How I think Tau should be nerfed

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**Savageconvoy**

I agree. I prefer to see MC survivable based on T rather than saves.

I'd rather the FNP upgrade change the Shield ability to 4++ and FNP when purchased. That way you still need to nova each turn to use it, you can't use FNP to prevent the nova damage, and cuts back on the shield.

**Peregrine**

Savageconvoy wrote:
I really don't see how a Riptide really destroys the fluff. Tau were against building machines so large that you needed to install anti-grav generators just to stop them from collapsing under their own weight. The Riptide is just a machine that's about the size of one of their tanks, which rests on 3 tiny landing pads.

It's against the fluff because the previous fluff was that the Tau didn't build giant anime robots. Unlike the religious zealots of the Imperium the Tau have sensible engineers and build sensible weapons, a policy that does not allow large walkers. Crisis suits are Starship Troopers power armor equivalents, and fill a similar "heavy infantry" role. The Riptide, on the other hand, is way too big for that role and competes with tanks (where it loses horribly because large walkers are a stupid design choice). If GW wasn't obsessed with selling giant MCs they would have recognized that the Riptide is just an ion cannon Hammerhead with much weaker armor and buffed the ion cannon's stats.

**Savageconvoy**

Peregrine wrote:

It's against the fluff because the previous fluff was that the Tau didn't build giant anime robots.

So building Dreadnaught sized robots is fine. Building one that is only twice the size of that is going too far? The Tau were against fortress sized titans. Not against a larger crisis suit. It's not stated anywhere, if it was then it's obviously retconned.
The Crisis suits are piloted mechs. Not Power Armor. They sit in the chest and are plugged into to the suit. If anything the Crisis suits need to be made larger to support the fluff.

**CREEEEEEEEED**

Savageconvoy wrote:
Peregrine wrote:

It's against the fluff because the previous fluff was that the Tau didn't build giant anime robots.

So building Dreadnaught sized robots is fine. Building one that is only twice the size of that is going too far? The Tau were against fortress sized titans. Not against a larger crisis suit. It's not stated anywhere, if it was then it's obviously retconned.
The Crisis suits are piloted mechs. Not Power Armor. They sit in the chest and are plugged into to the suit. If anything the Crisis suits need to be made larger to support the fluff.

I agree with most of what savage convoy said, but in terms of the making crisis suits bigger, while I think it would look cool to have enforcer crisis suits everywhere, the pilots legs actually go into a bit of the legs so they have space(edit:they are the size the fluff supports). This nullifies the need to have enforcers everywhere (even though they are super amazing awesome cool ect)

**Boniface**

I personally think the riptide is about the right size ever since playing Titanfall. I think the crisis is too small and the broadside is probably too small too. Just looking at the size of a tau to fit inside it. Bear in mind the way the legs are articulated wouldn't allow the Tau legs to go down

**The Wise Dane**

CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Savageconvoy wrote:
Peregrine wrote:

It's against the fluff because the previous fluff was that the Tau didn't build giant anime robots.

So building Dreadnaught sized robots is fine. Building one that is only twice the size of that is going too far? The Tau were against fortress sized titans. Not against a larger crisis suit. It's not stated anywhere, if it was then it's obviously retconned.
The Crisis suits are piloted mechs. Not Power Armor. They sit in the chest and are plugged into to the suit. If anything the Crisis suits need to be made larger to support the fluff.

I agree with most of what savage convoy said, but in terms of the making crisis suits bigger, while I think it would look cool to have enforcer crisis suits everywhere, the pilots legs actually go into a bit of the legs so they have space(edit:they are the size the fluff supports). This nullifies the need to have enforcers everywhere (even though they are super amazing awesome cool ect)

Wait, as far as I've understood, the Tau is put into the machine in a fetus position, the head peaking above their knees?

**CREEEEEEEEED**

Boniface wrote:
Bear in mind the way the legs are articulated wouldn't allow the Tau legs to go down

The thing about the legs I got from a black library work, I believe it is either Fire Caste, The Greater Good, or Damocles. But it is definitely mentioned.

Also a quote from page 40 of the current tau codex:

"It is a towering battle suit, easily twice the size of the fire warrior who wears it." If we look at the models, this is reflected well, so it probably doesn't need resizing.

Minor edit of spelling

**Brennonjw**

1. I think this ones is already a thing, though I am not sure

Commanders and suits are space marines, str. 8+ to isnta-death, they are good, but far from unstoppable god-suits the complaints seem to make them. The commander with the sensor suit and other buff mod is up there in points. Drone swarms aren't that common, or effective really, even with the improved bs. since tau seem to be army wide 3, 5 on some. Riptide = baneblade = lord of skulls = every other big thing made in recent years, bitch at one bitch at all. Skyfire isn't a huge deal unless you run flyer heavy, if not, it's just a waste of points. Outside of tournament lists, where everyone seems to be WAAC, tau are fairly balanced, unless you are min-maxing, or something similar

Finaly, people, CC isn't that hard to get into!

**CREEEEEEEEED**

Brennonjw wrote:

Finaly, people, CC isn't that hard to get into!

YYYAAAAAYYYY!!!!!!!!!!

**BoomWolf**

Yea, people should really get THAT memo about assault. its not very hard to pull off...

Heck, I managed to pull myself into assault more than a few times WITH my tau. (wrecking a tank with a crisis suit slapping it is very satisfying.)

**Co'tor Shas**

Crisis suits may have low WS, but againt targets like tanks they make up for it with number of attacks, and high base strength.

**BoomWolf**

They are still worse at it than tactical marines, after all these guys got S6 grenades, and three marines cost less than one suit.
Its not something to rely on, its just something that's fun when it works.

Same as having a single crisis suit duke it out for three whole rounds against a necron overlord. that should NOT happen. but it did.
(though my record is the "Roomba wars" where drones bonked necron wraiths to death XD)
(Or maybe the "khorne lord assault derp" scenario where he died in a challenge against my commander? heck I got too many of such occasions, my tau are locally known as the assault tau army)

**Co'tor Shas**

Running tau into melee can be hilarious.

Like taking out heavy tanks via EMP FWs.

**Hunam0001**

I'm in the camp that Riptides should be LOWs, or an AV13 walker with jump and/or skimmer abilities.

Or both.

**Desubot**

Hunam0001 wrote:
I'm in the camp that Riptides should be LOWs, or an AV13 walker with jump and/or skimmer abilities.

Or both.

Do we really want a jinking disco distruption pod riptide?

**The Imperial Answer**

Hunam0001 wrote:
I'm in the camp that Riptides should be LOWs, or an AV13 walker with jump and/or skimmer abilities.

Or both.

But then Mind-shackling, Poisoning and Gate of Eternity-ing them wouldn't be as funny (or possible).

Also if it had AV13 it would be as sturdy as the Gorkanaut, Morkanaut and the Knight-Titan. Given its role, it doesn't really need the heavy armor a walker does as its not supposed to get close enough to need armor that high. Thats one of the things the jet-pack is for. AV13 might imply it could jump into melee (which might go poorly given its initiative is 2, meaning it would be swinging at the same time as nauts. Also if it did engage it melee it likely wouldn't win against either nauts or knights , one of which has a D-Weapon, the other of which drops you to initiative 1 for any un-saved wound).

Also if they made the Riptide a LOW, they'd have to do the same for the nauts and anything else with 5 hull-points.

**Hunam0001**

Yeah, I just meant give it an AV, and some way of sill doing the jet pack thing.

But certainly LOW slot.

**Desubot**

I dont think it is LOW worthy. its should just have an "experimental" force org that requires unlocking with characters to add a tax.

It doesnt need AV. it just needs to be T5 so we can at least ID it with St10 and bolters will wounds on 5s instead of 6s.

Massive points increase for IA
Changes to EWO and FNP

it doesnt have to be complicated.... its over powered but not WS level of pants on head.

**The Imperial Answer**

Hunam0001 wrote:
But certainly LOW slot.

There are better things to take in the LOW slot than the riptide for Tau. Till FW unveils what the Tau super-heavy ground unit will be, we have to go off the notion that any LOW for the Tau that isn't a character will be a flyer.

**xsharkmanx**

Desubot wrote:
It doesnt need AV. it just needs to be T5 so we can at least ID it with St10 and bolters will wounds on 5s instead of 6s.

Changes to EWO and FNP

T5 are you kidding me? pls look at !!every!! other MC that could be find, T6 to T8 is what you can find so no thats not gonna happen and ID such a bit 200pt modell isnt ok. I agree that the Rip does soak to much damage up but reducing the toughness isnt right, maybe invul to max 4+?

The Imperial Answer wrote:
There are better things to take in the LOW slot than the riptide for Tau. Till FW unveils what the Tau super-heavy ground unit will be, we have to go off the notion that any LOW for the Tau that isn't a character will be a flyer.

Can only agree with that, Tau arnt the race which builds big walker and titans, the only really big models will be flyers/transporter or FW will break with the style tau are meant to be.

**Desubot**

Then Daemon princes and i believe a few things off Nids have T5.

St10 doesnt exist enough in the crazy numbers needed.

At best it will light a fire under tau ass when vindicators come to play. which can be out played.

It allows for extra damage from bolter level shots.

Keep it same price or a little lower and raise the upgrades and people wont complain.

**xsharkmanx**

ok my bad, forgott Daemon prince, but every MC from tyras has W6, i looked the codex before i wrote that. (harpy and drude doesnt count for me cause flyers)

Again, i agree with you that the Rip holds to much damage till it falls but T5 isnt the right way. I think the extremly cheap Ion and the kombination from 2+ Armour and 3+ invulsave is the main problem.
When the ion would be 10-20pt more expensive + range to ~48" than this would be fixed + reducing the max invul from Nova to 4+

**gmaleron**

The only thing that needs a change is the cost of the Ion Accelerator on the Riptide, raise the cost and maybe edit their supporting fire to two units can overwatch instead of every unit within six inches. Other then that the Tau do not need to be nerfed in anyway shape and form, vast majority of Tau hate is overblown and overdone.

**The Imperial Answer**

While on the subject of Riptides, what about hate for the Y'vahra and the R'varna ? I hear those get a lot of criticism.

**Desubot**

The sub munitions one got nerfed to ap4 so not much complaints anymore. I haven't seen the new one in action yet

**Co'tor Shas**

The new one looks pretty balanced on paper FWIW.

**Savageconvoy**

Why can't we look at what those models have and compare the durability of the models?

I'm confused. Are we looking to make the Riptide balanced or nerf it so it never gets seen again? Because that is honestly what a lot of people are suggesting.

**LordBlades**

Hunam0001 wrote:
Yeah, I just meant give it an AV, and some way of sill doing the jet pack thing.

But certainly LOW slot.

In a game where:
- any Imperial player can field as many Kniggts as he feels like through the IK detachment
- any GK player can field 3 NDKs per CAD as heavy support
- any Nids player can field 2 Flyrants per CAD as HQ

What makes the Riptide deserve a LOW slot?

**BoomWolf**

It's Tau. And Tau are nor allowed to have good stuff.

**xsharkmanx**

R'varna (submunition) is Ap4 which is useless in an army that has so much ap4

Y'vahra is interessting, it can deal really heavy damage to vehicles and heavy infantry andi dont know why the ioncannon use its profile and the haywireeffect together. The rules are still experimentall so i think it will be changed. The flamer is a little bit to strong i think, torrent 6" is ok but heavy 2 AP2 is to much. Maybe heavy 2 AP3 but i think a flamer with AP2 could just be to extreme. The AP3 from the CSMflyer is really strong so i think better AP isnt ok.

For the rest:
THe anger from many players cause of the time of taudar is still there so we get such comments for so long and it won't change in the near future. Maybe when we will get a new codex but then they will find new thinks that are so op^^
I have to say, that some combinations from tau are really heavy and some things should be fixed/changed but the most points that are discussed here arent such a problem i think.