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Oh my.

 Desubot wrote:

 Forcast wrote:
You could also add a locator beacon to one or so of the storm ravens and have a no scatter deep strike, that way you never miss the "within 12" of two" part due to scatter....

Seems good

Am i missing something? if you via deep strike arriving within 2 homers, you dont scatter in that formation anyway

Also guys inside drop pods coming in via deep strike would count as deep strike right?

Suddenly T1 assault dreads YEAH!

This is the big question, especially when it comes to Furioso Dreads.
The formation rules state units arriving via deepstrike don't scatter. So if they're in a drop pod, technically they "arrive" via deep strike, without actually having the deep strike rule for that unit (because they're in the pod). The drop pod does not confer it's deep stike rule to the unit inside.
Since the fomation rule seems to only refer to the deep striking unit being affected (i.e. the drop pod) this opens the debate as to whether or not the units inside can assault.

Yeah its probably going to need a LOT of dissecting but it should be interesting week.

 Desubot wrote:


Suddenly T1 assault dreads YEAH!

I don't think you could assault with the Dreadnought on Turn 1 because, unless I am mistaken, the Dreadnought in the Pod would arrive first, because it comes in automatically.

Is there any rules page to that?

They would obviously not need to roll but you get to go through reserves and movement order at your own discretion IIRC.

And ether way though Chuck some Dreads on the underside of the ravens, bring more in T2 drop pods, lock and load for T2 massive assault with everyone poping out and charging all the things would be awesome i think.

 Desubot wrote:
Is there any rules page to that?

They would obviously not need to roll but you get to go through reserves and movement order at your own discretion IIRC.

And ether way though Chuck some Dreads on the underside of the ravens, bring more in T2 drop pods, lock and load for T2 massive assault with everyone poping out and charging all the things would be awesome i think.

Re-reading the Drop Pod page in the codex, there's nothing stopping you from bringing them in after the Stormravens. We've always played that Drop Pods arrive at the very start of Turn 1, before anything, including reserve rolls happen, and then the turn begins as usual; I guess we've just been playing a houserule this entire time and not realized it.

Good lord, this formation is OP as hell hahaha

I would still argue that a Dread wouldn't be able to assault since they don't deepstrike, the pod does. But it's still a super amazing formation. Even if it does take up 66% of your points after being equipped

Well if it didn't arrive via deeps. Then how did arrive

It deployed from a unit that arrived from deepstrike

if you DS in a transport, don't the contents count as having DS?

A unit is placed in deep strike reverse along with the unit its embarked upon and that's whats the formation requires.

@ hulk smash great find with the measuring from an embarked unit that makes this a tournament level army.

 Hulksmash wrote:
It deployed from a unit that arrived from deepstrike

This is the correct answer - the dreadnought doesn't have deep strike, it arrives from reserves, but the dreadnought itself never actually deep strikes. It disembarks from a vehicle.

The old Mystics "free shots" rule in C: DH was FAQd as allowing shots at both the pod and the disembarking unit as they both arrived from deep strike. Obviously out of date and different scenario, but some basis for the disembarking unit to be treated as having arrived from reserves via deepstrike.






[edit for accidental emoticon removal]

It doesn't really matter if the Dread counts as Deep Striking. Drop Pods have a specific rule disallowing assaults:

Drop Pod Assault: “(...) A unit that Deep Strikes via Drop Pod cannot charge in the turn it arrives.”

The formation's rule doesn't specifically remove that restriction.

In other news, I can't wait to see the detachment for the BA 2nd company and the Flesh Tearers. I'm sure at least one of them is going to be Fast Attack heavy. I'm not sure what's special about the 2nd company.

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
It doesn't really matter if the Dread counts as Deep Striking. Drop Pods have a specific rule disallowing assaults:

Drop Pod Assault: “(...) A unit that Deep Strikes via Drop Pod cannot charge in the turn it arrives.”

That passage is not in the 'Drop Pod Assault' rules in Codex Blood Angels. The only thing that would prevent them from assaulting on the turn they arrive from Deep Strike is in the main rulebook rules for 'Deep Strike' As such, it would be overridden by Basic versus Advanced. The Dreadnought would indeed be able to assault.

Glad I picked up those two Stormravens recently. Looks like I'll have to snag another.

Sadly, this means I'll be shelving my latest Ork project, yet again. Now I just need to find a list of all the BA Successor chapters and see what color scheme I want to paint up (because, frankly, as much as I loved my Lamenters, I really, really dislike painting yellow.)

I was just complaining on ToF about the lack of balance with assault. These detachments may take things too far (time will tell), but I appreciate GW being willing to try to swing the pendulum back.

 Ghaz wrote:

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
It doesn't really matter if the Dread counts as Deep Striking. Drop Pods have a specific rule disallowing assaults:

Drop Pod Assault: “(...) A unit that Deep Strikes via Drop Pod cannot charge in the turn it arrives.”

That passage is not in the 'Drop Pod Assault' rules in Codex Blood Angels. The only thing that would prevent them from assaulting on the turn they arrive from Deep Strike is in the main rulebook rules for 'Deep Strike' As such, it would be overridden by Basic versus Advanced. The Dreadnought would indeed be able to assault.

That isn't how the rules (or more fundamentally logic) works. The absence of something doesn't provide an exception. By your logic, the basic rules tell me to use a d6 but the codex BA doesn't mention that so I can use a d20 for each roll. See how that doesn't work? What you're mistakenly talking about would be correct if the codex provided an actual exception to the general rule of not assaulting after a deep strike like the old vanguard rules in the previous codex did. The dread can't assault out of a pod but he can do so if he uses skies of fury and deep strikes out the back of the storm ravens you're taking anyways.

Yes, that is how the rules work. You have a direct conflict, with one saying that you can not assault on the turn you Deep Strike and one saying you can assault on the turn you Deep Strike. Your example is flawed because there is no rule saying you can use a D20, but there is a rule saying you can assault after you Deep Strike.

The Angel's Fury Spearhead Detachment would allow the Dreadnought to assault as long as it was within range of the two homers.

 Ghaz wrote:
Yes, that is how the rules work. You have a direct conflict, with one saying that you can not assault on the turn you Deep Strike and one saying you can assault on the turn you Deep Strike. Your example is flawed because there is no rule saying you can use a D20, but there is a rule saying you can assault after you Deep Strike.

The Angel's Fury Spearhead Detachment would allow the Dreadnought to assault as long as it was within range of the two homers.

That would only be true if the dread was deepstriking... it isn't. The drop pod is. The dread is deep striking as much as the tacticals inside the storm ravens are zooming. Neither are; the transports they are in have the special rules and are doing so.

Sorry, but you making assumptions. The Dreadnought was inside the Drop Pod. where was the Drop Pod? In Deep Strike Reserve. The Dreadnought hence arrived from Deep Strike Reserve via the pod even though the Dreadnought itself did not Deep Strike.

Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike
Reserves. At the beginning of your first turn, half your Drop Pods (rounding up)
automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally.

I'm now on the side of dreads being able to assault on the drop.

I know everyone's doing the whole 'Dreadnoughts can/cannot assault after deepstriking' argument...and this may already have been answered...BUT...

Combining the Angel's Fury and Angel's Wrath formations seems to be sort of insane. Or am I reading things wrong here?

What I took away:
Angel's Fury comes in, zooms around erasing things turn 1.
Turn 2 I drop Angel's Wrath nearby 2 Ravens from Fury, no scatter on the Vanguards.
Two assault marine squads follow suit and don't scatter because of the 6" bubble from the VV.
I assault with all three squads that turn.

Not to mention the fire support from the Tacticals and Ravens.

This can't be right.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike
Reserves. At the beginning of your first turn, half your Drop Pods (rounding up)
automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally.

I'm now on the side of dreads being able to assault on the drop.

The line that says "and the units embarked upon them" seals the deal for the Dread being able to Assault. Since the Dread was in Deep Strike Reserve, that means the Formation's rule that units arriving from Deep Strike Reserve can assault applies. In other words, Furioso just got amazing.

 Frankenberry wrote:
I know everyone's doing the whole 'Dreadnoughts can/cannot assault after deepstriking' argument...and this may already have been answered...BUT...

Combining the Angel's Fury and Angel's Wrath formations seems to be sort of insane. Or am I reading things wrong here?

What I took away:
Angel's Fury comes in, zooms around erasing things turn 1.
Turn 2 I drop Angel's Wrath nearby 2 Ravens from Fury, no scatter on the Vanguards.
Two assault marine squads follow suit and don't scatter because of the 6" bubble from the VV.
I assault with all three squads that turn.

Not to mention the fire support from the Tacticals and Ravens.

This can't be right.

Sounds about right. Although instead of assault squads, I'd have Death Company squads .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike
Reserves. At the beginning of your first turn, half your Drop Pods (rounding up)
automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally.

I'm now on the side of dreads being able to assault on the drop.

The line that says "and the units embarked upon them" seals the deal for the Dread being able to Assault. Since the Dread was in Deep Strike Reserve, that means the Formation's rule that units arriving from Deep Strike Reserve can assault applies. In other words, Furioso just got amazing.

So Furioso with Talons? Or DC Dread with Talons?

 Hulksmash wrote:
Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike
Reserves. At the beginning of your first turn, half your Drop Pods (rounding up)
automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally.

I'm now on the side of dreads being able to assault on the drop.

Edit- I am a nub and forgot they are open topped somehow.

 Frankenberry wrote:
I know everyone's doing the whole 'Dreadnoughts can/cannot assault after deepstriking' argument...and this may already have been answered...BUT...

Combining the Angel's Fury and Angel's Wrath formations seems to be sort of insane. Or am I reading things wrong here?

What I took away:
Angel's Fury comes in, zooms around erasing things turn 1.
Turn 2 I drop Angel's Wrath nearby 2 Ravens from Fury, no scatter on the Vanguards.
Two assault marine squads follow suit and don't scatter because of the 6" bubble from the VV.
I assault with all three squads that turn.

Not to mention the fire support from the Tacticals and Ravens.

This can't be right.

I think it can be extremely strong. even op and broken. but we will need to see.

being able to unload a payload of death at basicly 24" on T1 is going to be nuts.

But i think the best to do at that point is to counter deploy by litterally lining your table edge and possibiily splitting up your forces. it makes em choose to go to one side or another and makes it hard to get that T1 charge. T2 is another story though

benjak wrote:
So Furioso with Talons? Or DC Dread with Talons?

Furioso so you can take the Archangels Detachment to maximize the amount of Angry Washing Machines you can throw at someone.

 Frankenberry wrote:
I know everyone's doing the whole 'Dreadnoughts can/cannot assault after deepstriking' argument...and this may already have been answered...BUT...

Combining the Angel's Fury and Angel's Wrath formations seems to be sort of insane. Or am I reading things wrong here?

What I took away:
Angel's Fury comes in, zooms around erasing things turn 1.
Turn 2 I drop Angel's Wrath nearby 2 Ravens from Fury, no scatter on the Vanguards.
Two assault marine squads follow suit and don't scatter because of the 6" bubble from the VV.
I assault with all three squads that turn.

Not to mention the fire support from the Tacticals and Ravens.

This can't be right.

As long as the Assault Squads also arrive within 12" of two of the formation's teleport homers, otherwise they don't get to assault that turn.

So is anyone looking at the Priest equipped with Angel's Wing to stop interception by the Tau Ap2 Large blast. Deploy the squad with Priest and drop directly behind them close as possible that way if they try and pie plate it the template will touch his squad.

 Redemption wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
I know everyone's doing the whole 'Dreadnoughts can/cannot assault after deepstriking' argument...and this may already have been answered...BUT...

Combining the Angel's Fury and Angel's Wrath formations seems to be sort of insane. Or am I reading things wrong here?

What I took away:
Angel's Fury comes in, zooms around erasing things turn 1.
Turn 2 I drop Angel's Wrath nearby 2 Ravens from Fury, no scatter on the Vanguards.
Two assault marine squads follow suit and don't scatter because of the 6" bubble from the VV.
I assault with all three squads that turn.

Not to mention the fire support from the Tacticals and Ravens.

This can't be right.

As long as the Assault Squads also arrive within 12" of two of the formation's teleport homers, otherwise they don't get to assault that turn.

And if you're within 12" you don't scatter anyway. Angels Fury actually improves Angels Wrath as you potentially have a little more flexibility to try to try to take advantage of meteoric impact.