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How exactly are tau "shutting down invisibility"?
You need to actually HIT with a markerlight first for a mere +1 to he BS of a single shooting unit

Who ISNT shutting down armor with low AP guns exactly? I find it hard to find a single army that has no low AP guns at all unless its a strict melee army, and it that case it probably has a fair share of ap2 melee attacks, again shutting down armor.
Armor is hardly a selling point in 40k.

How many armies do NOT have cover ignoring guns to begin with? sure tau are in the unique position of "every gun MIGHT ignore cover", but unlike most they don't have much noteworthy guns that comes with in built-in. or with its likely counterpart of indirect fire, that tau got NONE. I'm not sure any other codex is in that spot.

And where is the idiotic concept that "tau shuts down CC because supporting fire" come from? supporting fire is great in order to make the enemy feel a tiny punishment for his assault, but nothing half-decent at it is actually stopped by supporting fire.
Sure it will shut down most assault if the entire tau force is in a neat little bubble where everyone support everyone-but if you don't have the artillery pieces to punish that kind of behavior (AKA long range large blasts/multiblast) than you got nobody to blame but yourself! EVERY army has these.

As for "deamons are only good because invisibility", pure nonsense. they got the ability to generate an abnormal number of psychic dice so as long the psyker phase is not useless-they will be strong there. and screamerstar rerollable 2++ hardly cares for psychic checks to begin with. they are a solid book even if you erase the invisibility power off the BRB and replace it with a dud power.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Who ISNT shutting down armor with low AP guns exactly? I find it hard to find a single army that has no low AP guns at all unless its a strict melee army, and it that case it probably has a fair share of ap2 melee attacks, again shutting down armor.
Armor is hardly a selling point in 40k.

Tyranids. The only low-AP attacks we have are in CC from MCs - and CC is hardly a guaranteed thing in 7th edition.
edit: Forgot the Exocrine. With a 24" range at BS3 though, still not amazing.

How many armies do NOT have cover ignoring guns to begin with? sure tau are in the unique position of "every gun MIGHT ignore cover", but unlike most they don't have much noteworthy guns that comes with in built-in. or with its likely counterpart of indirect fire, that tau got NONE. I'm not sure any other codex is in that spot.

Nids have Impaler Cannons - 2 shots of S8 AP4 at 24" with BS3. Yeah, that's some noteworthy gak right there. At 55 points a pop.
No indirect fire? None? Are you really sure of that?
SMS does what now?

And where is the idiotic concept that "tau shuts down CC because supporting fire" come from? supporting fire is great in order to make the enemy feel a tiny punishment for his assault, but nothing half-decent at it is actually stopped by supporting fire.
Sure it will shut down most assault if the entire tau force is in a neat little bubble where everyone support everyone-but if you don't have the artillery pieces to punish that kind of behavior (AKA long range large blasts/multiblast) than you got nobody to blame but yourself! EVERY army has these.

It's not just Supporting Fire. The units that you need to catch in CC are the most mobile - JSJ is a thing in case you've never heard of it.

 BoomWolf wrote:
How many armies do NOT have cover ignoring guns to begin with?

Dark Eldar don't have a single one.

 BoomWolf wrote:
How exactly are tau "shutting down invisibility"?
You need to actually HIT with a markerlight first for a mere +1 to he BS of a single shooting unit

You do realize no other army can do this, right? But I can break it down for you.

The majority of shooting armies are Bs 4, with some being 3 and 1 being 2. You are, essentially, reset to BS 1 when this power comes into play.
Tau lose 2 points of BS to this power, while the majority of shooting armies lose 3 points. They are impacted less then the eldars, cron, SM, and so on.

Next, none of those armies have a way to improve their chances to hit. At all. Zero. Just a +1 to hit doubles your chances to hit. Can you think of another support gear that doubles your chances to hit?
Old school guide comes to mind, and it was arguably one of the most casted powers in its day. Tau just have to hit one time, at all, and they have a much better chance of doing some damage.

Shutting down was too far, but Tau have a prayer against it, while no other army has a hope in hell outside of flamer spam (which tau can also do).

 BoomWolf wrote:

Who ISNT shutting down armor with low AP guns exactly? I find it hard to find a single army that has no low AP guns at all unless its a strict melee army, and it that case it probably has a fair share of ap2 melee attacks, again shutting down armor.
Armor is hardly a selling point in 40k.

Necrons and nids come to mind, they use high AP weapons. Eldar tend not to use them since the shield is strong enough to get the job done, but they can in a pinch. It is really only the IoM forces that have a huge amount of low AP weapons, most xenos armies use weight of fire to carry the day. And they do it very well, and tau have some of the best weight of fire in the game.

 BoomWolf wrote:

How many armies do NOT have cover ignoring guns to begin with? sure tau are in the unique position of "every gun MIGHT ignore cover", but unlike most they don't have much noteworthy guns that comes with in built-in. or with its likely counterpart of indirect fire, that tau got NONE. I'm not sure any other codex is in that spot.

Chaos space marines have the sonic blaster, but plague marines don't get access to them, and are the commonly chosen troop.
Dark eldar do not have them.
Nids don't have too many, and I wouldn't call the gun noteworthy by any stretch.
Wolves tend not to take too many as well.

As you said, only Tau can have every gun ignore cover that they chose, while most armies have 1-2 ignore cover weapons that may not be ideally suited to the task at hand. Tau can always ensure this is the case
Keep in mind, the same wargear that grants ignore cover grants +1BS, so there isn't a reason not to take it.

 BoomWolf wrote:

And where is the idiotic concept that "tau shuts down CC because supporting fire" come from? supporting fire is great in order to make the enemy feel a tiny punishment for his assault, but nothing half-decent at it is actually stopped by supporting fire.
Sure it will shut down most assault if the entire tau force is in a neat little bubble where everyone support everyone-but if you don't have the artillery pieces to punish that kind of behavior (AKA long range large blasts/multiblast) than you got nobody to blame but yourself! EVERY army has these.

Let's not call anything idiotic unless you chose to use math to prove that it is the case. There is not need to be so rude, and it is something commonly felt on the forums.
So let's explore what you said here;
First, overwatch in general can be supported by markerlights so they have a good chance to hit. Much better than anyone else, and no one else can do this. Supporting fire allows you take more shots. Remember, you do not need to kill the squad attacking you, you just need to kill enough so close combat isn't reached. If overwatch would kill 1-2, supporting fire will kill 2-4. Add some markerlights, and the kills go up quickly, making it very difficult to reach CC for all but a very small amount of units (bikes, beasts).
Recall, CC is supposed to be a weakness of the tau, something other armies can use to fight their shooting advantage. With these abilities, many armies can not reach CC at all, and for others, only absurdly tough and fast units will (TWC for example).

As for the second, many armies do not have long range blast and multi/blast.
Space wolves and Blood Angles do not commonly take either
Eldar don't
Marines don't
Dark Eldar don't
Orks don't
Nids Don't

Most armies, in fact, do not take large blasts or multiblasts lists. Frag ML's are likely to only catch 2 guys in a blast, maybe 3 if spacing was done poorly. Add in 3+ to wound and 4+ save, and that is one guy? Hardly ideal. You need heavy fire power...which oddly enough, Tau have the best of.

 BoomWolf wrote:

As for "deamons are only good because invisibility", pure nonsense. they got the ability to generate an abnormal number of psychic dice so as long the psyker phase is not useless-they will be strong there. and screamerstar rerollable 2++ hardly cares for psychic checks to begin with. they are a solid book even if you erase the invisibility power off the BRB and replace it with a dud power.

You mean the screamerstar that requires cursed earth to be rolled and casted? Doesn't that make it care slightly about the psychic phase?
Change the powers and psychic phase and the deamons book is fine.

Akiasura wrote:
As for the second, many armies do not have long range blast and multi/blast.
Nids Don't

Slight correction -
Biovores are really good and cheap barrage platforms that are commonly taken. The Living Artillery Node formation makes them (and the required Exocrine) even better.

rigeld2 wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
As for the second, many armies do not have long range blast and multi/blast.
Nids Don't

Slight correction -
Biovores are really good and cheap barrage platforms that are commonly taken. The Living Artillery Node formation makes them (and the required Exocrine) even better.

Oh my, I forgot biovores existed.
They were crap for so long I forgot they were good now.
Remove nids from the lost then

I mean, S4 AP4 is nothing to write home about, but nothing says "weight of wounds" more than 3 large barrage blasts.

Akiasura wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
The army I built for my friend has EMP on the Fire Warriors and the Path Finders because of armor overload forces.

Veloctiy Trackers becaue Flyer overload is a thing. An actual thing that actually happens.

Has Markerlights because: Invisibility happens and Flyers happen when Velocity Trackers disappear.

Has Ignores cover weapons and/or capability because: Shrouded Jinking is a thing.

the meta has demanded that Tau Empire have answers, as it does for all armies. Leaving us with none is in no way a fair request when these things ARE things.

Now show me how other armies get the ability to
Shut down flyers
Shut down armor
Shut down invisibility
Shut down cover
Shut down close combat, cause support fire
All in one armybook, and without requiring the psychic phase.

And still have one of the best trooper weapons in the game.

Daemons are broken because of the core rulebook and invisibility. The codex itself isn't too bad, and if the powers were removed/changed, the dex would be fine.
Eldar need an overhaul. Banshees need a buff, WS a nerf, etc etc. But the topic is Tau here.

Other armies need to clamor about their own codex's. THIS ocex has answers and needs answers. So do they. If you want to blabor something, belabor the OTHER codex.

and the "trooper weapon" you mention is in part because they are inaccurate to start and dont have the special weapons options every other army gets. Fire Warriors arent toting three plasma guns around, now are they?

 Jancoran wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
The army I built for my friend has EMP on the Fire Warriors and the Path Finders because of armor overload forces.

Veloctiy Trackers becaue Flyer overload is a thing. An actual thing that actually happens.

Has Markerlights because: Invisibility happens and Flyers happen when Velocity Trackers disappear.

Has Ignores cover weapons and/or capability because: Shrouded Jinking is a thing.

the meta has demanded that Tau Empire have answers, as it does for all armies. Leaving us with none is in no way a fair request when these things ARE things.

Now show me how other armies get the ability to
Shut down flyers
Shut down armor
Shut down invisibility
Shut down cover
Shut down close combat, cause support fire
All in one armybook, and without requiring the psychic phase.

And still have one of the best trooper weapons in the game.

Daemons are broken because of the core rulebook and invisibility. The codex itself isn't too bad, and if the powers were removed/changed, the dex would be fine.
Eldar need an overhaul. Banshees need a buff, WS a nerf, etc etc. But the topic is Tau here.

Other armies need to clamor about their own codex's. THIS ocex has answers and needs answers. So do they. If you want to blabor something, belabor the OTHER codex.

So instead of belaboring this one codex, you feel we should belabor every single other codex out there?
Is that...really what you believe?

 Jancoran wrote:

and the "trooper weapon" you mention is in part because they are inaccurate to start and dont have the special weapons options every other army gets. Fire Warriors arent toting three plasma guns around, now are they?

Let's be clear, 1 troop choice has access to 3 plasma guns, Grey hunters, who are another excellent troop choice. I would hardly call Bs 3 inaccurate, although Bs 4 is the majority, because markerlights are a thing. But you do have a point about their inaccuracy
Their chance to kill something is equal to a marine, since they have -1 to hit, but +1 to wound, have better range, are cheaper, and can hurt tanks easier. Markerlights help with their weakness too.
Also, why is trooper weapon in " "? It is a weapon on a trooper, is it not?
So you can't actually refute any of my points at all then?

 Jancoran wrote:

and the "trooper weapon" you mention is in part because they are inaccurate to start and dont have the special weapons options every other army gets. Fire Warriors arent toting three plasma guns around, now are they?

Akiasura wrote:
Let's be clear, 1 troop choice has access to 3 plasma guns, Grey hunters, who are another excellent troop choice. I would hardly call Bs 3 inaccurate, although Bs 4 is the majority, because markerlights are a thing. But you do have a point about their inaccuracy
Their chance to kill something is equal to a marine, since they have -1 to hit, but +1 to wound, have better range, are cheaper, and can hurt tanks easier. Markerlights help with their weakness too.
Also, why is trooper weapon in " "? It is a weapon on a trooper, is it not?
So you can't actually refute any of my points at all then?

Err, hate to burst your bubble, but vets can have 3 meltas or plasmas at Bs 4, with a 4+ save, so they aren't instakilled by the pulse weaponry.


In terms of the gneral conversation, if you did all these things, i.e. lock down tau accuracy, AA, remove buffmander for markerlighs so the rest of the army sucks, then what have you got?

A bad army that is unenjoyable when playing, and no one will want to play it, cause they will have nothing to combat the meta, because as Jancoran said, flyer overload is a thing, invisibility overload is a thing, and shrouded jinking overload is a thing.

Allow assaulting from ALL vehicles again, and the Tau will cry.

bibotot wrote:
Allow assaulting from ALL vehicles again, and the Tau will cry.

we are experimenting with this and overwatch from vehicles

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

and the "trooper weapon" you mention is in part because they are inaccurate to start and dont have the special weapons options every other army gets. Fire Warriors arent toting three plasma guns around, now are they?

Akiasura wrote:
Let's be clear, 1 troop choice has access to 3 plasma guns, Grey hunters, who are another excellent troop choice. I would hardly call Bs 3 inaccurate, although Bs 4 is the majority, because markerlights are a thing. But you do have a point about their inaccuracy
Their chance to kill something is equal to a marine, since they have -1 to hit, but +1 to wound, have better range, are cheaper, and can hurt tanks easier. Markerlights help with their weakness too.
Also, why is trooper weapon in " "? It is a weapon on a trooper, is it not?
So you can't actually refute any of my points at all then?

Err, hate to burst your bubble, but vets can have 3 meltas or plasmas at Bs 4, with a 4+ save, so they aren't instakilled by the pulse weaponry.

I did forget Vets are a troop choice.
So, 2 troops out of over ten codexes can have 3 plasma guns. I would be willing to bet that Tau firewarriors compete with vets for points, and possibly Grey hunters as well. And these are excellent troop choices. My point stands.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

In terms of the gneral conversation, if you did all these things, i.e. lock down tau accuracy, AA, remove buffmander for markerlighs so the rest of the army sucks, then what have you got?

A bad army that is unenjoyable when playing, and no one will want to play it, cause they will have nothing to combat the meta, because as Jancoran said, flyer overload is a thing, invisibility overload is a thing, and shrouded jinking overload is a thing.

Strawman, I never suggested removing all of these things. I am suggesting that all of these things together are too far, and make playing Tau unfun. It basically feels that the game is decided in the list building stage even moreso than usual.
These issues are something every army in the game has to face, and they do it without the crutches the Tau force relies on. Most of them, outside of invisbility, are coming from a few codexes going too far that will hopefully be nerfed soon.

Fair enough, and for the vets points, a squad of 12 with shas'ui is about 30 points more expensive, but there are two more dudes and you don't have to pay for a 4+.

I think this is a blatant case of:

 TheCadreofFi'rios wrote:
I think this is a blatant case of:

This guy knows where its at.

Akiasura wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
The army I built for my friend has EMP on the Fire Warriors and the Path Finders because of armor overload forces.

Veloctiy Trackers becaue Flyer overload is a thing. An actual thing that actually happens.

Has Markerlights because: Invisibility happens and Flyers happen when Velocity Trackers disappear.

Has Ignores cover weapons and/or capability because: Shrouded Jinking is a thing.

the meta has demanded that Tau Empire have answers, as it does for all armies. Leaving us with none is in no way a fair request when these things ARE things.

Now show me how other armies get the ability to
Shut down flyers
Shut down armor
Shut down invisibility
Shut down cover
Shut down close combat, cause support fire
All in one armybook, and without requiring the psychic phase.

And still have one of the best trooper weapons in the game.

Daemons are broken because of the core rulebook and invisibility. The codex itself isn't too bad, and if the powers were removed/changed, the dex would be fine.
Eldar need an overhaul. Banshees need a buff, WS a nerf, etc etc. But the topic is Tau here.

Tau need to:

Shut down flyers because their own flyers suck. How would Tau compete with a let's say Necron Bakery without having neither fliers nor the ability to shut down fliers?
Shut down armor because their own armor sucks (Hammerhead with Longstrike is the single usable Tau tank and that's one per army). How would Tau compete with a heavy armor army (Kinghts, AM Pask&Stuff, Necron AV 13 wall) without having neither armor nor the ability to shut down armor?
Shut down invisibility: This is an ability pretty much unique to the Tau, but on the other hand Tau are in the minority of armies that have no psychic phase and no special special defense whatsoever. combating Invisibility is just a corner case in which they do.
Shut down close combat: tau shut down CC somewhat, but on the other hand they are the absolutely worst CC army in the game. Most other armies have no ways to shut down CC but also have ways to hold their own in CC. Tau don't.

How do you think a Tau army that lacked even some of the above would play and how it would be anything else than absolute bottom tier (since they would auto-lose to armies employing the tactics they can no longer counter, which are pretty common)?

LordBlades wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
The army I built for my friend has EMP on the Fire Warriors and the Path Finders because of armor overload forces.

Veloctiy Trackers becaue Flyer overload is a thing. An actual thing that actually happens.

Has Markerlights because: Invisibility happens and Flyers happen when Velocity Trackers disappear.

Has Ignores cover weapons and/or capability because: Shrouded Jinking is a thing.

the meta has demanded that Tau Empire have answers, as it does for all armies. Leaving us with none is in no way a fair request when these things ARE things.

Now show me how other armies get the ability to
Shut down flyers
Shut down armor
Shut down invisibility
Shut down cover
Shut down close combat, cause support fire
All in one armybook, and without requiring the psychic phase.

And still have one of the best trooper weapons in the game.

Daemons are broken because of the core rulebook and invisibility. The codex itself isn't too bad, and if the powers were removed/changed, the dex would be fine.
Eldar need an overhaul. Banshees need a buff, WS a nerf, etc etc. But the topic is Tau here.

Tau need to:

Shut down flyers because their own flyers suck. How would Tau compete with a let's say Necron Bakery without having neither fliers nor the ability to shut down fliers?
Shut down armor because their own armor sucks (Hammerhead with Longstrike is the single usable Tau tank and that's one per army). How would Tau compete with a heavy armor army (Kinghts, AM Pask&Stuff, Necron AV 13 wall) without having neither armor nor the ability to shut down armor?
Shut down invisibility: This is an ability pretty much unique to the Tau, but on the other hand Tau are in the minority of armies that have no psychic phase and no special special defense whatsoever. combating Invisibility is just a corner case in which they do.
Shut down close combat: tau shut down CC somewhat, but on the other hand they are the absolutely worst CC army in the game. Most other armies have no ways to shut down CC but also have ways to hold their own in CC. Tau don't.

How do you think a Tau army that lacked even some of the above would play and how it would be anything else than absolute bottom tier (since they would auto-lose to armies employing the tactics they can no longer counter, which are pretty common)?

While these are all valid points the Razzroshark strikefighter with a missile pod instead of burst cannon actually owns other flyers, in my experience, while still being able to pose a very real threat to ground forces..

LordBlades wrote:

Tau need to:

Shut down flyers because their own flyers suck. How would Tau compete with a let's say Necron Bakery without having neither fliers nor the ability to shut down fliers?

How do you see a pure-DE list dealing with that list?

LordBlades wrote:

Shut down armor because their own armor sucks (Hammerhead with Longstrike is the single usable Tau tank and that's one per army). How would Tau compete with a heavy armor army (Kinghts, AM Pask&Stuff, Necron AV 13 wall) without having neither armor nor the ability to shut down armor?

Wait... what are we talking about here? What are Tau supposedly losing? I thought all this started because someone suggested making markerlights reduce cover saves by 1 for each markerlight used? What's killing their ability to shut down armour?

LordBlades wrote:

Shut down invisibility: This is an ability pretty much unique to the Tau, but on the other hand Tau are in the minority of armies that have no psychic phase and no special special defense whatsoever.

Necrons say 'hi'. So do pure-DE, for that matter.

Also, should we really be balancing armies around powers that have no right to exist in the first place?

LordBlades wrote:

Shut down close combat: tau shut down CC somewhat, but on the other hand they are the absolutely worst CC army in the game. Most other armies have no ways to shut down CC but also have ways to hold their own in CC. Tau don't.

No, but they have ways to escape combat and kill melee units before they can ever reach combat.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

and the "trooper weapon" you mention is in part because they are inaccurate to start and dont have the special weapons options every other army gets. Fire Warriors arent toting three plasma guns around, now are they?

Akiasura wrote:
Let's be clear, 1 troop choice has access to 3 plasma guns, Grey hunters, who are another excellent troop choice. I would hardly call Bs 3 inaccurate, although Bs 4 is the majority, because markerlights are a thing. But you do have a point about their inaccuracy
Their chance to kill something is equal to a marine, since they have -1 to hit, but +1 to wound, have better range, are cheaper, and can hurt tanks easier. Markerlights help with their weakness too.
Also, why is trooper weapon in " "? It is a weapon on a trooper, is it not?
So you can't actually refute any of my points at all then?

Err, hate to burst your bubble, but vets can have 3 meltas or plasmas at Bs 4, with a 4+ save, so they aren't instakilled by the pulse weaponry.


In terms of the gneral conversation, if you did all these things, i.e. lock down tau accuracy, AA, remove buffmander for markerlighs so the rest of the army sucks, then what have you got?

A bad army that is unenjoyable when playing, and no one will want to play it, cause they will have nothing to combat the meta, because as Jancoran said, flyer overload is a thing, invisibility overload is a thing, and shrouded jinking overload is a thing.

Over simplifying what I said doesnt do a thing for you.

Bottom line there are legitimate identifiable threats and we must have answers. Having the only answer we DO posess (and we do) is nonsense.

What's all this "woe is me" from DE players? I thought that GK players were the whiniest bunch

SGTPozy wrote:
What's all this "woe is me" from DE players? I thought that GK players were the whiniest bunch

I wasn't aware that pointing out facts and asking reasonable questions was considered "whining". How remiss of me for not realising that.

LordBlades wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
The army I built for my friend has EMP on the Fire Warriors and the Path Finders because of armor overload forces.

Veloctiy Trackers becaue Flyer overload is a thing. An actual thing that actually happens.

Has Markerlights because: Invisibility happens and Flyers happen when Velocity Trackers disappear.

Has Ignores cover weapons and/or capability because: Shrouded Jinking is a thing.

the meta has demanded that Tau Empire have answers, as it does for all armies. Leaving us with none is in no way a fair request when these things ARE things.

Now show me how other armies get the ability to
Shut down flyers
Shut down armor
Shut down invisibility
Shut down cover
Shut down close combat, cause support fire
All in one armybook, and without requiring the psychic phase.

And still have one of the best trooper weapons in the game.

Daemons are broken because of the core rulebook and invisibility. The codex itself isn't too bad, and if the powers were removed/changed, the dex would be fine.
Eldar need an overhaul. Banshees need a buff, WS a nerf, etc etc. But the topic is Tau here.

Tau need to:

Shut down flyers because their own flyers suck. How would Tau compete with a let's say Necron Bakery without having neither fliers nor the ability to shut down fliers?
Shut down armor because their own armor sucks (Hammerhead with Longstrike is the single usable Tau tank and that's one per army). How would Tau compete with a heavy armor army (Kinghts, AM Pask&Stuff, Necron AV 13 wall) without having neither armor nor the ability to shut down armor?
Shut down invisibility: This is an ability pretty much unique to the Tau, but on the other hand Tau are in the minority of armies that have no psychic phase and no special special defense whatsoever. combating Invisibility is just a corner case in which they do.
Shut down close combat: tau shut down CC somewhat, but on the other hand they are the absolutely worst CC army in the game. Most other armies have no ways to shut down CC but also have ways to hold their own in CC. Tau don't.

How do you think a Tau army that lacked even some of the above would play and how it would be anything else than absolute bottom tier (since they would auto-lose to armies employing the tactics they can no longer counter, which are pretty common)?

Most of the armies in the game do not have the answers to all of these things. Many can not answer even one of these outside of armor.
Again, you are missing the point. The point isn't that Tau do/don't need answers to all of these things.
The point is, why do Tau and tau alone get answers to all of these when no other codex does?

Jancoran, I literally went through your post and answered every point. How is that simplifying it?
You, in fact, strawmanned me by constructing an argument I never made, and argued from that point of view. If anyone is messing with the other's argument, it is yourself.
Again, why do Tau get answers to all the threats running around, but no other codex does?

I played Tau myself, with a small army, and played against them, on games from 1,2k to 2,5k on a friendly and hard environment, with more than three armies in the past. The thing I noticed while playing with them and against them is that the main problem seems to be that every weakness the Tau army has can somehow be nullified. Sometimes it is easier to do this, and sometimes it is harder to do it.

For example:

Guy 1: Hm Markerlights are good, let’s make them heavy so that it can be a tough choice if you want to move or not.
Guy 2: Yeah but make it 36", no cover saves against them, and give the guys holding them a scout move.
Guy 3: Yeah and also give it to drones too so that they can benefit from JSJ, better toughness and a better armor save and the possibility to fire markerlights with BS5.

Guy 1: The broadsides have BS3 and their weapons are heavy too, should be good for enemies to keep them out of range.
Guy 2: Yeah but give the rockets 36" and the other weapon 60" and make everything twinlinked for free to compensate for BS3.

Guy 1: CC should be the weakness of the army, as tau are clearly focused on shooting.
Guy 2: Lucky us that the shooting phase is way more dominant than the assault phase, but to be sure give them a better overwatch for free, and make it possible for the markerlights to boost the BF when firing snap shots.

Guy 1: Krisis are some cool multifunction units, with many strong weapons, which are somewhat short in range and with T4 and 3+ Armor it shouldn´t be so hard to kill them.
Guy 2: Yeah but give them JSJ so that they have the potential to get up to two movement phases for free, so that they are not in any kind of danger after shooting in 9 out of 10 cases. Oh and let’s not forget that every single one can deepstrike to make up for that short range they have and that they can ignore most terrain freely to get that heavy weapons in range.

Guy 2: Let´s also find a way to ignore some other rules like night fighting and blind for free or 1 point only, and make it so that they can defend themselves against deep striking units, for 5 points on all the heavy weapon systems.

So to make a long story short, I don´t think that Tau are far too strong, maybe the riptide with the IA is a problem, but besides him, the Tau simply needs some weaknesses where there isn´t a dirt cheap way to get around it.

Akiasura wrote:

Again, why do Tau get answers to all the threats running around, but no other codex does?

I'm not missing the point. i GET your point. I just think you're misdirecting your ire and allowing (dare i call it Codex envy?) to blind you to the reality that nerfing the Tau codex doesnt accomplish anything.

I play Dark Eldar and Coven. Their lack of anti-Psyker ability hurts them badly, but they also have the means to knock out the most heinous of the caster types (FMC's) so their defense is a good offense unfortunately. Im not excited about needing planes in my Dark Eldar list, but it is only my own stubborness that would cause me to not make use of the answers i DO have. Now having said all that...what in bloody blue blazes does my Dark Eldar codex's shortcoming have to do with Tau? So Tau are better at something than i am. So what! they cant fight their way out of a wet paper bag and when I get to their front lines, I am going to smash their faces in, with alacrity and conviction. No amount of Overwatch will save them. So what MY Coven codex DOESN'T have isn't WHY a Tau Empire codex should be nerfed!!! That just makes no sense at all and is absurd to suggest. We didn't ALL get to be 6 ft tall either but some of us figured out how to use what we did have and used it. I own a business and the 6 footers work for me now. Done. Same for Codex's. We cant ALL have a Centurion Star. Sorry. That's not a reason to rob space marines of theirs (and no, I don't own any Centurions, nor do I own Tigurius, for the record).

 Jancoran wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

Again, why do Tau get answers to all the threats running around, but no other codex does?

I'm not missing the point. i GET your point. I just think you're misdirecting your ire and allowing (dare i call it Codex envy?) to blind you to the reality that nerfing the Tau codex doesnt accomplish anything.

I also own a Tau army, so I doubt it's envy of any kind. I bought one when they came out and have enjoyed the mobile shooting elements, since I don't play my eldar as much as I used to.

 Jancoran wrote:

I play Dark Eldar and Coven. Their lack of anti-Psyker ability hurts them badly, but they also have the means to knock out the most heinous of the caster types (FMC's) so their defense is a good offense unfortunately. Im not excited about needing planes in my Dark Eldar list, but it is only my own stubborness that would cause me to not make use of the answers i DO have. Now having said all that...what in bloody blue blazes does my Dark Eldar codex's shortcoming have to do with Tau?

The only strengths that matter are relative ones. While the Dark Eldar alone do not effect the Tau codex, when you compare all of the codexes to Tau and see they have answers to everything while others have shortcomings...well...they need to be toned down. I would prefer it was the difficulty of getting into CC with them that was taken down a bit, and possibly the riptide upgrade.

 Jancoran wrote:

So Tau are better at something than i am. So what! they cant fight their way out of a wet paper bag and when I get to their front lines, I am going to smash their faces in, with alacrity and conviction. No amount of Overwatch will save them.

This is debatable. It seems a lot of people that play other armies feel Tau are very difficult to get into close combat, and the edition itself doesn't really favor it. Not for all armies (the BA formation will probably wreck tau, for example).
Also, it is more than one thing. Tau are better against fliers, have arguably better shooting against everything that isn't a MC (possibly better against flying MC, I'd have to run the numbers), and avoid close combat better. They also deal with stars a lot better as well, a big problem.

 Jancoran wrote:

So what MY Coven codex DOESN'T have isn't WHY a Tau Empire codex should be nerfed!!! That just makes no sense at all and is absurd to suggest. We didn't ALL get to be 6 ft tall either but some of us figured out how to use what we did have and used it. I own a business and the 6 footers work for me now. Done. Same for Codex's. We cant ALL have a Centurion Star. Sorry. That's not a reason to rob space marines of theirs (and no, I don't own any Centurions, nor do I own Tigurius, for the record).

Caps lock and !!! doesn't make you right, let's tone it down. You kinda flew off the handle there at the end. If it makes you feel better, I am not 6' tall, though my girlfriend is, and I boss around 1200 students a semester. I occasionally have to stop them from going to medical school or graduating as well.

It's not the one codex, it's the fact that most codexes have 1 weakness that is a style of the army, and they can't overcome this.
Eldar are fragile (WS compensate for this, and are often complained about because of it), Orks lack armor saves and accuracy, Space Marines are often outnumbered, De vehicles die to a stiff breeze if struck...
But Tau don't have a generic weakness that comes into play. They avoid CC better than most armies can enter it, through various means. They have an answer for everything, while most codexes do not.

Tau, Eldar, and Crons will most likely be nerfed, it seems to be the way the codexes are going tbh.

And I was not asking for a Centurion star. I hate the idea of deathstars in this or any game. It's stupid. Just one overpowered unit going around smashing faces, and, barring bad luck or a similar unit, can not be stopped. It ruins the game and is extremely unfluffy and boring to see and play against.
Do not suggest this is what I was asking for.

What is it with these forums and strawmanning? And slippery slopes?

Not gonna' "tone it down". If you cant handle words used for emphasis, try another forum.

You used "arguably" a lot in these sentences and that's exactly right. It is and I do argue it.

I can get my guys into close combat and I dont whine about it when a few die on the way in. My Night Lords, my Coven, My Dark eldar, my Grey Knights, my Ravenguard and so on all get their just fine. Its a MYTH, this "impossibility" of getting into melee with them and no one was crying for Tau when they were constantly hapless victims, now did they? Now they can fight back a bit and people dont like it. The worst part of human nature, I swear. the crab pot effect.

You know, sometimes I lose. and sometimes when I lose, Tau happened to be the opponent. I think that had a little to do with the General. I own like 11 Codex armies now and so i think I have a pretty decent view of whether or not the CODEX beat me.

The Codex doesn't win my games for me. doesnt lose them either. At some point the General needs to adjust and the codex needs to fad from your mind because honestly, the bitching and complaining on this particular forum is crazy.

Even I, with my blog dedicated to unusual solutions to difficult 40K problems sometimes give in to the want to be critical. I for example hate Tzeentch Flying Monstrous Creature Circus's. I feel of all the army forms, it alone stands tall as one that you can beat but the entire game feels like a loss even when you pull it out. I admit to an open hatred of that list because its absolutely just not fun. It doesnt feel like an epic battle and thats what i like about 40K's scale of fights.

But the "not fun" factor plays a lot bigger with me than the cries for game designers heads.

I don't play these Triple Tide power lists and most of my blog speaks to that. So i dont GET the hairy eyeball near as often from opponents. Im a breathe of fresh air when my weird armies show up just because they are different. But Im only able to play those types of lists if they ALSO provide answers to these key issues I outlined.

I dunno. It seems like a lot to do about nothing. Allies rules scrwed some things up for Tau Generals because of some of the craziness it allowed. I can see hate for allies. I can see hate for abusive players.

 Jancoran wrote:
Its a MYTH, this "impossibility" of getting into melee with them

It's not a MYTH.

and no one was crying for Tau when they were constantly hapless victims, now did they? Now they can fight back a bit and people dont like it. The worst part of human nature, I swear. the crab pot effect.

Actually, people were. I was.

But that doesn't agree with your assertions of fact so you'll ignore it.

 TheCadreofFi'rios wrote:
I think this is a blatant case of:

I'm detecting a large amount of handwavium here. I'll have to remember this picture next time people bitch about GW.