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LordBlades wrote:

Bharring wrote:
I suppose I need to get with the times. Not a fan of bikes, and my chapter doesn't have Cents, so Grav isn't an option, but I suppose that's my problem. Add to that the Tide killing any of my Marines it wants each round, and it can be painful. 2+/5++ 5wounds seems too much for so much killy.

Tac termies are easily APed by Tau, and Assault termies usually don't last long in range of Fire warriors. Combine that with catching a jumpjet MC with 60" range with a unit that only moves 6", and you can't catch or corner it by t7.

Poison, in most forms, is not ap2, and so isn't that scary to a riptide.

In all fairness, termies are pretty bad and overcosted, it's not really a Tau issue.

In all fairness, their main problem is that they are forced to have PF for every team member and cant settle for budget power weapons like SW or CSM does.
You never need a power fist on every single model in a squad. NEVER.
Even one is situational.

Agreed. Terminators are bad against every list, and in practically every situation.

So Cents or Bikes to kill Rippy, or just eat squad deletions every round?

Why not a 3+ instead of a 2+? Isn't it basically a tougher Crisis Suit?

xsharkmanx wrote:
If you dont have your 3+ invul i think that you need 8 Melter/laskanons hits to bring a Rip down or 10 Plasmahits. Grav is the same like melta/lasca. There are marinee out there with a lot of special weapons that can bring a rip in 1-2 rounds down. Two Bikes with melta/plasma/grav and a trike with multimelta are an example for that. fast, durable and shoot a lot of shots that really hurt Rips. One of the elitechoice can drobpod and could carry 2 plasma/melta/grav + a combiweapon, that is also an option but cause of early warningshould be used carefully. Centurions with gravcannons are also good, so i would say, that marines have a good range of choices to shoot a rip down and i didnt mentioned the ways for example assaulttermis would deal with him in CC.
Other armys have poisen, there own MCs, CC. There is always a way to fight a rip.
I dont say that it is easy and for orcs it is really hard because of the missmatch and if there is more than one rip it will be harder again but thats why i only play one. I dont want to punch my opponents to the one and only list they can play against me.

Do you not understand that this thing is ALWAYS going to be toe in in ruins or have a 3++????
To kill it with shooting is almost always a waste of firepower.
5 wounds 3++ save and 5+ FNP. Assuming you are str 8 ap 2 or better. The riptide only takes 22% of those wounds. Formula is simple - Riptide takes 22% of wounds 3+ save and 5+ fnp = 22% wounds taken. BS4 = 67% hit. 2+ to wound = 83% wound. .22 x .67 x .83 = .12% chance of a las cannon causing a wound. So it seems to me that youll need something in the order of 40 laz cannon shots to kill it.
Sound crazy? plug 40 laz cannon shots into the formula. youll find on average 40 laz canons wont kill a riptide. 40 x .667 x .833 x .33 x .66 = 4.92. so 40 laz cannons statistically will fail to bring down the rip which has 5 wounds.
40 laz cannons shots is comparable to a 1500 point marine army shooting at it for like 5 straight turns straight....You see now why 3 of them are basically impossible to kill.

Bharring wrote:
So Cents or Bikes to kill Rippy, or just eat squad deletions every round?

Why not a 3+ instead of a 2+? Isn't it basically a tougher Crisis Suit?

Because broadsides.

the 2+ shouldn't be changed.

The problem with the defensive side of the Riptide isn't that it can't be taken down - It certainly can. The problem is that, compared to what role it has and, if you want to consider it, breaks with the fluff. Yes, it is sturdy, and made out to be sturdy in fluff, but being able to tank all that fire? More than most MCs, if not all of them?...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the point to Tau was always to play smart and apply firepower right, because they can't take the beating they'll take if someone gets through to them... The Riptide doesn't really fit this. The fluff makes it up to be a breakthrough unit made to assaults and aggressive warfare, but that's hardly what the range on the main guns suggest... On top of that we have the traditional Tau mobility and firepower (Which I too find excessive, the Hammerhead Ion Cannon swap would be great IMO), which wouldn't matter all that much if it was easy to take down when not used properly... But it's not. And that's the problem. It simply has no downside. Yes, it can damage itself, but you choose to do so, and it has an unreal amount of wounds for such a model... And on top of that, it's not like you can single it out, what with the ability to take more than one.

It's not all that bad. I just think it's too much... It's basically what I feel about Tau in general. It's too much, it's too easy. It's the thing with Dark Eldar players - Many are outright proud to play an army that need a right amount of thinking to work properly. You can talk about how it's badly or well designed, but you can't ignore the fact that, to many people, fighting and working to get your plans and tactics to work is entertainment in its own. The Riptide ignores that, because it gives you everything you'd ever want from a model - Lot's of wounds, a long ranged weapon that is just shy of the highest damage in the game excluding D weapons, fast... And not only that, it can enchance any of those aspects to become even greater than usual with a little luck. It's just... Too easy.

 Desubot wrote:

Bharring wrote:
So Cents or Bikes to kill Rippy, or just eat squad deletions every round?

Why not a 3+ instead of a 2+? Isn't it basically a tougher Crisis Suit?

Because broadsides.

the 2+ shouldn't be changed.

Make the 3++ a 5++ like what the Wraithknight has access to.

Bro it comes with a 5++

perhaps making the nova shield 4++ for shooting 3++ for cc

Bharring wrote:
I suppose I need to get with the times. Not a fan of bikes, and my chapter doesn't have Cents, so Grav isn't an option, but I suppose that's my problem. Add to that the Tide killing any of my Marines it wants each round, and it can be painful. 2+/5++ 5wounds seems too much for so much killy.

Tac termies are easily APed by Tau, and Assault termies usually don't last long in range of Fire warriors. Combine that with catching a jumpjet MC with 60" range with a unit that only moves 6", and you can't catch or corner it by t7.

Poison, in most forms, is not ap2, and so isn't that scary to a riptide.

What is the Chapter you are playing as? And Terminators do struggle against Tau just because of the weight of fire tends to bring them down, and the same can work in regards to Riptides. Poor enough fire into one of them they are bound to fail some 2+ saves.

 Desubot wrote:
Bro it comes with a 5++

perhaps making the nova shield 4++ for shooting 3++ for cc

Terminators get a 5+ invulnerable save and can spend only 15pts. to improve it to a 3+ save with storm shields, so why can a Riptide not get a 5+ invulnerable save?

 Desubot wrote:
Bro it comes with a 5++

perhaps making the nova shield 4++ for shooting 3++ for cc

Get rid of Nova Shield then. I don't like more than 5++ for MCs.

 Desubot wrote:
Bro it comes with a 5++

perhaps making the nova shield 4++ for shooting 3++ for cc

Why would you make it stronger in CC? At that point all you're doing is covering its weakness.

 Quickjager wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Bro it comes with a 5++

perhaps making the nova shield 4++ for shooting 3++ for cc

Why would you make it stronger in CC? At that point all you're doing is covering its weakness.

Because its terrible in CC

If it already needs to use it then its in trouble anyway AND has a risk of straight hurting him self for using it (since people keep forgetting)

Most things in CC will ether force a 2+ save or would of killed it hard anyway.

Not to mention the tau player would have to chose to use the shield in the previous turn or blow it on shooting making actual choices a thing.

2 things I've noticed about this thread (and Tau in general).
Firstly It seems Tau hate almost all boils down to the Riptide. Every Tau 'hate' thread I've seen on here ends up talking at length about the Riptide and everything wrong with it.

Secondly I'm seeing a lot of double standards here.
2+ armour with 5++ on a team of 5 termies is awful and you'll drown them in wounds where as 2+ armour with 5++ on a riptide is suddenly a different thing?
I appreciate the difference between T6 vs T4 but they both have 5 wounds.

Riptides have an ap2 gun that has 3 shots or a blast that averages 2-5 hits which has a chance to get hot and fail or miss.

Riptides can have a 3++ but you have a 1/3 chance to take an instant wound.

I agree feel no pain on it isn't fair and the ion accelerator should be at least 20 points.

EWO should be about 20 points on it too.

Ok some minor costing issues we'll get fixed at some point.

Another point i've noticed in this thread.
It'll encourage people to use hammerheads. I find this a bit unfair. So Tau players should have to take a poor tank that can easily be killed. This sounds a lot like we want to be able to just wipe out Tau. It's not like destroying the other things in the army is hard, but the Riptide is slightly more difficult so it best be nerfed.

Like I said seems like a lot of double standards.

Bharring wrote:
So Cents or Bikes to kill Rippy, or just eat squad deletions every round?

Why not a 3+ instead of a 2+? Isn't it basically a tougher Crisis Suit?

Changing the 2+ to a 3+ is the same effect as reducing the toughness from 6 to 5 when it comes to small arms fire (S4). On the other hand, for S7 with an AP that allows its armour save (ie Autocannons), T5 with a 2+ save results in 0.14 wounds per hit compared to 0.2 per hit for T6 and 3+ save. So changing the save to a 3+ makes the Riptide slithly more vulnerable to autocannons and their equivalents than lowering its toughness to 5 and keeping the 2+ save would.

Plus yeah, Broadsides are a thing. The materials that Tau make their armour from is, when regarding weight to protection ratio, better than that which Space Marine power armour is made out of. So it really wouldn't make sense from a fluff standpoint for the Riptide to have an inferior save to space marine centurions or terminators, considering how big it is, how heavy it is and how much of that mass will be armour.

Xenomancers wrote:
Do you not understand that this thing is ALWAYS going to be toe in in ruins or have a 3++????

That's an IA issue, not a Riptide one. With HBC you need to choose between 3++ and actually killing stuff. Make the IA the same and many cimplaints will be solved.

The Riptide for what it comes with is balanced including point value and what it is armed with. The only thing that I feel should be changed is the cost to upgrade the Heavy Burst Cannon to the Ion Accelerator. Increase the points cost to about 15-20pts. Other then that there is NOTHING wrong with it.

And I agree completely with Boniface, it is a complete double standard that the Tau should not be allowed to have AP2 weapons or a tough MC, especially with Imperial armies all having access to Imperial Knights, Drop Pods, Grav Weapons ect. A huge oversight that people fail to take into account is the ability for Imperial Armies to ally allowing them to fill any weaknesses or needs their army might have.

 gmaleron wrote:
The Riptide for what it comes with is balanced including point value and what it is armed with. The only thing that I feel should be changed is the cost to upgrade the Heavy Burst Cannon to the Ion Accelerator.

And I agree completely with Boniface, it is a complete double standard that the Tau should not be allowed to have AP2 weapons or a tough MC, especially with Imperial armies all having access to Imperial Knights, Drop Pods, Grav Weapons ect. A huge oversight that people fail to take into account is the ability for Imperial Armies to ally allowing them to fill any weaknesses or needs their army might have.

Okay so an IK costs about 45% more and is about half as survivable and can be killed by 2 lucky melta shots...Yeah...Riptide is balanced. Hard to say which will kill more as it depends on what kind of targets are available.

Those 2+5++ termies have far lower firepower at full strength
They lose 20% firepower for every wound failed
They take wounds from small arms (s4) *three* times as often.

So same saves, but takes 3x as many wounds, loses hitting power for every loss, and takes more hits from blasts/templates.

Yeah, those tac termies can do more damage in CC to MCs than the Tide, but do so at i1. I2 vs i1 is actually a large difference, as you can punk the really nasty stuff.

Reasonably better melee in exchange for far lower dakka, much shorter range, taking a lot more wounds, having a lot less maneuverability, and costing 200 pts? Even ignoring Riptide systems, just wow. Tac Termies aren't really competative, bit I don't think that makes your point...

Boniface wrote:
2 things I've noticed about this thread (and Tau in general).
Firstly It seems Tau hate almost all boils down to the Riptide. Every Tau 'hate' thread I've seen on here ends up talking at length about the Riptide and everything wrong with it.

Secondly I'm seeing a lot of double standards here.
2+ armour with 5++ on a team of 5 termies is awful and you'll drown them in wounds where as 2+ armour with 5++ on a riptide is suddenly a different thing?
I appreciate the difference between T6 vs T4 but they both have 5 wounds.

Riptides have an ap2 gun that has 3 shots or a blast that averages 2-5 hits which has a chance to get hot and fail or miss.

Riptides can have a 3++ but you have a 1/3 chance to take an instant wound.

I agree feel no pain on it isn't fair and the ion accelerator should be at least 20 points.

EWO should be about 20 points on it too.

Ok some minor costing issues we'll get fixed at some point.

Another point i've noticed in this thread.
It'll encourage people to use hammerheads. I find this a bit unfair. So Tau players should have to take a poor tank that can easily be killed. This sounds a lot like we want to be able to just wipe out Tau. It's not like destroying the other things in the army is hard, but the Riptide is slightly more difficult so it best be nerfed.

Like I said seems like a lot of double standards.

The kinds of weapons I'd use on terminators cause 1/3 the wounds on a Riptide.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Okay so an IK costs about 45% more and is about half as survivable and can be killed by 2 lucky melta shots...Yeah...Riptide is balanced. Hard to say which will kill more as it depends on what kind of targets are available.

Imperial Knights have a constant 4+ invulnerable save that you can pick which side its facing in your opponents shooting phase (so if you sit in a corner it will always have it), a Strength D Close Combat weapon, 6 Hull Points and cannot be blown up with one penetrating hit. On top of that it has a double shot S8 AP3 Ordnance Cannon which will wipe out a squad of Battle Suits just as easily as a Riptide can take out Space Marines. And don't even get me started on how nasty the Forgeworld Knights are. Take into account you can run a bound army of them as well (meaning you can field 5 Imperial Knights in a 2000pt. list).

And your argument for it being able to be taken out by "two lucky melta shots" meaning that you would have to get 2 penetrating hits, fail two 4+ invulnerable saves and then roll two 4-6's to blow it up on top of being within 6-12 inches of it. If you really want to argue that, then a Riptide can be killed by x2 lucky Grav Gun shots. Also the IK does not have to worry about hurting itself 1/3 of the time with its Nova Charge, or gets hot with its Ion Cannon. Sorry the Riptide IS balanced, its only the Ion Accelerator that should be changed.

Boniface wrote:
2 things I've noticed about this thread (and Tau in general).
Firstly It seems Tau hate almost all boils down to the Riptide. Every Tau 'hate' thread I've seen on here ends up talking at length about the Riptide and everything wrong with it.

Maybe because that's really the only thing "wrong" with the codex? Buffmanders rub me the wrong way, but they're apparently fluffy so it's fine.

Secondly I'm seeing a lot of double standards here.
2+ armour with 5++ on a team of 5 termies is awful and you'll drown them in wounds where as 2+ armour with 5++ on a riptide is suddenly a different thing?
I appreciate the difference between T6 vs T4 but they both have 5 wounds.

No, you apparently don't appreciate the differences between T6 and T4. Let's look at bolters, just as a for instance.

S4 vs T4 wounds 50% of the time. 2+ save saves it 84% of the time. So to kill a single terminator we have to hit with ~3 bolter shots.
S4 vs T6 wounds 16% of the time. 2+ save saves it 84% of the time. So to do a single wound to a riptide takes ~8 bolter hits.

There's a difference. Pretending 5 wounds is 5 wounds is simply ignorant.

Riptides have an ap2 gun that has 3 shots or a blast that averages 2-5 hits which has a chance to get hot and fail or miss.

People have complained about Gets Hot a lot in this thread. You have a 16% chance to get hot and a 16% chance to take a wound after that, with a further 67% chance to take the wound after FNP.
What's that add up to? 1.7% chance to suffer a wound from Gets Hot. Please, stop complaining about it.

Riptides can have a 3++ but you have a 1/3 chance to take an instant wound.

And you rarely need the 3++

Ok some minor costing issues we'll get fixed at some point.

Minor? Really?

Another point i've noticed in this thread.
It'll encourage people to use hammerheads. I find this a bit unfair. So Tau players should have to take a poor tank that can easily be killed. This sounds a lot like we want to be able to just wipe out Tau. It's not like destroying the other things in the army is hard, but the Riptide is slightly more difficult so it best be nerfed.

Um. Hammerheads aren't "easiy killed". They're just simply outclassed firepower wise so why ever take them?

Like I said seems like a lot of double standards.

Only if you ignore facts.

rigeld2 wrote:

Like I said seems like a lot of double standards.

Only if you ignore facts.

Exactly, ignoring the facts goes both ways.

 gmaleron wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Like I said seems like a lot of double standards.

Only if you ignore facts.

Exactly, ignoring the facts goes both ways.

Please, elaborate on what facts I've ignored. I've done so. It's only polite to return the favor.

 gmaleron wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Like I said seems like a lot of double standards.

Only if you ignore facts.

Exactly, ignoring the facts goes both ways.

Dude if I had to put my money on 5 Imperial Knights vs. 5 Riptides... I would pick the riptides, but that is considering what else Tau could bring in at that point cost OR their own FW units. The fact of the matter is the sole issue MOST people have with the Tau is the Riptide, a AP3 double tap battle cannon is a HUGE difference from a AP2 Large Blast w/ possible shenanigans. Think about what you pay for that... 5 points, just let that settle a bit.

Sure thing Ill answer them as best I can:

-Your argument for T6 vs T4, frankly the whole argument using Terminators is kind of silly (and I am guilty of making that comparison) as they are not a god comparison to go off of, a better comparison would be to use a Dreadknight or Imperial Knight as they are much more similar to the Riptide. The same goes with weaponry, of course S4 weapons are going to be better against T4 infantry, if you are relying on S4 weapons to bring down a MC then that is a problem with your list as in general all MC's need to have anti-armor and Special weapons such as Melta and Plasma to bring them down reliably.

-It is not a complaint about the weapon getting hot, it is a fact. Though it is only a 1/6 chance there is still a chance and after playing with and against Riptides I have seen it happen on numerous occasions even with the FNP save. Most of the mentions are not "complaining" as you put it, but stating it as fact.

-Saying you "rarely need the 3++" is not an argument as there are multiple other functions of the Nova Charge that make it worthwhile. And again its not a complaint its a fact that there is 1/3 of a chance that you can hurt yourself with no saves of any kind allowed unless you have feel no pain.

-Yes the costing issues ARE minor as the Riptide as it comes is balanced especially when compared to other MC's. As mentioned by several Tau players we agree that the Ion Accelerator is undercosted, personally I feel it should be a 15-20pt. upgrade. Also things like Early Warning Override could be bumped up a few more points however the Feel No Pain upgrade is perfectly fine. 35pts. for FNP is not cheap. There should be no drastic 30-50pts. bump for ANY of the upgrades the Riptide has access to.

I am not trying to come off as saying "your opinion is wrong and this is right" so please don't take it that way. I just personally view the Tau and Riptide hate in particular to be overblown and overdone and it gets really annoying after awhile.

 Quickjager wrote:
The fact of the matter is the sole issue MOST people have with the Tau is the Riptide, a AP3 double tap battle cannon is a HUGE difference from a AP2 Large Blast w/ possible shenanigans. Think about what you pay for that... 5 points, just let that settle a bit.

When you boil it down it is not really any different, the only thing that the Ion Cannon can really do that the Battle Cannon cant is instant kill 2+ armor save infantry, it does have that on the Battle Cannon. However the Battle Cannon has this:

-x2 Shots, meaning x2 Blast Templates which mean twice the number of hits, wounds and casualties.
-Does not "get hot" (not a complaint its a fact).
-Its an Ordnance weapon making it much more effective against vehicles and thus a wider array of targets. The Riptide can become an Ordnance weapon but at the risk of 1/3 of hurting itself.

Yes there are Shenanigans that can be added on to the Riptide like Skyfire, Interceptor ect. but that is part of the Tau fluff. If you want to talk about Shenanigans try having Grav Cents or Grey Knight Purifiers coming down in Drop Pods, ect. Imperial armies have different but just as many shenanigans that they can pull as the Tau do.

 gmaleron wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
And I agree completely with Boniface, it is a complete double standard that the Tau should not be allowed to have AP2 weapons or a tough MC, especially with Imperial armies all having access to Imperial Knights, Drop Pods, Grav Weapons ect. A huge oversight that people fail to take into account is the ability for Imperial Armies to ally allowing them to fill any weaknesses or needs their army might have.

Okay so an IK costs about 45% more and is about half as survivable and can be killed by 2 lucky melta shots...Yeah...Riptide is balanced. Hard to say which will kill more as it depends on what kind of targets are available.

Imperial Knights have a constant 4+ invulnerable save that you can pick which side its facing in your opponents shooting phase (so if you sit in a corner it will always have it), a Strength D Close Combat weapon, 6 Hull Points and cannot be blown up with one penetrating hit. On top of that it has a double shot S8 AP3 Ordnance Cannon which will wipe out a squad of Battle Suits just as easily as a Riptide can take out Space Marines. And don't even get me started on how nasty the Forgeworld Knights are. Take into account you can run a bound army of them as well (meaning you can field 5 Imperial Knights in a 2000pt. list).

And your argument for it being able to be taken out by "two lucky melta shots" meaning that you would have to get 2 penetrating hits, fail two 4+ invulnerable saves and then roll two 4-6's to blow it up. If you really want to argue that, then a Riptide can be killed by x2 lucky Grav Gun shots. Also the IK does not have to worry about hurting itself 1/3 of the time with its Nova Charge, or gets hot with its Ion Cannon. Sorry the Riptide IS balanced, its only the Ion Accelerator that should be changed.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
The Riptide for what it comes with is balanced including point value and what it is armed with. The only thing that I feel should be changed is the cost to upgrade the Heavy Burst Cannon to the Ion Accelerator.

And I agree completely with Boniface, it is a complete double standard that the Tau should not be allowed to have AP2 weapons or a tough MC, especially with Imperial armies all having access to Imperial Knights, Drop Pods, Grav Weapons ect. A huge oversight that people fail to take into account is the ability for Imperial Armies to ally allowing them to fill any weaknesses or needs their army might have.

Okay so an IK costs about 45% more and is about half as survivable and can be killed by 2 lucky melta shots...Yeah...Riptide is balanced. Hard to say which will kill more as it depends on what kind of targets are available.

Since when is an IK half as survivable as a Riptide?

It's a super-heavy so it ignores most stuff that vehicles are vulnerable to (aka the Damage Table except Explosion, and even explosion is nerfed vs. Knights), at Range you're shooting vs AV 12/13 and a 4+ shield (And the knight either returns fire with 2 Battle Cannon shots or with a S8 AP1 Melta Large Blast (at a BS 1 better than an IA Riptide and with no Gets Hot!). In melee, unlike the Riptide it's even more badass than it is at range.

As for the 2 lucky Melta shots:

Let's assume BS4 and you flank/rear the knight, allowing a shot to go to an unshielded side:

2 shots: 22% chance they both hit and go through shield. You then need to roll a min of 5 for a penetrating hit vs AV 12, 15% chance of getting this far. Now you need to roll 5 + on the Damage table twice, with a total odds of 1.7 %. Subsequently in order to kill the knight you need to roll a total of 4 on 2 d3. So yeah, the odds of blowing up a knight with 2 melta shots are about 0.5-0.6%. So yeah, every 180-200 games a knight will blow up in 2 Melta shots.

Relying on "Mathammer" in a dice game to me is not an excuse, especially in a random dice game. I am not discounting that statistical averages but I have NEVER seen over 40 Lascannon shots needed to bring down one of my Riptides, or when playing against Tau with my Imperial Guard, one of my opponents.

 Quickjager wrote:

Dude if I had to put my money on 5 Imperial Knights vs. 5 Riptides... I would pick the riptides

Really? A total of 5 twinlinked melta shots, maybe some double tapping against 5 IK? I would love to see this fight because I don't think the Riptides really have the Firepower to take them down at range and stand no chance at all in CC.

, but that is considering what else Tau could bring in at that point cost OR their own FW units.

So can we consider ALL the options IoM has to bring in along with those IK when we consider this? Including FW with the Beast Hunter Shell? Can we look at this fairly?

The fact of the matter is the sole issue MOST people have with the Tau is the Riptide, a AP3 double tap battle cannon is a HUGE difference from a AP2 Large Blast w/ possible shenanigans. Think about what you pay for that... 5 points, just let that settle a bit.

Can you find a single person or quote in this entire thread that defends the IA Riptide at it's current cost? If you notice, the people defending the BASE Riptide are saying they don't want a nerf to the HBC Riptide and want to see the IA toned down, swapped, or costed appropriately.
Also I could have sworn there was a second weapon option for IK and a bunch of new FW models/rules for them.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

Dude if I had to put my money on 5 Imperial Knights vs. 5 Riptides... I would pick the riptides

Really? A total of 5 twinlinked melta shots, maybe some double tapping against 5 IK? I would love to see this fight because I don't think the Riptides really have the Firepower to take them down at range and stand no chance at all in CC.

, but that is considering what else Tau could bring in at that point cost OR their own FW units.

So can we consider ALL the options IoM has to bring in along with those IK when we consider this? Including FW with the Beast Hunter Shell? Can we look at this fairly?

The fact of the matter is the sole issue MOST people have with the Tau is the Riptide, a AP3 double tap battle cannon is a HUGE difference from a AP2 Large Blast w/ possible shenanigans. Think about what you pay for that... 5 points, just let that settle a bit.

Can you find a single person or quote in this entire thread that defends the IA Riptide at it's current cost? If you notice, the people defending the BASE Riptide are saying they don't want a nerf to the HBC Riptide and want to see the IA toned down, swapped, or costed appropriately.
Also I could have sworn there was a second weapon option for IK and a bunch of new FW models/rules for them.

Irrelevant because riptides aren't for killing tanks...they are for killing infantry and light vehicles.