40k one less dice roll is that much better.

I'm not saying that, I'm saying that lack of that helped make up for the amount of wargear choices, as well as the fact that the tau have/had relatively few choices. We had two elites choices, and only one of them were worth the points (crisis suits).

...There are other armies in the same position *cough* with even less unit choices than Tau, that require allies to function properly.

Grey knight? I shouldn't think so.

Haha ironically I was thinking Miltarum Tempestus.

I won't argue with that. Those were not particularly well designed. And isn't there a mini army that you auto lose with as well?

Legion of the Damned, can't deploy till turn 2.

 Quickjager wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I have noticed that with the second choice especially, but that it offset by tau, not only having no access to psykers of any kind, and actually having less unit choices than most.

Psychic powers aren't guaranteed... they are not a equivalent, you SHOULDN'T build a army around it, Tau are guarantees. In a game with as much randomness as 40k one less dice roll is that much better.

Given that the widely agreed two best armies of 40k currently (Eldar and Daemons) make heavy use of the psychic phase (and Daemon Factory is actually 100% built on Psychic Powers) I beg to disagree.

Not only that, but while tau are blamed for having "too many options" at times, its even more absurd considering that with allies and all they got some of the LEAST options.

I mean, IoM is basically one big army if you look at it, with options dripping out of their ears. and even than, codex marines ALONE have more options than tau.
Eldar and DE are a mix and match and they compliment each other greatly. they can nearly be seen as one army.
Necrons have the crypteks carry more "relic" type items in that unit alone than entire factions have, not to mention they got strong unit in every posily combat role from basic infantry, to speed assault, gun platforms, air superiority and anything else.
Chaos can mix and match marines and demons and having the four gods each carry his own unique unit style, giving it a slew of options in just two books, yes many options are bad but that's a balance issue, not an options issue.

Tau? they are in the unique place with orks and nids of the "we got one thing we do good. but we can NEVER go outside of that zone". tau have a much smaller unit list size of the other two though, just about half the nids.
Yes they are great shooters and got nice mobility tricks, but that's ALL they are. they got nothing else for them, they can't even properly ally anything else! (in 6th where you could they WERE absurd. but that's past and gone)
There are vast parts of the game entirely barred from them. psykers? not even an option, CC? one named HQ that is half-decent, "endurance" builds? only semi possibly due to the absurdty of the riptide's IA. alpha strike? nope, nothing like a drop pod available. reserve manipulation? nope, nothing. even air superiority is only achieved by the "I can fly, but so can't you" path, and unlike the standard method it does not grant the user his own hard-to-kill superfast jets, despite the fact the investment is similar.

Tau has TWO builds-castle up in a gunline, or the "suit dance" type armies.
That's all they have. ever. and somehow even THAT'S "too much options" for some. yes, they can grant a suit a bazilion rules-because its NECECERY, they don't have a vast unit pool, they don't have allies to cover up their flaws. the suits NEED (and fluff-wise DO) cover most battle roles because NOTHING ELSE CAN. suits are your bread, butter, and jelly. they are the beginning and the end of the codex. they have GOT to carry alot on their shoulders.
When we finally get an extended empite, with all the minor races that are in fluff but got no game rules and models, than we can talk about taking off options from the suits, because other options would exist. but right now taking off the suit's versatility it is effectively saying "I don't want this army to be viable"

I just want to go out on a limb here and say, "I think Tau are considered OP because we are in the shooty edition and we're the odd-one-out."
Now what I mean by that is this, 40k 7th is a shooting edition of the game (big time) and Tau are a shooting army.
We don't need (or have the options to) try and shoe horn combat units into the army.
All other armies have these options and many players might make attempts to get those units into the army.
This instantly skews the game in the favour of the Tau army as we're dedicating units for the primary purpose of war (shooting).
Lets be honest melee is bringing a sword to a gun fight (there's a reason melee isn't used any more in reality).
Tau armies don't involve any randomness, all other armies do, think makes us unique in this edition.

Now I do think that there are 2 main big issues with Tau:
The Riptide (the literally biggest cause) and Markerlights
The Riptide would be fixed instantly if you made the IA AP3 or upped the cost
Markers would be fixed if 1 counter meant increase/decrease by 1

Additionally supporting fire and upgrades are issues.
Upgrades I'd say leave as they are (maybe some minor points tweaks)
Supporting fire might need to be a leadership test or something.

Until 40k levels out the issues in the gameplay there will always be issues. Tau are more of a product of circumstance with a couple of overly good options than a completely broken army.

Common misconception about the riptide.
The riptide itself, as it stands is not any problem.
The Ion Accelerator however-is absolutely idioticly overpowered, not by being that much of a great gun, but by nullfiying the riptide's weaknesses (the need to contantly NOVA-with the IA you just don't need to.)