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Hey guys,

I have put together this list with what models I have available for my first 1000pt game. Feel free to let me know where I can improve (These are all my models - 3 Chaos Marines who I couldnt fit in). I can proxy if you think that would help What do you guys thins I'm missing or have in there that I dont want? Anyway, here it is.

HQ

Chaos Sorcerer (Warlord)
(ML3) (Terminator Armour, Force Stave, Combi-Bolter) (Mark of Tzeentch)
Total 150pts

Chaos Lord
(Aura of Dark Glory) (Plasma Pistol), (Power Weapon) (Mark of Khorne)
Total 120pts

Elites

6x Chosen
(1x Powermaul, boltgun, bolt pistol) (1x Lightening Claws) (1x Poweraxe, boltgun, bolt pistol) (1x Powerfist, boltgun, bolt pistol) (2x CC wep, boltgun, bolt pistol) (6x Mark of Khorne)
Total 205pts

5x Chaos Terminators
(1x lightening claws), (1x Heavy Flamer, power axe), (2x Chainfist, Combi-bolter), (1x powermaul, Combi-Bolter)
Total 198pts

Helbrute
(Multimelta, Powerfist)
Total 100pts

Troops

10x Cultists
(1x Flamer), (9xCC wep, Autopistol)
Total 55pts

10x Cultists
(1x Heavy Stubber) (1x Shotgun, CC Wep) (8x Autogun)
Total 65pts

7x Chaos Marines
(1x flamer), (5x Bolter, Bolt Pistol), (1x CC Wep, Bolter, Bolt Pistol)
Total 106pts

TOTAL 999

Too many points in Hq and elites. If you wanted to skimp on troops then skimp on troops and spend the points on better fast attack and heavy slots.

I predict the Chosen are from Dark Vengeance based on their load out.

Look into spamming Imperial Armor 13 super units like the sicaran and typhoon.

There are so many upgrades in this list that seem very random to me. I do not understand what synergy or theme you are going for, and would need some explanation if I could even begin to help

 changerofways wrote:
There are so many upgrades in this list that seem very random to me. I do not understand what synergy or theme you are going for, and would need some explanation if I could even begin to help

Agreed - Random upgrades are unwanted in some places, however, a lot of the models are from the DV set so I had no choice in their loadout and the termies were bought already assembled with the weapons specified in the list.

The other option was to not play WYSIWYG, however, I thought I would like to if possible just for my own enjoyment of the game/models etc.

The way I was thinking of running it is the Cultists acting as a meat sheild to get my Chosen into CC and Marines into position then deep strike the termies as either CC anti inventory or anti-vehicle depending on the opponents list, hence they are a bit of both. Sorcerer will run with the termies and the lord can do his own thing.

You can pick it apart, you won't hurt my feelings As I said I am new so don't really know what I'm looking for!

LordMillsy wrote:

 changerofways wrote:
There are so many upgrades in this list that seem very random to me. I do not understand what synergy or theme you are going for, and would need some explanation if I could even begin to help

Agreed - Random upgrades are unwanted in some places, however, a lot of the models are from the DV set so I had no choice in their loadout and the termies were bought already assembled with the weapons specified in the list.

The other option was to not play WYSIWYG, however, I thought I would like to if possible just for my own enjoyment of the game/models etc.

The way I was thinking of running it is the Cultists acting as a meat sheild to get my Chosen into CC and Marines into position then deep strike the termies as either CC anti inventory or anti-vehicle depending on the opponents list, hence they are a bit of both. Sorcerer will run with the termies and the lord can do his own thing.

You can pick it apart, you won't hurt my feelings As I said I am new so don't really know what I'm looking for!

Ok! That's perfect. Well, you're going to have to spend some cash, because right now you have some of the worst units in the game. One of the Codex: CSM's biggest problems is overloading units with special upgrades. Warp Talons, Defilers, and Chosen are all examples of units you should avoid because they're just too damn expensive for what is, at the end of the day, just a space marine, or, in the defilers case, just a battle cannon.

Let me preface this with saying everything I am about to say is advice to make your army stronger, not more fun. If you really like a model, or have a theme in mind that is contradicted by any of my advice, I encourage you to throw what I say out the window and forget it. What is most important is that you are having fun and playing an army that is yours.

Cultists are amazing, as they are super cheap. With enough you can kill even terminators! They make deep striking harder for your opponent, and help you secure objectives. They are also a great discount bodyguard for HQ choices!
Helbrutes are pretty piss poor only because you don't really get to control them. Due to their crazed ability, they kind of just go berzerk. I would not take helbrutes without either the Mayhem formation, which allows them to deep strike into a range where loss of control doesn't matter, or the murder pack formation, which allows them to choose which crazed result they get.
The two roles of HQs in Codex: CSM are to unlock elite choices as troops, and to be part of close combat death stars, using relics like the Black Mace, and Axe of Blind Fury.

Moving on to your actual list, its not a great list because you have no armor saturation, so your one vehicle (the helbrute) will undoubtedly be destroyed, and if it is not, it will at least go berzerk and you will lose control of it, so your opponent can ignore it for a turn or two whilst it runs up the board.
Sorcerers are good for one reason: Spell familiars. That you took a sorcerer without one frankly screams that you are new (Which is fine! That is why you are here, is to get advice ) Rerolling psychic tests at only 15 points is a steal!
Your chaos lord has zero purpose in this list. He's just an overpriced sergeant. I guess he makes your 7 man CSM squad fearless, but what are you potentially saving? A 5 point flamer?
A far superior way to move your units up the board is rhinos. They move very fast, are cheap, and rather than just give a 5+ cover save like your cultists would, it gives your opponent 3 AV 11 hull points to chew through, with a 5+ cover save on the rhino, if you play correctly. Remember to pop smoke.
Chaos Terminators are not anything like their loyalist counterparts, and if you try to use them in that way, they will disappoint you. They are cheap 2+ armor that you can throw into your opponents lines to disrupt things and then die, and that is what they do. Take them in squads of no larger than 3, and give them some cheap upgrades like combi-weapons.

So where to go from here? Start over. Try to find 2 or 3 units that you love. Why did you choose CSM and not, say, Necrons? What are the 2 or 3 units that you just love? Is there a Chaos God you like? Or will you go undivided? Tell us what those units are and we can start to go somewhere.

 changerofways wrote:

LordMillsy wrote:

 changerofways wrote:
There are so many upgrades in this list that seem very random to me. I do not understand what synergy or theme you are going for, and would need some explanation if I could even begin to help

Agreed - Random upgrades are unwanted in some places, however, a lot of the models are from the DV set so I had no choice in their loadout and the termies were bought already assembled with the weapons specified in the list.

The other option was to not play WYSIWYG, however, I thought I would like to if possible just for my own enjoyment of the game/models etc.

The way I was thinking of running it is the Cultists acting as a meat sheild to get my Chosen into CC and Marines into position then deep strike the termies as either CC anti inventory or anti-vehicle depending on the opponents list, hence they are a bit of both. Sorcerer will run with the termies and the lord can do his own thing.

You can pick it apart, you won't hurt my feelings As I said I am new so don't really know what I'm looking for!

Ok! That's perfect. Well, you're going to have to spend some cash, because right now you have some of the worst units in the game. One of the Codex: CSM's biggest problems is overloading units with special upgrades. Warp Talons, Defilers, and Chosen are all examples of units you should avoid because they're just too damn expensive for what is, at the end of the day, just a space marine, or, in the defilers case, just a battle cannon.

Let me preface this with saying everything I am about to say is advice to make your army stronger, not more fun. If you really like a model, or have a theme in mind that is contradicted by any of my advice, I encourage you to throw what I say out the window and forget it. What is most important is that you are having fun and playing an army that is yours.

Cultists are amazing, as they are super cheap. With enough you can kill even terminators! They make deep striking harder for your opponent, and help you secure objectives. They are also a great discount bodyguard for HQ choices!
Helbrutes are pretty piss poor only because you don't really get to control them. Due to their crazed ability, they kind of just go berzerk. I would not take helbrutes without either the Mayhem formation, which allows them to deep strike into a range where loss of control doesn't matter, or the murder pack formation, which allows them to choose which crazed result they get.
The two roles of HQs in Codex: CSM are to unlock elite choices as troops, and to be part of close combat death stars, using relics like the Black Mace, and Axe of Blind Fury.

Moving on to your actual list, its not a great list because you have no armor saturation, so your one vehicle (the helbrute) will undoubtedly be destroyed, and if it is not, it will at least go berzerk and you will lose control of it, so your opponent can ignore it for a turn or two whilst it runs up the board.
Sorcerers are good for one reason: Spell familiars. That you took a sorcerer without one frankly screams that you are new (Which is fine! That is why you are here, is to get advice ) Rerolling psychic tests at only 15 points is a steal!
Your chaos lord has zero purpose in this list. He's just an overpriced sergeant. I guess he makes your 7 man CSM squad fearless, but what are you potentially saving? A 5 point flamer?
A far superior way to move your units up the board is rhinos. They move very fast, are cheap, and rather than just give a 5+ cover save like your cultists would, it gives your opponent 3 AV 11 hull points to chew through, with a 5+ cover save on the rhino, if you play correctly. Remember to pop smoke.
Chaos Terminators are not anything like their loyalist counterparts, and if you try to use them in that way, they will disappoint you. They are cheap 2+ armor that you can throw into your opponents lines to disrupt things and then die, and that is what they do. Take them in squads of no larger than 3, and give them some cheap upgrades like combi-weapons.

So where to go from here? Start over. Try to find 2 or 3 units that you love. Why did you choose CSM and not, say, Necrons? What are the 2 or 3 units that you just love? Is there a Chaos God you like? Or will you go undivided? Tell us what those units are and we can start to go somewhere.

Wow - thanks for your help

As far as units that I like, what drew me to Chaos was mainly the look of the models! I'm a big fan of the heldrake (which I hear is a really good unit also), Daemon prince and Forgefiend. I also like the idea of having a fast, in your face sort of army containing bikers, fast attack choices (such as the raptors), deep striking units etc. Basically, I would like to run up the board screaming and waving weapons in the air and giving my opponent little time to position himself to counter my movements although I'm sure this is easier said than done.

I understand that many of the units I have at the minute are not the best in the codex but due to a limited budget I found that the DV set would give me a kick starter to at least get to know the rules and get some friendly games in. Then I just added the termies and marines for cheap on E-Bay. In total I've probably spent about £60 on a 1000pt army which I imagine is much cheaper than I could have gotten better units. Over time I would like to start to shape my army into what I have described above however so any help would be great

Also, as for a Chaos God I like the idea of Khorne

Ok, great, now we're getting somewhere!

Heldrakes- Yes, they are great. Give them a baleflamer, unless they are your only form of Anti-Air, then you might want to consider the Hades Autocannon. At 1000 points I wouldn't bother with one, but seriously consider buying 2 for your collection.

Daemon Princes- Right now most people who take daemon princes are giving them the DoN upgrade. Nurgle is great for them because of shrouded, which gives Daemon Princes a 2+ cover save AT ALL TIMES, both during the swooping and gliding flight modes. This makes them WAY MORE survivable than they used to be.

Forgefiends- Usually taken with 2X Hades Autocannons, and in pairs, for 16 STR 8 AP 4 shots. Take a Crimson Slaughter Sorcerer with the Balestar for Prescience, allowing you to re-roll to hit rolls. Ectoplasma is less popular for its short range and high cost.

Khorne- Berzerkers of Khorne are awesome, but they REQUIRE land raiders. If you give them rhinos or foot slog them, they are simply too expensive and too powerful for you opponent to ignore. Spend the points, buy em a good transport. A good Khorne list looks something like this:

Kharn the Betrayer (Warlord)
Chaos Lord- AoDG, MoK, Plasma Pistol, AoBF
9 Berzerkers- Various upgrades, Land Raider w/ Dirge Caster (Kharn here)
9 Berzerkers- Various upgrades, Land Raider w/ Dirge Caster (Chaos Lord here)
Various other units

Another competitive way to run the Chaos Lord is on a Juggernaut, escorted by a squad of Chaos Spawn or Chaos Bikers.

 changerofways wrote:
Ok, great, now we're getting somewhere!

Heldrakes- Yes, they are great. Give them a baleflamer, unless they are your only form of Anti-Air, then you might want to consider the Hades Autocannon. At 1000 points I wouldn't bother with one, but seriously consider buying 2 for your collection.

Daemon Princes- Right now most people who take daemon princes are giving them the DoN upgrade. Nurgle is great for them because of shrouded, which gives Daemon Princes a 2+ cover save AT ALL TIMES, both during the swooping and gliding flight modes. This makes them WAY MORE survivable than they used to be.

Forgefiends- Usually taken with 2X Hades Autocannons, and in pairs, for 16 STR 8 AP 4 shots. Take a Crimson Slaughter Sorcerer with the Balestar for Prescience, allowing you to re-roll to hit rolls. Ectoplasma is less popular for its short range and high cost.

Khorne- Berzerkers of Khorne are awesome, but they REQUIRE land raiders. If you give them rhinos or foot slog them, they are simply too expensive and too powerful for you opponent to ignore. Spend the points, buy em a good transport. A good Khorne list looks something like this:

Kharn the Betrayer (Warlord)
Chaos Lord- AoDG, MoK, Plasma Pistol, AoBF
9 Berzerkers- Various upgrades, Land Raider w/ Dirge Caster (Kharn here)
9 Berzerkers- Various upgrades, Land Raider w/ Dirge Caster (Chaos Lord here)
Various other units

Another competitive way to run the Chaos Lord is on a Juggernaut, escorted by a squad of Chaos Spawn or Chaos Bikers.

Kharn is one model that I really don't like the look of which is sad :( Are any of the models from DV actually any use bar the cultists?

Well the Helbrute is good, as I said, if you use him in a formation, but that requires more helbrutes.

The lord can also be used, but not as WYSIWYG because the sword is not an axe (AoBF)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Check out this video to see the juggernaut lord in action!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOFhI-CRu18

So you like drakes? They were notorious in 6th edition but after the Errata broke their necks, 3 drakes are not an absolute must anymore. With the introduction of Imperial Armor 13, you now have access to Fire Raptor Gunships, Hell blade jet fighters, Hell Talon bombers, hovering Plague Drones UAV squadrons.

I understand this is what you have so a few recommendations I would make is:

Run the cultists all together as 20. I would also drop the heavy stubbed as it isn't strong enough to weigh down the unit with a heavy weapon. I also like using the pistols as I can assuault. And while they are only a STR 3 TOU3 unit that's 40 attacks you are bound to cause a W or 2. Attach your lord to help with the Leadership. That will save you 23pts allowing Melta bombs somewhere such as the CSM to give them a punch on armour if need it since you don't have any melts or plasmas in there. Drop one chain fist termi out and put the 3 CSMs in. That gives up to 4 more bolter shots, and 2 more wounds. I take that as a slight advantage over the 2+ save. This should work without having to buy anything. The other recommendations are great once the wallet is able to provide.

Son of aY3ti wrote:
I understand this is what you have so a few recommendations I would make is:

Run the cultists all together as 20. I would also drop the heavy stubbed as it isn't strong enough to weigh down the unit with a heavy weapon. I also like using the pistols as I can assuault. And while they are only a STR 3 TOU3 unit that's 40 attacks you are bound to cause a W or 2. Attach your lord to help with the Leadership. That will save you 23pts allowing Melta bombs somewhere such as the CSM to give them a punch on armour if need it since you don't have any melts or plasmas in there. Drop one chain fist termi out and put the 3 CSMs in. That gives up to 4 more bolter shots, and 2 more wounds. I take that as a slight advantage over the 2+ save. This should work without having to buy anything. The other recommendations are great once the wallet is able to provide.

I have edited my list as you have said. Dropped a couple of things to get spell familiar, meltabombs on CSM and Chosen and added the 3CSM. Do you think this is a better list (in terms of what I have available)?

HQ

Chaos Sorcerer
(ML3) (Terminator Armour, Force Stave, Combi-Bolter) (Spell familiar) (Mark of Tzeentch)
Total 165pts

Chaos Lord
(Aura of Dark Glory) (Plasma Pistol), (Power Weapon) (Mark of Khorne)
Total 120pts

Elites

6x Chosen
(1x Powermaul, boltgun, bolt pistol, meltabombs) (1x Lightening Claws, boltgun, bolt pistol) (1x Poweraxe, boltgun, bolt pistol) (1x Powerfist, boltgun, bolt pistol) (2x CC wep, boltgun, bolt pistol) (6x Mark of Khorne)
Total 210pts

4x Chaos Terminators
(1x lightening claws), (1x Heavy Flamer, power axe), (1x Chainfist, combi-bolter), (1x powermaul, Combi-Bolter)
Total 155pts

Helbrute
(Multimelta, Powerfist)
Total 100pts

Troops

20x Cultists
(1x Shotgun, CC wep) (1x Flamer), (18xCC wep, Autopistol)
Total 97pts

10x Chaos Marines
(1x flamer), (8x Bolter, Bolt Pistol), (1x CC Wep, Bolter, Bolt Pistol, meltabombs)
Total 150pts

TOTAL 997

Either your original list, or your latest, is perfectly fine for learning how to play CSM; I understand what it's like to have a limited selection. Just play!

Also: Belakor, while a bit tricky to play 'right', is an effective force multiplier. You can use any Daemon Prince model (though the official model is smaller and therefore easier to hide), and the dataslate is cheap. At 350 points, you'll have little difficulty moving straight to 1500.

Good luck!