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I've been going over a couple of Christmas Crazy boxes I've had for the last couple of years, including those from this year. Adding in Dwarf Kings Hold, this is what I've come up with.

30 Basilean Men-At-Arms (unassembled)
20 Basilean Sisters cavalry (unassembled)
3 Elven Standard Bearers with Swords
3 Elven Standard Bearers with Bows
2 Elven musicians
2 Elven musicians with bows
17 Elven swordsmen
8 Elven Spearmen
35 Elven Archers
Various non mantic Elven characters over the years. Plus Koriss/Hounds/Genie


And, for the sake of completeness:
About a dozen orcs
Several ogres
A couple of Undead models.



So... Having taken part in the new kickstarter, pretty much entirely for the background in the rulebook, I was just wondering what precisely I can make for a playable army out of this. I'm aware of the rules allowing allies from the various Good+Neutral factions (or Evil+Neutral), so I'm assuming that'd help.

Anyone got any thoughts of a sensible force to make out of this? I've got some olde high elf bolt throwers from warhammer fantasy which could lend a hand too, plus other elements of that.

Not knowing anything about how the games played, aside from the Beasts of War youtube demo game, that I sorta half paid attention to, I'm throwing it open to the forum for ideas.

For example, I've got 30 basilean men at arms, I know the game fields units of 10, 20 and 40. - Should I be looking at maybe 20 spears, 10 swords? Or the other way round?

I think there's something called Elven Palace Guard or something, I could use my Elven swordsmen as them easily enough. It seems possible that I can cover all the bases, really. 20 units of 20 archers (including command), 1 unit of 10 Elven spearmen, 20 basileans, 10 basileans, then 2 units of 10 cavalry, plus some added old bolt throwers and characters for extra support.

Am I missing anything vitally important in this rough plan? Anyone got any tips or thoughts?

One thing to remember, 30 models in Kings of War can easily mean 2 regiments with multi basing if you so desire. It's the footprint of the unit that is most important, not the number of models.

Yeah, I would suggest writing out a list which uses maybe 20-30% more of each model than you have, then thematically base them on bases which would correspond to 5, 10 and 20 soldiers but which may contain only 5, 7 and 15 models (or less).

Fill the extra space with cool stuff like limbs sticking out from under a rock flung by a catapult, people trying to climb out of a pit trap, a table with maps on it, etc...

Since you don't remove models until the entire unit is kaput, the actual number of models matters less than in whfb.

Cheers, I'll need to think about that. Though making unit fillers will probably end up being more effort than I'll end up doing.

How do formations and ranks work in KOW? I've not really heard anyone talk about them, or any benefits of deploying deep vs shallow, or spread out etc.

All units are of similar size. A Dwarf regiment should be 100mm x 80mm, which is the same size as a Elf regiment. Orcs are bigger. An orc regiment will be 125mm x 100mm. There is a PDFs somewhere, which lists all the sizes of units but in a quick search, I couldn't find it.

You don't even need unit fillers, you could space out 15, 16 elves on a base 100mm x 80mm in size.

Kings of War is element or unit based. That means all that matters is the footprint of the unit - in normal cases, a regiment being 100mmx80mm. You can have 1 guy on there or 20 guys or 782 guys in a giant pile, for game purposes it's a regiment and is the correct size for a regiment and has the statistics of a regiment.

I've got to admit, it's a bit disappointing then that the game doesn't seem add any tactical options for say, someone wanting to deploy a unit of 40 deployed 5x8, or deployed 10x4, then.

If everything just seems standardised in a specific block/width, it's just, well, not as interesting to me, I guess.

Yes, it is annoying you can't deploy in a line rather than a block or wedge, etc...

This might change in KoW2 which is coming out in the Summer.

Why would it change? No-one has said it would change. It is one of the selling points of KOWs. Just watch any interview with Ronnie Renton during the KOW kickstarter and then tell someone it might change...

 RobertsMinis wrote:
All units are of similar size. A Dwarf regiment should be 100mm x 80mm, which is the same size as a Elf regiment. Orcs are bigger. An orc regiment will be 125mm x 100mm. There is a PDFs somewhere, which lists all the sizes of units but in a quick search, I couldn't find it.

You don't even need unit fillers, you could space out 15, 16 elves on a base 100mm x 80mm in size.

Is there someplace where we can buy bases in these sizes? I would especially love it if they have indentations for Mantic minis' tabs. I tried buying plasticard and cutting it to measure, but it was just too tedious for me and the end results were disappointing.


PS: I will mail an actual cookie* to anyone who is willing to write lists for me to use Arcane Legions minis as 3 Mantic KoW armies. I have lots of Arcane Legions Han, Egyptians and Romans that I want to multibase for Kings of War so I can fool myself into believing I will paint them soon, but I just can't make myself write lists or determine how I should base what unit for a game. Tell me how many of what model to use on what base and I'll be happy. I just want to know that someday I could use them for a game.

*I will seriously mail an Oreo to anyone who helps me out. But since it will be passing through the USPS and any foreign mail services, you probably shouldn't eat it.

 RobertsMinis wrote:
Why would it change? No-one has said it would change. It is one of the selling points of KOWs. Just watch any interview with Ronnie Renton during the KOW kickstarter and then tell someone it might change...

I'm not saying it will or that it is likely. I personally, as would the OP, would quite like the flexibility of altering the formation of the troops that you deploy.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:


Is there someplace where we can buy bases in these sizes? I would especially love it if they have indentations for Mantic minis' tabs. I tried buying plasticard and cutting it to measure, but it was just too tedious for me and the end results were disappointing.

Renedra - http://www.renedra.co.uk/product.php?product=154 100mm x 80 mm

I have my Dwarfs on them. They are already on 20mm bases and hot glued onto the Renedra base in case I start playing other games. See below



You also have MDF from Warbases, who do KOW trays. they have holes to glue the integral bases into

http://war-bases.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=68_75

Lots of KOWers use these and they also do custom stuff. I'm sure there are US companies who can/could/are doing similar.

Here's what it looks like when you multibase maybe 13/20 models onto a 100x80mm display base. (think the skeletons are 15 strong)


So here you can see I didn't really bother much with unit filler, as much as I just added some terrain for them to be moving around, and tweaked the direction some of them were facing just a bit.

Something about not being able to change the unit sizes around to make them wider or narrower... Well hordes are wider, they really don't cost much more than regiments either. Basically you're buying a tougher unit with more nerve (unit-wounds) and more attacks, that also has a wider frontage. But there's none of that finicky stuff like from WHFB where a wide unit has to be concerned about missing attacks against a narrow one because units just roll the attacks on their profile when they attack, as long as you can reach your opponent you make a 'full attack' regardless. So given the way the rules interact, adjusting unit shape isn't really so much a thing here.

If it lacks depth for you, that's unfortunate, but KoW makes some sacrifices to achieve it's balance and speed I guess.

I also thought you couldn't make useful units in WHFB that were less than 5 wide anymore, at least it was like that in 7th ed, they did away with rank bonus for 4-wide units (not a bad way to deploy skaven who benefited from deep ranks and had crap for attacks anyway).

A question for those who do unit basing like in Grimdork's photos: how do you store and transport those units?

That's a good question, one I shall have to find a good answer for should I end up moving them around =/

I've heard good things about magnet-friendly sheet metal and sheets of craft magnets used on the bottom of the base, or as the bottom or whatever.

 JoshInJapan wrote:
A question for those who do unit basing like in Grimdork's photos: how do you store and transport those units?

Deep pluck foam trays was what I was using before I sold off both my armies and the case.
I think the bag was Army Transport?
Deep enough to allow spearmen (but not so deep you have to drop the units into the foam) with a thumb slot to reach 'neath the tray.
Worked fairly well for over 2 years.

What is wrong with cardbord boxes packed with foam stuff... If you have been ordering online for any length of time, you'll pick up lots of handy packing materials.

Magnets. The bases below are all from Warbases, who do custom jobs. For 10p per base they will drill a 5mm hole into each corner, into which is inserted a single magnet. Works best with plastic models, due to much less weight per base. Metal you might need an extra 1 or 2 magnets positioned centrally.

 GrimDork wrote:
If it lacks depth for you, that's unfortunate, but KoW makes some sacrifices to achieve it's balance and speed I guess.

Not complaining, just saying it would be nice.

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 GrimDork wrote:
If it lacks depth for you, that's unfortunate, but KoW makes some sacrifices to achieve it's balance and speed I guess.

Not complaining, just saying it would be nice.

I don't see why it would be if it doesn't add anything to the game, and in fact would detract from the speed of setup and play. It's one of those granular things that Fantasy thinks is so important, despite the game's scale being 'zoomed out' to a point where it really isn't. I've played a fair amount of Kings of War and at no point have wished to be able to reorganise units how I like.

 Riquende wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 GrimDork wrote:
If it lacks depth for you, that's unfortunate, but KoW makes some sacrifices to achieve it's balance and speed I guess.

Not complaining, just saying it would be nice.

I don't see why it would be if it doesn't add anything to the game, and in fact would detract from the speed of setup and play. It's one of those granular things that Fantasy thinks is so important, despite the game's scale being 'zoomed out' to a point where it really isn't. I've played a fair amount of Kings of War and at no point have wished to be able to reorganise units how I like.

Dude. Opinion. Relax.

Maybe I want to screen units or areas of the board more effectively. Or I want to replicate formations seen in actual warfare. As you say, it is not like unit formation plays a significant role in the game other than setting up the board.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Is there someplace where we can buy bases in these sizes? I would especially love it if they have indentations for Mantic minis' tabs. I tried buying plasticard and cutting it to measure, but it was just too tedious for me and the end results were disappointing.

PS: I will mail an actual cookie* to anyone who is willing to write lists for me to use Arcane Legions minis as 3 Mantic KoW armies. I have lots of Arcane Legions Han, Egyptians and Romans that I want to multibase for Kings of War so I can fool myself into believing I will paint them soon, but I just can't make myself write lists or determine how I should base what unit for a game. Tell me how many of what model to use on what base and I'll be happy. I just want to know that someday I could use them for a game.

*I will seriously mail an Oreo to anyone who helps me out. But since it will be passing through the USPS and any foreign mail services, you probably shouldn't eat it.

Warbases. I have bought about a trillion of them. http://war-bases.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=68_75
(I have extras, I can send you some when we finalize our ghoul trade)
(in fact some of them I had custom made, which they added to the store after I ordered them - the 8 and 9 hole troop trays, as they are placed not in a uniform way, to make stuff look more random and chaotic so your skeletons aren't all in perfect marching order)

Also, I started to semi write lists for Arcane Legions (since like half of my gaming group has AL minis due to MiniMarket), and I'd be happy to help you with them. I wrote up Azazelx's army lists as well. I'm just a Kings of War Whore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Compel wrote:
I've got to admit, it's a bit disappointing then that the game doesn't seem add any tactical options for say, someone wanting to deploy a unit of 40 deployed 5x8, or deployed 10x4, then.

If everything just seems standardised in a specific block/width, it's just, well, not as interesting to me, I guess.

Well, think about it this way.

Warhammer is pretty much the only active system that allows such granularity - and you pay for it with a massive reduction in speed of play. DBx, HC/PS/BP, most historical gaming, uses fixed unit sizes. It's very superior to individual unit basing, especially as granular/individual unit basing invents "tactics" that weren't present in real life ("my regiment is 2 men wider than yours so it is 25% better!")

Kings of War, as with the billions of other element-based games, utilize the basing element as a LEGO building block of your lines. Since most Kings of War games are 2000+ points, you'll have more than a dozen units on just your side of the table, forming actual battle lines, often two full lines with reserve units. The idea of 12x3 or 9x4 or some other interesting sized fiddly unit is replaced by your standardized units forming up together into actual lines of battle that can ebb and flow and be broken through - and being more historically accurate than any rigid line of some random number by some other random number deathstar on the table that only makes sense due to bizarre rules and not reality.

 SilverMK2 wrote:

Dude. Opinion. Relax.

I'm perfectly relaxed, and I have opinions as well. Please don't characterise what I'm saying as some sort of rant, it doesn't become you.

Maybe I want to screen units or areas of the board more effectively. Or I want to replicate formations seen in actual warfare. As you say, it is not like unit formation plays a significant role in the game other than setting up the board.

You first want can be achieved be using Troops instead of Regiments, it essentially splits the regiment in half and allows each half to fight side by side, gaining attacks (or shots if ranged troops) in return for each half having reduced Nerve (and not unlocking heroes/war machines). Is that what you're after?

I'm not sure what you mean by ' formations seen in actual warfare'. Are there recorded battles with units of say, 6 guys wide by 5 deep that you feel you need to represent? Or do you mean formations that aren't roughly rectangular? If so, you'd have to try and achieve them using the Troops and Regiments as the building blocks to achieve a larger version, much as probably happened in the actual warfare you're thinking of.

 Riquende wrote:
I'm perfectly relaxed, and I have opinions as well. Please don't characterise what I'm saying as some sort of rant, it doesn't become you.

Of course you have opinions - I'm not the one telling you that they are wrong and against the entire spirit of the game though

You first want can be achieved be using Troops instead of Regiments, it essentially splits the regiment in half and allows each half to fight side by side, gaining attacks (or shots if ranged troops) in return for each half having reduced Nerve (and not unlocking heroes/war machines). Is that what you're after?

I'm of course aware that I can simply take more of different types of "block" and arrange them in different ways to make up screening formations etc

And no, I am after (if "after" is taken to mean "would vaguely enjoy seeing the option for but is quite happy with how things are") being able to put down a regiment in more than one shape (ie formed into line, or into a block, or in some cases perhaps wedge or square) and have that still be a single unit.

I'm not sure what you mean by ' formations seen in actual warfare'. Are there recorded battles with units of say, 6 guys wide by 5 deep that you feel you need to represent? Or do you mean formations that aren't roughly rectangular?

I am of course referring to the well known real formations of 20 guys standing around on a big wooden board with rocks and grass cemented to it while the general mooches around with a giant tape measure

However, all of this is extremely incidental to the thread at hand.

Edit: Quotes fixed

 RobertsMinis wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:


Is there someplace where we can buy bases in these sizes? I would especially love it if they have indentations for Mantic minis' tabs. I tried buying plasticard and cutting it to measure, but it was just too tedious for me and the end results were disappointing.

Renedra - http://www.renedra.co.uk/product.php?product=154 100mm x 80 mm

I have my Dwarfs on them. They are already on 20mm bases and hot glued onto the Renedra base in case I start playing other games. See below

You also have MDF from Warbases, who do KOW trays. they have holes to glue the integral bases into

http://war-bases.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=68_75

Lots of KOWers use these and they also do custom stuff. I'm sure there are US companies who can/could/are doing similar.

Excellent. Thank you! The Renedra ones look really useful for using any already-based minis that can be adapted for KoW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 judgedoug wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Is there someplace where we can buy bases in these sizes? I would especially love it if they have indentations for Mantic minis' tabs. I tried buying plasticard and cutting it to measure, but it was just too tedious for me and the end results were disappointing.

PS: I will mail an actual cookie* to anyone who is willing to write lists for me to use Arcane Legions minis as 3 Mantic KoW armies. I have lots of Arcane Legions Han, Egyptians and Romans that I want to multibase for Kings of War so I can fool myself into believing I will paint them soon, but I just can't make myself write lists or determine how I should base what unit for a game. Tell me how many of what model to use on what base and I'll be happy. I just want to know that someday I could use them for a game.

*I will seriously mail an Oreo to anyone who helps me out. But since it will be passing through the USPS and any foreign mail services, you probably shouldn't eat it.

Warbases. I have bought about a trillion of them. http://war-bases.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=68_75
(I have extras, I can send you some when we finalize our ghoul trade)
(in fact some of them I had custom made, which they added to the store after I ordered them - the 8 and 9 hole troop trays, as they are placed not in a uniform way, to make stuff look more random and chaotic so your skeletons aren't all in perfect marching order)

Also, I started to semi write lists for Arcane Legions (since like half of my gaming group has AL minis due to MiniMarket), and I'd be happy to help you with them. I wrote up Azazelx's army lists as well. I'm just a Kings of War Whore.

The non-orderly bases seem like they would work thematically for dwarf berserkers or elf scouts to really make them stand apart from their ranked brethren. That's great!

I'd really appreciate the help! My wife saw some of the Arcane Legion minis that arrived the other day and is interested in playing...but if I can segue that interest into trying Kings of War, everybody wins, and by "everybody" I mean me. I win.
The mini bases on the Arcane Legions minis also fit perfectly into Mantic bases, so it's hard to argue against counts-as kismet.

PS: I don't think I'll be able to ship those ghouls out by Christmas.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

The non-orderly bases seem like they would work thematically for dwarf berserkers or elf scouts to really make them stand apart from their ranked brethren. That's great!

I'd really appreciate the help! My wife saw some of the Arcane Legion minis that arrived the other day and is interested in playing...but if I can segue that interest into trying Kings of War, everybody wins, and by "everybody" I mean me. I win.
The mini bases on the Arcane Legions minis also fit perfectly into Mantic bases, so it's hard to argue against counts-as kismet.

PS: I don't think I'll be able to ship those ghouls out by Christmas.

No prob, I don't think I'll be able to find trade fodder for the ghouls until this weekend when I have some post-Holidays downtime (and do the Arcane Legions counts-as list that's half finished)

 Compel wrote:
Cheers, I'll need to think about that. Though making unit fillers will probably end up being more effort than I'll end up doing.

How do formations and ranks work in KOW? I've not really heard anyone talk about them, or any benefits of deploying deep vs shallow, or spread out etc.

I base all of my figures on 25mm rounds b̶e̶c̶a̶u̶s̶e̶ ̶I̶'̶m̶ ̶a̶ ̶r̶e̶n̶e̶g̶a̶d̶e̶ because I prefer that style of base and it means I can blu-tac them to a plastic regiment base (or thick card) for KoW and then remove them for other skirmish games. Like this:




Orcs and my eventual unofficial Chaos Warriors and Beastmen will be 1-1 as far as figures go (25mm squares to 25mm rounds) - but for Humans, Dwaves, Basilieans, Elves, Undead, etc, it means I use 12 figures for a Regiment of "20" (4x3) and 24 figures for a Horde of "40".

I haven't finished yet, but I'll be converting all my cavalry figures to 40mm rounds, so that a Troop is only 3 models (instead of 5) and a Regiment is 6 (instead of 10).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 RobertsMinis wrote:
All units are of similar size. A Dwarf regiment should be 100mm x 80mm, which is the same size as a Elf regiment. Orcs are bigger. An orc regiment will be 125mm x 100mm. There is a PDFs somewhere, which lists all the sizes of units but in a quick search, I couldn't find it.

You don't even need unit fillers, you could space out 15, 16 elves on a base 100mm x 80mm in size.

Is there someplace where we can buy bases in these sizes? I would especially love it if they have indentations for Mantic minis' tabs. I tried buying plasticard and cutting it to measure, but it was just too tedious for me and the end results were disappointing.


PS: I will mail an actual cookie* to anyone who is willing to write lists for me to use Arcane Legions minis as 3 Mantic KoW armies. I have lots of Arcane Legions Han, Egyptians and Romans that I want to multibase for Kings of War so I can fool myself into believing I will paint them soon, but I just can't make myself write lists or determine how I should base what unit for a game. Tell me how many of what model to use on what base and I'll be happy. I just want to know that someday I could use them for a game.

*I will seriously mail an Oreo to anyone who helps me out. But since it will be passing through the USPS and any foreign mail services, you probably shouldn't eat it.

PM me the figures that you have and which armies you'd like to use them for (and maybe some picture links?), and I'll see what I can do. Doug helped me out enormously by drawing up my first 6 lists for my first two armies, and now I'm quite comfortable writing them up myself. Just be warned that the army lists will change in 6 months or so when the KS starts to drop the new rules.

Also, no cookie. Australian Customs really dislikes that sort of thing.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 GrimDork wrote:
Here's what it looks like when you multibase maybe 13/20 models onto a 100x80mm display base. (think the skeletons are 15 strong)

Spoiler:

they turned out great, Grim!

 Azazelx wrote:



PM me the figures that you have and which armies you'd like to use them for (and maybe some picture links?), and I'll see what I can do. Doug helped me out enormously by drawing up my first 6 lists for my first two armies, and now I'm quite comfortable writing them up myself. Just be warned that the army lists will change in 6 months or so when the KS starts to drop the new rules.

Also, no cookie. Australian Customs really dislikes that sort of thing.

PM sent. Cookie not sent.

Since Arcane Legions minis come in regular packs of 40 infantry or 15 cavalry (14 for Romans), I wonder if it would be easy to devise generic lists based on the contents of say, 2 infantry boxes and a cavalry box.

It will also depend on how many figures you're willing/wanting to use in each "stand" - officially 20 figures, but with either multi-basing or using larger bases, you can stretch your figures a lot further. Or you can just go 1-1 for denser looking units - but it's important to know your preference for that up front.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Since Arcane Legions minis come in regular packs of 40 infantry or 15 cavalry (14 for Romans), I wonder if it would be easy to devise generic lists based on the contents of say, 2 infantry boxes and a cavalry box.

I had a look at the boxes and here are some suggestions for how to translate that into a Kingdom of Man list for Kings of War.

For a 1000 point battle:

20 mixed light legionaries as Shield Wall regiment, 80p
20 mixed light legionaries as Shield Wall regiment, 80p
10 mixed light legionaries as Shield Wall troop, 60p
10 archers as Missile Troop Block troop, 75p
10 archers as Missile Troop Block troop, 75p
10 heavy legionaries as Foot Guard troop with crushing strength, 90p
10 cavalry on horses as Mounted Sargeants regiment, 125p
1 cavalry on bear as General on ground mount, 130p
1 cavalry on bear as General on ground mount, 130p
1 cavalry on bear as General on ground mount, 130p

The main issue is lack of warmachines and a lot of points in characters. If you go for this size I would suggest grabbing one of the Arcane Legions Siege Engine boxes and use those as 2 Cannons replacing one of the Generals.

You can of course use less than the default number of figures per unit in order to make some more units or increase the size of some units. Especially heavy legionaries and cavalry can benefit greatly from fewer figures per base. I think you can easily go up to 1500p with this. You can also use the bear mounted guys as for example Knights, although then you need something else if you want to play with characters. Best would be if you can find some guys with banners, or someone that looks like a roman priest.