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Davor wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Wave Serpents def are but as there is no other Dedicated Transport its very annoying for those Edlar players who don't want to spam cheese...........

Howling Banshees are the opposte :(

Why? What is so cheesy about them? What makes them cheesy?

The fact that they're absurdly durable, put out tremendous firepower (much of which ignores cover can can be made twin linked, the other weapons are always twin linked), are available from every FoC slot and largely unrestricted numbers, can be super-scoring, are incredibly fast, and aren't particularly expensive in terms of points cost?

So therefore Wave Serpents are not cheesy but the people who decide to use 3, 4, 5 or more of them.

Which in turn means almost every Eldar player because it's the only dedicated transport and the infantry largely don't function properly without a transport.

SGTPozy wrote:
Just to clarify; they are all separated as I want the discussions to be separate as if all of them were together then there would be too many discussions going on and it would likely get too crowded (like that Tyranids tactics thread which was way too busy. You'd have some people talking about Eldar, some about Tau, others saying random crap and so on.

This mah

 Sir Arun wrote:
Every army has things that are cheesy when you field more than one:

Eldar: Wave Seprent, Wraithknight
Tau: HYMP Broadside Trio, Riptide with Ion Acc + EWO
Chaos: Tzeentch flying ML3 DP with Malefic Daemonology and spell familiar, Nurgle flying ML3 DP w. Biomancy, Black Mace & spell familiar, Heldrake
Grey Knights: Draigowing, Nemesis Dreadknight
Necron: tooled up 2+/3++ mindshackle scarab phlactery Overlord on CCB, Nightscythe
Tyranids: Flyrant with dual twin-linked Devourers and e-grubs
Space Marines: Grav Centurions + Tiggy
Dark Angels: Dakka Banner + trio of Land Raider Crusader Deathwing Vehicles

Orks?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Niiru wrote:

Every army... except Orks, apparently

oh, got me here

Also, what about new armies except for GK? And old ones like CSM, SM (i don't think that grav cent spam is actually present as they're so super expensive), Dark angels...don't know about dakka banner + landraiders. It has a problem vs armored lists, so i'd just call it one-way effective. Yes, it's solid at munching infantry and sitting on objects with LRC but it's not nearly as tough to deal with as serp spam even for my infantry orkses as LR are easier to deal with than serpents - they're easier to catch and kill, they don't shoot so far, they don't have such mobility.
I think that stating: "All codexes have broken combos" is wrong when there are so many exceptions of this rule. There's a line between a focused army and cheese.
For example, would you call blitz brigade cheezy? 5 battlewagons. Or would you call CSM mass infiltrators cheezy?
Now what about IK spam, wave serpent spam and alike. See?

I'd call all of them cheesy...

SGTPozy wrote:
I'd call all of them cheesy...

all of which?

All of the ones you mentioned; Blitz brigade, mass infiltrators and the spam.

100% pure Wisconsin.

The issue is the rock-paper-scissors-ness of 40k pushes the game into skew lists. Eldar have one of the most easily available and difficult to counter skew lists around (minimum everything so you can take more Wave Serpents) and it's a pretty silly one since it's reliant on their APC being a better MBT than their MBT.

The Codex is not inherently cheesy, but it does have pretty ass internal balance so it's hard to find a line between hyper-competitive and very casual with it.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The issue is the rock-paper-scissors-ness of 40k pushes the game into skew lists. Eldar have one of the most easily available and difficult to counter skew lists around (minimum everything so you can take more Wave Serpents) and it's a pretty silly one since it's reliant on their APC being a better MBT than their MBT.

The Codex is not inherently cheesy, but it does have pretty ass internal balance so it's hard to find a line between hyper-competitive and very casual with it.

Hence why I hate fighting Eldar. Having to glance on 6s, and not ignoring their cover by any means sure does suck. Plus, I hate Wraithknights, because I have Deathmarks, and that's it. If they die, I'm not touching that thing, much less 3 of them.

How many threads are we going to have about "are eldar cheesy/OP?" We had about 10 on this forum in 2014, can we pick a new topic now?

 krodarklorr wrote:
I hate to admit it, but take away Wave Serpents and Wraithknights, and the Eldar codex isn't cheesy. Obnoxiously powerful compared to most other books, yes, but you don't quite cross the boundary into "Cheesy" until you add in the two mentioned units.

You can take the two most powerful units out of the book and you still have the most powerful book in the game. Footdar still dominates everything with bs 4 rending and ap2 all over the place. Battle focus alone makes eldar OP. Right now people spam WK and WS but take those out and people just start spamming guardians hemlocks and war walkers. I'm quitely assmebling a footdar list just to show people it's not the WS...it's the whole dang book that's the problem. I love eldar too...it's just reading the codex without laughing is almost impossible. Have you seen the price of rangers???? you could put 60 on the feild for under 700 points...pretty sure it would dominate.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Every army has things that are cheesy when you field more than one:

Eldar: Wave Seprent, Wraithknight
Tau: HYMP Broadside Trio, Riptide with Ion Acc + EWO
Chaos: Tzeentch flying ML3 DP with Malefic Daemonology and spell familiar, Nurgle flying ML3 DP w. Biomancy, Black Mace & spell familiar, Heldrake
Grey Knights: Draigowing, Nemesis Dreadknight
Necron: tooled up 2+/3++ mindshackle scarab phlactery Overlord on CCB, Nightscythe
Tyranids: Flyrant with dual twin-linked Devourers and e-grubs
Space Marines: Grav Centurions + Tiggy
Dark Angels: Dakka Banner + trio of Land Raider Crusader Deathwing Vehicles

Actually, you just highlighted the problem with WS. It's not that it's "good", it's that WS are a troop choice, meaning essentially unrestricted numbers.

Sure, a lot of units like Grav Centurions + Tiggy are "good" -- but you can't field JUST Grav Centurions and Tiggies. Flyrants are good, but you can't just play Flyrants. Because Wave Serpents are a basic transport, you can have as many of them as you have troop units.

Aside from that, they are ridiculously good for the point cost. There is no other unit in the game that provides comparable functionality for the points, nevermind being very cheap, and nevermind not taking up a FA/Elite slot. And it holds scoring units.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Toofast wrote:
How many threads are we going to have about "are eldar cheesy/OP?" We had about 10 on this forum in 2014, can we pick a new topic now?

I suspect that it won't end until it gets nerfed, at which point they will be replaced with equally annoying threads about how eldar suck.

Yes, serpent spam is sucky to play against. No, we don't need to hear about it again

Yes, but only because the point cost for a few of their amazing options are too efficient. For example, I don't play Eldar, but the most common load out for wave serpents costs what? 130pts? The Dark Angel Land Speeder Vengeance costs 140 base (160 or so the way I'd want to play it).

The wave serpent has all kinds of crap going for it, including being a transport, and is commonly fielded for less points than the Land Speeder Vengeance, a gunboat that doesn't have enough power to make up for how easy it is to take out.

Craziness.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
I hate to admit it, but take away Wave Serpents and Wraithknights, and the Eldar codex isn't cheesy. Obnoxiously powerful compared to most other books, yes, but you don't quite cross the boundary into "Cheesy" until you add in the two mentioned units.

You can take the two most powerful units out of the book and you still have the most powerful book in the game. Footdar still dominates everything with bs 4 rending and ap2 all over the place. Battle focus alone makes eldar OP. Right now people spam WK and WS but take those out and people just start spamming guardians hemlocks and war walkers. I'm quitely assmebling a footdar list just to show people it's not the WS...it's the whole dang book that's the problem. I love eldar too...it's just reading the codex without laughing is almost impossible. Have you seen the price of rangers???? you could put 60 on the feild for under 700 points...pretty sure it would dominate.

Eh, then that comes down to the fact that spamming anything is kinda cheesy, though not in all cases effective. I think Warwalkers are way too good, yes. But guardians, meh. My non-competitive Tyranid lists will tear a hole through Footdar so easily. Same with my Necrons. And Rangers are cheap because their T3 with a 5+ save, and snipers are heavy weapons. Plus, they don't do gak to vehicles.

 Xenomancers wrote:

You can take the two most powerful units out of the book and you still have the most powerful book in the game. Footdar still dominates everything with bs 4 rending and ap2 all over the place.

If you're majorly losing to foot Eldar, something is wrong. They've got "roll lots of 6's" for AP2, on relatively short ranged guns on T3 5+ or T3 4+sv infantry, unless we're talking roughly Terminator priced Wraithguard.

Have you seen the price of rangers???? you could put 60 on the feild for under 700 points...pretty sure it would dominate.

Unlikely, particularly if you have any tanks, horde units, or even a modicum of terrain. If you're relying on footslogging heavy infantry, you might have a problem, but you'll face that problem against every army in the game.

Eldar are very powerful, but these things aren't what makes them spectacularly scary.

 Xenomancers wrote:

You can take the two most powerful units out of the book and you still have the most powerful book in the game. Footdar still dominates everything with bs 4 rending and ap2 all over the place. Battle focus alone makes eldar OP. Right now people spam WK and WS but take those out and people just start spamming guardians hemlocks and war walkers. I'm quitely assmebling a footdar list just to show people it's not the WS...it's the whole dang book that's the problem. I love eldar too...it's just reading the codex without laughing is almost impossible. Have you seen the price of rangers???? you could put 60 on the feild for under 700 points...pretty sure it would dominate.

Good luck. Hope you proxy all those Rangers before you actually go buy them.

I played Footdar in 5th and the early part of 6th. Footdar worked in 5th edition for a couple of reasons; vehicle heavy meta, Eldrad, and cover. It was a spoiler list because everyone loaded up on melta for tanks instead of anti-infantry weapons. Not rolling for powers meant you always had fortune and Eldrad could cast it twice. Cover was a 4+ and there was very little that ignored it (just templates).

6th killed Footdar. Once Tau came out and the buffmander became a thing, Footdar was done. Heldrakes didn't help either. Too much ignores cover and no guarantee of getting Fortune. The only way to keep those T3 4+/ T3 5+ models alive was to put them in a tank. Turns out the tank was really, really good. Now everyone hates them because of that tank. Battle Focus and Bladestorm are really good, but footslogging with 12" and 18" weapons on T3 infantry won't get the most out of it.

Guardians are OK, but not great. If they get the alpha against Marines, sure, they'll do a bit better than most units. They might even win the fight at equal points. But then, shouldn't that be true of just about anything unloading a 12" gun at it's optimal target?

Yes, a Serpent can give them a chance of getting that Alpha, but then you're spending over 200 points to kill only part of a Marine squad. As a suicide unit. Per point, less firepower than podded Marines. And far lower survivability.

If you let guardians walk up to those Marines (2+ turns in range of Boltguns), well, what would you expect? Same could be said for footslogging 3 CSM termies.

The rest of (non-wraith) footdar are MEQ prices for GEQ+ survivability and substantially lower range in exchange for higher firepower and mobility.

I think you'll find that all those low-S weapons people say are worthless will remove bucketloads of MEQ-priced footdar.

Shenanigany? Yes. But footdar pays for those shenanigans. I don't see it as cheese.

If you like those sniper rifles so much, why not SM Scouts? No bs4, but you get:
-S4 (not paper in melee)
-T4 (much more survivable)
-4+ (Most small arms are ap5)
-Grenades (can do much more than Rangers if charged)
-Access to a heavy weapon
-Access toMelts Bombs (and other sarge kit)
-Combat Squads
-Chapter Tactics

Look up their price difference again.

Bharring wrote:
Guardians are OK, but not great. If they get the alpha against Marines, sure, they'll do a bit better than most units. They might even win the fight at equal points. But then, shouldn't that be true of just about anything unloading a 12" gun at it's optimal target?

Yes, a Serpent can give them a chance of getting that Alpha, but then you're spending over 200 points to kill only part of a Marine squad. As a suicide unit. Per point, less firepower than podded Marines. And far lower survivability.

If you let guardians walk up to those Marines (2+ turns in range of Boltguns), well, what would you expect? Same could be said for footslogging 3 CSM termies.

The rest of (non-wraith) footdar are MEQ prices for GEQ+ survivability and substantially lower range in exchange for higher firepower and mobility.

I think you'll find that all those low-S weapons people say are worthless will remove bucketloads of MEQ-priced footdar.

Shenanigany? Yes. But footdar pays for those shenanigans. I don't see it as cheese.

If you like those sniper rifles so much, why not SM Scouts? No bs4, but you get:
-S4 (not paper in melee)
-T4 (much more survivable)
-4+ (Most small arms are ap5)
-Grenades (can do much more than Rangers if charged)
-Access to a heavy weapon
-Access toMelts Bombs (and other sarge kit)
-Combat Squads
-Chapter Tactics

Look up their price difference again.

Uhh...cost less and come with better BS and stealth... they do the same job - better and for less than scouts. Really though I'm just pointing out the fact that a generally unused unit in the eldar codex is way better than a similar unit in several marine codex all while being cheaper.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

You can take the two most powerful units out of the book and you still have the most powerful book in the game. Footdar still dominates everything with bs 4 rending and ap2 all over the place.

If you're majorly losing to foot Eldar, something is wrong. They've got "roll lots of 6's" for AP2, on relatively short ranged guns on T3 5+ or T3 4+sv infantry, unless we're talking roughly Terminator priced Wraithguard.

Have you seen the price of rangers???? you could put 60 on the feild for under 700 points...pretty sure it would dominate.

Unlikely, particularly if you have any tanks, horde units, or even a modicum of terrain. If you're relying on footslogging heavy infantry, you might have a problem, but you'll face that problem against every army in the game.

Eldar are very powerful, but these things aren't what makes them spectacularly scary.

I'm def not losing to footdar because everyones playing serp spam anyways. Tons of super under pointed units in the codex though. Jet bikes, rangers are the ones that really stand out to me.

Unless my battle scribe is off, its 12ppm vs 11+1 ppm? Doesn't look like Rangers cost less to me...

4 of 5 Eldar rangers have bs4 instead of bs3. All still get precision on 6's, but a Ranger unit will get maybe one more hit every round or two, and it will never be precision.

Yes, they get stealth. Scouts can get it with Cloaks, but then they cost more.

Boltgun -> Rangers
Wound on a 3
No armor, so Stealth always

Boltgun -> Scout
Wound on 4
4+ or cover.

So:
Open:
(2/3)(5/6) vs(1/2)(1/2); (5/9) vs (1/4)
6+:
(2/3)(2/3) vs (1/2)(1/2); (4/9) vs (1/4)
5+
(2/3)(1/2) vs (1/2)(1/2); (1/3) vs (1/4)
4+
(2/3)(1/3) vs (1/2)(1/2); (2/9) vs (1/4)

Scouts are *much* more survivable, have a lot more options, and can charge some things. For the same cost.

Oh, and Scout on top of Infiltrate.

An extra non-precision hit less every round or two and stealth seems fair for being so much more fragile and less flexible.

 Toofast wrote:
How many threads are we going to have about "are eldar cheesy/OP?" We had about 10 on this forum in 2014, can we pick a new topic now?

The internet doesn't support independent thought.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Toofast wrote:
How many threads are we going to have about "are eldar cheesy/OP?" We had about 10 on this forum in 2014, can we pick a new topic now?

The internet doesn't support independent thought.

This topic is always an actual one until the Serpent's rules will be changed.

Said the eldar player.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Toofast wrote:
How many threads are we going to have about "are eldar cheesy/OP?" We had about 10 on this forum in 2014, can we pick a new topic now?

The internet doesn't support independent thought.

You're saying Eldar aren't over powered compared other dexes? I'd love to hear your explanation.

Makumba wrote:
Said the eldar player.

Said the Eldar player who selved his Eldar army as it appeared to be too powerful and enjoys playing Necrons competitively these days.

I typed too slow.

 Xenomancers wrote:

I'm def not losing to footdar because everyones playing serp spam anyways.

The majority of Eldar players have always played serpent spam even when Serpent Spam wasn't what it is today precisely because Footdar is so easy to engage and destroy.

Tons of super under pointed units in the codex though. Jet bikes, rangers are the ones that really stand out to me.

Jet bikes I'd agree (though I'd say most Biker units in general are undercosted, SM bikes as well), but Rangers? Ratlings also have Stealth, have the exact same weapon and BS, have the same "shoot+run" ability and are cheaper to boot, are they undercosted too? Because nobody thinks much of Ratlings, and there's not much that Rangers have over Ratlings in any practical speaking.

There are way to many people going on about how "this army is cheesy because I don't know how to fight against it, its made up of to strong units ect." and ill be honest all the negativity is getting rather annoying. The point is that EVERY army has something in it that is very strong (very rarely is anything "cheesy") and that it gives people fits, at this point we should be discussing ways to handle with/deal with said strong lists rather then just complaining about them. Now in regards to Eldar they are a very tough matchup for a lot of armies, thankfully several of my opponents are Eldar players so I have had to learn how to fight against them and going in with an understanding how to deal with the army has done wonders. I will agree they are a very strong army and definitely in my opinion the top tier army in the game, I however refuse to call them cheesy as there are ways to counter them.

Eldar are powerful, but it's the players that have the tendency to be cheesy.

But then again, any players that mindlessly spam certain units from ANY army are cheesy.

For instance, is my Eldar army cheesy, when it has a single Wave Serpent and a single Falcon for transport? I'm sorry, I play Saim-Hann and I need SOMETHING to carry the infantry that are not on jetbikes (or fast-moving, like Swooping Hawks), to keep up the theme of the army. If I could instead use something more like the DE Venom, I would use lots of those instead, but I can't be held accountable for GW suddenly making my 12-year old Wave Serpent crazy powerful.

I actually think the suddenly overpowered qualities of the Serpent is stupid, myself.

SGTPozy wrote:
All of the ones you mentioned; Blitz brigade, mass infiltrators and the spam.

Just out of pure interest, what army do you play and what's your regular list?

 gmaleron wrote:
There are way to many people going on about how "this army is cheesy because I don't know how to fight against it, its made up of to strong units ect." and ill be honest all the negativity is getting rather annoying. The point is that EVERY army has something in it that is very strong (very rarely is anything "cheesy") and that it gives people fits, at this point we should be discussing ways to handle with/deal with said strong lists rather then just complaining about them. Now in regards to Eldar they are a very tough matchup for a lot of armies, thankfully several of my opponents are Eldar players so I have had to learn how to fight against them and going in with an understanding how to deal with the army has done wonders. I will agree they are a very strong army and definitely in my opinion the top tier army in the game, I however refuse to call them cheesy as there are ways to counter them.

when you have Eldar players putting units away because they feel the unit is OP/Broken/Cheesy/whatever - then its patently obvious that that unit is a major problem in the game - which it is.

If GW fixed Wave Serpents - and there have been various threads on how to do so - there would be a lot less discussion - but as its not going to happen there will always be complaints that the unit is broken - because it is.