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Would moving the Riptide into the LoW slot be too big of a nerf?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Would moving the Riptide into the LoW slot be too big of a nerf?

IMO yes, as similarly powerful units (flyrants, wraithknights, nemesis dreadknightsor Imperial Knights) don't have similar restrictions (and in case of Imperial Knights, dreadknights and flyrants it's almost a certainty they won't in the foreseeable future).

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Would moving the Riptide into the LoW slot be too big of a nerf?

I wouldnt have a problem with this change, normally i have only one Rip on the field but most Tauplayer play more cause they go to tournaments.
If this rule is for all the strong MCs/walker/... like LordBlades mentioned it will be absolutly fine

xsharkmanx wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Would moving the Riptide into the LoW slot be too big of a nerf?

I wouldnt have a problem with this change, normally i have only one Rip on the field but most Tauplayer play more cause they go to tournaments.
If this rule is for all the strong MCs/walker/... like LordBlades mentioned it will be absolutly fine

Oh, it definitely would be applied to the Wraithknight, Dreadknight, and Hive Tyrant. WKs and Tides are supposed to be extremely rare, the LoW slot seems highly appropriate. I could see Farsight and Shadowsun being LoW as well, but that would cause things to go a little sideways if Riptides were LoW as well.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

xsharkmanx wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Would moving the Riptide into the LoW slot be too big of a nerf?

I wouldnt have a problem with this change, normally i have only one Rip on the field but most Tauplayer play more cause they go to tournaments.
If this rule is for all the strong MCs/walker/... like LordBlades mentioned it will be absolutly fine

Oh, it definitely would be applied to the Wraithknight, Dreadknight, and Hive Tyrant. WKs and Tides are supposed to be extremely rare, the LoW slot seems highly appropriate. I could see Farsight and Shadowsun being LoW as well, but that would cause things to go a little sideways if Riptides were LoW as well.

Realistically though, the GK codex is 4 or so months old and the nids are 1 year old. GW will most likely not make such changes until they publish the next cidex, which most likely means 2-3 years minimum.

Likewise, they won't change the IK detachment until the next IK codex mor will they alter the ally matrix (which allows every Imperium faction free access to knights) until 8th edition.

Only faction 'at hand' would be Eldar, which has a pretty old Codex.

As such, I feel moving the Rpitide to LoW in the current context is a too big nerf.

LordBlades wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

xsharkmanx wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Would moving the Riptide into the LoW slot be too big of a nerf?

I wouldnt have a problem with this change, normally i have only one Rip on the field but most Tauplayer play more cause they go to tournaments.
If this rule is for all the strong MCs/walker/... like LordBlades mentioned it will be absolutly fine

Oh, it definitely would be applied to the Wraithknight, Dreadknight, and Hive Tyrant. WKs and Tides are supposed to be extremely rare, the LoW slot seems highly appropriate. I could see Farsight and Shadowsun being LoW as well, but that would cause things to go a little sideways if Riptides were LoW as well.

Realistically though, the GK codex is 4 or so months old and the nids are 1 year old. GW will most likely not make such changes until they publish the next cidex, which most likely means 2-3 years minimum.

Likewise, they won't change the IK detachment until the next IK codex mor will they alter the ally matrix (which allows every Imperium faction free access to knights) until 8th edition.

Only faction 'at hand' would be Eldar, which has a pretty old Codex.

As such, I feel moving the Rpitide to LoW in the current context is a too big nerf.

True. Ideally it be widespread, and unfortunately it can't be applied to recent codices. And if it wouldn't affect Dreadknights and Hive Tyrants, it wouldn't be worth seeing it affect the Wraithknight and Riptide. I guess I will just have to stick with my original idea of making Riptides Walkers instead of Monstrous Creatures.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
. I guess I will just have to stick with my original idea of making Riptides Walkers instead of Monstrous Creatures.

sry but that wont happen, too^^
Tau doesnt build walker, its not in their philosophy(im missing a better word for it). They doesnt build titans and heavy walker and that is the cause why they have the Rip as a MC and Krisis which are more mobile which suits the art of war tau do better.

xsharkmanx wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
It doesnt need AV. it just needs to be T5 so we can at least ID it with St10 and bolters will wounds on 5s instead of 6s.

Changes to EWO and FNP

T5 are you kidding me? pls look at !!every!! other MC that could be find, T6 to T8 is what you can find so no thats not gonna happen and ID such a bit 200pt modell isnt ok. I agree that the Rip does soak to much damage up but reducing the toughness isnt right, maybe invul to max 4+?

Demon Princes are T5. And ID happens a lot from things like Force weapons.

xsharkmanx wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
. I guess I will just have to stick with my original idea of making Riptides Walkers instead of Monstrous Creatures.

sry but that wont happen, too^^
Tau doesnt build walker, its not in their philosophy(im missing a better word for it). They doesnt build titans and heavy walker and that is the cause why they have the Rip as a MC and Krisis which are more mobile which suits the art of war tau do better.

how precisely is a giant suit of robotic armor with a pilot NOT a walker?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

xsharkmanx wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
. I guess I will just have to stick with my original idea of making Riptides Walkers instead of Monstrous Creatures.

sry but that wont happen, too^^
Tau doesnt build walker, its not in their philosophy(im missing a better word for it). They doesnt build titans and heavy walker and that is the cause why they have the Rip as a MC and Krisis which are more mobile which suits the art of war tau do better.

how precisely is a giant suit of robotic armor with a pilot NOT a walker?

Its a monstroes creature and no walker, easy^^
i know what you want to say but then dreadknight and toe same have to be walker to

@rigeld2:
pls read my post after this, there i wrote that i forgott DPs and they are the only ones with T5.
That forceweapons cause instant death is ok cause its for everyone and not cause of the miserable toughness that would degrade a MC

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

xsharkmanx wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
. I guess I will just have to stick with my original idea of making Riptides Walkers instead of Monstrous Creatures.

sry but that wont happen, too^^
Tau doesnt build walker, its not in their philosophy(im missing a better word for it). They doesnt build titans and heavy walker and that is the cause why they have the Rip as a MC and Krisis which are more mobile which suits the art of war tau do better.

how precisely is a giant suit of robotic armor with a pilot NOT a walker?

From a fluff stand point:

Some walkers are piloted with physical action from the pilot (like Sentinels or Dreadknights) while others are controlled directly by the pilot's mind (Dreadnoughts, Tau suits, Eldar Wraithstuff). It can be argued that the latter have more in common with MCs than with traditional 'manned' walkers. IIRC there is a mention that Tau suit pilots 'feel' the suit like their own body (a pilot who got his suit's arm blown off for example will be temporary unable to use his own arm after disembarking as his body 'thinks' he lost the arm).

Also, Tau and Eldar walkers are drastically more agile than Imperium walkers and since MCs lack many of the walker mobility limitations makimg some walkers MCs was a decent way to reflect this.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
how precisely is a giant suit of robotic armor with a pilot NOT a walker?

Stop trying to make sense of this. It doesn't. There's examples on both sides that contradict the standard idea behind what is and is not a walker.
Dreadknight: MC instead of a walker
Wraithknitght: MC. Wraithlords are MC and the titans are superheavy walkers not GC.
Broadside: T4 infantry while a Dreadnaught is a walker and similar in size.
Centurions: How are they not walkers? Robotic armor with a pilot.
Helbrute: Clearly more demon than machine yet it's a walker
Forge/Maulerfiends: Walkers despite being mostly demonic entities
I'm sure there are more examples. Easiest way I can look at it is just to try and imagine it as (x) unit +1. Crisis suit is infantry so a larger one is a MC. Wraithguard are infantry WK is MC. Terminator is infantry so the Dreadknight is a MC.

xsharkmanx wrote:
@rigeld2:
pls read my post after this, there i wrote that i forgott DPs and they are the only ones with T5.
That forceweapons cause instant death is ok cause its for everyone and not cause of the miserable toughness that would degrade a MC

You also handwaved away Harpies and Crones for no good reason... 2+ save with a 5+ invul is better than snapshots with a 4+ save.

But it's okay - it doesn't help you prove your point so it's okay to ignore it.

Pls read my post correct, i wrote that the flying tyraMCs arent the same thing for me cause they are flying. That is a strong devense because only few troops can harm them effecktiv from the start. That point makes it for the one toughness less. And if you say 2+/5+ then the dreadknight is the same^^
And what are crones? dont know what you mean.

I dont want to fight and be so passive aggressiv like your last sentence implies but if someone writes something like this, i do feel attacked. And when i dont know the one and only MC with T5 that does not fly, my bad, im not allmighty^^

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
how precisely is a giant suit of robotic armor with a pilot NOT a walker?

Stop trying to make sense of this. It doesn't. There's examples on both sides that contradict the standard idea behind what is and is not a walker.
Dreadknight: MC instead of a walker
Wraithknitght: MC. Wraithlords are MC and the titans are superheavy walkers not GC.
Broadside: T4 infantry while a Dreadnaught is a walker and similar in size.
Centurions: How are they not walkers? Robotic armor with a pilot.
Helbrute: Clearly more demon than machine yet it's a walker
Forge/Maulerfiends: Walkers despite being mostly demonic entities
I'm sure there are more examples. Easiest way I can look at it is just to try and imagine it as (x) unit +1. Crisis suit is infantry so a larger one is a MC. Wraithguard are infantry WK is MC. Terminator is infantry so the Dreadknight is a MC.

There was a debate on this in the background section. In the lore:

-the riptide is described as being "worn" just like any other battle-suit.
-broadside is the same as above.
-dreadknight is basically a giant armor.
-the wraith-knight is grown out of wraith-bone and isn't entirely mechanical.
-centurions are just a giant suit of armor also, kind of like terminator or power-armor.
-the fiend daemon engines are daemons operating a large mechanical body, just like a defiler or decimator.
-the brute raises an interesting point, but that's just a mad-man wired into a dreadnought. Also you can have constructs that are entirely daemon yet still walkers, such as the soul grinder.

xsharkmanx wrote:
Pls read my post correct, i wrote that the flying tyraMCs arent the same thing for me cause they are flying. That is a strong devense because only few troops can harm them effecktiv from the start. That point makes it for the one toughness less. And if you say 2+/5+ then the dreadknight is the same^^

Not the same. The Riptide is more mobile and more of a threat in general. Dreadknight's are strong, but Riptides are better.

Chance of a BS4 Autocannon hurting a Riptide with T5:
2 shots, 1.34 hit, 1.13 wounds, .18 wounds after saves.
Chance of a BS4 Autocannon hurting a Harpy:
2 shots, .32 hit, .27 wounds, no save allowed (.13 if it Jinks).

Very similar survival-wise. Even when you compare Lascannons it's .19 wounds on a Riptide and .13 wounds on a Harpy (.07 if it Jinks).

And what are crones? dont know what you mean.

Hive Crone. Tyranid MC. Similar to a Harpy.

I dont want to fight and be so passive aggressiv like your last sentence implies but if someone writes something like this, i do feel attacked. And when i dont know the one and only MC with T5 that does not fly, my bad, im not allmighty^^

If you're not sure if you know all of them, don't make absolute statements like you did.

rigeld2 wrote:

xsharkmanx wrote:
@rigeld2:
pls read my post after this, there i wrote that i forgott DPs and they are the only ones with T5.
That forceweapons cause instant death is ok cause its for everyone and not cause of the miserable toughness that would degrade a MC

You also handwaved away Harpies and Crones for no good reason... 2+ save with a 5+ invul is better than snapshots with a 4+ save.

But it's okay - it doesn't help you prove your point so it's okay to ignore it.

So FMC or things that have access to wings are T5, while ground MC tend to have higher T? Or at least things that have access to wings.
I don't think the DP are a good point to focus on though. I thought they were generally considered to have a bad statline when they were introduced, with upgrades that really force it into very standard roles. Mostly being pysker with wings.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

Chance of a BS4 Autocannon hurting a Harpy:
2 shots, .32 hit, .27 wounds, no save allowed (.13 if it Jinks).

Did they fix the rule for cover saves with FMC? Have to admit I'm not familiar with 7th's official cover rulings at the moment. But I remember that most FMC were still low to the ground and easily able to hide behind terrain pieces. When they had area terrain still (I know it's gone now except craters) they had the ability to just put the base in them and still get the saves.

@ rigeld2
Im really bemused by your posts^^
We can compare flying and no flying MCs and than we can compare ants and elephants. Both are animals but if you want that an ant is moving a fallen tree than you will have a hard time.
Sry for this but flying MCs are something complete different for me and these two cost 135/155 and not 185 like the Rip.
Rips survive to much, i agree but reducing T6 to T5 isnt the way.

And i can take my question from above back, i told you that i see flying TyrantMCs different and english isnt my main so i didnt know that the schwarmdrude is hyvecrons in english so no error from me.

If you watn to compare rip with W5 and a harpye than pls take a Wraithknight and a Dreadknight, too. And if you are at it, consider to look at all the other MCs (with lifepoints!). if you can show the results for every one that way so that we can compare every then we can talk again about it^^

 Savageconvoy wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

xsharkmanx wrote:
@rigeld2:
pls read my post after this, there i wrote that i forgott DPs and they are the only ones with T5.
That forceweapons cause instant death is ok cause its for everyone and not cause of the miserable toughness that would degrade a MC

You also handwaved away Harpies and Crones for no good reason... 2+ save with a 5+ invul is better than snapshots with a 4+ save.

But it's okay - it doesn't help you prove your point so it's okay to ignore it.

So FMC or things that have access to wings are T5, while ground MC tend to have higher T? Or at least things that have access to wings.
I don't think the DP are a good point to focus on though. I thought they were generally considered to have a bad statline when they were introduced, with upgrades that really force it into very standard roles. Mostly being pysker with wings.

While that might be true, that's not what he originally said at all. And even with T5 the Riptide is tremendously survivable.

rigeld2 wrote:

Chance of a BS4 Autocannon hurting a Harpy:
2 shots, .32 hit, .27 wounds, no save allowed (.13 if it Jinks).

Did they fix the rule for cover saves with FMC? Have to admit I'm not familiar with 7th's official cover rulings at the moment. But I remember that most FMC were still low to the ground and easily able to hide behind terrain pieces. When they had area terrain still (I know it's gone now except craters) they had the ability to just put the base in them and still get the saves.

Sure. So give the Riptide a 4+ cover save from Ruins


Automatically Appended Next Post:

xsharkmanx wrote:
@ rigeld2
Im really bemused by your posts^^
We can compare flying and no flying MCs and than we can compare ants and elephants. Both are animals but if you want that an ant is moving a fallen tree than you will have a hard time.
Sry for this but flying MCs are something complete different for me and these two cost 135/155 and not 185 like the Rip.
Rips survive to much, i agree but reducing T6 to T5 isnt the way.

If you refuse to consider Flying MCs then there's no real discussion to be had. But it's not because they're ants and elephants - it's because you refuse to consider them.
Flying is just another method of survivability. Ignoring it is about the same as ignoring invul saves. Sure, they cost less - but they're far less effective and survivable.

If you watn to compare rip with W5 and a harpye than pls take a Wraithknight and a Dreadknight, too. And if you are at it, consider to look at all the other MCs (with lifepoints!). if you can show the results for every one that way so that we can compare every then we can talk again about it^^

The discussion wasn't about Wraithknight's and Dreadknights. To elaborate, the WK has a 3+ save and no invul. Dreadknights aren't as maneuverable (even with the Teleporter) nor generally effective.

rigeld2 wrote:

xsharkmanx wrote:
@ rigeld2
Im really bemused by your posts^^
We can compare flying and no flying MCs and than we can compare ants and elephants. Both are animals but if you want that an ant is moving a fallen tree than you will have a hard time.
Sry for this but flying MCs are something complete different for me and these two cost 135/155 and not 185 like the Rip.
Rips survive to much, i agree but reducing T6 to T5 isnt the way.

If you refuse to consider Flying MCs then there's no real discussion to be had. But it's not because they're ants and elephants - it's because you refuse to consider them.
Flying is just another method of survivability. Ignoring it is about the same as ignoring invul saves. Sure, they cost less - but they're far less effective and survivable.

If you watn to compare rip with W5 and a harpye than pls take a Wraithknight and a Dreadknight, too. And if you are at it, consider to look at all the other MCs (with lifepoints!). if you can show the results for every one that way so that we can compare every then we can talk again about it^^

The discussion wasn't about Wraithknight's and Dreadknights. To elaborate, the WK has a 3+ save and no invul. Dreadknights aren't as maneuverable (even with the Teleporter) nor generally effective.

I dont refuse to say Flying MCs ARE MCs because they are but for me they are two different types. Both have their pros/cons, tasks to do,... but a flying MC cant have the same toughness cause it have to fly! eagles and so are light animals for example and i know that not everything in 40k is ok but to go a little bit like the rules in nature flying mcs will never have the same toughness like Mcs on the ground. That said and saying that the daemon prince is a poor dog it won't be ok if the toughness of the rip to 5. The cronos and Talos from dark eldar have T7 and they are way more fragile then Rips.
And ok the discussion wasnt about wraithknight and dreadknight but when you go and take some MCs for comparison then why am i not allowed to do it too?
In this case i can give the Sentence from you that you wrote to me earlier to you back:
"But it's okay - it doesn't help you prove your point so it's okay to ignore it. "

rigeld2 wrote:
And even with T5 the Riptide is tremendously survivable.

Making it about 17% more susceptible to plasma and autocannons. IDable from Smash, Orbital Bombardment, WK base attacks, and more. Still loaded with weapons that get hot and 1/3 chance to wound itself. Just as tough as a marine on a bike or Centurion.

So you want to make a MC with drawbacks that most ground based MC don't suffer from? That doesn't sound tremendously survivable at all.

xsharkmanx wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

xsharkmanx wrote:
@ rigeld2
Im really bemused by your posts^^
We can compare flying and no flying MCs and than we can compare ants and elephants. Both are animals but if you want that an ant is moving a fallen tree than you will have a hard time.
Sry for this but flying MCs are something complete different for me and these two cost 135/155 and not 185 like the Rip.
Rips survive to much, i agree but reducing T6 to T5 isnt the way.

If you refuse to consider Flying MCs then there's no real discussion to be had. But it's not because they're ants and elephants - it's because you refuse to consider them.
Flying is just another method of survivability. Ignoring it is about the same as ignoring invul saves. Sure, they cost less - but they're far less effective and survivable.

If you watn to compare rip with W5 and a harpye than pls take a Wraithknight and a Dreadknight, too. And if you are at it, consider to look at all the other MCs (with lifepoints!). if you can show the results for every one that way so that we can compare every then we can talk again about it^^

The discussion wasn't about Wraithknight's and Dreadknights. To elaborate, the WK has a 3+ save and no invul. Dreadknights aren't as maneuverable (even with the Teleporter) nor generally effective.

I dont refuse to say Flying MCs ARE MCs because they are but for me they are two different types. Both have their pros/cons, tasks to do,... but a flying MC cant have the same toughness cause it have to fly! eagles and so are light animals for example and i know that not everything in 40k is ok but to go a little bit like the rules in nature flying mcs will never have the same toughness like Mcs on the ground. That said and saying that the daemon prince is a poor dog it won't be ok if the toughness of the rip to 5. The cronos and Talos from dark eldar have T7 and they are way more fragile then Rips.
And ok the discussion wasnt about wraithknight and dreadknight but when you go and take some MCs for comparison then why am i not allowed to do it too?
In this case i can give the Sentence from you that you wrote to me earlier to you back:
"But it's okay - it doesn't help you prove your point so it's okay to ignore it. "

Flying is literally just more maneuverability and more survivability. Agreed?
Survivability comes down to "How much damage can X model take from Y weapon on average?" Agreed?
Maneuverability comes down to "How far does this model move, and is any of that movement restricted in any way?" Agreed?

Just making sure we're discussing the same thing here. And if you'll note - I addressed *why* the Wraithknight and Dreadknight don't need to have their toughness changed in my opinion. So I didn't ignore them. I'm not handwaving them. I've addressed them.

You continue to handwave/ignore FMCs for no reason.

xsharkmanx wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

xsharkmanx wrote:
@ rigeld2
Im really bemused by your posts^^
We can compare flying and no flying MCs and than we can compare ants and elephants. Both are animals but if you want that an ant is moving a fallen tree than you will have a hard time.
Sry for this but flying MCs are something complete different for me and these two cost 135/155 and not 185 like the Rip.
Rips survive to much, i agree but reducing T6 to T5 isnt the way.

If you refuse to consider Flying MCs then there's no real discussion to be had. But it's not because they're ants and elephants - it's because you refuse to consider them.
Flying is just another method of survivability. Ignoring it is about the same as ignoring invul saves. Sure, they cost less - but they're far less effective and survivable.

If you watn to compare rip with W5 and a harpye than pls take a Wraithknight and a Dreadknight, too. And if you are at it, consider to look at all the other MCs (with lifepoints!). if you can show the results for every one that way so that we can compare every then we can talk again about it^^

The discussion wasn't about Wraithknight's and Dreadknights. To elaborate, the WK has a 3+ save and no invul. Dreadknights aren't as maneuverable (even with the Teleporter) nor generally effective.

I dont refuse to say Flying MCs ARE MCs because they are but for me they are two different types. Both have their pros/cons, tasks to do,... but a flying MC cant have the same toughness cause it have to fly! eagles and so are light animals for example and i know that not everything in 40k is ok but to go a little bit like the rules in nature flying mcs will never have the same toughness like Mcs on the ground. That said and saying that the daemon prince is a poor dog it won't be ok if the toughness of the rip to 5. The cronos and Talos from dark eldar have T7 and they are way more fragile then Rips.
And ok the discussion wasnt about wraithknight and dreadknight but when you go and take some MCs for comparison then why am i not allowed to do it too?
In this case i can give the Sentence from you that you wrote to me earlier to you back:
"But it's okay - it doesn't help you prove your point so it's okay to ignore it. "

Dude, you are literally saying AND acknowledging in the same sentence that you are approaching FMC and MC with a double standard. How are we to take you seriously at that point?

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
IMO the Tau codex is class because unlike a lot of codexes it allows you to take an army that's very reflective of what an actual tau empire army would look like (ie lots of battlesuits) unlike the likes of Eldar where you have nothing but wave serpants. However, as a tau player, I think some things need to change.

1. Make Shadowsun and Farsight Lords of War to prevent them being used in the same game. Or create a rule preventing such a team up ever happening. If he has the Dawnblade, Farsight is always a traitor and would never fight alongside shadowsun or Aun Va.

2. Make it so that only commanders can take buff upgrades and so that they can only have one active at a time. Reduce the amount of upgrade slots they have.

3. Get rid of the drone controller to prevent abusive bs5 markerlight drone swarms. This means the army must rely on lower bs units for its markerlights.

4. Riptides price should remain the same. But, they and also all other battlesuits including broadsides should be prevented from taking intercept and skyfire upgrades. This AA role should be purely given out to the skyrays and tau aircraft. Its simply broken to give main frontline units cheap access to AA and anti flanking weaponry, especially because it directly counters many of the deployment strategies used to counter shooting armies.

The main point though is I think a lot of the problems with tau stem from the buffs and the equipment section rather than the units or weapon profiles themselves.

Honestly after gutting them in the way you suggest why not just remove the army?

Retcon them out of 40k entirely?

How about just take out riptides and make them use the older codex.

This isn't a nerf it's a mugging

@ rigeld2
and again im amused^^
we are clearly talking about the same definitions but pls take in you rconsideration that these flying monsters kost a lot less and are a lot more mobile.
What "Savageconvoy" wrote is absolutly correct, MCs on the ground will get more fire pointed at them than fliying ones and plasmas are the most common option to do the job. a 2+ wound for a gun that needs the same for little bikes/centurions/... no thx, that is no relation.
And i dont ignore FMCs but i see them other then you but ok lets take them to the consideration because you are asking so politly...... So look at the costs and we can talk again if you want to have harpy and rips to have same toughness... And something to add: you dont shoot plasma so often at FMC because its you wont hit them with single shots but its possible that you kill yourself. And another point: FMCs can choose where they want to be with there massive moverange so they can avoid threads much better.

The wraithknight has 3+ ok but a toughness 8 makes nearly all weapons less dangerous to wound (plasma on a 5!) and you should not ignore his 6 lifepoints. The dreadknight is more mobile with a 30" jump. HIs 12" jumps after that are the same cause rips jump 6" and then 2W6 which is 6,5" so Rips jump 0,5" more a turn... The other side of both MCs against the rip is, that both are absolute great in close combat. They have other tasks to do and are more flexible/can do shooting and cc but the rip is only for shooting and is there better but can do nearly nothing in cc.

so its your turn again


@Quickjager
I say that both are MCs but cause of the difference that ones are flying and the other are not these two TYPES are a little bit different so i take them as two different parts of the whole number of MCs. Flying MCs have many big differences to normal MCs and thats why i watch them this way.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
And even with T5 the Riptide is tremendously survivable.

Making it about 17% more susceptible to plasma and autocannons. IDable from Smash, Orbital Bombardment, WK base attacks, and more. Still loaded with weapons that get hot and 1/3 chance to wound itself. Just as tough as a marine on a bike or Centurion.

So you want to make a MC with drawbacks that most ground based MC don't suffer from? That doesn't sound tremendously survivable at all.

Making it worth to take the risk of novacharging for that 3+ instead of just ignoring it 9 out of 10 times, because it isn´t needed at all. On top of that he has a 60" range with the IA which means that most of the stuff you said will propably never reach him.

@rigeld2 wk comes with a 5+ sparkling shield IIRC
Edit: woops forgot to refresh before posting.

Fauk wrote:

Making it worth to take the risk of novacharging for that 3+ instead of just ignoring it 9 out of 10 times, because it isn´t needed at all. On top of that he has a 60" range with the IA which means that most of the stuff you said will propably never reach him.

That's not a good thing though. Forcing the decision to choose the shield above the others or else it's as easy to wound with plasma as any infantry model will result in the same problem as we currently have. You'll only see the IA used because it'd be too risky to use the shorter range HBC and would be impossible to nova for fear of wounds or not picking the shield.

Base Riptide with a HBC is fine. IA is a problem and too many people have the answer of "If you just throw the Riptide in the trash then you don't have to worry about the IA"

xsharkmanx wrote:
@ rigeld2
and again im amused^^
we are clearly talking about the same definitions but pls take in you rconsideration that these flying monsters kost a lot less and are a lot more mobile.

They're not that much mobile. They move between 12 and 24" a turn but can only turn 90 degrees. A Riptide moves between 13 and 18 inches a turn, the majority of that in the Assault phase, and can move in any direction it wishes.

What "Savageconvoy" wrote is absolutly correct, MCs on the ground will get more fire pointed at them than fliying ones and plasmas are the most common option to do the job. a 2+ wound for a gun that needs the same for little bikes/centurions/... no thx, that is no relation.

Why are you bringing bikes and Centurions into it now? Nurgle bikers are T6 - are they relevant? Chapter Masters on bikes are 2+/3++/6+++ (usually) - are they relevant?
It's an MC with drawbacks that most ground-based MCs don't suffer from, but it also has huge advantages that most ground based MCs don't have. Like the assault move. Like the weapon selection.

And i dont ignore FMCs but i see them other then you but ok lets take them to the consideration because you are asking so politly...... So look at the costs and we can talk again if you want to have harpy and rips to have same toughness... And something to add: you dont shoot plasma so often at FMC because its you wont hit them with single shots but its possible that you kill yourself. And another point: FMCs can choose where they want to be with there massive moverange so they can avoid threads much better.

Yeah, FMCs are never on the ground - they're never needed to score, ever. </sarcasm>
FMCs aren't any more maneuverable than a Riptide. They have more available movement distance, but it's severely limited in application (can't ever move backwards). They also can't JSJ.
And plasma is fired at my Flyrants all the time. 1/6 chance to hit, 1/18 chance to lose the model. Hmmmm...

The wraithknight has 3+ ok but a toughness 8 makes nearly all weapons less dangerous to wound (plasma on a 5!) and you should not ignore his 6 lifepoints.

One more wound than a Riptide? Okay, we'll also take into account that the Riptide has more wounds than a Carnifex. Or a Demon Prince. Or many other ground based MCs.

The dreadknight is more mobile with a 30" jump. HIs 12" jumps after that are the same cause rips jump 6" and then 2W6 which is 6,5" so Rips jump 0,5" more a turn...

The Dreadknight has a single 30" shunt. It's not significantly more mobile - the fact that JSJ is a thing is a massive advantage for Riptides.

The other side of both MCs against the rip is, that both are absolute great in close combat. They have other tasks to do and are more flexible/can do shooting and cc but the rip is only for shooting and is there better but can do nearly nothing in cc.

Showing your bias again - the Riptide is actually decent in CC unless you're fighting dedicated CC units (and sometimes even then). Hit on a 4+ and ignore armor, with S6. DKs hit on a - what's that? 4+? And ignore armor? ohwait.
Riptides aren't amazing in CC, but saying they "can do nearly nothing" is a flat out lie.

You clearly overestimate the performance of the existent FMCs in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Fauk wrote:

Making it worth to take the risk of novacharging for that 3+ instead of just ignoring it 9 out of 10 times, because it isn´t needed at all. On top of that he has a 60" range with the IA which means that most of the stuff you said will propably never reach him.

That's not a good thing though. Forcing the decision to choose the shield above the others or else it's as easy to wound with plasma as any infantry model will result in the same problem as we currently have. You'll only see the IA used because it'd be too risky to use the shorter range HBC and would be impossible to nova for fear of wounds or not picking the shield.

Base Riptide with a HBC is fine. IA is a problem and too many people have the answer of "If you just throw the Riptide in the trash then you don't have to worry about the IA"

The decision isn't to choose the shield above all others - it makes the shield a viable choice because there's a situation that warrants it.
Right now, there isn't. And it's not 17% more likely to wound.
Chance for a wound from a BS4 Rapid Fire plasma gun on a T6 Riptide:
2 shots, 1.34 hits, .9 wounds, .3 wounds after invul (ignoring FNP for now)
T5 Riptide:
2 shots, 1.34 hits, 1.12 wounds, .38 wounds after invul (ignoring FNP for now)

On average, it'll increase wounds take per Plasma Gun by .08. You're seriously over-exaggerating the effectiveness of plasma to say that lowering the toughness by one is "throwing the Riptide in the trash".
Oh, and the Autocannon is even smaller - T6 is .14 wounds after armor saves, T5 is .18. ZOMGITSTRASHNAO.

The major difference between T5 and T6 is the ability to ID.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:
@rigeld2 wk comes with a 5+ sparkling shield IIRC
Edit: woops forgot to refresh before posting.

Correct - I'd forgotten. Most people don't keep that shield though, IME.

I've managed to burn CSM players relying on helldrakes to kill my BA by getting into HTH before he can really cripple me. No such luck with Riptides that start on the table, have basically infinite range and point to marine units and have me pick them up. Playing against Riptides sucks. They are far more effective than FMC, especially now that FMC have to land first, then assault. That gives me the chance to react a bit.