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As the title says. What's the best way to utilize a Vindicare in my army? Love the fluff, love the crunch, just need to figure out a way to keep that 150 points from getting disintegrated before he gets to do anything. I plan on running Knights and Sisters, so I may have the issue of not having enough points for MSU to screen for him. Tips?

Infiltrate him in a way that he can shoot while not getting shot back or in any actual danger.

Use him to strip HP or just deal with special weapons.

Dont actual expect him to make his points back.

Stick him in a bastion on a board with few LOS blockers, with another squad on the battlements. Or use him in an army with high mobility and close combat lethality, so your opponent has to weigh his choice of target carefully.

 Desubot wrote:
Infiltrate him in a way that he can shoot while not getting shot back or in any actual danger.

Use him to strip HP or just deal with special weapons.

Dont actual expect him to make his points back.

Yeah, I kind of figured he'd be a high target priority, and making back 150 points might be tough. That being said, by being able to single out special weapons and characters, I might be able to nullify some otherwise significant threats.

Even with infiltration, I'm not sure how I'm going to keep him out of the line of fire. The average board isn't that big, and while his range is enough to shoot the guys on the next table over, I don't see a good way to keep him that far back.

he has a 72" range shots. im sure you can hit something.

kodi wrote:
Stick him in a bastion on a board with few LOS blockers, with another squad on the battlements. Or use him in an army with high mobility and close combat lethality, so your opponent has to weigh his choice of target carefully.

I didn't think about fortifications, I should consider that. Like I said, I plan on running him with a few Knights, so perhaps that will draw the fire that might otherwise head his direction. If they pour their shots into him, that's just another turn my knights can go stomp on everyone.

Turbo Penetrator shots into buffing characters or big important looking vehicles can be risky, but can earn his points back right there and you get up to six attempts. Better if it works earlier, of course.

With a 3+ cover save, enough reach to hit anywhere he can see on a regular board and higher priority targets elsewhere, he should last long enough to do at least something.

Oh, and if you have an Aegis Defence Line? Park him at the quad gun. Four rerollable 2+ interceptor shots that ignore cover will straight up butcher a lot of flyers.

Blob guard will be really terrified of him, since they rely on fragile IC's with unit-wide special rules. If you snipe two priests, you've indirectly "made your points back".

Put him in a bunker with void shield and barricades in front (4+ cover save, Av 12 then Av 14), put an anti assault squad on the roof and park it anywhere you like.

Also, manning the quad gun is a top tip

kodi wrote:
Blob guard will be really terrified of him, since they rely on fragile IC's with unit-wide special rules. If you snipe two priests, you've indirectly "made your points back".

If you snipe out 2 priests in less than 8 turns you're rolling above average.

Remember, enemy ICs with an invuln saves that are part of a squad are not great targets for him despite what the fluff would have you believe. The enemy gets a 4+ LOS! roll and you have to roll a 4+ to wound. You have just under 25% chance of stripping a wound from an IC with an invuln save.

Your odds go way up taking out characters who are part of the units and not independent (LOS! goes to 6+) or those that lack an invuln save. (You can use ammo that makes it easier to wound.)

And of course, if you just want to take out a random dude with a power fist, you've got > 80% of taking that guy out. He's most likely to make up his points sniping out special guys who aren't characters or stripping that last hull point from that vehicle that's just out of range of all your other things that haven't fired yet. (Or potentially stunning it so it can't fire at a key moment.)

If you shoot at the enemy warlord, you will likely be disappointed. If you cripple key vehicles/squads by taking out special weapons, apothecaries, other buffs then he will have been worth it.

You're right, I momentarily forgot that priests are IC's.

I think the vindicare is pretty overpriced and always has been for what he does, but he sure is cool. Right now the culexus is probably the best assassin I'd say, since he's both immensely survivable far more versatile than his supposed niche would have one believe.

Mavnas wrote:

kodi wrote:
Blob guard will be really terrified of him, since they rely on fragile IC's with unit-wide special rules. If you snipe two priests, you've indirectly "made your points back".

If you snipe out 2 priests in less than 8 turns you're rolling above average.

Remember, enemy ICs with an invuln saves that are part of a squad are not great targets for him despite what the fluff would have you believe. The enemy gets a 4+ LOS! roll and you have to roll a 4+ to wound. You have just under 25% chance of stripping a wound from an IC with an invuln save.

Your odds go way up taking out characters who are part of the units and not independent (LOS! goes to 6+) or those that lack an invuln save. (You can use ammo that makes it easier to wound.)

And of course, if you just want to take out a random dude with a power fist, you've got > 80% of taking that guy out. He's most likely to make up his points sniping out special guys who aren't characters or stripping that last hull point from that vehicle that's just out of range of all your other things that haven't fired yet. (Or potentially stunning it so it can't fire at a key moment.)

If you shoot at the enemy warlord, you will likely be disappointed. If you cripple key vehicles/squads by taking out special weapons, apothecaries, other buffs then he will have been worth it.

True that their LOS roll only drops to 4+ (though thats still better than the 2+ they normally get), but invulnerabls saves dont help them - the vindicare shot ignores invulnerable saves and cover saves. The LOS is all the character gets. (If im reading the rules correctly)

Niiru wrote:
True that their LOS roll only drops to 4+ (though thats still better than the 2+ they normally get), but invulnerabls saves dont help them - the vindicare shot ignores invulnerable saves and cover saves. The LOS is all the character gets. (If im reading the rules correctly)

While that is true that their LOS rolls become +2 difficulty, their inv. save isn't necessarily negated. The Vindicare has to use Shield-Breaker rounds to ignore inv, and those only wound on a 4+. Sure that's not terrible, but a 50/50 shot is a bit of a gamble in your 150 point model. Whereas the Hellfire rounds always wound on a 2+, and with his BS of 8, that's a nearly guaranteed wound on someone without an invulnerable save. I would definitely use Shield-Breaker rounds in a pinch, but 50/50 is a bit more than I'd like to gamble on model that's 150 points and will probably only fire 6 times throughout a game.

 SweaterKittens wrote:

Niiru wrote:
True that their LOS roll only drops to 4+ (though thats still better than the 2+ they normally get), but invulnerabls saves dont help them - the vindicare shot ignores invulnerable saves and cover saves. The LOS is all the character gets. (If im reading the rules correctly)

While that is true that their LOS rolls become +2 difficulty, their inv. save isn't necessarily negated. The Vindicare has to use Shield-Breaker rounds to ignore inv, and those only wound on a 4+. Sure that's not terrible, but a 50/50 shot is a bit of a gamble in your 150 point model. Whereas the Hellfire rounds always wound on a 2+, and with his BS of 8, that's a nearly guaranteed wound on someone without an invulnerable save. I would definitely use Shield-Breaker rounds in a pinch, but 50/50 is a bit more than I'd like to gamble on model that's 150 points and will probably only fire 6 times throughout a game.

I use Turbo Penetrator rounds on characters rather than shield breaker. Let them try their 5++, you can do more damage if it fails.

As for characters with a better than 5++... Yeah, I'd probably aim somewhere else first.

Whatever board you play on should have some 4+ cover. With his stealth special rule, that gives him a 3+ cover save.

If that's not good enough, ally in some Grey Knights to help your SoB by taking a techpriest. Use his bolster defenses rule to give a +1 cover save to a particular ruins for a 2+ cover save. If that's not good enough, hell, IDK what is.

At 4++ you might as well take the Turbo-penetrator.
It has a 33% chance to cause less wounds, 33% for the same amount and 33% to cause more wounds than Shieldbreaker.

At 5++ both shield Breaker and Hellfire math out better.

Inv Save None 6++ 5++ 4++ 3++
Shield 0,23 0,23 0,23 0,23 0,23
Turbo-1 0,23 0,19 0,15 0,12 0,08
Turbo-2 0,46 0,38 0,30 0,23 0,15
Turbo-3 0,69 0,57 0,46 0,35 0,23
Hellfire 0,38 0,32 0,25 0,19 0,13

This are the numbers I came up with, going from no Inv to 3++
And I counted this for IC's with a 4+ LOS!

The best my Vindicare has done this edition was keep a Vindicator stunned for two turns and kill a single special weapon. So far never made is points back.

The worst vindi for me was missing 3 turns of shooting... serously 2+4+ and cant shoot for gak

 FinkleLord wrote:
The best my Vindicare has done this edition was keep a Vindicator stunned for two turns and kill a single special weapon. So far never made is points back.

I don't think they ever directly make their points back.
But what do you mean with stunned? Did you prevent it from destroying 200 points of you?
In that case I would argue that he indirectly made his points back.

I posted this awhile back in response to a similar thread. We used Vindicares extensively at my FLGS, and thought they were good. They do tend to die on turn 1, but their holistic effect on the game is worthwhile.

In regards to making points back:

I converted my Vindicare as an elite Deathmark, since I had a Culexus from an old Pariah model anyway and thought he'd make for a cool model and more use out of the assassin dataslate. As such, I've actually only used him twice.

First time I used him: Three rounds spent popping one power armoured Grey Knight per turn because most of the army was Librarian/Paladin units that had rolled invisibility on both units. Turn four, one of the Librarians failed his invisibility roll and got turbo-penetrated to death. Turn five, the enemy Stormraven dropped to secure an objective and... Turbo penetrator round that not only made it explode, but also scattered the explosion onto the other invisible paladin squad and killed one of them.

Second Time I used him: Turn two, he sniped out a Cadre Fireblade, rendering his unit a lot weaker. Turn five he shot the last two wounds off Commander Farsight at almost point blank range with his pistol.

Have I been statistically way above the curve with him? Yes, absolutely. My point is though, if you aim big with him it's pretty awesome when it pays off.

Great actions!
To me that Librarian-example is exactly the way I would use it: You won't kill his points, but you cannot set a price on preventing Invisibility.

You wouldn't happen to have a picture of your conversion?
I already have the four Assassins for my Blood Angel-army and I am now planning to make some models of my own to get four "Necron"-assassins.

HOw effective against Bargelords? Str 10 AP 2 ignores cover sounds like a choice to make them sweat...

Kholzerino wrote:
HOw effective against Bargelords? Str 10 AP 2 ignores cover sounds like a choice to make them sweat...

Its st10 against vehicles..... technically since it is a duel profile it is both still a vehicle and a T model....... no clue what its supposed to do but still needa get through a 3++ invul.

"IIRC it doesn't state it is st10 for the purposes of pen, its just resolved as st10 for vehicles."

Kangodo wrote:
You wouldn't happen to have a picture of your conversion?

http://40.media.tumblr.com/c2a9f8149bdb72079eb87ef61be15462/tumblr_ng35dd8rYK1szwy50o1_1280.jpg

Here you go, only basecoated at the moment.

As you can see, he's basically a Praetorian with a Deathmark head, a Synaptic Disintegrator modified to a one handed grip and a bayonet to represent the close combat weapon.

Put him in an Aquila Strongpoint. I used him in a Krakstormed Fortress of Redemption and it was less than sporting, but it gets better with StrD.

The idea was using the Vindicaire's BS to reduce the potential scatter of the blasts, then use Deadshot to allocate all wounds to the models that I wanted to kill. being able to allocate multiple Instant Death to the same model is entertaining. Of course, determining the str of the wounds allocated under an apocalyptic blast would require some discussion before the game.

 carldooley wrote:
Put him in an Aquila Strongpoint. I used him in a Krakstormed Fortress of Redemption and it was less than sporting, but it gets better with StrD.

The idea was using the Vindicaire's BS to reduce the potential scatter of the blasts, then use Deadshot to allocate all wounds to the models that I wanted to kill. being able to allocate multiple Instant Death to the same model is entertaining. Of course, determining the str of the wounds allocated under an apocalyptic blast would require some discussion before the game.

That's a really solid idea. I've also been suggested to use a Bastion - Both ideas are really good, but it's the extra points I'm concerned about. People have mentioned issues in him making his points back, and shelling out 100 or more extra points just to make sure he doesn't get aced is just going to make that harder. In an apocalypse or super high point count game, I could do it, and bunker him up with some Retributors, but it'd be a hard sell for a 1250-1850 pt game. Especially since my primary detachment is Knights, and 100 extra points could mean the difference between another Knight Errant, or Gerantius, destroyer of men. Or a Cerastus Acheron.

 SweaterKittens wrote:
That's a really solid idea. I've also been suggested to use a Bastion - Both ideas are really good, but it's the extra points I'm concerned about. People have mentioned issues in him making his points back, and shelling out 100 or more extra points just to make sure he doesn't get aced is just going to make that harder. In an apocalypse or super high point count game, I could do it, and bunker him up with some Retributors, but it'd be a hard sell for a 1250-1850 pt game. Especially since my primary detachment is Knights, and 100 extra points could mean the difference between another Knight Errant, or Gerantius, destroyer of men. Or a Cerastus Acheron.

go for the Acheron. Sorry, but hellstorm isn't seen enough.

 carldooley wrote:

 SweaterKittens wrote:
That's a really solid idea. I've also been suggested to use a Bastion - Both ideas are really good, but it's the extra points I'm concerned about. People have mentioned issues in him making his points back, and shelling out 100 or more extra points just to make sure he doesn't get aced is just going to make that harder. In an apocalypse or super high point count game, I could do it, and bunker him up with some Retributors, but it'd be a hard sell for a 1250-1850 pt game. Especially since my primary detachment is Knights, and 100 extra points could mean the difference between another Knight Errant, or Gerantius, destroyer of men. Or a Cerastus Acheron.

go for the Acheron. Sorry, but hellstorm isn't seen enough.

Already got one on the way Fluffwise, he's my Knight Lance Captain, and gamewise, he'll be leading the charge as my Seneschal. I've heard that one of the biggest problems with Knights is their inability to deal with blobs and tarpits, and I figure sweeping up the board one hellstorm at a time isn't a bad way to handle that particular issue!

I only brought it up because the Acheron and Gerantius are two of the most expensive Knights to field, and 100 points less might force me to take a less up-gunned knight.