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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30602252

Five people were injured, but are okay.

Right now, in Europe, a lot of people are on the streets / on the fence fearing the "islamization" of the western world and this incident strangely fits into these times / ideas. It's a very debated topic over here, especially with the number of refugees ever rising and most likely continuing to rise, some countries wanting to shut down borders or just moving immigrants across to the next country.

Lots of things I want to say. Stuff about competent police keeping folks safe, the tolerance of the oh so superior european, etc...

But that's all crap. Loonies everywhere. I hope they catch those responsible for this, and punish them to the full extent of the law.

We aren't superior, we are different. We do better in some fields and worse in others when compared to the US.

And yeah, like sig said, this ties in very well with the whole fear of islamization over here.

 Soladrin wrote:
We aren't superior, we are different. We do better in some fields and worse in others when compared to the US.

And yeah, like sig said, this ties in very well with the whole fear of islamization over here.

Which is why I said it was crap. It's pretty often we Americans receive a lot of flak over dumb crap, especially on here, and I'll admit my first thought was rubbing it back... but it's wrong to do so.

 djones520 wrote:

 Soladrin wrote:
We aren't superior, we are different. We do better in some fields and worse in others when compared to the US.

And yeah, like sig said, this ties in very well with the whole fear of islamization over here.

Which is why I said it was crap. It's pretty often we Americans receive a lot of flak over dumb crap, especially on here, and I'll admit my first thought was rubbing it back... but it's wrong to do so.

To be fair, America just gets a lot more screentime in the media. I could start posting the daily moronic things that happen in my tiny country and ruin your view of it as well.

djones520: I've been guilty of that myself in the past, but it is irritating to see people play the smug superior card over the US posters here. So I commend your post- I respect it!

Hope they catch the arsonist. Scandinavia has a bit of a history of church burning. Wonder if it's the same bunch?

 djones520 wrote:

 Soladrin wrote:
We aren't superior, we are different. We do better in some fields and worse in others when compared to the US.

And yeah, like sig said, this ties in very well with the whole fear of islamization over here.

Which is why I said it was crap. It's pretty often we Americans receive a lot of flak over dumb crap, especially on here, and I'll admit my first thought was rubbing it back... but it's wrong to do so.

Well, you sort of did it by saying you weren't going to do it... Kind of passive-aggressive.

Nordic country, burning of a religious edifice, possible racism… I blame trve black metal . The Trve Kvlt 3v1l Bl4ck Methvl 2: return of the vengeance of the son of the Inner Black Circle.
At least back in the days, they waited for the church to be empty before burning it. Hope the injured will heal fine.

On Xmas day at that.

Most probably some neo-nazi types or some other racists who have bought in to the stupid Breivik-style bullgak about islamisation. Hope the police catch the perpatrators soon.


We have had a worrying development here the last couple of years with the right wing populists having a bit of a break through in the last two elections, getting 12% in the last. The last time we had a surge of right wing populism (in the 90's) we also got more racist attacks and neo-nazi activity. If we are to believe the Swedish Security Service and EXPO (anti-racist magazine founded by the guy who wrote The Girl With The Dragon Tatoo, similar to Searchlight in the UK) we are seeing a somewhat similar development this time.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
The attack has been indentified by the police as a hate crime. I just also read that the Swedish Security Service probably will be involved in the investigation, which might mean that the Security Service might consider this as an act of terrorism or a politically motivated crime.

 jorny wrote:
Most probably some neo-nazi types or some other racists who have bought in to the stupid Breivik-style bullgak about islamisation. Hope the police catch the perpatrators soon.


We have had a worrying development here the last couple of years with the right wing populists having a bit of a break through in the last two elections, getting 12% in the last. The last time we had a surge of right wing populism (in the 90's) we also got more racist attacks and neo-nazi activity. If we are to believe the Swedish Security Service and EXPO (anti-racist magazine founded by the guy who wrote The Girl With The Dragon Tatoo, similar to Searchlight in the UK) we are seeing a somewhat similar development this time.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
The attack has been indentified by the police as a hate crime. I just also read that the Swedish Security Service probably will be involved in the investigation, which might mean that the Security Service might consider this as an act of terrorism or a politically motivated crime.

I find the comparison betwen neo-nazis and the swedish democrats a litlte strange, considerign that their main goal is to reduce the immigration by 50%, which considering the massive immigration rates that sweden has now is only sensible. This is because at the current rates sweden simply cannot integrate all these people, which causes damage both to the immigrants and to sweden. This can be seen for example in the fact, that sweden is facing a severe lack of appartements at the moment.

However, it of course is very horrible that a building was burned, and I also hope that the people that this will be jailed, as there seems to be no justification for this.

This is what happens when you call the public racist for not accepting that immigration in high numbers is OK just because the government said it was ok. It drives people to violence as there is no means of dialogue. By all means keep calling them Nazis if you want this to continue.
Funnily enough Sweden has seen its immigration levels increase rapidly and also its incidents of rape.
Couldn't possibly be connected.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2014/12/25/historic-7ft-crucifix-cut-down-after-it-offends-new-muslim-neighbour/

A sixty-year-old crucifix in a small Austrian town has met an inglorious end after being cut down by a recent addition to the neighbourhood who declared it an “eyesore” and attacked it with an angle-grinder.

The cross, which was erected in the Grossenzersdorf, a small suburb of Vienna, after the Second World War, and has been a popular way point for church processions and pilgrimages since ,stood on the grass verge outside one of the properties on Grossenzersdorf’s Augasse. Shortly after the new resident, a man described by local media as ‘Egyptian’ moved in, he started complaining to neighbours and even his local government about the crucifix.

Keen to appease the new arrival, local mayor Hubert Tomsic even discussed moving the cross with him: “I had a conversation with the man about repositioning the cross at a different location in the alley – at his expense”.

The offer was clearly not enough, however. TheLocal.at reports the man was heard saying to his neighbours soon after moving in: “I don’t want that. It has to go!”. The man soon began renovations at his new property and as part of that acquired an angle-grinder that he used to cut the historic cross down.

Besides the damage to the base, the cross also suffered damage to the knees of Christ when it fell.

The mayor has called the act of vandalism “radical”, “offensive”, and “inflammatory”. The local branch of the ruling Christian Conservative party has reported the act to police and made an official complaint.

The act of vandalism has also drawn criticisms from fellow Muslims. Local faith leaders said the act had caused “consternation”. They said under the teachings of Islam Muslims should respect the symbols of other religions.

 Medium of Death wrote:
This is what happens when you call the public racist for not accepting that immigration in high numbers is OK just because the government said it was ok. It drives people to violence as there is no means of dialogue. By all means keep calling them Nazis if you want this to continue.
Funnily enough Sweden has seen its immigration levels increase rapidly and also its incidents of rape.
Couldn't possibly be connected.

I have never said that SD are nazis only that racists and neo-nazis feel encouraged in a climate of more open anti immigrant sentiment. The fact is that %87 if Swedes have voted for parties that aren't against immigration and immigrants, so I don't know what you mean with "the public". And your reasoning that this has happened for any other reason that a racist scumbag who hates muslims decided to commit an act of terror is frankly insulting. Oh, and I call bullgak on your claim that there are more incidents of rape, there are however according to for instance BRÅ more people who report that they have been raped. I haven't seen any serious sources saying that we have more incidents of rape per capita now than we had let say 50 years ago.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sienisoturi wrote:

 jorny wrote:
Most probably some neo-nazi types or some other racists who have bought in to the stupid Breivik-style bullgak about islamisation. Hope the police catch the perpatrators soon.


We have had a worrying development here the last couple of years with the right wing populists having a bit of a break through in the last two elections, getting 12% in the last. The last time we had a surge of right wing populism (in the 90's) we also got more racist attacks and neo-nazi activity. If we are to believe the Swedish Security Service and EXPO (anti-racist magazine founded by the guy who wrote The Girl With The Dragon Tatoo, similar to Searchlight in the UK) we are seeing a somewhat similar development this time.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
The attack has been indentified by the police as a hate crime. I just also read that the Swedish Security Service probably will be involved in the investigation, which might mean that the Security Service might consider this as an act of terrorism or a politically motivated crime.

I find the comparison betwen neo-nazis and the swedish democrats a litlte strange, considerign that their main goal is to reduce the immigration by 50%, which considering the massive immigration rates that sweden has now is only sensible. This is because at the current rates sweden simply cannot integrate all these people, which causes damage both to the immigrants and to sweden. This can be seen for example in the fact, that sweden is facing a severe lack of appartements at the moment.

However, it of course is very horrible that a building was burned, and I also hope that the people that this will be jailed, as there seems to be no justification for this.

The Swedish housing shortage is a huge issue that has almost nothing to do with immigration and a lot more to do with things like too little competition in the building sector, regulations around interest rates, a slow planning process with too many appeals and that the law about public housing companies was changed so that they have to operate like for profit companies.

Sweden doesn't have a massive immigration rate. We had about 116 000 people moving to Sweden in 2013. 50 000 (many of those former immigrants to Sweden) moved from Sweden. 19 000 of those moving to Sweden had work permits meaning that they were researchers to the universities and skilled labor and specialists hired by companies. 8000 were students. 20 000 were EU citizens with the largest group probably coming from the nordic countries. That leaves around 19 000 refugees and such to a country of 9 million, meaning that if spread out evenly, each of the 290 municipalities would get 65 immigrants each.

 jorny wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
This is what happens when you call the public racist for not accepting that immigration in high numbers is OK just because the government said it was ok. It drives people to violence as there is no means of dialogue. By all means keep calling them Nazis if you want this to continue.
Funnily enough Sweden has seen its immigration levels increase rapidly and also its incidents of rape.
Couldn't possibly be connected.

I have never said that SD are nazis only that racists and neo-nazis feel encouraged in a climate of more open anti immigrant sentiment. The fact is that %87 if Swedes have voted for parties that aren't against immigration and immigrants, so I don't know what you mean with "the public". And your reasoning that this has happened for any other reason that a racist scumbag who hates muslims decided to commit an act of terror is frankly insulting. Oh, and I call bullgak on your claim that there are more incidents of rape, there are however according to for instance BRÅ more people who report that they have been raped. I haven't seen any serious sources saying that we have more incidents of rape per capita now than we had let say 50 years ago.

The percentage of votes parties with anti-immigration points get is not really a good measurement for anti-immigrant sentiments among the general population though. Choice of political parties is determined by much more than immigration points. It is perfectly possible that a person with strong anti-immigration sentiments votes for a pro-immigration socialist party because he agrees with their economical or some other points. So when an anti-immigration party gets 12% of votes, the actual percentage of anti-immigration people is likely to be much, much higher than that.

 jorny wrote:
Most probably some neo-nazi types or some other racists who have bought in to the stupid Breivik-style bullgak about islamisation. Hope the police catch the perpatrators soon.

We have had a worrying development here the last couple of years with the right wing populists having a bit of a break through in the last two elections, getting 12% in the last. The last time we had a surge of right wing populism (in the 90's) we also got more racist attacks and neo-nazi activity. If we are to believe the Swedish Security Service and EXPO (anti-racist magazine founded by the guy who wrote The Girl With The Dragon Tatoo, similar to Searchlight in the UK) we are seeing a somewhat similar development this time.

The main point about people not feeling at home in their own country is this. If people don't feel at home in their own country where can they go? Nowhere.

When immigration begins to put the indigenous population into the minority, or projects to do so down the line, then it is excessive. Nobody denies that the world has had immigration before, but never has it been facilitated so easily and at such speed.

There's a reason different cultures developed over distance, where we are too close we either homogenise or find points of contention and clash.

How dare people look different in public.

 Medium of Death wrote:
The main point about people not feeling at home in their own country is this. If people don't feel at home in their own country where can they go? Nowhere.

When immigration begins to put the indigenous population into the minority, or projects to do so down the line, then it is excessive. Nobody denies that the world has had immigration before, but never has it been facilitated so easily and at such speed.

There's a reason different cultures developed over distance, where we are too close we either homogenise or find points of contention and clash.

That's the thing about immigration. When you move to another country and start a life there, it becomes a bit of yours too. You realize that a lot of immigrants can't just go back to their own country, right? And the idea that someone who doesn't feel at home in their own country can't go anywhere else is just wrong. Where do you think all the immigrants came from? A lot of them were people who didn't feel at home in their own countries.

Yes Hordini, the quality of life is better here but there has to be a limit otherwise the quality of life will not be better for everyone.

Is that selfish? Inherently so.

What moral responsibility does Europe have to take in these immigrants? None. A Nation needs to look after its own people and preserve its own culture first.

Immigrants serve an economic purpose. To fill gaps in the workforce. The West is not an international charity. Why expect us to look after the world when Colonialism was thoroughly rejected.

Developing countries are held down by their corrupt or inept governments. They could improve their peoples living conditions.

 Spinner wrote:
How dare people look different in public.

You do know culture and race are entirely different concepts?

I was referring to the bits about people 'standing out' on the street, actually, but yes. I am aware.

Is it better if I phrase it as "how dare people act different in public' instead?

 Medium of Death wrote:
Yes Hordini, the quality of life is better here but there has to be a limit otherwise the quality of life will not be better for everyone.

Is that selfish? Inherently so.

What moral responsibility does Europe have to take in these immigrants? None. A Nation needs to look after its own people and preserve its own culture first.

Immigrants serve an economic purpose. To fill gaps in the workforce. The West is not an international charity. Why expect us to look after the world when Colonialism was thoroughly rejected.

Developing countries are held down by their corrupt or inept governments. They could improve their peoples living conditions.

That's why you have immigration laws and visas. And I have no problem with a nation looking after its own people. That said, (and I don't mean this to sound too accusatory and it isn't directed at you specifically) but when I start to hear things about a nation "preserving its own culture," it starts to sound like xenophobia. How is an immigrant a threat to your culture? Are they going to take it away from you? Will their presence impede you from participating in your own culture?

How do you suggest a culture be "preserved" anyway? Culture isn't some solidified construct, it is fluid and constantly changing. Culture is not going to wait on any of us to catch up either, and that's not going to change no matter what immigration policy a country decides on.

While I of course do never condone the burning of buildings and attacking of ones fellow man, I do not want to live in an Islamic society (since the whole law of stoning people for practising homosexuality they have...I like not dying and I like my western insanity athiest-existance thank you very much).
And to answer a question asked in this thread, it could very much impede my lifestyle.
I am weary of any religion that wants to do those things, Christianity before, Islam now...

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
While I of course do never condone the burning of buildings and attacking of ones fellow man, I do not want to live in an Islamic society (since the whole law of stoning people for practising homosexuality they have...I like not dying and I like my western insanity athiest-existance thank you very much).
And to answer a question asked in this thread, it could very much impede my lifestyle.
I am weary of any religion that wants to do those things, Christianity before, Islam now...

Luckily for you, all you have to do to prevent that is...do nothing. Just don't move to an Islamic country.

 Hordini wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
While I of course do never condone the burning of buildings and attacking of ones fellow man, I do not want to live in an Islamic society (since the whole law of stoning people for practising homosexuality they have...I like not dying and I like my western insanity athiest-existance thank you very much).
And to answer a question asked in this thread, it could very much impede my lifestyle.
I am weary of any religion that wants to do those things, Christianity before, Islam now...

Luckily for you, all you have to do to prevent that is...do nothing. Just don't move to an Islamic country.

And resist magical powers of transportation but...well I've got Magic Resistance 3 so I feel pretty safe!

A good book to read is : INfidels : by andrew wheatcroft, which expands on the areas on conflict between islam and christianity throughout history and end up at bascally : "both are stigmatised, both are biased" it is a good read. I recommend it to any thinking on islam atm.kinda kills the whole ""Islam by the sword theory"

What do you mean by the "Islam by the sword theory"?

A set of propaganda about islam.that they rampaged across the world spreding their religion by the sword blade e.g. join or die.

"that they spread islam by the sword" when in fact after they conquered countries- after the initial massacre- which i think we can agree was universal.(there is some variation here)basically said "do what you want but -pay more tax" Islamic states quite often had more liberal stances to non islamic groups than christian countries to non christian groups.
case in point spain 11-16 century.

 Bullockist wrote:
A set of propaganda about islam.that they rampaged across the world spreding their religion by the sword blade e.g. join or die.

"that they spread islam by the sword" when in fact after they conquered islamics(there is some variation here)basically said "do what you want but -pay more tax" Islamic states quite often had more liberal stances to non islamic groups than christian countries to non christian groups.
case in point spain 11-16 century.

Oh, alright. I already had read a bit about medieval Islam so I knew that wasn't true in all regions anyway. That would explain why I'm unfamiliar with it.

 Medium of Death wrote:

What moral responsibility does Europe have to take in these immigrants? None.

So this is about Europe versus not-Europe?

 Medium of Death wrote:

A Nation needs to look after its own people and preserve its own culture first.

So, you're for Scottish Independence I take it? I don't mean that to be snarky, I just noticed that your location is listed as "Scotland".

 Medium of Death wrote:

You do know culture and race are entirely different concepts?

And a stereotypical Irishman is likely to different, in public, than a stereotypical Dutchman. Culture impacts the way people present themselves.

Seeing as Sweden is in Europe and the UK is in Europe I felt it easier to frame it that way. Seeing as the EU encourages free movement it also makes sense to frame it this way. Large swathes of Europe also share a fairly extensive history steeped in Christianity, there are pretty clear cultural similarities.

By all means feel free to bring in American examples.

I am not the sole representative that the EU and British migration policy has largely failed.

I'm sure Orlanth will be able to debate this much better than I can.

I'm not sure why this says UKIP as Douglas Murray isn't a member. This will give you the insight into the UK situation.

 Medium of Death wrote:
Seeing as Sweden is in Europe and the UK is in Europe I felt it easier to frame it that way. Seeing as the EU encourages free movement it also makes sense to frame it this way. Large swathes of Europe also share a fairly extensive history steeped in Christianity, there are pretty clear cultural similarities.

By all means feel free to bring in American examples.

I am not the sole representative that the EU and British migration policy has largely failed.

I'm sure Orlanth will be able to debate this much better than I can.

I'm not sure why this says UKIP as Douglas Murray isn't a member. This will give you the insight into the UK situation.

I had enough of idiot politicians in 1996.

Pauline Hansons one nation filled the role of the UK IP.
Any kind of success by these people is culturally embarrassing.

immigrants don't steal jobs, lazy brits do.