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What qualifies as an acceptable conversion? Where is the line between "Proxy" and "Conversion"?

Is the correct base and appropriate wargear enough to make it work?

Specifically I'm looking at Warhammer 40K Chaos Spawn; hate the original models. I have the idea to use the GW fantasy Putrid Blightkings as Nurgle Spawn, or maybe Spirit Hosts to represent Crimson Slaughter ghosts.
I really dig those models as-is but understand that that is technically a proxy and not a conversion. How much would I have to 40K them up for you, as an opponent, and further for a Tournament Organizer, to accept them as 40K Chaos Spawn?

I realize that's up to the specific TOs, but I'm asking you folks what you say and what you've seen.

Cheers!

A Proxy = An empty base or something completely inappropriate (soda can, paint pot, tree)

A Counts As = A model with the same base type but different appearance or weapon.

A Conversion = An altered model.

A conversion will generally be a counts as.

Groovy. With that in mind, replace all instances of "Proxy" in my OP with "Counts As".

Rule of cool dictates whether I accept a counts as/conversion or not. In this case, using one of those new Nurgle models as a counts as spawn is fine with me. It looks Chaos-y and gross. Sounds like a spawn to me.

In general I don't have an issue with someone using a good looking model that accurately represents what you're going for. Its also much harder for me to hate on someone using other GW models (even fantasy) to count as something.

My personal rules would be
1. Is it on the correct base type? It just really needs to be if you're to be taken serious.
2. Is someone using this model for an advantage? If yes, then in a competitive game I have an issue. **Edit to this, By advantage I mean using a much smaller model etc. to gain an advantage**

Bonus- does it look cool? well its even better if it does lol

Example- On the Necron rumor list there was talk of using a Nagash model as a Tran Ctan ....... which sounds cool. although I personally don't play against Tran Ctans outside Appoc haha.

Correct base + general profile + approximation of wargear = acceptable.

Using a Blightking as a spawn is perfectly acceptable, if it's on the correct base there is literally no reason for someone to have a problem with that.

Similar profile, no real WYSIWYG issues regarding war gear and frankly it's a really good alternative with all the tentacles and disgustingness.

If someone takes exception to this then it pretty much tells you all you need to know about them.

Cheers for the quick and helpful replies everyone, I really dig all the positivity around here!

I'm leaning towards the Blightkings as is and definitely planning on setting them up properly as Chaos Spawn with the 40mm round bases. Might try raise them on the bases a little bit since the Chaos Spawn are a mite taller from the looks of it, to try keep the profile as similar as possible.

May even swap a head or two for CSM helmets to add that 40K element!

To give you an idea, I use Dryads (on round bases) as Daemonettes because I really don't like the current Daemonette aesthetic. I've done nothing to 40K-ify them apart from the base and colour scheme. No-one's ever complained. You're in exactly the same boat.

On the other hand, as always, the answer with regards to tournaments is "Check with the organiser."

My rule of thumb is that if I have to ask what something is multiple times, it probably doesn't do a good enough job to break the threshold between "conversion/counts as" and "proxy".

As stated earlier: "rule of cool" tends to settle any issues: if it is obvious you put some work into the model, few could argue against it.
We use models rather than cardboard tokens because we like the "realistic" epic look of the game.

WYSIWYG is the other consideration, to not add confusion to the game: the model looks like what it does.

Daemon spawn is derived from some poor guy who got blessed with a bit too much mutation from his favored chaos god.
So thinking of a poor man's daemon-prince, what you propose seems more than adequate.
You could always add a few extra libs or tentacles just to fit the stereotype a little more.

Anyone willing to go beyond just slapping some models together and expanding on the design is what many of us can appreciate: not facing the same-old models every time.

Good luck and have fun!

I convert almost EVERYTHING!

I have to make it my own

Rule of Cool often trumps things.

It's helpful to have it be WYSIWYG as much as you can, though I believe spawns are the ones which are basically just mutated monsters with no real guns or anything so that shouldnt be hard. It really only matters for things like heavy weapons anyway, so the enemy knows whats coming and where.

Are spawns independant creatures? ONe thing I'd suggest is if you are doing a converted or counts-as unit, all the models of the same type that are on the board should be consistent.

So dont have one nurgle spawn thats a blightking, and another nurgle spawn thats something else, cos it'll get too annoying for the opponent to keep track of whats what.

Other than that, go for it. The fantasy line of models has some great alternatives for chaos stuff.

I'm in Team Rule of Cool as well with the "I need to know what that is" caveat. As Niiru is saying, consistency is key here. Consistent with each as well as the army. If you can fit the theme, I'm more excited to play against you.

I will state I have never gotten guff on my Flesh Hounds which are WoC warhounds on bike bases. This is a valid counts as, as they are painted and based to fit within my army and are easily distinguishable. My biggest conversion is Defiler+Ghorgon=Soul Grinder, which again is easily recognizable and represents the weapon loadouts I use. For another counts as, I'm planning on using the Glottkin as an Imperial Knight to go with my Daemon force. I'm checking proportions now and of course will ask my opponents to make sure.

I do get tired of seeing Solo cups, or styrofoam cups as drop pods.
Empty flier stands for fliers,
a fresh from a box toy monster truck for a battlewagon, nothing changed, even still had the chrome rims and led multi colored lights.
huge amount of quarters as proxy termagaunts.
tupperware as rhinos, larger tupperware as landraiders.

WYSWYG does not just mean “modeled with the right wargear” The core behind it is what it says on the tin: What you see is what you get. I should be able to look at the mini and get a solid idea of what it’s supposed to be. If you have a big chunky thing with lots of CC weapons, I know what role it fills on the table. I don’t care if it’s the official GW 40k model, something imported from WHFB, or a 3rd party thing.

I might have an issue with you using spirit hosts, as they don’t convey “spawn” to me. But I’m willing to give everyone 3 free passes for odd stuff I need to keep track of. More then that, and the game bogs down with me having to double-check what stuff is, or make mistakes because I forgot what’s what.

Wicked, once again thanks for the quick posts and clarifications!

If/when I grab the models, I'll use exclusively Blightkings as Chaos Spawn for my army. Fit the theme better, and I can paint their armour bits to match my Chaos Marines so they'll be consistent and cohesive.

As far as chaos spawn go it's as long as it looks cool and is probably around the right size. I mean Tzeentch makes there really no standard for spawn anyways. So the more twisted or unique the spawn is the better really.

Same rough size? It's good.

Same sort of weapons/equipment? It's good.

Anything else? Nope.

I go with the rule of cool.

If its cool ok w/e.

If its not, its a matter of if you're cool, then w/e.

If you're not, and the army isn't then bugger off.

I'm pretty much up for anything as long as I can tell what it is, I don't like count as so no Helldrakes being used as Stormravens but as long as the conversion fits the army then sure let's crack on and play.

base size around the same, other than that, the rule of cool and being somewhat recognizable on the table is all that matter, I made my tervagon a moving spawning pit because I liked the idea more.

 Laughingcarp wrote:
What qualifies as an acceptable conversion? Where is the line between "Proxy" and "Conversion"?

Is the correct base and appropriate wargear enough to make it work?

Specifically I'm looking at Warhammer 40K Chaos Spawn; hate the original models. I have the idea to use the GW fantasy Putrid Blightkings as Nurgle Spawn, or maybe Spirit Hosts to represent Crimson Slaughter ghosts.
I really dig those models as-is but understand that that is technically a proxy and not a conversion. How much would I have to 40K them up for you, as an opponent, and further for a Tournament Organizer, to accept them as 40K Chaos Spawn?

I realize that's up to the specific TOs, but I'm asking you folks what you say and what you've seen.

Cheers!

Just dont go playing at any GW stores.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:


Just dont go playing at any GW stores.

As long as you're using GW models, they won't have a problem with it. GW's always encouraged conversions and counts-as so long as it's appropriate. They still have columns in their magazines dedicated to this sort of thing.

Personally, as long as the conversion/counts-as is cool, appropriately sized, and it's pretty clear what it is, I don't see how there could ever be a problem.

 Brother SRM wrote:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:


Just dont go playing at any GW stores.

As long as you're using GW models, they won't have a problem with it. GW's always encouraged conversions and counts-as so long as it's appropriate. They still have columns in their magazines dedicated to this sort of thing.

Personally, as long as the conversion/counts-as is cool, appropriately sized, and it's pretty clear what it is, I don't see how there could ever be a problem.

hmm, not my local GW. God forbid I use my converted biker marines.
But, I doubt that store will last very long, as the actual local flgs attracts all the gamers, and no one ever buys from that gw. All our local gamers have made the pledge.

Haha nice, ninja.
Yeah my GW is totally cool with anything as long as it's entirely GW models.

If I can't get ahold of a specific model (limited run, cost, fine cast, etc.), I'll convert a similar model. Examples are my LotD Sgt. Centurius which is converted from a similar pose SM fig, or my Seraphim Sister Superior with Powerfist (both 2nd Ed unit/options).

On the other hand, for units that didn't have models, such as Justicar Thawn or Grand Master Mordrak and his Ghostly Bodyguard, I converted a couple boxes of Grey Knight Terminators (so easy, GW should be ashamed they drop Mordrak and Thawn when they already had a kit in stock!).

SJ

Well technically one of my armies I've been playing with lately has been all counts as. I have an unhealthy obsession with Brazen Knights, so I've been using my chaos as Space Wolves. Juggernaught riding Berzerkers are my Thunderwolf Cavalry, Berzerkers are my Blood Claws, Terminators are Wolf Guard, and Raptors are Skyclaws. I'll be taking the army to a tourny in 2 weeks so we'll see what everyone has to say about it in a competitive setting.

Counts as is perfectly fine. Rule of Cool as was said. But also we may want to try different things and don't have the time/money/energy to keep buying everything to be WYSIWYG.

Also maybe counts as a few games before spending all that time and money and energy making sure that is what you want.

Counts as is perfectly acceptable. Even GW encouraged this before. Not sure if they do so now but until 6th edition they encouraged Counts As and home rules.

For ork players there is no line. Anything is an acceptable conversion so long as you're not the joker taping stuff together and sticking gum to things to make a unit.