Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Matthew wrote:
Well, from my view that idiot Jimmie Åkesson is the only one worried about islamization.

I wouldn't call him an idiot, he's clearly a very shrewd and charismatic politician. It's just that his entire ideology is abhorrent.

On a related note, I love how this thread went from "Mosques attacked" to "Islam is incompatible with the West". We'll, there certainly seem to be a bunch of us Westerners who are also incompatible with the West.

Haha. Whether you like it or not the Westerners asking these questions are here to stay.

Enjoy your rising tide of religious fanatics and immigration based crime.

If you can't admit that a tiny portion of the population is committing the most crime then you are simply deluded.

So Westerners firebombing Mosques is somehow the fault of the Muslims? Be right back, getting my Dakka Bingo card.

But everyone here keeps ignoring the real problem! This is the second coming of the Black Metal Inner Circle! We need to put some cops to watch everyone who buys corpse paint, and build only fireproof worship places. Or alternatively, ban every religion except the worship of Satan and Cthulhu.

Just out of curiosity, do we know the particular sect of these mosques that were attacked? There is sectarian strife in quite a few Islamic countries, and it bleeding over into immigrant communities isn't unheard of.

I ask because the USA had a mosque vandalism on Christmas eve, the immediate assumption was anti-Islam folks, and it turned out to be a Muslim who perpetrated the act.


Different circumstances, but Shaima al-awadi comes to mind as well. That didn't really turn out the way people that were bashing the supposedly anti-islamic right wanted.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Matthew wrote:
Well, from my view that idiot Jimmie Åkesson is the only one worried about islamization.

I wouldn't call him an idiot, he's clearly a very shrewd and charismatic politician. It's just that his entire ideology is abhorrent.

On a related note, I love how this thread went from "Mosques attacked" to "Islam is incompatible with the West". We'll, there certainly seem to be a bunch of us Westerners who are also incompatible with the West.

Well, for what it’s worth, I’m glad you folks in Sweden are taking a resolute stance against these atrocious acts. I only wish my own kind had as much backbone as you guys.

 Redcruisair wrote:
I only wish my own kind had as much backbone as you guys.

I'm curious as to what you mean by this.

 Hordini wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:
I only wish my own kind had as much backbone as you guys.

I'm curious as to what you mean by this.

Probably in reference to the anti-islam/immigration marches that took place in Dresden (if I remember correctly)?

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Hordini wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:
I only wish my own kind had as much backbone as you guys.

I'm curious as to what you mean by this.

Probably in reference to the anti-islam/immigration marches that took place in Dresden (if I remember correctly)?

Heh, yeah that too. Though, I was actually referring to my other home, Denmark.

Some of our politicians wanted to erect a giant barrier spanning the entire Danish coast and the German-Danish border. This was meant to keep smugglers and other… unwanted human “drecks” from entering our country.

I wonder could these attacks be anyhow connected to the new political reforms made in sweden. For those who don't know what these reforms are, all the swedish parties united against the swedish democrats, and made a law which would make it possible to have minority governments. This is arguably undemocratic, but what the real purpose of this law is to keep the swedish deocrats out of the government at all costs. This means that it is practially impossible for the swedes to vote against the massive immigration that we discussed a few pages back. Also, this will most likely anger the right wing voters, as the right wing coalition gave their support to the law, which means that the left will be in control for four years with a minority government, which in turn means that the right wing voters had their votes discarded.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Matthew wrote:
Well, from my view that idiot Jimmie Åkesson is the only one worried about islamization.

I wouldn't call him an idiot, he's clearly a very shrewd and charismatic politician. It's just that his entire ideology is abhorrent.

On a related note, I love how this thread went from "Mosques attacked" to "Islam is incompatible with the West". We'll, there certainly seem to be a bunch of us Westerners who are also incompatible with the West.

May I ask how is his ideology abhorrent?

 Redcruisair wrote:
I only wish my own kind had as much backbone as you guys.

"As much backbone" as being the most open country to immigration in the EU?

Germany needs a system as used in the US. Their current immigration politics are already starting to affect the economy and EVERY analysis done on the impact of limitless immigration shows a bleak outcome for Germany. Too bad that Germany is filled with irrational Gutmenschen who, if any sort if immigration politic is brought up, immediately call "RACIST RAAAAAAAACISSSSSSST!".

Germany does benefit from immigration on the whole, but certain areas (mostly in NRW) have a pretty huge level of immigration at the moment. Germany took in the most immigrants in the EU last year, and is very generous in it's assessment of refugees and asylum seekers.

It should definitely be possible to have a debate around immigration in Germany without people being called racist, because the country is pretty far from that. (Though I do see a lot of prejudice against germans of Turkish descent).

That said, Germany has an aging population and without immigrants would be approaching a negative population growth. Demographically, that's bad news. And I've read a fair bit of evidence that due to the number of skilled and educated immigrants Germany attracts, immigration is a net benefit for Germany.

I mean, Ireland paid a crap ton of money to educate me (free third level education plus scholarships) and here I am in Germany paying tax and contributing to your economy, while Ireland struggles with mass emigration and reduced cash flow. My government essentially produces graduates for export, which is also a pretty crappy situation.

Edit to Add: I'd say the biggest worries with regard to mass immigration are cultural rather than economic. The various groups of immigrants integrate to differing levels. I know that many turkish immigrants stay in turkish enclaves and struggle to learn german or integrate into german culture. Many are in their third generation in germany and still identify as Turkish over German. That is both their fault (primarily) for failing to integrate and also a consequence (in my opinion) of increased discrimination against them because they are obviously "non-european". Italians, eastern Europeans and even myself seem to be happily accepted by most Germans, and it's not easy to spot that I'm not German on the street, unlike a Turkish German. In fact, most people I meet are extremely friendly and pleased to have an English speaker around to practice with. I have been doing VHS German courses so that I'm getting reasonably good with my German, and I think that should be a priority for immigrants coming in (many of my co-workers fail to do this and therefore never fully integrate).

Integration is key to getting the best out of your immigrants. I think Germany does a good job these days with that, but unfortunately previously it wasn't so well managed from what I can see (with the gastarbeiters being seen as very temporary and then becoming quite permanent, for example).

But I can see why an elderly german in say, inner Duisburg, might have problems when he sees that he is now surrounded by some fairly unfriendly looking, non-German speaking youths from a drastically different culture to the one he grew up in. Or why Germans get annoyed when antisemitism from immigrants from Palestine, Turkey and Arab nations is reported as "German antisemitism". Germans don't want anything to do with stuff like that, it seems to me, and it's a tricky thing to say anything about it. My german students are really scared of being called racist, it's the trump card that can be dropped on them any time. I always tell them not to worry about it so much, because it really borders on neurosis in some cases.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:
I only wish my own kind had as much backbone as you guys.

"As much backbone" as being the most open country to immigration in the EU?

Germany needs a system as used in the US. Their current immigration politics are already starting to affect the economy and EVERY analysis done on the impact of limitless immigration shows a bleak outcome for Germany. Too bad that Germany is filled with irrational Gutmenschen who, if any sort if immigration politic is brought up, immediately call "RACIST RAAAAAAAACISSSSSSST!".

No. I meant having the backbone as in being openly against fracking HATE CRIMES, man. Did you miss the part about Molotov cocktails being thrown at mosques with people in them?

Where was the condemnation and outcry when a band of neo-nazis went around systematically murdering foreigners in Germany? People with eastern nationality were hunted down and killed by gunmen and the German population at large didn’t give a single toss about it.

 Redcruisair wrote:


Where was the condemnation and outcry when a band of neo-nazis went around systematically murdering foreigners in Germany? People with eastern nationality were hunted down and killed by gunmen and the German population at large didn’t give a single toss about it.

Source?

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:


Where was the condemnation and outcry when a band of neo-nazis went around systematically murdering foreigners in Germany? People with eastern nationality were hunted down and killed by gunmen and the German population at large didn’t give a single toss about it.

Source?

http://www.spiegel.de/international/topic/national_socialist_underground/

You didn’t answer my previous question.

Really? You seriously bring the NSU case up and claim that "noone cared" when it's the biggest lawsuit Germany has seen in a long time, with widespread media coverage?

/e: ...and spiegel.de. Ugh.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Really? You seriously bring the NSU case up and claim that "noone cared" when it's the biggest lawsuit Germany has seen in a long time, with widespread media coverage?

I brought it up because it lacked a similar story to this. I know caneler Angela Merkel was quick to condemn the assassinations, but were was the public outcry?



But hey, if I’ve missed any of such stories, then feel free to fill me in.

 Sigvatr wrote:
/e: ...and spiegel.de. Ugh.

Hey man, the first result to pop up in google search is the first one to get picked.

Around my area, whenever the Neo-Nazi idiots put up their propoganda (they seem to like papering the telephone poles and trees near my International School with "Auslander Aus!" signs- classy, right? Make those little kids feel welcome!), the anti-fascist crowd comes around pretty much the day afterward and papers over their stickers with anti-fascist stickers. So I think you guys do pretty well on the whole anti-racism front.

Better than some of your neighboring countries that like to play the "We were totes innocent victims of the holocaust and definitely didn't collaborate AT ALL! " card

 Da Boss wrote:
Better than some of your neighboring countries that like to play the "We were totes innocent victims of the holocaust and definitely didn't collaborate AT ALL! " card

Thinking of one country in particular?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Better than some of your neighboring countries that like to play the "We were totes innocent victims of the holocaust and definitely didn't collaborate AT ALL! " card

Thinking of one country in particular?

I'm pretty sure we could think of more than one.

 Redcruisair wrote:

I brought it up because it lacked a similar story to this. I know caneler Angela Merkel was quick to condemn the assassinations, but were was the public outcry?

Are you kidding? Do you know when those took place? Point out where exactly noone cared. Thanks.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Better than some of your neighboring countries that like to play the "We were totes innocent victims of the holocaust and definitely didn't collaborate AT ALL! " card

Thinking of one country in particular?

I had Austria, Hungary and Poland in mind, but I'm sure others could be added to the list.