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Speaking personally, I dislike the new DE book for a few reasons:

1) it just feels lacking in flavour - with a lot of unique and interesting ones being stripped out for boring, generic ones. And, that's on top of us losing most of our SCs, and yet being charged twice as much for the privilege.

2) The balance seems all over the place, with a lot of unnecessary over-nerfing of stuff. Why did the Splinter Cannon need a 5pt increase *and* the Salvo rule? It wasn't even close to OP. Likewise, why did the liquifier gun need to go down to S3 *and* go up in price by 5pts? Sorry, but no way is it worth 50% more than a Heavy Flamer. Why on Earth did the Hellglaive need to be made worse? Are you seriously telling me that someone at GW thought Hellions were too strong? And, this is after they lost the only Character who made them even remotely worthwhile. Also, why even bother keeping the Mindphase Gauntlet or Electrocorrosive Whip if you're just going to make them utterly worthless? Also, why, when wyches lost their only meaningful role (anti-tank) did they then stay the same cost, while warriors got cheaper? Was someone at GW adamant that they not sell a single wych kit?

And, really? We're S3 and can only get the worse possible Power Weapon... and it still costs us 15pts?

Oh, and if you were going to make the Torment Grenade Launcher a stupid, useless weapon, could you perhaps have relented and let our units have some grenades in exchange? No? Too much to ask?

3) There are also other things that really annoy me. Why isn't the Archon allowed a single AP2 weapon? Instead, the Huskblade was made AP3, making it worthless against the vast majority of targets you'd actually want to use it on. And, our artefact sword is even more of a joke. "Hey, you remember that sword no one used in 5th or 6th because it was a plie of crap? Well, maybe if we add 5pts to its cost, it will come full circle and be useful again."

Also, why did Shadowfield need to get a big price-hike? Couldn't you just make it non-rerollable to stop any nonsense with Eldar?

And why can our HQs still not ride Jetbikes or Skyboards?

Any why is Ravager best when skulking behind ruins? This thing is supposed to be incredibly fast, but has to start snapshotting weapons if it moves too fast. That's basically the exact opposite of its flavour. Oh, and it pays 15pts extra to have its fluff butchered. Nice.

4) It just feels like there was very little effort made to actually bring it in line with 7th edition. Where are our skyfire weapons? Why are Dark Lances still worse than Lascannons in 90% of scenarios? Could they not have left their old (overpriced) cost and made them AP1? Or, give them and Blasters a more reasonable discount - since they now have half the chance to explode a vehicle. And, I see that there's still no way to twin-link them, and not a single anti-vehicle weapon with multiple shots.


I do quite like the haemonculus supplement (and would like it much more if it was included in the damn codex) - since that at least gives the impression that effort has been put into it, with some interesting artefacts and a Warlord table that isn't just a middle-finger. Though, even that has issues - like Wracks being outright worse than Grotesques and not getting anything to compensate (objective secured would have been nice, or perhaps a bonus to counteract the fact that half the PFP table doesn't work on them). But, it's still a vast improvement on the main book.


Dalymiddleboro, congratulations on your win. If you enter another tournament, might I suggest you (and your partner, if applicable) try a wych cult list with the new book? You know, Succubus, wyches, bloodbrides, hellions etc., and see if you can take home another win?

I bought the DE codex to supplement my already stupidly OP Eldar: Codex Webway Portal.

Reading through it though, I like it. I look forward to expanding my 2 Archons and 10 warriors (and 1 venom and 1 raider) into a full-fledged Dark Eldar raiding list. I plan to take slaves and skulls (and skin; apparently that's a thing)!

The codex CAN beat AdLance, which is something my Eldar have struggled to do on their own (hence the acquisition of a Webway Portal to drop my Fire Dragons where they are needed). On the flip side, I've never lost to Dark Eldar in a tournament game while playing my Eldar. /shrug Plus: The models are fantastic!

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Mr.bacon wrote:
Ogryns are pretty bad outside of bullgryns. I mean Ogryns are expensive and it all looks nice until you notice that they have a 5+ save and no assault transport outside of a land raider. Don't get me started on rough rider they took an already bad unit and nerfed even more! I mean they lost there special character who made them decent in melee and they got more expensive. As a fast melta bomb there too damn fragile.

On topic: many DE players don't like the new book because it took so many options away. No special characters, whyches are pretty bad no matter what the local guy who sayss the internet is wrong says, and there anti tank is abysmal. Lance isn good at destroying av 14 though the problem is that av 14 is rarely seen funny enough because one of those reasons is lance. Also dalymiddlebro I'm wondering what armies you and your partner played against? Though I don't you won't answer me. Also what list were you guys running?

What are you talking about...blasters and lances melt armor 14...

Agreed
The issues is that are not cost effective versus armor 11 and 12, which is much more common

Akiasura wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Mr.bacon wrote:
Ogryns are pretty bad outside of bullgryns. I mean Ogryns are expensive and it all looks nice until you notice that they have a 5+ save and no assault transport outside of a land raider. Don't get me started on rough rider they took an already bad unit and nerfed even more! I mean they lost there special character who made them decent in melee and they got more expensive. As a fast melta bomb there too damn fragile.

On topic: many DE players don't like the new book because it took so many options away. No special characters, whyches are pretty bad no matter what the local guy who sayss the internet is wrong says, and there anti tank is abysmal. Lance isn good at destroying av 14 though the problem is that av 14 is rarely seen funny enough because one of those reasons is lance. Also dalymiddlebro I'm wondering what armies you and your partner played against? Though I don't you won't answer me. Also what list were you guys running?

What are you talking about...blasters and lances melt armor 14...

Agreed
The issues is that are not cost effective versus armor 11 and 12, which is much more common

Haywire scourges edge out dark light weapons in pretty much every way now.

I like the new Dark Eldar WAY more then the old Dark Eldar. I think some of you may be stuck in a cloud of nostalgia, let me snap you back out of it.

The Last codex's internal balances was way worse then the one we now have. HQ = Baron Troops = Venoms Elites = Blasterborn FA = Either Beastpack or nothing HS = Ravagers. Then spinkle in Eldar allies to taste.

Competitively, that was our last codex, and your not like to convince me otherwise. Gunboats had their place, so did Incubi, but not in competitive games. I made an 11 page thread about how our old codex had not a single answer to the Wave Serpent problem other then ''Play better''. You couldn't play anything else or be laughed out the room.

Sure, you remember the fun games of the Duke being a pimp, or the Baron leading Hellions, but those characters were introduced for a single codex, and were removed the next. It happens sometimes, ask Nadu Fireheart.

Now, almost every unit in the army is usable. Wyches lost Haywire grenades, but did they truly deserve them in the first place? You complain about fluff butchery of the current Ravager while defending the Butchery of these apparent anti-tank extraordinaires? Scourges are now great, Reavers top tier, Beaststar may be gone but MSU Beastpack is still a threat. Mandrakes won't have you laughed out the room, Grotesques are a force to be reckoned with, Talosi the menacing meat monsters they were meant to be. Despite your claims, our Gunboats became a whole lot more survivable, claiming a 3+ Jink save whenever they like. Not everything ignores cover you know.

Hellions still suck. Wracks are Meh along with Wyches. Fliers slightly overcosted. But they have gotten 80% of the codex right, where the previous version allowed maybe 30% to be used. That's an improvement by anyones standards.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
I like the new Dark Eldar WAY more then the old Dark Eldar. I think some of you may be stuck in a cloud of nostalgia, let me snap you back out of it.

The Last codex's internal balances was way worse then the one we now have. HQ = Baron Troops = Venoms Elites = Blasterborn FA = Either Beastpack or nothing HS = Ravagers. Then spinkle in Eldar allies to taste.

Competitively, that was our last codex, and your not like to convince me otherwise. Gunboats had their place, so did Incubi, but not in competitive games. I made an 11 page thread about how our old codex had not a single answer to the Wave Serpent problem other then ''Play better''. You couldn't play anything else or be laughed out the room.

Sure, you remember the fun games of the Duke being a pimp, or the Baron leading Hellions, but those characters were introduced for a single codex, and were removed the next. It happens sometimes, ask Nadu Fireheart.

Now, almost every unit in the army is usable. Wyches lost Haywire grenades, but did they truly deserve them in the first place? You complain about fluff butchery of the current Ravager while defending the Butchery of these apparent anti-tank extraordinaires? Scourges are now great, Reavers top tier, Beaststar may be gone but MSU Beastpack is still a threat. Mandrakes won't have you laughed out the room, Grotesques are a force to be reckoned with, Talosi the menacing meat monsters they were meant to be. Despite your claims, our Gunboats became a whole lot more survivable, claiming a 3+ Jink save whenever they like. Not everything ignores cover you know.

Hellions still suck. Wracks are Meh along with Wyches. Fliers slightly overcosted. But they have gotten 80% of the codex right, where the previous version allowed maybe 30% to be used. That's an improvement by anyones standards.

I agree with all of this except for the razorwing jetfighter being over costed. It's a bargain for its points.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
I like the new Dark Eldar WAY more then the old Dark Eldar. I think some of you may be stuck in a cloud of nostalgia, let me snap you back out of it. Oh look, a talking magpie. I'm surprised you managed to tear yourself away from the shininess of the new DE book to type this.

Don't comments like this or about nostalgia goggles just add sooo much to our respective arguments?

The Last codex's internal balances was way worse then the one we now have. It was bad, yes, but no worse than the current one. HQ = Baron I believe Haemoncui were fine too. As was the Duke. And, many of the others were decent, though not as good as those.Troops = Venoms Which aren't a troop choice.Elites = Blasterborn I know others liked Incubi or Grotesques, but I'll admit I never saw the appeal myself. FA = Either Beastpack or nothing That's a but much. Reavers were certainly good before. HS = Ravagers. This one I do agree with, sadly. Then spinkle in Eldar allies to taste.

Competitively, that was our last codex, and your not like to convince me otherwise. Good to keep an open mind. Gunboats had their place, so did Incubi, but not in competitive games. I made an 11 page thread about how our old codex had not a single answer to the Wave Serpent problem other then ''Play better''. What do you consider the current answer? You couldn't play anything else or be laughed out the room.

Sure, you remember the fun games of the Duke being a pimp, or the Baron leading Hellions, but those characters were introduced for a single codex, and were removed the next. It happens sometimes, ask Nadu Fireheart. But why? Why is it that other books are allowed page upon page of characters, yet we've had all but 3 removed? And yet we're paying markedly more for less content.

Now, almost every unit in the army is usable Lol. Keep deluding yourself. . Wyches lost Haywire grenades, but did they truly deserve them in the first place? You complain about fluff butchery of the current Ravager while defending the Butchery of these apparent anti-tank extraordinaires? No, I agree - wyches being anti-tank units was silly. Let me try again - my complaint isn't that they lost access to grenades. My complaint is that they lost access to grenades and gained nothing in return. They're absolutely abysmal at combat - you know, that thing they're supposed to excel at. At least with grenades they had a role, if an unfluffy one. Now there is no reason whatsoever to include them. Scourges are now great, No disagreement there. Reavers top tier, Beaststar may be gone but MSU Beastpack is still a threat I do find it weird that you can basically just take a squad of Beastmasters as Hellions +1. . Mandrakes won't have you laughed out the room, Yes they will. Grotesques are a force to be reckoned with, Indeed. Shame about Wracks. Talosi the menacing meat monsters they were meant to be.Again, no objections. Despite your claims, our Gunboats became a whole lot more survivable, claiming a 3+ Jink save whenever they like.Your statement here confuses me - did I say gunboats weren't survivable? Not everything ignores cover you know.

Hellions still suck. Wracks are Meh along with Wyches. I think wyches are a lot more than 'meh', and the less said about Bloodbrides the better. Fliers slightly overcosted I'd argue the Bomber is a lot more than 'slightly'.. But they have gotten 80% of the codex right, where the previous version allowed maybe 30% to be used. That's an improvement by anyones standards. I disagree about 80%. If you're being as strict with this codex as you are with the old one, then you're looking at 50%, tops. It is an improvement, but nowhere near as good as it should have been - when the cost was so high (both in terms of money and also in terms of the fluff and characters they sacrificed).

One thing I do find amusing though, is that you claim I'm blinded by nostalgia. I'm not, trust me. I know a lot of people praised the old book for excellent balance... I didn't. Even before 6th, there were a lot of dubiously-costed units and items. And, especially with the limited weapon selection, I think it was doomed to age poorly.

I wonder how well this one will age.

I understand that the new codex did not fix many of the problems of the last codex had with Wyches and Hellions, then again i don't think i could think of a way how they could of due to them both being lightly armoured assault troops, maybe allow Hellions to Jink?

And i agree we have lost a biit of flavor, I'll be the first to say i miss my beloved Shattershard and the new codex is sorely lacking in viable 'extras' , but the basis of many units are better.

You could take a Haemonculi as a HQ, but often times Dark Eldar were relegated to allies, which only allowed one HQ slot, which fell to the Baron more often then not. Were the Venoms not troops? I forget sometimes, the Kabalites inside always seemed like nothing more then a tax on the Venoms to me. Reavers are better now, the old Reavers added anti- infantry to an army chock-a-block full of it, the new ones provide and fast cheap melee threat. I can say from use, i prefer the new ones.

On a related note, they are also one of our best answers to Wave Serpents when used in conjunction with Scourges. Reavers have a 3+ jink save and soon get a 5+ FNP, making them able to survive a volley from a Wave Serpent just fine,= unless they shoot their shields. On the other hand, IF they shoot their shields at Reavers, then Haywire Blasters have a field day on the Wave Serpents, at least forcing them to jink. Considering both are cheap options, and when the Reavers make contact, the 2D6 Str 6 hits will shred the Serpents, they make a good team. I have two units of 5 Haywire Scourges and 2 units of 6 Reavers, they have done the job admirably for me. The Dark Artisan group also helps with board control, since Wave Serpents can't touch our Pain Engines.

On a final note, do give Mandrakes a try. It's such fun to finally use such creepy models for good use. They are cheap, the cheapest unit in our book bar the Court (another abysmal unit made worth-a-dam) and work great at keeping you in the game while you rest of your force is in reserve. 2+ cover saves FTW!

Alex

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
I understand that the new codex did not fix many of the problems of the last codex had with Wyches and Hellions, then again i don't think i could think of a way how they could of due to them both being lightly armoured assault troops, maybe allow Hellions to Jink?

In terms of fixing wyches:
- Give them WS5
- Let them use their 4++ against overwatch
- Maybe a small point-drop?

I'm still not sure it would make them worth it, but WS5 would at least hint at their supposed combat expertise and the 4++ against overwatch would help their survivability a little.

With regard to Hellions, I'd say give them back the extra attack from Hellglaive and give them Stealth or Shrouded or something. Something to stop them dying in droves to anything that looks at them funny.

Although, possibly the problem in both cases is their offence - even at I6, S3 or S4 attacks just aren't very impressive (especially in an edition when enemy armies can be comprised entirely of vehicles or MCs). And, whilst Hellions do bring decent shooting, Beastmasters bring the same shooting for 3pts less per model.

Anyone got any idea regarding hellions and wyches?

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

And i agree we have lost a biit of flavor, I'll be the first to say i miss my beloved Shattershard and the new codex is sorely lacking in viable 'extras' , but the basis of many units are better.

I agree, but it's still depressing to see so many false options and other questionable stuff. e.g. Why can't a Haemonculus or Acothyst take a Ossefactor? Is it because its miles better than the Hexrifle or Liquifier gun? If so, why not un-nerf the liquifier gun to make the choice more reasonable?

Also, Urien losing Meld the Flesh was something I found really sad - it was the basis of most of his fluff and yet he doesn't even get IWND (4+) or something.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

You could take a Haemonculi as a HQ, but often times Dark Eldar were relegated to allies, which only allowed one HQ slot, which fell to the Baron more often then not.

Ah, I see. I was thinking pure DE.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Were the Venoms not troops? I forget sometimes, the Kabalites inside always seemed like nothing more then a tax on the Venoms to me.

I think some people used to use 30pt Wrack squads just to get slightly cheaper venoms.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Reavers are better now, the old Reavers added anti- infantry to an army chock-a-block full of it, the new ones provide and fast cheap melee threat. I can say from use, i prefer the new ones.

Well, up until 7th the old ones added good anti-vehicle too.

I need to try the new reavers again. The only game I used them in so far, they were annihilated by a Dreadknight turn 1.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

On a related note, they are also one of our best answers to Wave Serpents when used in conjunction with Scourges. Reavers have a 3+ jink save and soon get a 5+ FNP, making them able to survive a volley from a Wave Serpent just fine,= unless they shoot their shields. On the other hand, IF they shoot their shields at Reavers, then Haywire Blasters have a field day on the Wave Serpents, at least forcing them to jink. Considering both are cheap options, and when the Reavers make contact, the 2D6 Str 6 hits will shred the Serpents, they make a good team. I have two units of 5 Haywire Scourges and 2 units of 6 Reavers, they have done the job admirably for me. Alex

Interesting.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
The Dark Artisan group also helps with board control, since Wave Serpents can't touch our Pain Engines.

I need to try that.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

On a final note, do give Mandrakes a try. It's such fun to finally use such creepy models for good use. They are cheap, the cheapest unit in our book bar the Court (another abysmal unit made worth-a-dam) and work great at keeping you in the game while you rest of your force is in reserve. 2+ cover saves FTW!

Well, I'm a bit busy trying out coven units at the moment.

Once I've found some I like, I'll give Mandrakes a go and see how they do.

The army itself is not bad. I feel like they are very competitive unless your opponent bring 4 Wave Serpents to play.

I did not like the Dark Eldar Codex just as I did not like the GK Codex because they technically reduce the content of old ones. In other words, they are the inferior, and you still have to pay more money to buy them. This raises the question why GW not just stick with the old one.

 vipoid wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
I understand that the new codex did not fix many of the problems of the last codex had with Wyches and Hellions, then again i don't think i could think of a way how they could of due to them both being lightly armoured assault troops, maybe allow Hellions to Jink?

In terms of fixing wyches:
- Give them WS5
- Let them use their 4++ against overwatch
- Maybe a small point-drop?

I like this. WS 5, 4++ invul, but I think they could use poison, an extra attack, or furious charge. Something to make me think "I had better shoot those units up, or they will detonate a unit".
Hellions need a point drop or Jink.
Also, if more cover ignoring weapons are added, DE are in trouble. My noise marine army pretty much runs over them presently.

 vipoid wrote:

I'm still not sure it would make them worth it, but WS5 would at least hint at their supposed combat expertise and the 4++ against overwatch would help their survivability a little.

With regard to Hellions, I'd say give them back the extra attack from Hellglaive and give them Stealth or Shrouded or something. Something to stop them dying in droves to anything that looks at them funny.

Although, possibly the problem in both cases is their offence - even at I6, S3 or S4 attacks just aren't very impressive (especially in an edition when enemy armies can be comprised entirely of vehicles or MCs). And, whilst Hellions do bring decent shooting, Beastmasters bring the same shooting for 3pts less per model.

Anyone got any idea regarding hellions and wyches?

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

And i agree we have lost a biit of flavor, I'll be the first to say i miss my beloved Shattershard and the new codex is sorely lacking in viable 'extras' , but the basis of many units are better.

I agree, but it's still depressing to see so many false options and other questionable stuff. e.g. Why can't a Haemonculus or Acothyst take a Ossefactor? Is it because its miles better than the Hexrifle or Liquifier gun? If so, why not un-nerf the liquifier gun to make the choice more reasonable?

Also, Urien losing Meld the Flesh was something I found really sad - it was the basis of most of his fluff and yet he doesn't even get IWND (4+) or something.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

You could take a Haemonculi as a HQ, but often times Dark Eldar were relegated to allies, which only allowed one HQ slot, which fell to the Baron more often then not.

Ah, I see. I was thinking pure DE.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Were the Venoms not troops? I forget sometimes, the Kabalites inside always seemed like nothing more then a tax on the Venoms to me.

I think some people used to use 30pt Wrack squads just to get slightly cheaper venoms.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Reavers are better now, the old Reavers added anti- infantry to an army chock-a-block full of it, the new ones provide and fast cheap melee threat. I can say from use, i prefer the new ones.

Well, up until 7th the old ones added good anti-vehicle too.

I need to try the new reavers again. The only game I used them in so far, they were annihilated by a Dreadknight turn 1.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

On a related note, they are also one of our best answers to Wave Serpents when used in conjunction with Scourges. Reavers have a 3+ jink save and soon get a 5+ FNP, making them able to survive a volley from a Wave Serpent just fine,= unless they shoot their shields. On the other hand, IF they shoot their shields at Reavers, then Haywire Blasters have a field day on the Wave Serpents, at least forcing them to jink. Considering both are cheap options, and when the Reavers make contact, the 2D6 Str 6 hits will shred the Serpents, they make a good team. I have two units of 5 Haywire Scourges and 2 units of 6 Reavers, they have done the job admirably for me. Alex

Interesting.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
The Dark Artisan group also helps with board control, since Wave Serpents can't touch our Pain Engines.

I need to try that.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

On a final note, do give Mandrakes a try. It's such fun to finally use such creepy models for good use. They are cheap, the cheapest unit in our book bar the Court (another abysmal unit made worth-a-dam) and work great at keeping you in the game while you rest of your force is in reserve. 2+ cover saves FTW!

Well, I'm a bit busy trying out coven units at the moment.

Once I've found some I like, I'll give Mandrakes a go and see how they do.

I wanted to say thank you for this post.
We had a disagreement over the usage of some units in the De codex (and again, I've never played De, one of the few armies where this is the case, so my experience is limited), and you posted calm, reasonable points and suggestions on how units can be used effectively in combat. I'm going to suggest some of these to my local De players. I do not know if they own any scrouges but conversions should help.

Akiasura wrote:

I like this. WS 5, 4++ invul, but I think they could use poison, an extra attack, or furious charge. Something to make me think "I had better shoot those units up, or they will detonate a unit".

One of the problems I have is that Warriors seem able to inflict equal or greater damage, but from 12" away and without risking overwatch, return attacks or even leaving their transport.

So, yeah, something to give them more bite would be nice.

Akiasura wrote:

Also, if more cover ignoring weapons are added, DE are in trouble. My noise marine army pretty much runs over them presently.

I think what I find irritating is that DE have no ignores-cover weapons. And, we're even incredibly low on template weapons.

I wouldn't mind so much about enemies being able to negate my cover if I had ways to negate theirs (which also seems fitting for a glass-cannon army).

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Came in first at a local tournament today. Played tau at the end for first place. Venoms and lances blasted the two units of broadsides before they could shoot.

Grotesques killed off riptides.

I ran the grotesquerie formation. It was excellent. Our new army book is fantastic!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For the record, it was doubles. My partner and I were double Dark Eldar.

Round 1 we beat imperial knights lancer formation and grey knights with triple dreadknights.

Round 2 we best necron wraith wing with dark angels.

Round 2 we beat Tau and Orks.

its bad because (IMO)

You need the Codex and the supplement to get the full Codex
Wyches get mightly screwed despite them being one of the cornerstones of Dark Eldar society and warfare
Screw choice - you must play with this style of Dark Eldar army or be rubbish
no Lord of War
Gutted the SC selection
Dark Eldar flyers can;t Vector Dance because?

Downside to DE Codex IMO is:

Archon limited to power sword out of all the power weapons. Pretty fething useless.
Shard carbines now only available to Scourge- why? They were excellent on Kabalite Trueborns!

Also, removal of venom blades from most of the codex really annoys me.

Oh, but thanks for leaving them on Scourges. Because, if there was anything in the book that I really wanted a venom blade on, it would be scourges.

I know very little about the codex as a whole, but I got beaten by it 9/4 on Saturday thanks to incubi.