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honestly i think riptides are very lowly ranked in my concerns of the current meta. Especially, after buffmander + riptide combination or BB giving prescience/guide got nerfed.
lol. at most change marker light to lower cover by 2, or not let EWO be on MC.
Really surprised that there are still people having such trouble with them. I find that IoM armies deal with them quite well.
You can't deal with a competitive meta, if you can't handle Riptides. If you can't, then maybe need t find a casual-er opponent. There are bigger problems.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/13 09:15:32
gmaleron wrote: I have to laugh at this, so the Imperial Knight is crappy when compared to a Riptide but then when two of them are used in a game they are suddenly to strong?! Like really? One thing about Fusion to mention as well, it is only an 18inch range meaning it would have to get within 9 inches for the melta rule. That means your "underpowered" or "overpowered Knight" (in regards to the sudden change of opinion listed above apparently) has a VERY good chance of assaulting said Riptide in combat and beating it down.
Did I say IKs were gak? No, I said they were balanced (not "underpowered", jeez I never said that once) for the cost.
Multiples aren't OP, just very rock-paper-scissory. Most TAC lists can't deal with multiple AV 13 hull points easily. 2 shouldn't that much of a deal against a list with actual AT, which that Tau list lacked.
If you take a list entirely of IKs you will lose against armies with high amounts of flyers or AT, but almost instantly win against an army with low/no AT or even a moderate amount of AT. If you add allies in, those weaknesses are covered (like in the aforementioned list) making a stronger list. Those lists can be OP as you have few weaknesses, but even then they are typically just strong.
Did I say IKs will fold against Riptides? No. I just said IA riptides don't cost enough. IKs will still lay the hurt on them, but they should as they cost more. However, the IA riptide (note I'm only talking about IA riptides, non-IA are fine like IKs) is a bit under priced for what it does, or rather, can do.
If the Tau list had actual AT then it would have been a lot closer.
Was not specifically targeting you man, just relating to earlier in this thread where Riptides were being compared to Imperial Knights and in some cases, even stated that the Riptide was stronger. If I came off as targeting you specifically that's my bad, but not the case!
That's ok. I apoligise, too. I probably overreacted a bit and was a bit harsh myself, even if you had been targeting my post specifically.
Funnily enough, the army I put together only beat Tau that day. I lost to Eldar wave serpents/fire prisms(shocker ) and space wolves. The quad-riptide guy had fusion on all the riptides, and I ended up losing both knights in the two games against the Tau. I just forced them to play the way I wanted them to play, not let them shoot me off the board. That and targeting all the pathfinders t1 with the knights when I got to shoot helped secure the game for me.
That said, I still think the IA needs to go to the hammerhead and the ion cannon should be what the riptide uses.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/13 09:41:44
Martel732 wrote: It's never just one. So the tri- or tetra- Riptide list decimates an enemy list and then the Tau loses *maybe* one to a gets hot roll. Sure seems worth it to me.
You're just so wrong it's not funny. I was at a semi-local game store this weekend and my first opponent had 4 Riptides in his list. Ignoring the fact his list was illegal (too many ECPA's), I tabled him easily in 6 turns. His list was:
Spoiler:
Farsight
O'Vesa (IC Riptide)
Commander with VT, TL, 2xMP
Riptide with HBC, VT, FNP, ECPA
Riptide with IA, EWO, FNP Riptide with IA, EWO, FNP
3-man XV8's with 2xMP, TL 6-man FW team
4-man Pathfinder team.
Allied Tau:
Buffcommander
6-man FW team.
4-man Pathfinder team.
And my list was:
Spoiler:
Kahn on a bike
Chapter Master with artificer, shield eternal, thunder hammer, bike
Command squad with bikes, 4x grav guns, apothecary
5-man Bike Troop Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, combi-melta, meltabomb
5-man Bike Troop Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, combi-melta, meltabomb
4-man Bike FA Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, meltabomb
Knight Errant
Knight Paladin
The mission was Hammer and anvil, Relic. That gave those Riptides plenty of range to just remove my models, so I instead outplayed him. He had first turn and deployed in the middle of his deployment zone putting the missile commander, buff-commander, farsight, and o'vesa into the crisis suit team. I put down both knights on the line roughly in the middle of my zone and outflanked all my bikes. I had 3 squads come in turn 2 (had lost a knight already) and only the small melta squad got to choose their side. Despite the infamous S8 AP2 Large Blast intercepting, at the end of turn 5 he had 1 riptide with a couple wounds on him, and I had about half of my bikes. The riptide is beatable. If you can't beat it, look at yourself and ask what you are doing wrong.
Martel732 wrote: It's never just one. So the tri- or tetra- Riptide list decimates an enemy list and then the Tau loses *maybe* one to a gets hot roll. Sure seems worth it to me.
You're just so wrong it's not funny. I was at a semi-local game store this weekend and my first opponent had 4 Riptides in his list. Ignoring the fact his list was illegal (too many ECPA's), I tabled him easily in 6 turns. His list was:
Spoiler:
Farsight
O'Vesa (IC Riptide)
Commander with VT, TL, 2xMP
Riptide with HBC, VT, FNP, ECPA
Riptide with IA, EWO, FNP Riptide with IA, EWO, FNP
3-man XV8's with 2xMP, TL 6-man FW team
4-man Pathfinder team.
Allied Tau:
Buffcommander
6-man FW team.
4-man Pathfinder team.
And my list was:
Spoiler:
Kahn on a bike
Chapter Master with artificer, shield eternal, thunder hammer, bike
Command squad with bikes, 4x grav guns, apothecary
5-man Bike Troop Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, combi-melta, meltabomb
5-man Bike Troop Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, combi-melta, meltabomb
4-man Bike FA Squad with 2x melta, attack bike with MM, meltabomb
Knight Errant
Knight Paladin
The mission was Hammer and anvil, Relic. That gave those Riptides plenty of range to just remove my models, so I instead outplayed him. He had first turn and deployed in the middle of his deployment zone putting the missile commander, buff-commander, farsight, and o'vesa into the crisis suit team. I put down both knights on the line roughly in the middle of my zone and outflanked all my bikes. I had 3 squads come in turn 2 (had lost a knight already) and only the small melta squad got to choose their side. Despite the infamous S8 AP2 Large Blast intercepting, at the end of turn 5 he had 1 riptide with a couple wounds on him, and I had about half of my bikes. The riptide is beatable. If you can't beat it, look at yourself and ask what you are doing wrong.
Use less knights, then adopt that attitude
Like it or not, knights ARE in the game and they're a free (in the sense they require no other unit 'tax' to be taken and are Battle Brothers) choice fir all IoM armies.
Maybe most IoM players should take more knights to fifht Riptudes if it works so well?
Not giving GW that kind of $$ for their still mostly gak game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/13 13:34:46
whine and whine. Normally I will advocate killing everything else first especially markerlights , and staying in cover.
But if you want to kill them:
grav centurions (podded or tigurius or gated), Imperial Knights, grav bike, psychic shenanigans (invisbility, psychic scream, shrouding etc...), sternguards, Orbital/TFCs aiming markerdrones/tetras, thunderwolves, DreadKnights, generic force weapons. Not sure if counted, but the typical Bike Chapter Master can tie one up as well.
Most good IoM lists will have some combination of the above.
Quadtide list is so 2013. They're still strong, but nothing like what they're used to be. They REALLY need their markerlights.
It also sounds like you're bringing a subpar list against a competitive one, then it wouldn't matter if there were riptides or not.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/01/13 14:18:11
I think it's been clearly established that the issue has gone from wanting to balance the Riptide to making it worthless on a perfectly set table in it's favor and going against a lower tier army with their worst possible table.
I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."
"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby
In all honesty, as a chaos player who plays unmarked / Tzeentch primarily I must admit that Tau overall are not too bad, they are very good, but most of their codex is not overpowered.
However that being said, Riptides give me a lot of problems, they are usually the only thing left on the table at the end, and can be very difficult to kill.
I have a friend who will run 2 riptides regardless of points level, so 1k will have 2, 2k will have 2, so it makes it difficult really at any point level game to win.
I compare the riptide to a chaos equivalent which would be the Defiler, it is the same points, same slot, and serves the same function. Now have the 2 of them have a 1v1 fight and you will see the Riptide has no problem destroying it, in fact Riptides have no problem destroying anything, and are very tough to kill, and therein lies the problem.
Even compared to 3x Oblitorators (more expensive), or a land raider (also more expensive) the Riptide can do more damage and has mobility and survivability.
So anything that you have problems with needs to be 'balanced' I.e. needed into the ground?
I have problems with grav guns... Let's make them 50 points each and they wound everything on a 6 and only on a 6. That'll show them for using a good unit! <angrily shakes fist in the air>
SGTPozy wrote: So anything that you have problems with needs to be 'balanced' I.e. needed into the ground?
I have problems with grav guns... Let's make them 50 points each and they wound everything on a 6 and only on a 6. That'll show them for using a good unit! <angrily shakes fist in the air>
No, I am comparing point value equivalent or greater in my codex that fill the same role that are not nearly as good, and saying that they are a challenge because I really have nothing comparable.
Centurions are comparable to Oblitorators. Grav guns are great, I don't get access to any of them, but at least the unit they are mounted on can be killed with reasonable expectations unlike the Riptide.
text removed. No need for comments like this.
Reds8n
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/13 16:54:20
But if you want to kill them:
grav centurions (podded or tigurius or gated), Imperial Knights, grav bike, psychic shenanigans (invisbility, psychic scream, shrouding etc...), sternguards, Orbital/TFCs aiming markerdrones/tetras, thunderwolves, DreadKnights, generic force weapons. Not sure if counted, but the typical Bike Chapter Master can tie one up as well.
Most good IoM lists will have some combination of the above.
The above are things I list in SM-ish armies that destroys Riptides, especially grav in one round of shooting if it doesn't nova-charges its shield. It's more of a CSM codex being lackluster than anything tbh. Personally, when I play CSM, I just throw my spawns at a riptide, all my CSM lists have 2 units of them.
Alternatives could be Be'lakor, an invisible Maulerfiend (with lasher tendrils) to deal witih a Riptide, psychic shriek.. Or if you don't mind Daemons, ally in Balesword and Biomancy-souped up Nurgle DP.
Or if you realise that a riptide isn't fearless, attempt a multicharge, destroy the weaker unit and sweep the Riptide. lol Personally that's the easiest way to kill a Riptide no matter what army I play.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/13 16:15:10
Yes I have, and I run an Oblitorator star myself with 2 sorcs in a land raider that is very nasty.
The Riptide is overall a very good unit, it is so good I would go as far as saying it is too cost effective, and becomes an auto include.
I've had to use my 500pt 10 man Tzeentch termintor squad deepstriking with 5x combi-meltas to kill a lone Riptide then to be blasted to pieces.
The point of this game is to build interesting lists that build strength from synergising with other units to boost their effectiveness. Then using said list to the best of your abilities using tactics to execute said combinations as effectively as possible given the scenario of the game.
The Riptide bypasses all of that and is just flat out amazing in every way and doesn't need help from anything to be effective. You might argue that hey, markerlights are important too for making them effective, but I would have to disagree. They don't need marker lights to be good, they just become stupidly good with them.
Now please stop acting like a child and attacking me for having a very valid opinion on a problem area for the Tau codex. I said the rest of the codex is good, but you completely ignored that fact.
When does this not happen, again? I guess I'm not lasting long enough to wait for the "1" or "2".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Savageconvoy wrote: I think it's been clearly established that the issue has gone from wanting to balance the Riptide to making it worthless on a perfectly set table in it's favor and going against a lower tier army with their worst possible table.
I never once said to make it worthless. You said that. I only advocate a minor point increase for the base Riptide because of its unprecedented durability. The HBC can be free and have not gets hot as far as I care.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/13 16:16:39
Your "Obliterator-star in a landraider" is very very pricey and underwhelming unit compared to what the SMCenturion Star can do.
500 points in 10 terminators is a poor choice of a unit. I can think of an incredible number of far FAR superior units with 500 points from across the codexes.
The problem in this case, the CSM dex needs to be buffed.
Can we just lowered the W by 1 and not allow EWO to be on it?
I agree that it has way too many wounds, and it is too incredible an interceptor platform.
Actually a prescienced centurion unit, can reliably do 5W to a 3++ riptide, so if the riptide had taken any wounds, it can die to the centstar even with the 3++ up.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/01/13 16:23:38
Honestly my lists beat competitive Eldar lists, I do beat Tau lists that aren't heavy with Riptides, but once i fight 2 or more of them it seems like I am destined to lose the battle right off the bat.
Invisible Oblits with 4+ invlun, Eternal warrior, and 4+ feel no pain is not something to be ignored. My sorc also runs scrolls of Magnus and I can get 8+ powers by the end of the game, often with life leech also.
If I can get the right combination of powers I can eat centurion stars.
The point of this game is to build interesting lists that build strength from synergising with other units to boost their effectiveness. Then using said list to the best of your abilities using tactics to execute said combinations as effectively as possible given the scenario of the game.
The Riptide bypasses all of that and is just flat out amazing in every way and doesn't need help from anything to be effective. You might argue
This assertion is based on what exactly?
I'd argue the contrary since most good units need just as little support (or less) than riptides.
What kind of support do Flyrants, Wraithknights, Nemesis Dreadknights, Imperial Knights, etc. need? Not even going to menyion Wave Serpents.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/13 16:27:48
Can we just lowered the W by 1 and not allow EWO to be on it?
I agree that it has way too many wounds, and it is too incredible an interceptor platform.
The point of this game is to build interesting lists that build strength from synergising with other units to boost their effectiveness. Then using said list to the best of your abilities using tactics to execute said combinations as effectively as possible given the scenario of the game.
The Riptide bypasses all of that and is just flat out amazing in every way and doesn't need help from anything to be effective. You might argue
This assertion is based on what exactly?
I'd argue the contrary since most good units need just as little support (or less) than riptides.
What kind of support do Flyrants, Wraithknights, Nemesis Dreadknights, Imperial Knights, etc. need? Not even going to menyion Wave Serpents.
The guy is just a Tau hater with no real logic to back himself up with.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/13 16:29:24
The Riptide is overall a very good unit, it is so good I would go as far as saying it is too cost effective, and becomes an auto include.
ame.
Spawn are also an auto-include, as is the Mark of Burgle; so shuld we increase the points of these?
I would agree with your statement, Chaos spawn with the mark of nurgle are far too good for their point value. In fact I stopped using them because I felt they are far too cheese to use, I am also not a win at all costs player but prefer good solid games that the winner can't be determined until the end of the game. Maybe I am crazy for wanting to have a challenging game instead of rinse repeat win cycle.
For the other comment, Imperial knights I find are easier to kill than Riptides. Wraithknights are also very good, but lack the DPS that a Riptide has and has comparable if not better survivability compared to a wraithknight.
It is the combination of damage output and amazing survivability at a discount that makes them so good.
I will often run 2x Laspreds with a Landraider and Defiler / or Vindicator tank and it takes 2-3 rounds of focused firepower to kill a single Riptide. So that translates to 2-3 rounds of more than 2x point cost heavy firepower to kill one.
The point of this game is to build interesting lists that build strength from synergising with other units to boost their effectiveness. Then using said list to the best of your abilities using tactics to execute said combinations as effectively as possible given the scenario of the game.
The Riptide bypasses all of that and is just flat out amazing in every way and doesn't need help from anything to be effective. You might argue
This assertion is based on what exactly?
I'd argue the contrary since most good units need just as little support (or less) than riptides.
What kind of support do Flyrants, Wraithknights, Nemesis Dreadknights, Imperial Knights, etc. need? Not even going to menyion Wave Serpents.
Flyrants need a Malanthrope/Venomthrope or VSG to make sure they aren't alpha striked off the table before they can fly.
Wraithknights, Dreadknights need help making sure they don't get tarpitted.
IKs need AA help (since they have literally no effective AA)
Wave Serpents are the closest to not needing support, but they require taking other units anyway.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
Can we just lowered the W by 1 and not allow EWO to be on it?
I agree that it has way too many wounds, and it is too incredible an interceptor platform.
The point of this game is to build interesting lists that build strength from synergising with other units to boost their effectiveness. Then using said list to the best of your abilities using tactics to execute said combinations as effectively as possible given the scenario of the game.
The Riptide bypasses all of that and is just flat out amazing in every way and doesn't need help from anything to be effective. You might argue
This assertion is based on what exactly?
I'd argue the contrary since most good units need just as little support (or less) than riptides.
What kind of support do Flyrants, Wraithknights, Nemesis Dreadknights, Imperial Knights, etc. need? Not even going to menyion Wave Serpents.
The guy is just a Tau hater with no real logic to back himself up with.
Clearly your a Tau fanboi who is extremely defensive about a unit that you clearly abuse to win games to make you feel better about your life.
I gave many examples including experiences when facing off against Tau yet you label me as a Tau hater.
Can we just lowered the W by 1 and not allow EWO to be on it?
I agree that it has way too many wounds, and it is too incredible an interceptor platform.
So you're fine with it keeping the FNP option?
Mmmh, it's a purchased upgrade (3.5 meltas), not sure if you realised that. Indifferent about it because it just makes the Riptide even more expensive. I would ignore the Riptide who has it.
My meta don't really see much Riptide with the FnP upgrade, we are of the philosophy to have more units/guns rather than just overloading a single model. So instead of 2 Riptides with FnP, I would face 3 Riptides quite commonly-_- I rather deal with 2 riptides with FnP, than 3 personally.
I usually abuse the fact that Riptides are not fearless and are easily tarpited with WS2 and 3A.
jreilly89 wrote: I think supporting fire is much more damaging. It really hurts assault, one of the areas that are most used to hurt Tau.
This is an understatement. Assault didn't just 'hurt' Tau. It was what made Tau nearly impossible to win with. Supporting Fire has given Tau a fair fighting chance in assault. Nothing more.
I see a lot of talk toward reducing the effectiveness of markerlights. I think some of you are forgetting that shooting is the only form of offense that Tau have and their BS is not high enough to make it reliable. The fact that they have to rely on markerlights adds the variable of 'maybe they'll get help, maybe not'.
The problem isn't the Tau. The problem is that people still harbor the dated notion that the Tau are supposed to be a pushover army. And if they're not easily crushed, then their codex was done wrong.
An army with high powered, long range weaponry which uses advanced tracking and targeting systems under high efficiency optics should actually be very difficult to defeat.
Frankly, for fluff's sake, Pathfinders should have been given Camouflage for having that point of armor reduced. That was a reduction for which they were given nothing in return. Other than that, their codex represents them properly.
Every army has its time in the sun. Don't begrudge Tau players theirs. Difficult armies are the best to fight against. I didn't win tournaments with my 4th ed DE by fighting pushover armies.
Don't try to pull Tau down to your skill level, raise your skill level up to compete with Tau armies.
You can't spell 'slaughter' without 'laughter'. By the time they scream... It's too late. DQ:70+S+++G++M+B+I+Pw40k94#-D+A++/areWD106R++T(R)DM+ Check my P&M blarg! - Ke'lshan Tau Fire Caste Contingent: Astartes Hunters
Flyrants need a Malanthrope/Venomthrope or VSG to make sure they aren't alpha striked off the table before they can fly.
Wraithknights, Dreadknights need help making sure they don't get tarpitted.
IKs need AA help (since they have literally no effective AA)
Wave Serpents are the closest to not needing support, but they require taking other units anyway.
Flyrants it's nice to have, not need, not like X points of only flyrants will be alphed that easily by X points of something else.
IKs: do tell about the awesome AA that an IA Riptide has access to. An IA Riptide needs just as much AA support as a Knight.
Tarpitting(NDK at least): If you've managed to tarpit a NDK between his excellent anti-hirde ranged weapons and the Teleporter then your opponent is doing something wrong.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/13 16:51:31
jreilly89 wrote: I think supporting fire is much more damaging. It really hurts assault, one of the areas that are most used to hurt Tau.
This is an understatement. Assault didn't just 'hurt' Tau. It was what made Tau nearly impossible to win with. Supporting Fire has given Tau a fair fighting chance in assault. Nothing more.
I see a lot of talk toward reducing the effectiveness of markerlights. I think some of you are forgetting that shooting is the only form of offense that Tau have and their BS is not high enough to make it reliable. The fact that they have to rely on markerlights adds the variable of 'maybe they'll get help, maybe not'.
The problem isn't the Tau. The problem is that people still harbor the dated notion that the Tau are supposed to be a pushover army. And if they're not easily crushed, then their codex was done wrong.
An army with high powered, long range weaponry which uses advanced tracking and targeting systems under high efficiency optics should actually be very difficult to defeat.
Frankly, for fluff's sake, Pathfinders should have been given Camouflage for having that point of armor reduced. That was a reduction for which they were given nothing in return. Other than that, their codex represents them properly.
Every army has its time in the sun. Don't begrudge Tau players theirs. Difficult armies are the best to fight against. I didn't win tournaments with my 4th ed DE by fighting pushover armies.
Don't try to pull Tau down to your skill level, raise your skill level up to compete with Tau armies.
I agree with what you are saying. My only issue with Tau is the discount awesomeness of Riptides.
The rest of the codex is very good and I believe they are in a very good place as far as balance goes otherwise.
Mmmh, it's a purchased upgrade (3.5 meltas), not sure if you realised that. Indifferent about it because it just makes the Riptide even more expensive. I would ignore the Riptide who has it.
Yeah it is expensive but everyone else complains about it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/13 16:53:49
If you cannot contribute without insulting or having a dig at other users then it's better you don't post at all.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
) and space wolves. The quad-riptide guy had fusion on all the riptides, and I ended up losing both knights in the two games against the Tau. I just forced them to play the way I wanted them to play, not let them shoot me off the board. That and targeting all the pathfinders t1 with the knights when I got to shoot helped secure the game for me.
By the time they scream... It's too late. 
