What mark should I give my Warp Talons?

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**Sir Arun**

I'm planning to field a small 5 man unit of Warp Talons as entourage for my Chaos Lord

I'm thinking of giving my Chaos Lord a Jump pack, Sigil of Corruption + Mark of Tzeentch.

He will be placed at the forefront of the squad and soak low AP wounds with his 3++ inv. save while passing on regular wounds to his buddies with a 2+ look out sir.

As such, do you think MoN is the best as it makes the whole squad T5 and rule of majority toughness would make the Lord T5 as well?

Or should I spend less points and give them a MoS so they can strike before marines in cc?

**changemod**

I'd go straight for Tzeentch, lets them weather the heavy firepower likely to be leveled at the elite bodyguard of a Warlord better than T5 would... Though this is admittedly only in the vacuum situation of them getting to be in their element.

I5 is the best defensive stat they could ever hope for once they actually get into melee, but not on the way over.

**swcorwyn**

If the lord has mark of tzeentch then the talons have to take mark of tzeentch as well. You cannot mix marks between attached character and squad.

**AnomanderRake**

I'm a big fan of Tzeentch in general but Tzeentch and Nurgle both plug Warp Talons' biggest hole (durability).

**Sir Arun**

I could, of course, also play them as a reactionary unit - keep a small 5 man squad behind LoS near my frontlines, and any non 2+ sv enemy willing to get too close would be ambushed by 12" + 2D6". In that case MoS would work well for a crippling alpha strike

**changerofways**

I would not field them, but if I did, I would give them MoN, because it is the most universally useful. There are lots of units with I5 and higher Initiative, and initiative doesn't matter when getting shot at. Toughness is something that is always important, though, because everything gets shot. That's why this is CSM: Nurgle. Very few weapons that are being shot at your warp talons will be T7, or in other words wound on a 2+ with MoN or otherwise.

**Khaine's Wrath**

I'd give them the Mark of Shelf and leave them there. You're probably better off fielding a single cultist. Terrible unit.

**Sir Arun**

Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Terrible unit.

Because they dont have assault grenades? A lot of cc-oriented units don't have them. If you add the cost of two lightning claws to the base cost of an assault marine/raptor, you save quite a lot of points for fielding warp talons compared to e.g. death company or chosen armed that way who pay out of the nose for those weapons. And even lightning claw termies have the disadvantage of being slower, not having any assault grenades either, and not being able to sweep.

**changemod**

Sir Arun wrote:
Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Terrible unit.

Because they dont have assault grenades? A lot of cc-oriented units don't have them. If you add the cost of two lightning claws to the base cost of an assault marine/raptor, you save quite a lot of points for fielding warp talons compared to e.g. death company or chosen armed that way who pay out of the nose for those weapons. And even lightning claw termies have the disadvantage of being slower, not having any assault grenades either, and not being able to sweep.

Yeah, it's not a bad unit, just one that gets a bad rap for having a niche that's easier to fill elsewhere in the codex.

Can't imagine the useless deep strike power helped it's reputation either.

**Khaine's Wrath**

It's a fast choice.... And for basically the same points you can take a helldrake.

**GoliothOnline**

Generally, its accepted that Warp Talons are pretty awful simply due to their Deep Strike + Blind ruling pretty much forcing you to either use them at their fullest potential, potentially destroying the already overly expensive unit, or gimping them as you try to move them around the board and make use of their Lightning Claws with almost 0 defensive capabilities on their end.

That all being established, the 3 main marks benefit them equally, however I would personally vote for Slaanesh. 4++ from Tzeentch is nice against high strength large blasts or single shot weapons, T5 helps a nice amount from the plethora of str 4 and str 5 weapons out there these days. Slaanesh, however, ensures they do their job of Killing 3+ MEQ models. Almost too well.

A Warp Talon has 2 Lightning Claws, Base Attacks 2. That means these things have 4 attacks on the charge, at initiative 5 they are striking first against most MEQ armies that aren't being guarded by a Chapter Master or named Character. With that I5 boost they do their job and make their points back in an almost guaranteed assault phase, that is, if you CAN get into assault.

**Sir Arun**

With 12" movement it should be pretty easy to hide them behind LoS. As long as they arent the only unit you got in the enemy's deployment zone, they should be relatively safe. And due to their attacks even a small unit of 5 can work well.

To the guy that brought up the Heldrake comparison - Heldrakes have the disadvantage of being a huge fire magnet and also giving you the TFG status

**Munga**

Talons need support to get where they need to be. If they wind up on the open table, they're done. So bounce them from cover to cover, and use a sorceror to buff them. How you kit them out is going to be based on your local metagame. If you fight a lot of marines, go for slaanesh. Your mileage may vary with other marks against varying types of xenos.

**JohnHwangDD**

Personally, I'm happier with MoS Assault Marines with a PW on the VS. Much cheaper, and about as points efficient against MEQs. I5 is huge against I4 MEQs.

**koooaei**

I'm not sure about slaanesh for warp talons. They have no grenades, thus simply putting a foot in the wood will make them all ini1 regardless. If you're fighting tacticals, get ready to put lots of feet in the woods to get to them.

**Khaine's Wrath**

Sir Arun wrote:
With 12" movement it should be pretty easy to hide them behind LoS. As long as they arent the only unit you got in the enemy's deployment zone, they should be relatively safe. And due to their attacks even a small unit of 5 can work well.

To the guy that brought up the Heldrake comparison - Heldrakes have the disadvantage of being a huge fire magnet and also giving you the TFG status

Why? Because the helldrake is a good unit? They're no where near as OP as they used to be. They're a much more balanced rounded unit now. And with 7th and the amount of AA that's about they're not the invincible flier they used to be. Taking one makes you TFG no more than an eldar player taking a serpent or two, or a tau player taking a riptide....are we all supposed to stop taking each respective codex's good units just because they're good? The CSM book got a pretty bum deal over all. And it's only just had the buff of IA13 which not everyone can afford.

All I'm saying is, warp talons are a fast attack choice designed to kill MEQ. Look at their Base cost. Then add the cost of ANY mark. Then look at the cost of a bale drake. One is significantly better at its job than the other. And the points are pretty much exactly the same. The turkeys baleflamer cares not for marines in cover.

**Filch**

Proxy them as raptors with melta guns.

**BoomWolf**

I must say, I agree with wrath.

Its not that the talons are all that bad, but that the drake just being so much better at the same job-while being better at other jobs too (he can serve as pitch AA)

**Sir Arun**

Well if we roll that way, why bother taking a Drake in the first place if you can give any mobile HQ the Burning Brand of Skalathrax for a fraction of the points cost?

A DP with wings for example could easily carry that and while it does usually only wound on a 4+ instead of a 2+, it's a hell of a lot cheaper

**CrownAxe**

Sir Arun wrote:
Well if we roll that way, why bother taking a Drake in the first place if you can give any mobile HQ the Burning Brand of Skalathrax for a fraction of the points cost?

A DP with wings for example could easily carry that and while it does usually only wound on a 4+ instead of a 2+, it's a hell of a lot cheaper

Because S4 and DPs are very easy to kill and ends up being more expensive then a drake since you have to buy it a mark and wings so is 60 more points then a drake.

**Khaine's Wrath**

Hell of a lot cheaper? A DP with no mark with wings is 185 points. You HAVE to take a mark of some kind, and I haven't even paid for the burning brand yet. So you're talking over 200 points.... A drake is 170 points. So I'm not sure how on earth you think it's cheaper? On top of which, if you're staying bound you only have 2 hq but you have 3 fast attacks. And with cheap Lords, sorcerers and daemon Princes all competing for HQ slots, and helldrakes, competing for a fast slot whereby only really nurgle bikers and spawn are worth taking it seems like not only a cheaper choice, but a more logical choice.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also a 1/2 chance of wounding is a huge difference to a 5/6 chance to wound.

**koooaei**

Really depends on what you think they're supposed to do.

I'd probably go with MoN for versatility as this way you can deepstrike them to hope to get blind off and hope for at least a couple of them surviving the enemy shooting phase. If you don't DS them in the midst of the foes, it's pretty likely they're gona wipe out a backfield scoring unit. t5 matters in this case. Also helpful when you jump around the field too. It's just generally more useful for what they're capable of - killing infantry/bikes/beasts that are not outstanding in mellee.

MoK is a valid option too, however, it's not better than MoN in the long run as you do get an extra attack per model but you might end up with fewer models in the first place without t5.

MoS is a no go cause of no assault nades.

MoT is probably a good option if you're planning to pick on LC devastators or other backfield heavy support infantry with ap3+ guns.

Unmarked to save points.

**Green is Best!**

I love how someone asks which mark to put and the answer is "THEY ARE TERRIBLE! NEVER USE THEM."

OK. We get it. Warp Talons aren't the best unit. But, the OP wants to figure out how to run them.

As previously stated, if you are running as an entourage for your lord, they need to have MoT to join together.

My personal preference would be for Slaanesh. However, I am biased towards that particular god. While I recognize Nurgle's usefulness, I just don't like my army to be slimy and gross.

Now, to offset the assault grenades problems, wouldn't the attached lord mitigate this?

**CrownAxe**

Green is Best! wrote:
Now, to offset the assault grenades problems, wouldn't the attached lord mitigate this?

No, grenade bonuses don't confer to the rest of the unit.

You could take the Skull Cannon from the Daemon codex since it confers the assault bonus to daemons that assault the unit that got hit by the cannon.

**BoomWolf**

If we go the route of "but I gonna use them anyway, might as well you them good", slaanesh is actually the last I'd pick for them.

Tzentch also does not seem very good. costs quite a bit, and offers no defense against standard fire. classic 1Ksons issue.

Nurgle for general durability, khorne for asking "but will it blend?", or just unmarked to keep it budget as you can.

**Green is Best!**

You would pick Slaanesh over Khorne? I always found striking first to be a benefit over an additional attack. But that is just me.

**Sir Arun**

Come to think of it, an I6 Chaos Lord due to the MoS with murder sword would fare pretty well in challenges I think. Pretty good chance of insta-gibbing most enemy leaders that arent EW

**Drasius**

Dieing to bolter fire? MoN

Dieing to Plasma/Krak/Lascannons? MoT

Alternately, if you're taking Crimson Slaughter, get your tanking lord the 2+ armour and a bike to tank bolter shots and LoS the AP2 stuff onto your expensive bodyguards with MoT. Job's a goodun' boss.

**changemod**

There's a very nice Tzeentch Lord build in Crimson Slaughter:

Sword of the Relentless, Daemonheart, Slaugherer's Horns, Disk of Tzeentch, Mark of Tzeentch, Sigil of Corruption.

You get a T5 2+/3++ Jetbike Lord with IWND and what quickly builds to an absurd number of high strength AP 2 attacks on the charge, and the price tag seems decent to my eye.

**lustigjh**

Speaking from purely theoretical standpoint (haven't used Talons myself):

Khorne: +1 A in first round of combat, +2 if charging. Can take Furious Charge if they bring a banner. These only matter for the first round of combat and only if you didn't make a disordered charge. This requires you to make it to combat.

Tzeentch: +1 invuln. When rolling invuln saves, this mark only matters if you roll a 4 (5 & 6 would already be saves), so it has a 1/6 chance of being useful. This also only matters when your armor is beaten so the one case where it'd be most beneficial (mass shooting attacks, gun line style) doesn't apply (massed shooting is generally not AP3).

Nurgle: +1 T. When your opponent rolls to wound, it has the same effect as above; a 1/6 chance that it matters. This doesn't apply against S 7+ or poisoned weapons.

Slaanesh: +1 I. Allows you to strike first against most basic units unless they're in difficult terrain. Also has a 1/6 chance of giving you a sweeping advance when you'd otherwise fail.

Considering that you're using them to escort your Lord into CC, I'd lean for Khorne. The mobility of jump packs will be how you stay alive and get yourself charges. I5 is a close second but I've never been worried about a squad of tac marines doing much in CC. The extra attacks will help you wipe them out first round...

...actually, now that I think of it, go with Slaanesh. The best outcome is to leave 1-2 marines/etc alive so you're locked in combat and finish the squad on their turn. Khorne has more risk of wiping the whole squad round 1, leaving you in the open. Slaanesh will minimize your CC retaliation and help you catch any escapees.

Raptors would be cheaper and give you the same ablative wounds (you're using your Lord's invuln anyway) but you'd lose most of your AP3. You would gain access to special weapons, though, and your Lord can probably finish off armor 3 once he's out of any challenges.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

swcorwyn wrote:
If the lord has mark of tzeentch then the talons have to take mark of tzeentch as well. You cannot mix marks between attached character and squad.

Does that apply to CSM? I thought that restriction came from Daemonic Instability.