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On the note of the no up and no down (and I am in no way in favor of deploying on top of tanks, mind you), does that mean if I occupy the upper floor of a ruin that models can't walk underneath me?

levels do still exist though don't they?

they're listed in unit coherency (must stay within 6" vertically of a model on another level and also in assault phase?

 BlackTalos wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Plus, if you can deploy a model on top of a rhino, then neither unit could move...

I disagree. Where is that rule?
I have "cannot move through". Unless one of the Rhino's chimneys goes through the base of a model on top, he can move.
"move through" =/= "move under".

As for the models on top: moving over the Rhino never constitutes moving through it?

Because models only have an allowance to move through terrain.

The top of a rhino is not terrain so the model on top can not move.

Also you can only move one unit at a time, so moving the rhino would be breaking this rule as you would be moving two units at once, which is illegal.

 some bloke wrote:
those arguing that "Move over" and "Move under" isn't "move through", remember there are no levels any more, moving is just moving, over and under doesn't exist!

The previous rules for levels in ruins are completely irrelevant to whether or not a unit on top of another unit is occupying the same space.

Even when those rules did exist, they would have made no difference to the outcome of this discussion... because this discussion doesn't involve ruins.

IIRC there were previous editions where it stated you were not allowed to move onto vehicles, unless the vehicle was wrecked/destroyed.

This wording, or anything similar, I can no longer find in the current edition.

Its worth noting there is nothing stopping you from disembarking onto the top of a vehicle in the rules, and the diagram under disembarking actually includes the vehicle in the area you are allowed to place disembarked models. [would never play that way but its there..]

Vehicles are not terrain (nor are transports, or buildings that can be occupied), they are therefore not an eligible location whereon to place another model.

Vehicles that are wrecked (not exploded, as exploded vehicles are removed from the table) are treated as terrain; they used to be Dangerous Terrain, now they are merely Difficult Terrain.

Wow...

DCannon4Life wrote:
Vehicles are not terrain (nor are transports, or buildings that can be occupied), they are therefore not an eligible location whereon to place another model.

Vehicles that are wrecked (not exploded, as exploded vehicles are removed from the table) are treated as terrain; they used to be Dangerous Terrain, now they are merely Difficult Terrain.

unfortunately that is not the case.

Models have rules for moving through terrain,but models are not restricted to only moving through terrain.

In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance. Once a unit has completed all of its movement, you can select another unit and move that one, and so on, until you have moved all of the units you wish to move. Once you have started moving a unit, you must finish its move before you start to move another unit. Note that you don’t have to move all (or any) of your units – indeed, there are several tactical advantages to remaining stationary, as we’ll explain later in the rules. Once you’ve completed a unit’s move, you cannot go back and change it, so think carefully before giving the order to advance.

Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase. This represents most creatures moving at a reasonable pace but stopping several times to scan the surrounding landscape for enemies, communicate with their commanders, identify the best lines of advance and so on.

there's no rule that states models can only move through terrain, if that were the case models could not move on any part of the table that was not terrain, which obviously is not true.

blaktoof wrote:

Its worth noting there is nothing stopping you from disembarking onto the top of a vehicle in the rules, and the diagram under disembarking actually includes the vehicle in the area you are allowed to place disembarked models. [would never play that way but its there..]

It's also important to keep in mind the basic approach to what can and cannot be done in 40K: 40K is a permissive rule set, it gives permission (usually EXPRESS permission) to do certain things with the models/table/terrain. If the rules do not give you permission to do something, that is generally equivalent to forbidding it. So, there is something stopping you from disembarking onto the top of a vehicle--you don't have permission to. In fact, the description of how to disembark from a wrecked vehicle helps clarify: The embarked unit must FIRST complete disembarking and THEN the model becomes a wreck.

"...a Wrecked model is left in place, and is treated as a Citadel scenery model with the difficult terrain type" (BRB 76).
"The passengers must immediately disembark [from the Wrecked vehicle].... After this, the vehicle becomes a wreck" (BRB 82).

I agree this is a silly argument, but regarding permission:

Models generally have permission to deploy within 6" of a vehicle when disembarking, the vehicle itself is within 6" and there is no restriction to being placed onto the vehicle. Previous editions had such restrictions to prevent that, because there was general permission then just as now- but the restriction is no longer there.

The same is true for moving and models used to be counted as impassable terrain, now they are not. However models have general permission to move, and there is no actual rule restricting them from moving onto friendly models. They are obviously restricted to not moving onto enemy models as they cannot be within a certain distance, and we cannot make them float 1" above models in the air. Although we are not told we are not allowed to hold models in the air, technically you could move a model 1" above an enemy model and hold it perfectly still and be 1" away from the model. That's pretty silly. Most likely this counts as moving off the board and is not allowed.

blaktoof wrote:
I agree this is a silly argument, but regarding permission:

Models generally have permission to deploy within 6" of a vehicle when disembarking, the vehicle itself is within 6" and there is no restriction to being placed onto the vehicle. Previous editions had such restrictions to prevent that, because there was general permission then just as now- but the restriction is no longer there.

The same is true for moving and models used to be counted as impassable terrain, now they are not. However models have general permission to move, and there is no actual rule restricting them from moving onto friendly models. They are obviously restricted to not moving onto enemy models as they cannot be within a certain distance, and we cannot make them float 1" above models in the air. Although we are not told we are not allowed to hold models in the air, technically you could move a model 1" above an enemy model and hold it perfectly still and be 1" away from the model. That's pretty silly. Most likely this counts as moving off the board and is not allowed.

 Nilok wrote:
We are told Models cannot voluntarily move off the board.

We are also told all terrain "should" be Citadel scenery in the Battlefield Terrain section.

Can we find if the "board" is defined anywhere in the book anymore?

 Nilok wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
I don't think it ever was.

If the board was never defined in the book, then the original definition would be the long, thin, flat piece of wood or other hard material you are playing on. Thus the RAW would be that models can never move voluntarily off the surface you are playing on or the Citadel scenery models which have implicitly implied permission to have models move on and across them.

I don't think there is any implicate permission to move them on top of another Citadel non-scenery model.

 Nilok wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
That would stop you from moving across any non-difficult or -impassable terrain piece as well.

Incorrect.

Under Terrain Types it says "All of the Citadel scenery models have a terrain type. The rules for each terrain type are described below"
This tells us that every legal terrain has a terrain type, anything other is a house rule.

Under Terrain Types is Open Ground.

OPEN GROUND wrote:Open ground covers everything from dusty plains to rolling hills. Models in open ground are often said to be 'out in the open'. No additional rules are needed for open ground and, unless otherwise specified, special rules and abilities that affect terrain do not affect open ground. The surface of the Realm of the Battle Gameboard is considered open ground.

This tells us that even hills are considered to have a terrain type and that type is open ground.

Buildings, Ruins, Battlefield Debris, Difficult Terrain, Dangerous Terrain, Impassable Terrain, and Battlements are also covered here. If they are not covered here and do not fit into the groups provided, or do not have their own self contained rules, then they are a house ruled terrain.

We are told Models can never voluntarily leave the board, the board is the play surface, only Citadel scenery models have Terrain Types that grant permission to have models on them other than the board and are the exception.

For Disembarking we are told that we need to first place the model in base contact with an Access Point, then they make a normal move within 6" of the Access Point it disembarked from. By placing a model on top of the vechile that is not wrecked and counted as a Citadel scenery model, you are violating the restriction that models cannot voluntarily move off the board.

so does this mean if a FLGS is using non citadel scenery your not allowed to move into it by the RAW?

blaktoof wrote:
so does this mean if a FLGS is using non citadel scenery your not allowed to move into it by the RAW?

 Nilok wrote:

Under Terrain Types it says "All of the Citadel scenery models have a terrain type. The rules for each terrain type are described below"
This tells us that every legal terrain has a terrain type, anything other is a house rule.

...

Buildings, Ruins, Battlefield Debris, Difficult Terrain, Dangerous Terrain, Impassable Terrain, and Battlements are also covered here. If they are not covered here and do not fit into the groups provided, or do not have their own self contained rules, then they are a house ruled terrain.

If your going to argue with a FLGS or TO about their rules, your probably not going to be playing there.
It's like arguing with a DM/GM about rules they set, "Rocks Fall, You Die".
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RocksFallEveryoneDies

 Nilok wrote:
If your going to argue with a FLGS or TO about their rules, your probably not going to be playing there.
It's like arguing with a DM/GM about rules they set, "Rocks Fall, You Die".
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RocksFallEveryoneDies

But...I have Improved Evasion, a high Reflex and rolled nat 20...I call shenanigans.

"Rocks fall, the planet EXPLODES!"

 Nilok wrote:
"Rok fall, planet EXPLODES!"

Fixed that for you. Though you'll also have some very unhappy Orks.

 Nilok wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
so does this mean if a FLGS is using non citadel scenery your not allowed to move into it by the RAW?

 Nilok wrote:

Under Terrain Types it says "All of the Citadel scenery models have a terrain type. The rules for each terrain type are described below"
This tells us that every legal terrain has a terrain type, anything other is a house rule.

...

Buildings, Ruins, Battlefield Debris, Difficult Terrain, Dangerous Terrain, Impassable Terrain, and Battlements are also covered here. If they are not covered here and do not fit into the groups provided, or do not have their own self contained rules, then they are a house ruled terrain.

If your going to argue with a FLGS or TO about their rules, your probably not going to be playing there.
It's like arguing with a DM/GM about rules they set, "Rocks Fall, You Die".
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RocksFallEveryoneDies

LOL

would never even bring it up, just find it funny how they injected "citadel" in front of a lot of things in the rulebook.

I think Chapter House Studios scarred them a bit.

I don't know if this is mentioned, but this is great for nids. Just pile up the gaunts high enough so you can't get LoS towards the big stuff behind it and march it up.

blaktoof wrote:
Models have rules for moving through terrain,but models are not restricted to only moving through terrain

That is not how a permissive ruleset works.

You need an allowance to do anything in the game.

You have allowances for models to move through terrain.

Cite the allowance for a model that is on top of a rhino, to move, or one that is not on top to move onto said vehicle.

 Gorgrimm wrote:
Aaaaaaaaand this is why I don't play in gaming clubs anymore. Interpretation of rules that just seem wack-a-doodle.

Just seems silly. Like how about put the rhino on top of a landraider, then a dread on the rhino, then balance some devs on the dread. Makes sense.

This is my winning strategy in Battleship.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Also you can only move one unit at a time, so moving the rhino would be breaking this rule as you would be moving two units at once, which is illegal.

Have you read the WMS rule? If you move the Rhino, what happens to the model on top?

"If you delicately balance it in place, (On the Rhino) (...)."
Move Rhino: Captain model "is very likely to fall"....
"In cases like this, we find it is perfectly acceptable to leave the model in a safer position, as long as both players have agreed and know its ‘actual’ location." (On the Rhino, although the Rhino isn't there anymore...)

For moving the Rhino itself:

 insaniak wrote:

 some bloke wrote:
those arguing that "Move over" and "Move under" isn't "move through", remember there are no levels any more, moving is just moving, over and under doesn't exist!

The previous rules for levels in ruins are completely irrelevant to whether or not a unit on top of another unit is occupying the same space.

Even when those rules did exist, they would have made no difference to the outcome of this discussion... because this discussion doesn't involve ruins.

 DeathReaper wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Models have rules for moving through terrain,but models are not restricted to only moving through terrain

That is not how a permissive ruleset works.

You need an allowance to do anything in the game.

You have allowances for models to move through terrain.

Cite the allowance for a model that is on top of a rhino, to move, or one that is not on top to move onto said vehicle.

The rule we have is this:
"A model (...) can never move or pivot (see below) through another model (friend or foe) at any time. To move past, they must go around."
This means that a model NOT on top of a Rhino is not allowed to move on top of it.
However if the model is already on top and begins its move, where is the restriction that it cannot move 6" Forward (hopping down the Rhino)?

I mean if you want the specific permission:
"Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase"

So your saying you can't find any explicit or implicit permission to be on top of a Rhino, vehicle, or any other non-Citadel scenery model.

 Nilok wrote:
So your saying you can't find any explicit or implicit permission to be on top of a Rhino, vehicle, or any other non-Citadel scenery model.

No, that was covered in the first page. You deploy per this rule:
"models must either deploy within their deployment zone, or be held back in Reserve."

Space Marine Captain on top of a Rhino is wholly "within his deployment zone". RaW

Do i ever play that way or even allow it in games? Of course not.

The problem with that argument is it's the same as saying "it doesn't tell me I can't". By lacking the permission to do something, it automatically counts as restricted.

The permissions we have in this argument are, we can deploy in our deployment zone, we can have models on the board, and we can have models on Citadel scenery models. We lack the permission to have models on non-Citadel scenery models.

Without the permission, explicitly or even implicitly, to have models on non-Citadel scenery models, it is restricted.

I know we agree this shouldn't be done in a normal game, I just disagree on the method you are arriving at that conclusion since it looks like the rules already prevent it.

The old discussion, and why we are where we are: (could do with trimming, so sorry for that)

 BlackTalos wrote:
"Some pieces of scenery are called fortifications. These can be included in a player’s army or used as pieces of ‘neutral’ scenery controlled by neither side. If a fortification is taken as part of an army, then it is set up with the rest of the units in the army using the same deployment rules as the other models. If you decide to use a fortification as a piece of neutral scenery, then it is set up during this step. Each fortification has a fortification datasheet that describes how it is used in the game."

Is the Skyshield purchased as a Fortification for your army?
Is the Void Shield Generator purchased as a Fortification for your army?
Do they both have a "fortification datasheet"?

You cannot deploy a Void Shield Generator on top of a Skyshield Landing Platform because you cannot deploy a Space Marine Commander on top of a Rhino. Still applies.

Looking through the rules, maybe someone can enlighten me as to why, but I see no restriction in Deploying a Space Marine Commander on top of a Rhino.

The only rules are about "moving through" during the movement phase. I think 6th Edition had something about "being on table" and i cannot find it it the 7th Book.

 insaniak wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
You cannot deploy a Void Shield Generator on top of a Skyshield Landing Platform because you cannot deploy a Space Marine Commander on top of a Rhino. Still applies.

By that logic, you wouldn't be able to deploy the Space Marine Commander on the Skyshield either...

Looking through the rules, maybe someone can enlighten me as to why, but I see no restriction in Deploying a Space Marine Commander on top of a Rhino.

No, there is no rule against this in the current edition. The rule that previously stopped it was the one that treated other models as impassable terrain. That rule no longer exists.

I would have argued that you can't put terrain within 3 inches of each other, but that rule seems to have been removed as well.

We are also told that Fortifications are deployed just like the rest of your army like you said.

The other thing is that Citadel scenery model placement must be agreeable by both players, the way the sentence reads, it refers to non-owned terrain, though I can see that being argued both ways since Fortifications are Citadel scenery models.

There is permission to have a Void Shield Generator on top of a Sky Shield Landing Pad, and I can't find the restriction that it can't since the old restriction has been removed. Though the other player could argue that it isn't agreeable and ask you to remove it.

There are no rules to prevent you from placing a Space Marine on a Rhino, but there also no rule to permit it. Without any permission to put the Space Marine on the Rhino, it doesn't matter if there aren't any restrictions.

Can you find any permission to have a model on top of a non-Citadel scenery model?

 Nilok wrote:
There is permission to have a Void Shield Generator on top of a Sky Shield Landing Pad, and I can't find the restriction that it can't since the old restriction has been removed. Though the other player could argue that it isn't agreeable and ask you to remove it.

Where are you finding this permission?

It is the same permission / reasoning to put a Void Shield Generator on top of a Sky Shield Landing Pad as a Commander on a Rhino.

I can understand your point that there is no permission "to have a model on top of a non-Citadel scenery model". But then how do you use the Skyshield? Can you find the BrB definition of "Open Ground"?

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Nilok wrote:
There is permission to have a Void Shield Generator on top of a Sky Shield Landing Pad, and I can't find the restriction that it can't since the old restriction has been removed. Though the other player could argue that it isn't agreeable and ask you to remove it.

Where are you finding this permission?

It is the same permission / reasoning to put a Void Shield Generator on top of a Sky Shield Landing Pad as a Commander on a Rhino.

I can understand your point that there is no permission "to have a model on top of a non-Citadel scenery model". But then how do you use the Skyshield? Can you find the BrB definition of "Open Ground"?

deploying on a fortification is different to deploying on a vehicle. the skyshield landing pad is described as being open ground on top, and other units can be deployed on there - other fortifications are other units, so can be deployed on there.

there is, however, nothing stating you can deploy, move onto, or in any way result-in-being on top of another of your own models.

if we're going to take the deployment rules out of context, then why not:

"2: The side deploying first must set up all the units in their army."

note the word "Must". that's not an option, sorry, you get no reserves, drop pods start on the table, and so do my fliers, as they must be set up.

in essence, friendly models are treated as impassable terrain all game, correct? You can't deploy in impassable terrain.

rules as intended are oh, so clear. heck, being a permissive ruleset, it doesn't say you can, so you can't. it says you can deploy in fortifications and vehicles, but fails to mention "on".

RAW: No permission to do so.
RAI: no permission to do so.
HIWPI: Anyone else want to play me? anyone at all?

 Nilok wrote:
There are no rules to prevent you from placing a Space Marine on a Rhino, but there also no rule to permit it.

Sure there is. You're told to place models in your deployment zone. So long as the rhino is in your deployment zone, and barring any rule to the contrary, then placing the marine on top of the rhino satisfies that criteria.