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Let's not get too ahead of ourselves. 3D printers although great have a "long ways" to go before they are to the point of 'consumer accessibility'. I don't mean that they aren't obtainable or cost effective but for the average person they are really paperweights. Granted by 'long ways' it could be as early as 5 years but probably closer to 8-10 years. The patents for a good portion of items and techniques which made certain printers better than others are starting to run out. This means some of the 'exclusive' key pieces that printers needed are more accessible to other companies allowing there to be a more competitive market. That combined with the ability to print most of the pieces and DIY fabrication for the frame being fairly easy to do has driven costs down to a low. However that only effects hobby printers and hasn't even touched the commercial 3d printer market. Yes there are more commercial businesses using 3D printing but they also aren't using a 10K printer.
The biggest obstacle with 3D printing is the actual knowledge to work with 3D files. These aren't simply .jpgs or .pdfs that you can easily find, download and then print out. Unless someone has knowledge with sculpting and working with 3D files, the printer itself is almost useless. There are websites that do get access to free 3d files, but 3D files have a broad range from digital sculpting to designs that are for different needs. One design might be great for laser cutting but useless for 3d printing, another may work great for 3d video and animation but useless for printing. Even with files there usually will have to be minor changes made to them here and there, this also varies depending on the printer you are using. A file could look great on the outside but is completely different when the internal structure wasn't hallowed out properly or maybe it is a complete solid block (wasting time and material).
Once you've resolved the 3D files, you have knowledge and access to them then we have to talk about the knowledge of using 3d printers. Even semi-mainstream printers like Makerbot that are supposed to be designed to buy, setup and print still require a bit of work to get them dialed in properly. This isn't like a inkjet printer where you simply just send a file to print and it works. Depending on the printer, extruders and material there are small issues with lower end printers. Very few printers are just setup, print and go. Even the Stratasys Mojo ($10,000) which is fairly straight forward, every once and awhile an issue will arise where you'll need to determine if it's printer or file related. Until they become like a laser printer where you simply swap out extruder head, material and it autoaligns and does everything else on its own... not requiring us to monkey with the printer bed, re-align between jobs, make sure its heated to a certain termperature then average users will have to spend hours online dialing it in. For technically minded people that isn't too bad, there is a wealth of information available if you look. Granted once the printer is dialed in, they are fairly reliable for a time they just aren't at the point yet.
For the people that are technically minded, have 3D knowledge then the low end printers are great. If you want to test your models out to make sure you have no overhangs or maybe your trying to do something different, you can prototype a design and make sure your model is setup properly via supports before you spend $50-150 to get a master high quality printed. then the cheap printers are great for you. If you want to use them for table top miniature gaming, the quality on them just isn't there without a bit of 'work'. By work I mean cleaning support structure, sanding down print lines (how much depends on printer) and so forth. Most miniatures that have been printed and painted, you can tell it wasn't a 'true miniature', by true I mean it wasn't metal/resin casted or plastic injected. Even on high quality resin printers, you can pick out parts that need cleanup before they can be properly used as masters.
Don't get me wrong 3D Printing has come a long ways in 20 years but it still has a ways before it finds a place in every home. It will also be quite awhile before it 'revolutionizes' miniature gaming. There are a lot of services offering custom miniatures starting to appear. Although they will be great in a few more years, right now their prices and quality just aren't there yet. They look good and are passable but there are much better looking, actual miniatures and proxies that are cheaper with better quality still.
The space marine may be GW's flagship, but there's better now and better in the future. And let's be frank, GW sculpting, while decent, hasn't been that interesting for a while.
The resin these newer light and resin curing printers use tend not to be durable. In fact, many such prints I have in hand would not, and have not survive tabletop use as a miniature that's moved around a lot. Their current best use is for terrain, or to create masters. Which again, is not a casual use.
No one is saying 3D printing is a dead end, but it's clearly not feasible for everyone right now, but in a 5-15 years things will improve.
And as per the OP, just because one very specific type of printer might produce decent results, we still don't need to hear about every crappy printer based on the older plastic extruder tech that's coming to market. Because all those are is stores trying to cash in on a wave of popularity by pawning off some really crappy printers at an inflated price.
Vertrucio wrote: The resin these newer light and resin curing printers use tend not to be durable. In fact, many such prints I have in hand would not, and have not survive tabletop use as a miniature that's moved around a lot. Their current best use is for terrain, or to create masters. Which again, is not a casual use.
This is fairly accurate, most resin 3d printed miniatures although great looking, even those from a high quality/high dollar printer can be easily scratched simply by running your fingernail across it.
I also happen to use a B9 - and it is a fine machine and more than capable of producing useable miniatures out of the box.
If you have issues with the strength of UV cured plastics, the issue is with the machine or the operator of the machine. Over time, the light output is reduced of UV sources - so to get the same cure, you need more time...or a new bulb. An alternative is to print on the machine, than cure after the fact (full sunlight, tanning beds or like our German friend...UV nail cure lights). With a full cure, it is just as durable as most the cast resins I use...comparable to many injected plastics even.
In terms of how acceptable they are - some anecdotal evidence based on my local group, about half are satisfied with the prototypes off the B9. The striations are small enough, that they are happy as they come off the printer. The other half are happy once I clean them up. Little bit of sanding and putty work to smooth them out and refine any details lost in the process. Only one is not happy enough with them to cast - that one happens to be me.
Now, after I print some prototypes of new figures or whatever on the B9 - once we get done passing them around and tweaking the design...I have a master printed on a commercial printer to use for making my molds for production from.
The reality though is that many people - I would almost be willing to say most people - don't have the ability to discern between a 10 micron layer and a 5 micron layer. Unless you point out the differences to them, it is lost on them. Sort of like giving a bottle of Petrus to a random person off the street...they wouldn't be able to tell you the difference between that and something like a Yellow Tail - both will get them through Sunday dinner with the family just as well.
Resin spoils over time, but it is not overnight or after each print as you suggest. It’s a bit like saying you have to throw ink jet cartridges away after each print, because cartridges dry out over time.
The resin easily survives a week in the machine, and this is not only my experience, but also from the guys casting jewellery, and if you know that you will not print for a while, you put it back into the bottle (don’t forget to filter) and I never had any problem with that. The stuff has an official shelf-life of a year, most likely more as nobody seems have to taken the trouble to really find out. Depending on the kind and number of projects I do, a bottle lasts one to three month.
The resin used is hardened by UV light. The resin is behind a orange perspex, which filters out most probably all of it. The risk that the resin dries out seems to be larger than that the resin being hardened.
But it also depends on the quality of the Resin used, and with many going the cheap route ...
I also expect way less use than yours with many now interested in the cheaper printers. So my arguments become more valid. Your use already would be considered heavy duty by many.
White and strong has far less detail, and has a very coarse surface, which isn’t suitable for miniatures (at least 6mm), but is nice to touch and is great for walls/buildings.
Ultra frosted was ok, but the design software rejected many structures, which printed well on the B9, as too fine. I’ve heard that you can now ignore those warnings and print anyway, but I haven’t tried, so I can’t comment on that.
Strong and felxibel is interesting for stands and other stuff that does not need to have that much detail, which makes it partially ideal for boardgame pieces.
Frosted needs some experience. Since it uses wax and resin you need to provide run-offs for the wax-substructure to be washed out and you need a certain wall-thickness for the whole model to support itself. But detail is extremly fine, even half-mm-diamater rods look round and not layered.
I do not care how fast Shapeways print. What I care about is the turn around time. I can print a sample in 2 to 8 hours depending on size. And I can print more than one at comparably (compared to Shapeways) low cost and I can print multiple poses in one run at relatively low cost. That is important for 6mm miniatures, because you (at least I) would not want to glue heads, arms, legs and weapons in that scale just to get some variety in poses.
And when I’m satisfied I print batch.
I would not like to wait 10 days to get a model, and than start to make a form, cast miniatures and have to remove flash and pegs.
But this is purely personal preference. I’m just not disciplined and anticipatory enough to design every miniature, so that it is perfect the first time. And waiting another 10 days to get the corrected model, would take all the fun out of the process for me. And I do not want to go through the from building/casting process, but again that is my preference and many people prefer to duplicate models by forms and casting.
We do bulk printing in which bulk-printing is an financial factor, your oriorities are different. Also with 6mm your way is easier but not cheaper than normal 6mm production. In your case of course noone really offers this kind of miniatures, so its the only way to go. With Baccus 6mm for example 90 romans at the same detail level made of metal cost me around 5 Pounds. Problem is: Many fascinated do not take into account how long a 28mm (what most want) needs to print and are surprised to find out it takes hours. What we do with casting and masters is pro-level and definitely not standard, so its hard to compare.
The fill level is irrelevant. For one it’s less than 100ml and second It’s a one time investment. Once you reached that level you only top up, you do not throw that stuff unused away.
My Stompa is about 28mm and has a volume of just under 5ml. If a kg translates to a litre that will be about 200 miniatures. There might be a difference in specific weight, there might be spill and there might be misprints, but if you read my post, you will realise that I doubled the price per miniature to cover all those cases. Or in other words I calculated the price for 100 miniatures per bottle.
And yes I can print 50 Space Marines in a week with time to spare. I haven’t printed Space Marines, but enough other stuff much larger like buildings and obviously much smaller, running the printer for over 16 hours a day - because it will print also when I sleep.
Now we get there, you mean 6mm at 28mm in height. That is different from what most expect from such a printer. They want Marines, Dreadnoughts at 28mm and then it gets really expensive. And as much as I like 6mm were are extreme niché. From what you write I can glean that you are quite experienced at printing, but most will not have that patience to learn and will have to learn it the hard way with many misprints.
I’m confused first you say the prints look so good, because there are only basic shapes (which is a bad sign) and now good basic shape printing is a sign of a high resolution printer (which is a good). Anyway I agree, print orientation can help a lot with stepping lines as can irregular surfaces.
This probably stems from the different scales we had in mind. Would I print the details I had on my models with your printer they would look less crisp and would have less sharper edges, though we are already talking about a quite high level. The printers I use excel in nearly every area. Problem again is, most people only see those masters presented by companies and imagine they can print such stuff with below 1000k.
André Winter L'Art Noir - Game Design and Translation Studio
There is only one thing I like to comment on which is seems to be a misunderstanding, everything else would mainly be old arguments
Duncan_Idaho wrote: [
<Snip>
Now we get there, you mean 6mm at 28mm in height. That is different from what most expect from such a printer. They want Marines, Dreadnoughts at 28mm and then it gets really expensive. And as much as I like 6mm were are extreme niché. <Snip>
No I mean a model that is in 6mm scale, but has a size of 28mm, because the original 5 times as large as a man. It is not a scaled up 6mm miniature. It is designed to be 28mm and has details comparable or better (depending on what you choose to compare to) any other 28mm miniature. Think of it as a man sized 28mm model of a robot.
After all those posts,
I think we have some kind of consens, i.e more expensive printer, better quality. 3D printing is not for every one and you must know what you do, regardless of where the stuff is printed, neither is making models from green stuff.
IMHO the real issue is, what quality is acceptable and if you can get it with the effort you are willing to invest (in the end reduced to time and money).
I'm sure I need less time to do miniatures the 3D home printing way and print whatever I need in a quality that I can accept, than I would need to do the same in green stuff, making masters and casting the stuff. To be honest I doubt, I would be able to do models in a quality that I find acceptable, if I had to do them in green stuff and cast them afterwards.
I use the miniatures I print at least once a week, and they are not worse for wear and tear than any other miniatures I use.
So I will answer the question "can I print my own wargaming miniatures with a printer below 5k" (which was denied in the post I replied to) with yes.
But everybody has to decide for himself, what quality he finds acceptable for wargaming miniatures and what he is willing or able to invest. Your demands on gaming miniatures are seemingly higher than mine, in contrast I value every miniature I do not have remove flash from, somebody else might prefer to invest money over time etc.. So everybody might have a different answer to the question.
What I do not understand is why a steep learning curve for 3D design and preparing models for Shapeways, choosing the correct process, learning to make forms, casting and cleaning models is ok, but the learning curve for 3D printing seems to be unacceptable. And please there is a learning curve for form making and casting. Just imagine how many wargamers exist and how many of them cast their own miniatures. The number of wargamers designing their own miniatures with green stuff are even much lower. And those processes are decades old, they had a lot of time to spread. The fact that you are comfortable with those processes, doesn't mean that they are not regarded as complex, expensive or messy for most others.
Why when there is manufacturer delivering bad castings, it's not "casting" it's the manufacturer, but when there is a guy, not curing his miniatures long enough or choosing the wrong resin or tool/machine, all 3D home printing is crap.
Why a 6 hour print time at home is a catastrophe, but a 10 day turn around for getting the stuff printed is cool.
Why is it anticipated that people will take cheap resin, but it is not anticipated that they will choose a wrong or cheap process at Shapeways.
If you want to judge what is possible, compare the processes assuming the same competence levels or it might happen that the stuff printed by a genius on 600$ FDM printer is much better than the stuff printed by a dummy on a 500k machine.
Having written that, I'll let it rest. It will be interesting to see how long it takes, until the quality of 5k printers reaches levels that will satisfy all players - this doesn't mean that every player would be able to make use of them or should buy one.
Duncan,
I'd appreciate it, if you could point me to a link, where I could see one of your cast miniatures compared to the good old SM for reference. I'd really be interested from a scientific standpoint about the quality and resolution that is possible and wanted.
What I do not understand is why a steep learning curve for 3D design and preparing models for Shapeways, choosing the correct process, learning to make forms, casting and cleaning models is ok, but the learning curve for 3D printing seems to be unacceptable. And please there is a learning curve for form making and casting. Just imagine how many wargamers exist and how many of them cast their own miniatures.
There seems to be a missunderstanding. I do work in the gaming business, hence we are doing everything on the pro-level. An besides GW nearly everyone else doing printed masters is doing it not in-house since the quality cannot be delivered by affordable printers in-house.
With regard to the quality that is needed for our prints: The printers can do ball bearings that run without problems under stress. Have a look at the X-Wing minis, they are printed too (the masters that is) but you will no longer see or feel the layers.
The main issue I have is not with you but with the lot that claims that 3D-printers are low invest and easy to use. They imagine that they will get Infinity-level minis in no time at low cost. And they imagine the printing files will be for free.
The problem with 5K printers reaching an agreeable level will be that suddenly lawyers will hunt down illegal files like vultures. At the moment that`s not a problem, but as soon as high-quality minis can be printed quickly at more or less the same price cast ones are sold for, it will get really nasty.
Btw, when I calculate a printer I always calculate in the software needed for it and a certain amount for replacement parts, learning time/miscasts and resin. Which would put your printer right in the middle of the 5-10K range. And when I calculate time I also calculate the time for cleaning up and creating the support structure.
André Winter L'Art Noir - Game Design and Translation Studio
Duncan_Idaho wrote: The problem with 5K printers reaching an agreeable level will be that suddenly lawyers will hunt down illegal files like vultures.
And it will work about as well as the lawyers who try to hunt down illegal game/movie/music/etc piracy. Getting the files will not be an issue at all if/when the hardware reaches a point where the average person has a use for those files.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Since all need printers for printing those files this issue can be tackled in different ways.
The most agreeable way for all would be an extra-tax on printers for printing such files. But that would not be in the interest of the lawyers.
It will be more in the way of GW protecting its IP. They won`t get all, but it will hurt the community most. Creating a printable CAD-file takes quite some skill and it is quite easy to mark the source of a file these days (and without the creator knowing it). Those skilled will over time think twice whether they offer their skills for free and get hunted by lawyers or whether they better work for companies and get payed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/06 10:25:34
André Winter L'Art Noir - Game Design and Translation Studio
Duncan_Idaho wrote: Creating a printable CAD-file takes quite some skill and it is quite easy to mark the source of a file these days (and without the creator knowing it).
Not so much. Every single program that I have used in the past 30 years that creates 3D files has the ability to export the file in an ASCII format - something that is human readable. Since the default file format for prototyping is still an STL format, even stripping the header from a binary one takes all of about 30 seconds.
Most people wouldn't be using proprietary formats like MAX or others that are specific to a software package, in large part due to the vast variety of software available (and versions of that software) most of which isn't able to handle those proprietary formats without a bridge of some form. Granted, those proprietary formats do carry some meta data that relates to the source - but it isn't super secret...and most can be stripped either within the software used to create them, or outside that software using various third party applications (or changed to reflect any sort of information you want it to).
In terms of the difficulty - it does take a bit of practice, but it really isn't that high of a threshold. There are thousands who 3D model for fun these days. The highest burden is really the software needed. Even that can be had without much difficulty or expense though. After that - it is just a question of time.
I think some people are trying a bit too hard to present this as 100% easy and affordable, when it's still clearly at a hobbyist level in usability and cost.
You guys keep addressing single arguments, trying to make it sound more casual than it is, when the whole of it is expensive and complex. That B9 printer is over $6,000 USD, for example. That's a whole lot of miniature game armies with no quality control issues and no fuss.
I'm really not sure what agenda that's pursuing other than trying to justify your own sub-hobby to yourselves. Thing is, all of us in this thread already know that 3D pringing is wonderful. Those who can make use of it, are making good use of it.
But the original topic of this argument is dealt with and done. 3D printing for miniatures is, simply put, not feasible for casuals, or even dedicated gamers. It will continue to be so for maybe another 5-10 years as the technology will slowly improve.
There is no need to try and skew the perspective towards the hobby and technology. Everyone already knows it's cool, and everyone wants it.
When it is finally ready for to be in everyone's homes, it will just happen the same way a microwave is.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/06 18:30:37
Peachy's the one I mentioned, for 100 bucks yes. It's not very usefull for us since it produces only squishy products right now, but the thing is, it is also a light-curing system, just not as sophisticated as the B9 above. So there's your proof of principle:
a) It can be awesome (as proven by the B9)
b) It can be cheap (as proven by Peachy)
Now we just have to wait until the better gear becomes affordable. 3.7 grand is allready much less than good 3D printers used to cost a while ago.
More like DTP everybody could use it these days, but only a few are capable of doing a good job.
And there could be the something similar like we have today with printers that can be used at home, by regular people, and with minor problems. The best stuff might not be readily available for regular people but something good enough might end up being possible.
Well, we are still in the early stages of 3d printers. It's like cell phones - mass consumption started in the 90s, but the device reached full maturity maybe around 2010 with the touch screen format. So, prices are still dropping and the quality is going to improve, especially when mass-market companies like Dremel are stepping into the game. It will be interesting to see what the big companies will bring into the game, once they start to put big teams of experienced engineers on R&D. I have a feeling there's going to be quite a few innovations once that happens.
Seems to me that resin printers are the way to go for higher quality minis. In comparison to the B9, the cheapest resin printer at the moment on KS (LittleRP) is $1,250 kitted with a 1080p projector. The price/quality ratio will still improve, as a '4k' projectors will directly double the resolution (and drop the prices of 1080 projectors). Unfortunately the cheapest true 4k projectors are still in $7k range, but obviously that will change in a few years.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/08 03:30:39
Actually real stereolitho-printers that work with lasers are the way to go. Projector printers are nice, but went nowhere in the pro-section, cause the porjector is so much more expensive in comparison. And this will happen probably in the entry-level-section, too.
The most interesting right now are printhead printers that print resin and wax with a dual head. They are insanely expensive right now, but speedwise and resolutionwise thy set the standards.
The comparison with cell-phones does not fit, cause it needs way more know-how to operate a 3D-printer.
André Winter L'Art Noir - Game Design and Translation Studio
The first computer I owned, you had to actually program everything you wanted to do by hand. Software didn't come via downloads, or even discs...sheets of paper, with lines of code.
Within 10 years of that first computer I owned, the internet was a 'thing' and most people either had a computer, or easy access to one. 10 years after that - most people have a computer (or two or three in their house). 10 years after that now we have tablets and phones that have several fold more functionality than those old computers.
That is a pretty apt comparison...it took considerable more know how to operate those first generation computers than it does to make a manifold model.
Right now, the biggest thing that is slowing down 3D printing are patents and licenses for those patents. That is really it. This year, a large portion of those patents will be expired and a lot of the faster, cleaner processes will become open for other manufacturers to use. When that happens (should be this summer) expect to see a rather significant expansion of the market.
The reason why all the current offereings stick with the same techniques (in particular FDM versus SLS or SLA) is due to the expiration of patents. The basic technique for SLA is now free game (which lead to the B9, Form1 and FLS printers...all now in the power user price category) while FDM printers are now under $1000.
Sean_OBrien wrote: The first computer I owned, you had to actually program everything you wanted to do by hand. Software didn't come via downloads, or even discs...sheets of paper, with lines of code.
Within 10 years of that first computer I owned, the internet was a 'thing' and most people either had a computer, or easy access to one. 10 years after that - most people have a computer (or two or three in their house). 10 years after that now we have tablets and phones that have several fold more functionality than those old computers.
That is a pretty apt comparison...it took considerable more know how to operate those first generation computers than it does to make a manifold model.
Right now, the biggest thing that is slowing down 3D printing are patents and licenses for those patents. That is really it. This year, a large portion of those patents will be expired and a lot of the faster, cleaner processes will become open for other manufacturers to use. When that happens (should be this summer) expect to see a rather significant expansion of the market.
The reason why all the current offereings stick with the same techniques (in particular FDM versus SLS or SLA) is due to the expiration of patents. The basic technique for SLA is now free game (which lead to the B9, Form1 and FLS printers...all now in the power user price category) while FDM printers are now under $1000.
While I totally agree, with your statement, could you please slow down with the technical acronyms? I'm not that deep into it yet to know all the different methods from the top of my memory by exact name.
But yeah. modelling will become more readily available, also, you don't need thousands of people making good models. You only need a couple of good artists that are willing to do good models and that will allready go a looong way.
Duncan_Idaho wrote: Actually real stereolitho-printers that work with lasers are the way to go. Projector printers are nice, but went nowhere in the pro-section, cause the porjector is so much more expensive in comparison. And this will happen probably in the entry-level-section, too.
The most interesting right now are printhead printers that print resin and wax with a dual head. They are insanely expensive right now, but speedwise and resolutionwise thy set the standards.
The comparison with cell-phones does not fit, cause it needs way more know-how to operate a 3D-printer.
Hmm, will have to check out those technologies, thanks.
I wouldn't say 3d-printers are difficult to operate, though. The machines are relatively simple, there's a ton of free models out there, and basic 3d-modelling isn't that hard either. Of course it's still very much a hobbyist machine and takes some learning - I wouldn't expect to see a 3d printer "in every home" - but I'm betting a ton of tinkerers and hobbyists will have them around.
The cell phone is an example of an evolutionary process. We started with a massive brick of a phone, that was really expensive and couldn't do anything else except call people. 20 years later, it's a completely different thing - with a few big innovations along the way. Once you get a critical mass of people wanting to have it, more money appears, larger companies jump in and the evolution speeds up.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/01/09 11:32:52
I wouldn't say 3d-printers are difficult to operate, though. The machines are relatively simple,
Which they are actually not. Mechanically e.g. you need to check whether the table, etc. is level or you will get trash. The good printers do it for you but they are expensive. Then, most people don´t know how to repair/exchange parts that fail and especially with the cheap ones there are quite some parts that will cease reliable operation after some time. You can ignore it of course, but it will show in your prints. You need at least a certain level of technical understanding to make really good use of a printer.
there's a ton of free models out there, and basic 3d-modelling isn't that hard either.
Of which at least 70% produce trash when you print them. Some because they are just 3D-models that were never ment to be printed and thus ignored all necessary changes to th model. Some because different printers need different designs. Some because the support structure was ignored, etc. And basic shapes is not the problem. But what gamers want is beyond basic shapes and if you do not want your result look like a cheap plastic toy you need to invest quite some money to get the right tools. A good CAD-programm costs you at least 1K and you will need one if you want to get beyond toying around. Then a 3D-pen is recommendable, cause it makes the job way easier. Good ones cost you at least 300+. And then it takes you hours after hours and failed print after failed print to learn how to really do it. If you are lucky someone teaches you how, but most will give up during this stage. Why do my designs cave in (walls to thin or missing support structure), why does the printer stop suddenly at printing the railing (missing support structure for overhangs), why is my design skewed (printing-table no longer level), why does the printer software reject my design (forgot to leave holes for removing the support wax), etc.
The cell phone is an example of an evolutionary process. We started with a massive brick of a phone, that was really expensive and couldn't do anything else except call people. 20 years later, it's a completely different thing - with a few big innovations along the way. Once you get a critical mass of people wanting to have it, more money appears, larger companies jump in and the evolution speeds up.
The cell phone is quite different. Even when the first Motorola came out an idiot was able to hit the number buttons an got connected to whom he wanted after a quick chat with an operator. The technical side already then was run by pros. 3D-printing is far mor complex or wo stay with the phone, it is much closer to the tech setting up all the infrastructure for the phone.
André Winter L'Art Noir - Game Design and Translation Studio
*Thinking of using that to go hog wild on cityscape scenery.
Pretty sure it won't do individual models...
I have no experience with it hands on, but I actually researched it about a month or so ago. It's not bad, but it's not great anyway. You can definitely use it to prototype and then recast resin scenery.
I'm still waiting for UV 3D printers to become mainstream, plastic extrusion is never going to be good enough for 28mm wargaming in my opinion. My guess is within 3 or so years, UV 3D printers will be $1000 or less off the shelf.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/10 11:56:36
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
I wouldn't say 3d-printers are difficult to operate, though. The machines are relatively simple,
Which they are actually not. Mechanically e.g. you need to check whether the table, etc. is level or you will get trash. The good printers do it for you but they are expensive. Then, most people don´t know how to repair/exchange parts that fail and especially with the cheap ones there are quite some parts that will cease reliable operation after some time. You can ignore it of course, but it will show in your prints. You need at least a certain level of technical understanding to make really good use of a printer.
there's a ton of free models out there, and basic 3d-modelling isn't that hard either.
Of which at least 70% produce trash when you print them. Some because they are just 3D-models that were never ment to be printed and thus ignored all necessary changes to th model. Some because different printers need different designs. Some because the support structure was ignored, etc. And basic shapes is not the problem. But what gamers want is beyond basic shapes and if you do not want your result look like a cheap plastic toy you need to invest quite some money to get the right tools. A good CAD-programm costs you at least 1K and you will need one if you want to get beyond toying around. Then a 3D-pen is recommendable, cause it makes the job way easier. Good ones cost you at least 300+. And then it takes you hours after hours and failed print after failed print to learn how to really do it. If you are lucky someone teaches you how, but most will give up during this stage. Why do my designs cave in (walls to thin or missing support structure), why does the printer stop suddenly at printing the railing (missing support structure for overhangs), why is my design skewed (printing-table no longer level), why does the printer software reject my design (forgot to leave holes for removing the support wax), etc.
The cell phone is an example of an evolutionary process. We started with a massive brick of a phone, that was really expensive and couldn't do anything else except call people. 20 years later, it's a completely different thing - with a few big innovations along the way. Once you get a critical mass of people wanting to have it, more money appears, larger companies jump in and the evolution speeds up.
The cell phone is quite different. Even when the first Motorola came out an idiot was able to hit the number buttons an got connected to whom he wanted after a quick chat with an operator. The technical side already then was run by pros. 3D-printing is far mor complex or wo stay with the phone, it is much closer to the tech setting up all the infrastructure for the phone.
Not sure if you are taking a piss, trolling - or really believe what you are saying...
Yes, 3D printers are simple to operate. They are more complicated than...say...a desktop printer, but just barely. I have worked with a few commercial printers (Objets and Projets) as well as owning a B9 since shortly after it was released. All pretty simple and straight forward...and if you consider leveling a table difficult...I don't know how to respond to that. DIY options are more complicated by their nature. Durability will depend on the parts that are chosen to build the printer - some will be prone to faster wear and tear, others will be more durable than the best commercial printers (since you only answer to your own budget - not market pressures). In addition to the physical machine, the controller and connecting software will also vary depending on what you choose to use for it - but DIY machines are that way.
So...if 70% of the free models are trash, that still leaves 30% that are not. That is pretty good. Still though, you don't see a huge selection of free, ready to print 3D models right now because there isn't a force in play to create them. When that force shows up - the models will as well.
Good CAD programs do not cost $1K...well, some do - but money really isn't the deciding factor on what is good or bad. I have been involved with 3D design and drafting since 3DS Max R2 - not quite 20 years. I have used pretty much every commercial and freeware package that is available, and during that time I have worked with some of the best 3D artists around. What I have come to learn is that it is much less about how much the software costs and very much about who is using it. My go to 3D software for creating most my 3D printing work is actually Silo ($159 retail). Does 90% of what I need it to do, handles almost all my inorganic modeling and does most my organic modeling as well. I do do organic details in Mudbox (faster than Silo for that) and rig/pose in 3DS Max ($3500 or so last I looked). I don't 'need' to though - Silo can do it without much difficulty, just takes a few more steps to get there. Other options for detailing are Hexagon (think it is around $20-30), ZBrush ($700 or so), Sculptris (free - but will need to check the license...) and others. Animating is pretty simple in Blender (free) as well. You can find various free software packages as well which work well enough, though often with quirky interfaces. The work that people who spend the time to learn them do is no less than what is done by those using software that costs $3000+. There are also packages that fill the range between free and $3000+ (including Silo as I have already mentioned).
Not sure what you are talking about regarding a 3D pen. Only 3D pen I know of is the 3Doodler...and I am pretty sure you don't mean that. If you are talking about a haptic device...I find them annoying to use, so do most the professionals I have talked with. If you are talking about a stylus and tablet like a Wacom - they are handy if you are using a program like ZBrush or Mudbox, but much less useful for traditional modeling. My Intuos cost about $250, you can get other models for under $100, and like everything else it isn't needed. There isn't anything I can do with the tablet that I can't do with the mouse - the tablet just makes it a little faster.
The rest...some of us call that learning. Anything you start to do, you will have failures on the way. Weather it is cooking, painting miniatures, drawing or designing 3D models to print. You learn through failure, not through success. Will some people give up after they fail a few times? Sure - they give up in everything else, why expect anything different. However, you don't need everyone to be a designer.
Heck, just a simple point of example since we are on a [largely] 40K related site. Paper models. Complicated, 3D designs that have to be tested, various rules that go into how they get built, I would say in many ways even more difficult to design a detailed 3D model than it is to design a detailed 3D print. When it comes to paper 40K stuff, there is one person who is leaps and bounds in front of everyone else - Eli Patoroch. Now, that one person has produced nearly every IG and SM vehicle as well as most the Orks, many Tau and even a handful of the rest. When built well, they are hard to distinguish from the real thing. All you need is one person who enjoys doing the work...everyone else will just have to learn how to level a table.
Turning the printer on is not the problem, it ist the know-how to keep it running. And I have seen enough trash being printed just because even the simplest things were overlooked/ignored. And yes, quite some people are really too stupid to level a table. You are assumg far too much experience. But most would already be lost hooking up their printer in a WLAN.
The reason you see few good free files is that those people who can do good files know that they can get good money for the hours after hours they put into them. They will rather sell their designs at e.g. Shapeways than handing them out for nothing. And these days earning money whatever way you can is what most people need.
Silo is nice, but you really need to know hat you are doing, again, those who want consumer-printers would really have problems with it.
haptic and tablet > Yes.
Yeah, but most consumers are not willing to learn that much. Many really believe they just need a printer and a file and then they get what they want, like with an PDF and an ink-printer.
André Winter L'Art Noir - Game Design and Translation Studio
Waaagh an' a 'alf
1500 Pts WIP 
