How I think Tau should be nerfed

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**Martel732**

Aren't Nids super good now with Flyrant spam? Or are you not using that build?

**Xenomancers**

Savageconvoy wrote:
How is Jump shoot jump really a problem? I don't remember it being that big of a concern in 5th.

But I really think you should give LOS blocking terrain a try before just writing off Tau and Eldar as over costed. Try playing where half the army can't support half of the field. It really cuts down on Tau's synergy. It helps CC units that start on the board get across field safely.

every board needs a little LOS blocking terrain. You don't even need actually LOS blocking - you can just agree that you cant shoot over an area...(a dense acid fog over a pond - or something - be creative.) If they refuse to let you add some terrain pieces to the board don't play them.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BoomWolf wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I can't use it because no one with play without their "firing lanes". Plus, the primary local store doesn't have much LOS blocking terrain.

I'm not completely convinced LOS blocking terrain is going to help that much vs WS spam or jump-shoot-jump shenanigans anyway. I think Eldar and Tau are just way too effective for their point costs.

OFC they want their "firing lanes", because it makes it so damn easy for shooting armies to win!
Proper terrain forces them to actually THINK about unit placing, zone control and movement.

Yes, it will also help the JSJ units-but these are the OTHER side of said armies, some units are desigened to be a terrain user, some are desigened to be open field powerhouses. by having proper terrain a mix of the two before needed, making the army not as narrow-minded on doing one thing that has no restrictions and as such exterminate anything with ease.

With more LOS terrain crisis suits will be better, yes. but with no LOS terrain? they just dont use crisis suits, because the "open field" units have superior firepower once they get easy firing lines.
There is a point where there is too much LOS blocking and crisis suits and other JSJ units suddenly become the pieces of "feth this dung", but we are talking on zone mortalis/space hulk levels of LOS blocking here.

As for WS spam, it really helps alot against it too. because half the problem with them is the fact their insane range lets them touch ANYTHING on the map. some LOS terrain-and suddenly not every WS can shoot any unit.
I'm still sure that given it shield's fluff it as supposed to be 6" gun and somehow it became 60" and nobody noticed, but looking at the existing rules-its a huge range gun that ignores cover, with no LOS terrain there is simply no answer to it.

I refuse to play against wave serpents unless it's a torny - a 60 inch ignore cover d6+1 str 7 gun? that weapon alone would justify a 140 point cost on a armor 12 vehicle.

**Savageconvoy**

You're not going to be TFG for not giving in to all your opponents demands on table layout. You can have plenty of shooting lanes and still have LOS blocking terrain just to stop some units from having complete LOS to every model on the table.

I can't think of a game I've had where I've had a a single unit able to really see more than 50% of the table at a time.

I honestly have problems with assault some times because too many units are able to hide behind LOS blocking pieces and move almost all the way across the table unseen.

**rigeld2**

Martel732 wrote:
Aren't Nids super good now with Flyrant spam? Or are you not using that build?

I've never spammed anything but dakkafexes - even when they were subpar.
My typical list is 2 Flyrants, a Tervigon, gaunts, and dakkafexes. I haven't played since the pods came out but it's changing significantly.

**Sidstyler**

Martel732 wrote:
There are plenty of complaints about Tau/Eldar even with fancy terrain.

There always have been, though. Even when both armies were mid to bottom-tier, just because people like to complain about those armies. Tau always get it no matter what because people just hate Tau. It finally relented towards the end of 5th edition because certain other armies were just so dominant then. People stopped playing Tau, they stopped placing in tournaments...it got to the point where insisting Tau were "OP" would just make you look stupid or bad at the game.

Like it was said, a lot of Tau complaints over the years have been completely unfounded, and stem more from a personal dislike for the army's appearance and a desire to see them removed from the game more than anything in the rules. So it's kinda hard to really pinpoint what exactly needs to be fixed because people have bitched about literally everything in the Tau codex at some point or another, and complain constantly about everything again since the update, from the brand new additions to things that didn't change much or even at all.

Martel732 wrote:
Aren't Nids super good now with Flyrant spam? Or are you not using that build?

Aren't Marines super good now with bike spam?

**Martel732**

I never once hated on Tau until they got the ability to table a 5th ed BA list in 2.5 turns while taking minimal losses in exchange. But then, the ion accelerator will do that for you. That, and the ability to battle-brother in Eldar.

Now the Eldar problem is gone, but they still have super-undercosted Riptides that they can now take as many of as they like. However, at the same time, I think that many Tau units could stand for buffs. So I'm hardly a Tau hater. I'm just sick of being hit with the same weapon system over and over.

I'll take on marine bike spam any day of the week over Tau or Eldar. They at least have to move a bit in order to kill me. BA, of course, can't do bike spam without unbound.

**BoomWolf**

With all fairness, a 5th edition BA list in the 6th edition (where the IA was only presented) was dominated by even the supbar dark angels.
And tau got much weaker from that day with the rule changes of 7th, most of their shenanigans were based on IC+riptide or allies combos (or both at once)

As for the super-undercosted riptides, for the love of god stop saying that.
The RIPTIDE is fine, the ION ACCELERATOR is broken, learn to separate elements! its comments like these from people who does not make proper separations that makes GW completely miss the point when reworking a codex.

As for bikes having to at least move a bit in order to kill you-so would tau if you had decent terrain. I play on terrain heavy tables and my tau rarely stay put.
Sure the hammerheads sit back, perks of a 72" gun with front 13 tanks-but I got a large number of suits deep striking and dancing around, and even my fire warriors tend to push forward, because I need to get better positions than the starting zone.

**rigeld2**

Martel732 wrote:
I never once hated on Tau until they got the ability to table a 5th ed BA list in 2.5 turns while taking minimal losses in exchange. But then, the ion accelerator will do that for you. That, and the ability to battle-brother in Eldar.

Pretty much any 6th edition list could do that, especially on a table with no relevant terrain. It's not unique to Tau.

**Median Trace**

BoomWolf wrote:

As for the super-undercosted riptides, for the love of god stop saying that.
The RIPTIDE is fine, the ION ACCELERATOR is broken, learn to separate elements! its comments like these from people who does not make proper separations that makes GW completely miss the point when reworking a codex.

The problem with the IA is that the opportunity cost to use the Str8, AP2 large blast is negligible. One Gets Hot roll on a model with 2+ and FnP is kind of a joke. If the Blast was only available with its Nova Charge it would not be as bad. You would have to legitimately choose offense, defense, or mobility. As it stands now, the Iontide gets the offense basically for free and can tactically use the defense/mobility as needed. I think the Burstide is a pretty balanced unit because it has to make tactical choices with its Nova Charge and the Gets Hot rolls mitigate some of the weapon's damage output.

**Xenomancers**

BoomWolf wrote:
With all fairness, a 5th edition BA list in the 6th edition (where the IA was only presented) was dominated by even the supbar dark angels.
And tau got much weaker from that day with the rule changes of 7th, most of their shenanigans were based on IC+riptide or allies combos (or both at once)

As for the super-undercosted riptides, for the love of god stop saying that.
The RIPTIDE is fine, the ION ACCELERATOR is broken, learn to separate elements! its comments like these from people who does not make proper separations that makes GW completely miss the point when reworking a codex.

As for bikes having to at least move a bit in order to kill you-so would tau if you had decent terrain. I play on terrain heavy tables and my tau rarely stay put.
Sure the hammerheads sit back, perks of a 72" gun with front 13 tanks-but I got a large number of suits deep striking and dancing around, and even my fire warriors tend to push forward, because I need to get better positions than the starting zone.

It's really not just the IA. It's the general toughness of the unit...2+5+fnp plus easy to acquire toe in cover and 5 wounds on a unit that can sit back all game. Needs to costs more or have less wounds. I expect tau to bring some advanced weapons but in turn they should be able to be killed.

**Savageconvoy**

Xenomancers wrote:

It's really not just the IA. It's the general toughness of the unit...2+5+fnp plus easy to acquire toe in cover and 5 wounds on a unit that can sit back all game. Needs to costs more or have less wounds. I expect tau to bring some advanced weapons but in turn they should be able to be killed.

Well the cover isn't really that big of a concern considering the built in invul save.
The number of wounds is actually factored in with the Nova ability. If you're using a HBC you have to nova every turn or sacrifice a lot of firepower. Once you factor in a lost wound from Nova the Riptide actually ends up being fairly balanced in my opinion. Not that there is any real guideline to go off of.

FNP might be a bit costly on it, but is still a bargain for the added durability. Maybe the alternative would be to make it Nova ability instead to grant FNP like an automated recovery system that's in the vehicle section.

**Xenomancers**

Savageconvoy wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:

It's really not just the IA. It's the general toughness of the unit...2+5+fnp plus easy to acquire toe in cover and 5 wounds on a unit that can sit back all game. Needs to costs more or have less wounds. I expect tau to bring some advanced weapons but in turn they should be able to be killed.

Well the cover isn't really that big of a concern considering the built in invul save.
The number of wounds is actually factored in with the Nova ability. If you're using a HBC you have to nova every turn or sacrifice a lot of firepower. Once you factor in a lost wound from Nova the Riptide actually ends up being fairly balanced in my opinion. Not that there is any real guideline to go off of.

FNP might be a bit costly on it, but is still a bargain for the added durability. Maybe the alternative would be to make it Nova ability instead to grant FNP like an automated recovery system that's in the vehicle section.

I just think it's under-pointed. It could stand a base 40 point increase. You'd still see them in droves with that increase.

**Savageconvoy**

Xenomancers wrote:

I just think it's under-pointed. It could stand a base 40 point increase. You'd still see them in droves with that increase.

Not with HBC you wouldn't. You'd probably still see the IA version a lot and wouldn't really fix the problem people complain about most.
Honestly I think there are two easy fixes to the Riptide. Either swap Ion weapons with the Hammerhead, and give the Hammerhead a reason to exist while still giving itself a rather impressive weapon, or removing the non-nova blast from the IA.
I guarantee that will solve the majority of complaints about the Riptide.

**Martel732**

rigeld2 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I never once hated on Tau until they got the ability to table a 5th ed BA list in 2.5 turns while taking minimal losses in exchange. But then, the ion accelerator will do that for you. That, and the ability to battle-brother in Eldar.

Pretty much any 6th edition list could do that, especially on a table with no relevant terrain. It's not unique to Tau.

No, against other lists I could last considerably longer. Believe it or not.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Savageconvoy wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:

I just think it's under-pointed. It could stand a base 40 point increase. You'd still see them in droves with that increase.

Not with HBC you wouldn't. You'd probably still see the IA version a lot and wouldn't really fix the problem people complain about most.
Honestly I think there are two easy fixes to the Riptide. Either swap Ion weapons with the Hammerhead, and give the Hammerhead a reason to exist while still giving itself a rather impressive weapon, or removing the non-nova blast from the IA.
I guarantee that will solve the majority of complaints about the Riptide.

I would totally be fine with that weapon swap. The hammerhead, while formidable, is not nearly as beefy as the Riptide.

**Xenomancers**

Savageconvoy wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:

I just think it's under-pointed. It could stand a base 40 point increase. You'd still see them in droves with that increase.

Not with HBC you wouldn't. You'd probably still see the IA version a lot and wouldn't really fix the problem people complain about most.
Honestly I think there are two easy fixes to the Riptide. Either swap Ion weapons with the Hammerhead, and give the Hammerhead a reason to exist while still giving itself a rather impressive weapon, or removing the non-nova blast from the IA.
I guarantee that will solve the majority of complaints about the Riptide.

So change ion accelerator to an Ion Cannon is what you are saying? Humm...That could work.

**Martel732**

And give the Hammerhead the grim weapon. I have no problem with that. It's only got three hull points as opposed to 5 W. And no FNP.

**Savageconvoy**

Yeah. Hammerhead gets a 3 shot AP2 weapon with AP2 pie plates. Drawback is that it's more stationary, can't fire interceptor, and can be shaken/stunned. It might actually validate a lot of the vehicle upgrades.

Riptide gets AP3 shots, still good against most MC, and an AP3 pie plate that is decent against all but the heaviest armored infantry.

Nova on that is still up in the air on how it would work. But you would actually balance out both units I think with the swap. That and it makes more sense that an entire tank dedicated to a single gun would have the better gun.

**SGTPozy**

If the guns are switched then nova charge should beStr 8 AP2 large blast and overcharge as Str 8 AP3 large blast. This means that the Riptide can still deal with 2+ armour but will have lost Star 9 and ordnance.

**LordBlades**

SGTPozy wrote:
If the guns are switched then nova charge should beStr 8 AP2 large blast and overcharge as Str 8 AP3 large blast. This means that the Riptide can still deal with 2+ armour but will have lost Star 9 and ordnance.

What if AP2 was entirely gone from the IA?

Make all IA versions AP3 and leave AP2 to the Hammerhead?
It would give the proposed Hamemrhead idea a more clearly defined role, as well as making the Riptide vs. Crisis Team choice for an Elite slot more meaningful (since 3 plasma crisis provide 12 AP2 shots)

**CREEEEEEEEED**

If you hate riptide IA spam, don't play against that person casually, and if it's a tourney, then you should be able to deal with such things, and if not, you won't win anyway.

**Savageconvoy**

The issue is more along the lines of "What would make this more balanced all around"

Yeah, you could just not play people running lots of IA. But then you have problems excluding people for playing models and weapons they like.

**Xenomancers**

CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
If you hate riptide IA spam, don't play against that person casually, and if it's a tourney, then you should be able to deal with such things, and if not, you won't win anyway.

Best way to deal with it is ignore it.

**BoomWolf**

Switching ion cannons/accels IS an option, but the hammerhead is also a more budget unit than the riptide, and I'm not sure it will be healthy to give that gun to a 125 point tank.

The easiest fix for the riptide is to remove the non-nova IA blast, and give a slight cost increase to the FnP upgrade (like 5 or 10 more)

**Savageconvoy**

I don't see it as that bad on the Hammer head. It can't get Interceptor, can't get FNP, doesn't get invul saves (except for one instance with a specific wargear item), can be shaken/stunned, has few hull points, and AV12 sides.
Yeah, it's cheap but it gives the Hammerhead a boost while still being vulnerable, reduces issues with Riptide spam, and has a chance to reduce Broadside spam.

I do agree that your fix would work as well. Especially with the non-nova blast being gone it would make the FNP upgrade less of a concern for people.

**Shaso_Keo**

Savageconvoy wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:

I just think it's under-pointed. It could stand a base 40 point increase. You'd still see them in droves with that increase.

Not with HBC you wouldn't. You'd probably still see the IA version a lot and wouldn't really fix the problem people complain about most.
Honestly I think there are two easy fixes to the Riptide. Either swap Ion weapons with the Hammerhead, and give the Hammerhead a reason to exist while still giving itself a rather impressive weapon, or removing the non-nova blast from the IA.
I guarantee that will solve the majority of complaints about the Riptide.

I am not a proponent for changing the IA, but if I was to see a Nerf to rip-tides I think this is the most acceptable option. Making the standard attack H3 Ap3, an AP 3 large blast and then an S9 Ap2 Large blast with ordinance seems fair. The Nova charge should remain the same because there is a risk involved with achieving this power-level. The rip tide is also meant to be a titan hunter - can hardly be such without the IA.

For Stem injectors I feel the point cost is fair. 35 is enough to make me hesitant to take it, and in 1500 point games I have forfeited SI in favour of placing other units or upgrades elsewhere.

The toughness of the Rip tide is fine the way it is. It is the Tau's only tough unit, while it may be hard to kill it is not nearly as difficult to kill as a number of other units in 40k universe. I always think of thunder wolf cavalry which can absorb the concentrated fire of my entire army (including my rip tide) and still emerge unscathed. Meanwhile my rip tide is prone to killing itself from failed nova-charge/gets hot, or from succumbing to mass small arms fire. Which has happened a number of times. Decreasing the toughness of rip-tides will encourage more IA and a cost reduction of the model, making it more spammable.

**BoomWolf**

As FnP is a 50% virtual wound increase, and assuming a unit is 40%-60% of its cost , less than 20% of the price for FnP is practically a no brainer unless it blocks something more important.
Given that 20% of a base riptide is 36 points, and it easily gets higher with upgrades-its not even a choice to get one, its actively holding yourself back not to.

Had the FnP been in the 40-45 range, it would become an actual choice with no clear answer, but currently, there is a fixed answer of "yes, you should.", again unless you need these hardpoints for another upgrade.

**Peregrine**

BoomWolf wrote:
but the hammerhead is also a more budget unit than the riptide

And that needs to change. Delete the Riptide (let people use it as a counts-as crisis suit if they want to keep using the model), remove its awful fluff from the codex, and make the Hammerhead the scary gunship it is meant to be. Restore the ability to shoot on the move, make dpods a 4+ cover save again, and make the railgun a D-weapon (and make the LoW railguns line weapons), and give the ion cannon the Riptide's stats at minimum. It's absolutely stupid that the current codex turned the Hammerhead into "that cheap but weak unit you only buy if you don't have any better ideas".

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shaso_Keo wrote:
The rip tide is also meant to be a titan hunter - can hardly be such without the IA.

And it can't be a titan hunter with the IA. A single STR 9 ordnance shot for 200+ points is just laughably weak against titans, while a titan's return fire can expect to remove multiple Riptides per round of shooting. The IA's only purpose is removing whole MEQ/TEQ units from the table every turn, you're never going to shoot at vehicles unless you have no other target available.

**A Town Called Malus**

Peregrine wrote:
BoomWolf wrote:
but the hammerhead is also a more budget unit than the riptide

And that needs to change. Delete the Riptide (let people use it as a counts-as crisis suit if they want to keep using the model), remove its awful fluff from the codex, and make the Hammerhead the scary gunship it is meant to be. Restore the ability to shoot on the move, make dpods a 4+ cover save again, and make the railgun a D-weapon (and make the LoW railguns line weapons), and give the ion cannon the Riptide's stats at minimum. It's absolutely stupid that the current codex turned the Hammerhead into "that cheap but weak unit you only buy if you don't have any better ideas".

Don't forget to bring back Vehicle Target Locks so it can shoot its SMS at infantry whilst the railgun targets vehicles, oh and switch the twin linked burst cannon back into two individual burst cannons. As it is at the moment there is absolutely no reason to ever equip the Hammerhead with a burst cannon as the SMS is better in every single way.

And I'd be happy to keep the Railgun as S10 if it gained twin linked. S10 doesn't matter much when you only get 6 shots a game and on average only 4 will hit, let alone armour penetration and vehicle damage chart after that.

**Savageconvoy**

I really don't see how a Riptide really destroys the fluff. Tau were against building machines so large that you needed to install anti-grav generators just to stop them from collapsing under their own weight. The Riptide is just a machine that's about the size of one of their tanks, which rests on 3 tiny landing pads.

That being said, I doubt it'd be usable as a counts as Crisis suit based on the height of it alone. Besides, people have been asking for a bulked up suit for Tau for the longest time. I get some people don't like it, but no need to say it needs to removed all together just because you personally don't like the story explanation for it.

Aside from that, yeah. Tau vehicles could really use their old wargear back and some buffs to the Hammerhead. As it stands Piranha and Skyrays are the only ones that ever see play for me, and only because they're so cheap that it makes them easily expendable.

**Xenomancers**

Savageconvoy wrote:
I really don't see how a Riptide really destroys the fluff. Tau were against building machines so large that you needed to install anti-grav generators just to stop them from collapsing under their own weight. The Riptide is just a machine that's about the size of one of their tanks, which rests on 3 tiny landing pads.

That being said, I doubt it'd be usable as a counts as Crisis suit based on the height of it alone. Besides, people have been asking for a bulked up suit for Tau for the longest time. I get some people don't like it, but no need to say it needs to removed all together just because you personally don't like the story explanation for it.

Aside from that, yeah. Tau vehicles could really use their old wargear back and some buffs to the Hammerhead. As it stands Piranha and Skyrays are the only ones that ever see play for me, and only because they're so cheap that it makes them easily expendable.

The real issue is FNP. It makes it essentially immune to everything but laz cannons and you cant aford to shoot 20 at it in a game...theres too much risk youll do NOTHING.