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The Imperial Answer wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
^ +1, you could easily take allies and keep it fluff to fill what your army needs.

Come to think of it, Darnath Lysander owes Tycho a favor according to the Sentinels of Terra. So imperial fists allies could be considered for lore purposes.

HA!

Honestly though the taking allies is just a cop outy way to throw monies at gw. and no one wants to throw monies at gw. or people dont have that much monies to throw. or is to young. or whatever.

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
^ +1, you could easily take allies and keep it fluff to fill what your army needs.

Come to think of it, Darnath Lysander owes Tycho a favor according to the Sentinels of Terra. So imperial fists allies could be considered for lore purposes.

Allies that boost bolters. Just the kinds of allies the BA need, lol.

Martel732 wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
^ +1, you could easily take allies and keep it fluff to fill what your army needs.

Come to think of it, Darnath Lysander owes Tycho a favor according to the Sentinels of Terra. So imperial fists allies could be considered for lore purposes.

Allies that boost bolters. Just the kinds of allies the BA need, lol.

They also get access to Centurions in their Heavy Support and Fast Attack. But anyway it can be regular Codex Astartes compliant marines if you wish.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
^ +1, you could easily take allies and keep it fluff to fill what your army needs.

Come to think of it, Darnath Lysander owes Tycho a favor according to the Sentinels of Terra. So imperial fists allies could be considered for lore purposes.

HA!

Honestly though the taking allies is just a cop outy way to throw monies at gw. and no one wants to throw monies at gw. or people dont have that much monies to throw. or is to young. or whatever.

I don't know, GW seems to stress having allies a lot in the campaign supplements. It works for thematic purposes.

Sometimes the task is to great to undertake alone.

I'm gonna throw my thoughts in here. Tau on their own aren't amazing. Sure they've arguably got the best guns in the game but without them their guardsman in carapace armour remember.

The Riptide is just a big tough thing that can be equiped with lots of stuff but its a crap shot and without FNP it'll wound itself at least twice a game if you try for the 3++.

9/10 people who play against Tau just ignore the pathfinders and then complain that our Riptides and Firewarriors are shooting BS5 ignore cover shots.

My solution...
-Make markerlights cost 1 token per point of cover save to remove instead of 2 to strip it all.
-Make FNP 5pts more expensive on riptides
-Make the Ion Accelerator 5pts more expensive.

I don't run FNP on my riptide, i use him for anti-air and intercepting and he's gone down plenty of times to plasma, melta, Axe of blind fury, imperial knights, wraith knights.

If your playing Tau don't stand in the open waving and expect to survive it. you have to close with us fast, kill our pathfinders and force us to move. A Tau player will set up his gun line perfectly but when he starts having to move for objectives or to get away from nasty stuff or taking morale checks that's when their week.

Personally i'd rather play against a Riptide than a Wraithknight with suncannon or an Imperial Knight any day.

Just my thoughts.

The Wraithknight is a loser compared to a Riptide. I can tell you that from playing both with one of the worst lists in the game. Formerly THE worst list in the game.

"Sometimes the task is to great to undertake alone."

I honestly don't see how getting different painted marines to blow apart by Riptides is going to help. Riptides out range the gravstar and can cripple it with two solid hits.

Martel732 wrote:
The Wraithknight is a loser compared to a Riptide. I can tell you that from playing both with one of the worst lists in the game. Formerly THE worst list in the game.

"Sometimes the task is to great to undertake alone."

I honestly don't see how getting different painted marines to blow apart by Riptides is going to help. Riptides out range the gravstar and can cripple it with two solid hits.

Why would you be relying on just the gravstar ? Allies bring's a lot of combinations to the table than just one build.

Really? My logic was that anything can at least wound a riptide as its only T6, even lasguns on 6's. You need S5 to wound a wraith knight. and those 3 twin linked AP2 blasts are horrible. I don't see how Suncannon/Scatter Laser is worse than the Ion Accelerator?

Martel732 wrote:
The Wraithknight is a loser compared to a Riptide.

I'm interested in how this worked out. I've had several games with Riptides against the WK and always come up the loser. HBC wounds on 6's with rending ignoring it's armor. Plasma wounds on 6, melta half the time if it's in range. In combat it's terrible against the WK. WK has higher WS and I, wounds on 2's and is fearless and can easily be run down.
Even with shooting it's got two S10 shots that can ID the Riptide.
Add in that Eldar can buff it with amazing powers like invisibility and you have a unit that is a good counter to the Riptide.

Taffy17 wrote:
Really? My logic was that anything can at least wound a riptide as its only T6, even lasguns on 6's. You need S5 to wound a wraith knight. and those 3 twin linked AP2 blasts are horrible. I don't see how Suncannon/Scatter Laser is worse than the Ion Accelerator?

Then you move onto things like actual AT weapons that SHOULD hurt them and the WK does get hurt, Riptide has a decent chance of shrugging it off. Unless it's like a Lascannon or melta.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The Wraithknight is a loser compared to a Riptide.

I'm interested in how this worked out. I've had several games with Riptides against the WK and always come up the loser. HBC wounds on 6's with rending ignoring it's armor. Plasma wounds on 6, melta half the time if it's in range. In combat it's terrible against the WK. WK has higher WS and I, wounds on 2's and is fearless and can easily be run down.
Even with shooting it's got two S10 shots that can ID the Riptide.
Add in that Eldar can buff it with amazing powers like invisibility and you have a unit that is a good counter to the Riptide.

Wraith-Knight can also get the ghost glaive for close combat can't it ?

 Quickjager wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
Really? My logic was that anything can at least wound a riptide as its only T6, even lasguns on 6's. You need S5 to wound a wraith knight. and those 3 twin linked AP2 blasts are horrible. I don't see how Suncannon/Scatter Laser is worse than the Ion Accelerator?

Then you move onto things like actual AT weapons that SHOULD hurt them and the WK does get hurt, Riptide has a decent chance of shrugging it off. Unless it's like a Lascannon or melta.

You could say the same thing about terminators or artificer armour.

Taffy17 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
Really? My logic was that anything can at least wound a riptide as its only T6, even lasguns on 6's. You need S5 to wound a wraith knight. and those 3 twin linked AP2 blasts are horrible. I don't see how Suncannon/Scatter Laser is worse than the Ion Accelerator?

Then you move onto things like actual AT weapons that SHOULD hurt them and the WK does get hurt, Riptide has a decent chance of shrugging it off. Unless it's like a Lascannon or melta.

You could say the same thing about terminators or artificer armour.

Yea and those guys are T4, don't try cherry picking things, that has been waaaaay to flagrant in this thread.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The Wraithknight is a loser compared to a Riptide.

I'm interested in how this worked out. I've had several games with Riptides against the WK and always come up the loser. HBC wounds on 6's with rending ignoring it's armor. Plasma wounds on 6, melta half the time if it's in range. In combat it's terrible against the WK. WK has higher WS and I, wounds on 2's and is fearless and can easily be run down.
Even with shooting it's got two S10 shots that can ID the Riptide.
Add in that Eldar can buff it with amazing powers like invisibility and you have a unit that is a good counter to the Riptide.

I shoot them poison or ID them with psykers. Or I used to ID them with psykers. Now only Mephy can do it well, but he's in a lot of my lists. 3+ armor is very, very inferior to 2+ armor. That's why the Wraithknight sucks, imo. Wraithknights die to krak rockets; that's weak sauce there.

The Imperial Answer wrote:

Add in that Eldar can buff it with amazing powers like invisibility and you have a unit that is a good counter to the Riptide.

Wraith-Knight can also get the ghost glaive for close combat can't it ?

Taffy17 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
Really? My logic was that anything can at least wound a riptide as its only T6, even lasguns on 6's. You need S5 to wound a wraith knight. and those 3 twin linked AP2 blasts are horrible. I don't see how Suncannon/Scatter Laser is worse than the Ion Accelerator?

Then you move onto things like actual AT weapons that SHOULD hurt them and the WK does get hurt, Riptide has a decent chance of shrugging it off. Unless it's like a Lascannon or melta.

You could say the same thing about terminators or artificer armour.

Except terminators and sang guard suck. So keep trying on that one.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

Add in that Eldar can buff it with amazing powers like invisibility and you have a unit that is a good counter to the Riptide.

Savageconvoy wrote: Wraith-Knight can also get the ghost glaive for close combat can't it ?

It's base S10. The sword it can get only offers mastercrafted and costs extra over the base model. On it's own it's still deadly in CC due to T8 making it very resistant to most attacks, being a high WS, and high I model with fearless so it can't be run down.

I consider T8 a bigger bonus than going from 3+ to 2+. 2+ is a better save and less weapons ignore it, but going to S8 completely shuts off S4 and less weapons from even being able to touch it, while S5 and 6 need 6's. That is a HUGE bonus. Especially in CC. MEQ with a power sword can't touch it, Maces wound on 6's and don't ignore armor, and Axes need to get a 6 while ignoring armor and striking later.

You consider that, but I'm telling you that 3+ is garbage next to 2+. Especially when half the marine players out there still think that MLs are just fine. If there's one thing I can tell you about, it's how bad 3+ saves are in the scheme of the game. It's so much easier to shoot a WK to death than a Riptide. It's so ironic that the terminator itself is such garbage, but when you put their save on units that actually have good stat lines, how overpowered 2+ becomes.

Most conventional weapons would need 6's to wound both, the only difference is the Riptide has access to a 5+ invulnerable save and potentially a 3+, but then it risks hurting itself 1/3 of the time (a statistic that many seem to overlook or fail to mention) in order to do it so its not reliable. The Wraithknight can also get a 5+ invulnerable save if you give it the Suncannon and Shield build and thanks to Scatter Lasers it will always be twin linked.

And whoever said the Wraithknight was worse then the Riptide...either you have not played Eldar or did not play the Wraithknight correctly. The Wraithknight OWNS the Riptide easily most of the time.

I compared it to terminator and artificer to make the point that even they could survive AT weapons that aren't AP2. Its a problem with that game mechanic I think.

 gmaleron wrote:
Most conventional weapons would need 6's to wound both, the only difference is the Riptide has access to a 5+ invulnerable save and potentially a 3+, but then it risks hurting itself 1/3 of the time (a statistic that many seem to overlook or fail to mention) in order to do it so its not reliable. The Wraithknight can also get a 5+ invulnerable save if you give it the Suncannon and Shield build and thanks to Scatter Lasers it will always be twin linked.

And whoever said the Wraithknight was worse then the Riptide...either you have not played Eldar or did not play the Wraithknight correctly. The Wraithknight OWNS the Riptide easily most of the time.

I'm talking as a marine player. I'd rather face three WK than even dual Riptides. The suncannon is pretty crappy compared to the IE and the WK is much easier to kill.

I fail to see how x3 Twin Linked Small Blasts at S6 AP2 is weaker then a single S8 AP2 large blast?

I must admit this one also alludes me.
A wraithknight is stronger than IA riptide in every form.
Is it better PRE POINT? that's another question. but one-for-one there is no contest there.
Not to mention three wraiths to two tides.

Im pretty sure it has to do with a WK sharing a same codex with the WS which draw FAR more flakk.

the Riptide will always be stronger because it CAN get ignore cover or interceptor.

Interceptor is useless if you have no reserves or only flyers and not properly kitted out. Interceptor also will not get any benefits. If anything you should hope they fire a BS3 interceptor that will NOT ignore cover rather than being shot by it the next turn.

Ignore Cover comes from fragile units. WK get twin-linked from a cheap gun upgrade or from their amazing psykers that can be put on jetbikes and joined to jetbike troops or easily hidden.

Im saying they have the ability which will effect alot of players diffrent way.

The ablility to punk a unit during your own turn is disheartning
ignore cover can still happen if you dont have ignore cover of your own.

there is a butt load of variables

at best the WK can actually be out played just with cover alone.

Jet bikes and pyskers have nothing to do with the WK

At st6 it wont affect many vehicles. it will hurt bike units a little less. but the big key is that you at the least have the option of walking around behind and through terrain.

Also those fragile units come in 36" flavor. or the jinky tetra kind. or the awsome skyray (oh wait does it always have skyfire? or can yo chose) remoras (which i love ) the big mark'o markdrone unit that if you dont deal with immidietly will probably cause major issues.

 Desubot wrote:
Im saying they have the ability which will effect alot of players diffrent way.

The ablility to punk a unit during your own turn is disheartning
ignore cover can still happen if you dont have ignore cover of your own.

there is a butt load of variables

at best the WK can actually be out played just with cover alone.

Jet bikes and pyskers have nothing to do with the WK

At st6 it wont affect many vehicles. it will hurt bike units a little less. but the big key is that you at the least have the option of walking around behind and through terrain.

Every army has access to ignore cover weaponry or abilities in their codex its not just the Tau, for example, Serpent Shields....And even then it take several T3 or T4 units with a 4+ save at best in order to do it which are easy kills for opponents armies.

 gmaleron wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Im saying they have the ability which will effect alot of players diffrent way.

The ablility to punk a unit during your own turn is disheartning
ignore cover can still happen if you dont have ignore cover of your own.

there is a butt load of variables

at best the WK can actually be out played just with cover alone.

Jet bikes and pyskers have nothing to do with the WK

At st6 it wont affect many vehicles. it will hurt bike units a little less. but the big key is that you at the least have the option of walking around behind and through terrain.

Every army has access to ignore cover weaponry or abilities in their codex its not just the Tau, and even then it take several T3 or T4 units with a 4+ save at best in order to do it. For example, Serpent Shields....

does everyone have it in enough quantities and reliablilty? and what tau player wont have actual redundancies?

Eldar is its own issue we all know this..........

 Desubot wrote:

The ablility to punk a unit during your own turn is disheartning

Which is a problem since 6th. People only bringing single flyers got wasted by ADL. This is something that really gets overblown on a unit like a riptide since you may not see any reserve units at all and have to give up a turn of shooting with the added effect of markerlights.

ignore cover can still happen if you dont have ignore cover of your own.

Only if someone deepstrikes or arrives right in LOS of the Riptide with no intervening terrain. It's at the end of the movement phase so there is plenty of chances to avoid being in the open. Even then it's a single BS3 shot with gets hot and doesn't ignore cover. If you get it from support units, I'd argue that WK get Psyker buffs that can include invisibility and twin-linking.

at best the WK can actually be out played just with cover alone.

Hard to do with a unit that moves 12 and has twin-linked blasts.

Jet bikes and pyskers have nothing to do with the WK

Then you can't argue about a Riptide with marker support.

At st6 it wont affect many vehicles.

S10 cannons are it's base weapon and it's base attack in CC.

Wait WK are fast? im pretty sure its just a 6"er (edit il be it is a jump mc)
Psyker buff for invisibility means its not on the psyker unit. generally speaking unless its a very desperate situation its not happening (aka against grav centurions)
so does it have its S10 weapons or does it have its St6 weapon? Schrodinger WK?

What kind of units often come out of Deep strike and reserves? They will more thank likely be things that go after RTs.
its a 1/6 chance to not shoot true. but it can be suplimented with ammo dumps or that one mysterious terrain (not always there but its a thing) even with Bs3 the scatter alone has a 1/3 chance to straight hit which is very good. its also a large blast. usually against tight spiral units (soooo juicy)
Also there is always the fusion for drop pod type things that drop near by.

Its exceptionally dishearthing to lose FB during your own turn. and its entirely possible

 gmaleron wrote:
I fail to see how x3 Twin Linked Small Blasts at S6 AP2 is weaker then a single S8 AP2 large blast?

Because the small blast marker is awful, and most weapons that use it are also awful. 3 TL small blasts = ROF 3 much of the time. It's a star cannon with an extra shot. Yippee.

The S10 single shot cannons I'll live with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BoomWolf wrote:
I must admit this one also alludes me.
A wraithknight is stronger than IA riptide in every form.
Is it better PRE POINT? that's another question. but one-for-one there is no contest there.
Not to mention three wraiths to two tides.

No, it's not. Its armor blocks half as many wounds and also penetrated by additional weapons. It also lacks 3++ save. Why do you think the WK is scary? It's very meh in my experience. Naked Sternguard make the WK very sad, whereas the Riptide laughs at naked Sternguard.

I don't care who wins in a head to head. I'm talking vs all comers. The WK is not even close to the IA Riptide.

Again the 3++ save is not a guarantee, its not an auto invulnerable save so you should stop treating it like it is. And sorry you are incorrect, x3 Twin Linked small blasts which means you can re-reroll the scatter, are much more accurate and will do more damage then a single large template that will scatter and potentially get hot.

 gmaleron wrote:
Again the 3++ save is not a guarantee, its not an auto invulnerable save so you should stop treating it like it is. And sorry you are incorrect, x3 Twin Linked small blasts which means you can re-reroll the scatter, are much more accurate and will do more damage then a single large template that will scatter and potentially get hot.

I've had them both used against me... a lot. The small templates are a dumpster fire. They don't do the damage of the Tau template, especially when its ignoring cover. And I can get the WK off the board three times as quickly.

The 3++ is close enough of a guarantee for me.