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Hello all! I'm a long time follower of Dakka, and I've wanted to do a BarRep for a while now, so here it is despite a glaring lack of pictures. Next one I do will have many, but unfortunately I own only but a dumb phone (ie not a smart one) with VERY limited picture taking ability. I'll bring my camera next time. Our gaming group is rather small, but those of us that do play, closely follow 40k. The DaemoNids are somewhat new to me, (this is my 4th game playing this list), but my opponent is equally new to playing a CentStar. This is my first time playing against a CentStar army, and I am a bit nervous going in, but feel confident in my ability to block at least one key power a turn. Without further adieu, our lists and a texty battle report.
DaemoNids
Flyrant: 2x TL Devourers Flyrant: 2x TL Devourers
Venomthrope
Mucolid Mucolid Mucolid
Fateweaver Tz'erald: ML3, Disc Exalted Reward (Grimoire) Tz'erald: ML3, Disc Kh'erald: Juggernaut, Locus of Wrath, Lesser Reward (Axe of Khorne)
3x Nurglings 11x Pink Horrors
7x Screamers 16x Flesh Hounds
Total WC: 16
CentStar
Draigo GK Libby: ML3 Liber Daemonica
5x GK Termies: PsyCannon
Dreadknight (DK): Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Incinerator, Great Sword
Mission: Crusade with 3 objectives Deployment Type: Dawn of War
Terrain and Objective Placement (NOTE: For purposes of visualization, consider all directional references to be from the DaemoNid (my) perspective.)
Large (12”x8”) LOS-blocking ruin in the center of the board. Four other slightly smaller ruins are near each corner of the board and a fifth ruin just to the right of the centerpiece. Craters and battlefield debris scattered in between.
One objective is placed in the near ruin on my left (my deployment zone), one is in the centerpiece ruin, and one is in the far ruin on my right (opponent's deployment zone).
Deployment and Psychic Powers
Spoiler:
DaemoNids: I win the roll to choose 1st turn, and I am more than happy/eager to deploy first and take 1st turn. We're both running psychic deathstars, so 1st turn is critical.
I deploy my 2 Hive Tyrants and venomthrope in the ruin to my left (on an objective). Hounds deploy centrally. ScreamerStar deploys behind Hounds and slightly to the right. Horrors are placed in the smaller multi level ruin in my right corner of the board. Fateweaver deploys hiding behind this ruin. 3 Mucolids and the Nurglings will deepstrike
CentStar: TFC deploys dead center in a crater bolstered to a 4+ cover save. 1 Tac Squad surrounds the TFC. CentStar deploys slightly to the right of TFC. 2Nd Tac Squad deploys in the ruin in the far right corner (on an objective). DK deploys immediately behind this ruin. GK Termies will deepstrike and Storm Talon is in reserve.
Fateweaver: Psychic Shriek, Life Leech, Summoning; Prescience, Flame Breath, Incursion + Change Powers Tz'erald 1: Summoning, Incursion, Infernal Gaze, Flickering Fire Tz'erald 2: Summoning, Sacrifice, Dark Flam, Flickering Fire Horrors: Summoning, Flickering Fire Hive Tyrant 1: Onslaught, The Horror Hive Tyrant 2: Onslaught, Psychic Scream (Sheist!! No Cursed Earth!)
I don't remember precisely what powers the CentStar had. Gate of Infinity, Invisibility, Prescience, Perfect Timing, Sanctuary, Banishment, and Hammerhand + a few more he never cast.
CentStar doesn't seize and we get on with it.
DaemoNids Turn 1
Spoiler:
Movement: Hounds+Herald advance into/around centerpiece ruins. Both Flyrants swoop in front of Hounds. ScreamerStar advances just behind right-central ruin. Fateweaver swoops 24” directly forward. Grimoire is successfully used on the Hounds.
Psychic Phase: ScreamerStar successfully casts Sacrifice (sacrificing a Hound w/in 6”) to summon a ML2 Tz'erald who generates the much needed Cursed Earth! New Tz'erald deepstrikes into right-central ruin. ScreamerStar also summons 5 hounds. CentStar tries to deny, but fails. Newly summoned Herald casts Cursed Earth. Hounds+Herald are now 2++ , and Screamers are 4+. Fateweaver attepts to PsyShriek DK, but is denied.
Shooting: Flyrants both have range on the CentStar. One Flyrant shoots into the CentStar managing to circumvent the tanking Draigo and kills a GravCent. With Draigo up front for the other Flyrant, I elect to target the Tac Squad protecting his TFC and kill 4. Remaining Sarge passes morale.
CentStar Turn 1
Spoiler:
Movement:GK Termies fail their reserve roll. DK shunts forward to hit the left flank of my ScreamerStar. Nothing else moves.
Psychic Phase: He casts Invis with Tiggy first managing 4 successes. I chunk my entire WC pool at it and manage to deny. After that he successfully manifests Gate, Prescience, and Sanctuary on the CentStar. It Gates directly behind my ScreamerStar, hoping to punish me for not properly buffing it. DK gets off Force.
Shooting: The DK opens up into the Screamers. The Incinerator removes 1 Screamer and Psilencer eats 3 (Force! Ouch!). TFC fires and removes another 2 Screamers. CentStar opens up and kills everything but the Tz'erald with the Grimoire, whom my opponent desperately wanted dead. A hot round of saves really helped me here!
DaemoNids Turn 2
Spoiler:
Movement: All reserved units arrive. The 3 Mucolids successfully DS near the TFC, and Nurglings DS behind the large LOS-blocking ruin, near the central objective. Hounds+Herald move back into my deployment zone to assault CentStar. Summoned Hounds move toward fresh Tac Squad who are sitting on an objective. Lone Grimoire Tz'erald hides behind central ruin. Grimoire is used on Hounds again.
Psychic Phase: Tz'erald fails to cast Incursion looking for 3 Screamers. Summoned Tz'erald casts Cursed Earth, but is denied. Fateweaver casts PsyShriek on DK again, and he fails to deny. I roll a 6-5-1 for PsyShriek. I invoke Fatey's reroll on the 1 and get a 4! 5 wounds done to the DK, and he fails 4 of his invuln saves! With that, the DK and a huge thorn in my side is removed from my deployment zone.
Shooting: Tyrants circle back to soften up CentStar and take out 1 more GravCent.
Assault: Summoned Hounds assault Tac Squad on objective in far right ruin and kill 3. Hounds+Herald (3++ from Grimoire) assault CentStar. Draigo challenges, Herald accepts. Draigo inflicts 1W to Herald's none. Hounds finish off the last 2 Cents and do 1W to the GK Libby. Hounds take minimal casualties in return.
CentStar Turn 2
Spoiler:
Movement:GK Termies fail to arrive again, as does Storm Talon. Not much else to speak of.
Psychic Phase: Draigo and the 3 Libbys get off Hammerhand, Banishment (reducing Hounds to a 4++), Prescience and Force. Invis is denied. He doesn't try to Gate in fear of being shot up by the Flyrants, and he has a decent chance to win combat this round.
Shooting:TFC targets Pink Horrors, killing a couple.
Assault: Summoned Hounds polish off objective holding Tac Squad. Draigo kills the Herald in a challenge. Force attacks from the 3 Libbys reduce the Hounds to around 10 bodies.
DaemoNids Turn 3
Spoiler:
Movement: Flyrants zig zag back to target the last survivor of Tac Squad 1 and the TFC. Summoned Tz'erald moves towards Hounds+Herald to give Cursed Earth Support. Grimoire Tz'erald continues to hide. Nurglings move to claim central objective. Summoned Hounds sit on objective in opponent's DZ. Grimoire goes to hounds in combat with Draigo and Friends again.
Psychic Phase: 5 Hounds and 3 Screamers are summoned, but Grimoire Herald perils and dies in the process. Cursed Earth is sucessfully cast and not denied.
Shooting: 1 Flyrant polishes off the last Tac Marine and the other manages to kill the TFC. Summoned Tz'erald runs to get within range of Hounds for Cursed Earth support (they now have a 3++).
Assault: Hounds do no wounds to Draigo and Friends. 3 more Hounds lost this round, but I roll low for Daemonic Instability.
CentStar Turn 3
Spoiler:
Movement: Storm Talon fails to arrive again. GK Termies arrive via DS and are pretty much his last hope. He places them near my troops and lone Tz'eralds, but they scatter into the Hounds and Draigo. He rolls a 1 on the mishap table and they are gone!
Psychic Phase: He decides not to Gate again. I deny Invis and Banishment meaning my hounds are at a 2++ this turn.
All the CentStar has at this point is a techmarine and the remnants of the CentStar on the table and a Storm Talon in reserve. We call it due to time, and what is most likely a tabling. A solid win for the DaemoNids!!
In hindsight, many mistakes were made on both sides, and I learned a lot from this game. Post-Game Analysis to eusue. I'd be happy to answer any questions you have regarding details of the battle.
Post-Game Analysis
Spoiler:
Oh the mistakes. I'm going to detail each of our blunders as thoroughly as possible in hopes that neither of us is doomed to repeat them.
DaemoNids (astro's) Gaffs ALWAYS protect the ScreamerStar!!! I made one of the classic noob mistakes, in that I was afraid to lose units even though their sacrifice might benefit me in the long run. 4++ rerolling 1's isn't bad I thought. He'll wanna shoot at the Hounds, I thought. What was I thinking?!?! I should have lost the Grimoire that turn. Between a bad decision by the CentStar, and hot dice for my saves, it wasn't so and my precious Grimoire was able to limp away. Besides this one egregious mistake on my part, however, I don't think I made too many others. By the time I had been punished for my poor choice, my hand was pretty much forced into using the Grimoire on the hounds. There was nothing else to protect, really. If we had gone to turn 4, I would have probably given up on the hounds and been able to join my herald to the Screamers summoned in Turn 3, but that wasn't necessary. Would I have lost if he had killed the Grimoire Turn 1? I'm not sure. It would definitely have been a different game, but the Hounds would have taken out a large chunk of the CentStar either way. The neutered CentStar would still have to deal with 3 potent FMCs over the course of the game with only a Storm Talon to aid them. We'll never know for sure, and I have no intent to find out. I will be protecting the Screamers to the best of my ability from here out.
Bunglings of the CentStar Positioning of models within his deathstar really hurt him this game. He had the general idea right (Draigo up front) upon initial deployment, but he could have predicted my Flyrants' movement better. This would have saved him a Cent. After his first turn Gate, however, he left another Cent exposed who was gunned down. With two down, weight of attacks from the hounds was enough to finish off the remaining 2 Cents. I'm guessing that the CentStar should generally have both Draigo and the GK Libby up front to soak damage from more angles, while protecting Cents and the squishier 3+ save Tiggy and ML2 Libby. On turn 2 he should have finished what he started and put the TFC into my Grimoire herald to even hope for a shot in this game. The herald was out of LOS so it would have been somewhat of a long shot, but one he needed to take. Alternatively, he could have gone after the Cursed Earth Herald. Either would have been a better decision. And what can I say, dice hurt him this game. The GK Termies not arriving until Turn 3 (despite rolling from Turn 1) really hurt. Mishapping badly was salt in the wound, but he should have placed them more conservatively. The Storm Talon failing to arrive at all really, really hurt. Had his reserves arrived in a timely manner this would have been a very different game. Alas , it is a dice game, and the dice decided it was not to be.
That's all I've got for now. If any of you see other errors to be remedied, do tell. Thanks for the read!
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2015/01/21 01:33:54
Psilence wrote: Nice write up, thanks for posting. I like your format for the bat rep, very clean and clear.
Looking forward to more reps, and maybe a full game
Thanks. I'm new to batrepping, but I love to read them (especially a well formatted one), so I basically just imitated good text BatReps by Jy2 and others.
Hopfully the next game will provide for a fuller BatRep. A few bad rolls and choices (to be analyzed soon), and a few good rolls on my part made the game a forgone conclusion by Turn 3.
To anyone else reading, I'd love to hear how you think both of us could have played it differently/better.
Having no reliable means to protect your two important ground units simultaneously (the Hounds and the Screamers) is going to hurt you in the long run--in fact, the only possible means for you to be able to protect them both would be Fateweaver hitting Invisibility or Shrouding.
But when you're faced with someone who actually has the firepower to remove one of them quickly and you've got to choose which to protect, you can't choose the Hounds. Doing so really should have lost you this game. The Screamers are the ones who possess your one means of protecting a unit (the Grimoire) and as such, failing to protect them means you'll lose it and then be able to protect nothing.
Losing your Grimoire on Turn 1-2 would be a terrible situation in a game like this; it sounded like you got lucky to not lose it in the first place, but your opponent had means to remove it after the fact and just didn't (for instance, firing the TFC at Pink Horrors instead of using it to finish off the hiding Grimoire bearer) or because dice didn't cooperate (either his Storm Talon or DSing Terminators would have easily handled it). It's also bizarre that a pair of Flyrants were able to actually accomplish meaningful damage to a Centstar--that sounds like miserable dice on his behalf (a Dakka Flyrant firing on a 2+/T5 unit should only cause a single wound) on top of some really poor positioning (there's no reason for the Centurions to be tanking wounds with 4 characters around), likely due to him being new at the army.
You'll have to get used to losing the Hounds somewhat frequently, but that's sorta what they're for. They're fast and dangerous and they delay your opponent by a turn or two while they're dealt with--they don't have to be an invincible unit, and there's plenty they can't kill anyhow so it's hard for them to single-handedly go win you a game--but since you're focused on summoning they can at least give you a turn or two to start building up some extra bodies.
There are also situations (mostly against mutual Deathstars, like in this game) where you can use the Screamerstar's invinciblity as a tool to create defense for the Hounds tactically, rather than just brute forcing it with Invisibility or the Grimoire. Like I said before, in practice you're going to find that you've basically got to use your Grimoire to shield your Screamerstar at the expense of your Hounds against overwhelming firepower--but if all that firepower is coming from one unit, you can easily smash the Screamerstar into it and now you've created a situation wherein the Hounds are essentially safe without expending any psychic/Grimoire resources to actually protect them.
Basically, these are the two possible scenarios:
1). Grimoire the Hounds to fight the Centstar (which they aren't going to kill in any reasonable timeframe)
1a). Your Screamers are exposed until the fight begins, which could easily cost you your Grimoire, rendering the point moot in the first place as you lose both units
1b). Best-case scenario, any surviving Screamers are still tethered to the Centstar/Hound fight, as they've got to remain in range to continue Grimoiring them on subsequent turns, so they aren't exactly free to operate at will
1c). Your Hounds are locked in the fight, unable to contribute elsewhere
2). Grimoire the Screamers to fight the Centstar (which they aren't going to kill in any reasonable timeframe)
2a). Your Hounds are exposed until the fight begins, which could cost you an offensive unit, though they are better suited to soak the damage (32 Hound wounds vs. 14 Screamer wounds)
2b). Any surviving Hounds are free to operate at will, safe from 90% of the enemy firepower, which was fully contained in the Centstar
2c). Your Screamers, despite being locked in the fight, are still able to contribute the vast majority of their usefulness (Summoning powers, Cursed Earth, Grimoire, etc) while holding the enemy Deathstar in place
BTW, I believe that that newly summoned units (such as your summoned Herald) won't be able to participate in the current psychic phase, or the phase that they were summoned. They would have to wait until the next psychic phase before they can cast any powers of their own.
Also, if you want to protect both units - flesh hounds and screamers - consider swapping out Fateweaver for Be'lakor. That can actually benefit all 3:
1. Be'lakor has Shrouding on himself for 2+ jink. Or you can put the Grimoire on him for 2++ Invuln. He's also hard-to-hit due to swooping.
2. Be'lakor casts Shrouding. Screamers stay near him for 2+ jink.
3. Be'lakor can cast Invisibility on the flesh hounds or screamerstar can put Grimoire + Cursed Earth/Forewarning on the hounds for 2++ Invuln.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I believe that that newly summoned units (such as your summoned Herald) won't be able to participate in the current psychic phase, or the phase that they were summoned. They would have to wait until the next psychic phase before they can cast any powers of their own.
Just to be clear on this conjured psykers can't cast conjurations on the turn they're summoned (don't add warp charges of course) but can cast normally otherwise.
jy2 wrote: Also, if you want to protect both units - flesh hounds and screamers - consider swapping out Fateweaver for Be'lakor. That can actually benefit all 3.
Be'lakor definitely provides more direct protection than Fateweaver, but it's hard to straight-swap them in that manner. Fateweaver ensures the core playstyle is sound, with Warp Storm protection and Grimoire insurance.
Grimoire is always the focus as it has so many benefits over Psychic protections--while both can fail, the Grimoire can't be denied or switched off by a Culexus. It's also a universal protection method (except Stomp because reasons) whereas Shroud/Jink has numerous limitations (assault, ignore cover) and even Invisibility has ways to be worked around.
He's also 50 points more expensive in an army that's already hurting for bodies.
I don't think using the Hounds sacrificially is a terrible thing overall, he's just definitely got to avoid the temptation to try to save them at the expense of his Screamers and Heralds.
BTW, I believe that that newly summoned units (such as your summoned Herald) won't be able to participate in the current psychic phase, or the phase that they were summoned. They would have to wait until the next psychic phase before they can cast any powers of their own.
Also, if you want to protect both units - flesh hounds and screamers - consider swapping out Fateweaver for Be'lakor. That can actually benefit all 3:
1. Be'lakor has Shrouding on himself for 2+ jink. Or you can put the Grimoire on him for 2++ Invuln. He's also hard-to-hit due to swooping.
2. Be'lakor casts Shrouding. Screamers stay near him for 2+ jink.
3. Be'lakor can cast Invisibility on the flesh hounds or screamerstar can put Grimoire + Cursed Earth/Forewarning on the hounds for 2++ Invuln.
DJ3 wrote:
jy2 wrote: Also, if you want to protect both units - flesh hounds and screamers - consider swapping out Fateweaver for Be'lakor. That can actually benefit all 3.
Be'lakor definitely provides more direct protection than Fateweaver, but it's hard to straight-swap them in that manner. Fateweaver ensures the core playstyle is sound, with Warp Storm protection and Grimoire insurance.
Grimoire is always the focus as it has so many benefits over Psychic protections--while both can fail, the Grimoire can't be denied or switched off by a Culexus. It's also a universal protection method (except Stomp because reasons) whereas Shroud/Jink has numerous limitations (assault, ignore cover) and even Invisibility has ways to be worked around.
He's also 50 points more expensive in an army that's already hurting for bodies.
I don't think using the Hounds sacrificially is a terrible thing overall, he's just definitely got to avoid the temptation to try to save them at the expense of his Screamers and Heralds.
Yeah I don't think I'll be switching over to Be'Lakor. The combos are cool and juicy, but Tau and Eldar don't really care about the 2+ cover saves all that much. Oldcrons can bypass Invis to a certain degree (we all know how good snapshotting tesla is), and the Grimoire has the merit of being undeniable. Having the Grimoire as a fairly reliable means of protection for the list is a must. Not having to sweat the Warpstorm table near as much is also nice. I also got to experience how much fun Psychic Shriek can be with the luxury of a re roll on one die from Fatey Lastly, I know my list isn't perfect by any means, maybe not even top tier, but I think its strong, I like it, and I really want to master it as is before moving on.
Dozer Blades wrote:I like the report format. You had really good luck and your opponent made several big mistakes imo.
We both made mistakes. Mine could (and probably should) have cost me the game. The winds of chaos were with me that day though. I really wanted BatRep this game exactly because both of us made some bad moves, as I feel like both of us will learn from them.
Post-Game Analysis
Oh the mistakes. I'm going to detail each of our blunders as thoroughly as possible in hopes that neither of us is doomed to repeat them.
DaemoNids (astro's) Gaffs ALWAYS protect the ScreamerStar!!! I made one of the classic noob mistakes, in that I was afraid to lose units even though their sacrifice might benefit me in the long run. 4++ rerolling 1's isn't bad I thought. He'll wanna shoot at the Hounds, I thought. What was I thinking?!?! I should have lost the Grimoire that turn. Between a bad decision by the CentStar, and hot dice for my saves, it wasn't so and my precious Grimoire was able to limp away. Besides this one egregious mistake on my part, however, I don't think I made too many others. By the time I had been punished for my poor choice, my hand was pretty much forced into using the Grimoire on the hounds. There was nothing else to protect, really. If we had gone to turn 4, I would have probably given up on the hounds and been able to join my herald to the Screamers summoned in Turn 3, but that wasn't necessary. Would I have lost if he had killed the Grimoire Turn 1? I'm not sure. It would definitely have been a different game, but the Hounds would have taken out a large chunk of the CentStar either way. The neutered CentStar would still have to deal with 3 potent FMCs over the course of the game with only a Storm Talon to aid them. We'll never know for sure, and I have no intent to find out. I will be protecting the Screamers to the best of my ability from here out.
Bunglings of the CentStar Positioning of models within his deathstar really hurt him this game. He had the general idea right (Draigo up front) upon initial deployment, but he could have predicted my Flyrants' movement better. This would have saved him a Cent. After his first turn Gate, however, he left another Cent exposed who was gunned down. With two down, weight of attacks from the hounds was enough to finish off the remaining 2 Cents. I'm guessing that the CentStar should generally have both Draigo and the GK Libby up front to soak damage from more angles, while protecting Cents and the squishier 3+ save Tiggy and ML2 Libby. On turn 2 he should have finished what he started and put the TFC into my Grimoire herald to even hope for a shot in this game. The herald was out of LOS so it would have been somewhat of a long shot, but one he needed to take. Alternatively, he could have gone after the Cursed Earth Herald. Either would have been a better decision. And what can I say, dice hurt him this game. The GK Termies not arriving until Turn 3 (despite rolling from Turn 1) really hurt. Mishapping badly was salt in the wound, but he should have placed them more conservatively. The Storm Talon failing to arrive at all really, really hurt. Had his reserves arrived in a timely manner this would have been a very different game. Alas , it is a dice game, and the dice decided it was not to be.
That's all I've got for now. If any of you see other errors to be remedied, do tell.
P.S. To the CentStar players out there: What can my buddy do to optimize his list? We've both been going over some options (switch tacs to scouts for starters), but I'm sure he'd appreciate the community's input.
Scouts are way better than tactical Marines for this army. Reecius has been a big proponent for scouts and I learned from him. As you said way cheaper so you can take more and semi MSU. They have a much better cover save with camo cloaks and can outflank as well.
I currently run two Strike squads. One is ten man so they can combat squad and a five man squad for three warp charges. Strikes are semi elite too so I think they are woth the points. I run the full squad in a Stormraven - each combat squad can paratroop whenever they want.
The ideal situation is when the star can support the troops towards the end game for synergy. It's one of the things that can make the army go the distance versus other top tier lists.
Cool. Thanks for the input. I'll talk to him about finding points for a raven. A single Storm Talon might not even persuade me to jink, but a Raven will definitely force that decision and would be much harder to take down.
Rematch coming soon. . .CentStar is more optimized (ala Dozer Blades' suggestions) and we're both ready to player a tougher smarter match. Who will take it????
jy2 wrote: BTW, I believe that that newly summoned units (such as your summoned Herald) won't be able to participate in the current psychic phase, or the phase that they were summoned. They would have to wait until the next psychic phase before they can cast any powers of their own.
Just to be clear on this conjured psykers can't cast conjurations on the turn they're summoned (don't add warp charges of course) but can cast normally otherwise.
After reviewing the rules again, yeah, you're right. My mistake.
jy2 wrote: Also, if you want to protect both units - flesh hounds and screamers - consider swapping out Fateweaver for Be'lakor. That can actually benefit all 3.
Be'lakor definitely provides more direct protection than Fateweaver, but it's hard to straight-swap them in that manner. Fateweaver ensures the core playstyle is sound, with Warp Storm protection and Grimoire insurance.
Grimoire is always the focus as it has so many benefits over Psychic protections--while both can fail, the Grimoire can't be denied or switched off by a Culexus. It's also a universal protection method (except Stomp because reasons) whereas Shroud/Jink has numerous limitations (assault, ignore cover) and even Invisibility has ways to be worked around.
He's also 50 points more expensive in an army that's already hurting for bodies.
I don't think using the Hounds sacrificially is a terrible thing overall, he's just definitely got to avoid the temptation to try to save them at the expense of his Screamers and Heralds.
Merely suggesting Be'lakor as a different playstyle preference over Fateweaver. They each have their strengths and weaknesses. They both help the army in their ways. While Fateweaver gives limited protection against the Warp Storm and bad dice, Be'lakor gives guaranteed defensive psychic powers that can be used to augment standard Daemon defense (like the Grimoire). It's not a case of which is better. It's more of a case of what type of Daemon playstyle one prefers. With Fatey, it's usually the matter of protecting one unit at the expense of the other. With Be'lakor, you can protect both units.
Yeah I don't think I'll be switching over to Be'Lakor. The combos are cool and juicy, but Tau and Eldar don't really care about the 2+ cover saves all that much. Oldcrons can bypass Invis to a certain degree (we all know how good snapshotting tesla is), and the Grimoire has the merit of being undeniable. Having the Grimoire as a fairly reliable means of protection for the list is a must. Not having to sweat the Warpstorm table near as much is also nice. I also got to experience how much fun Psychic Shriek can be with the luxury of a re roll on one die from Fatey Lastly, I know my list isn't perfect by any means, maybe not even top tier, but I think its strong, I like it, and I really want to master it as is before moving on.
No worries.
I used to be a fan of Fateweaver back in 6th. But ever since Be'lakor came out, I've been more of a Be'lakor fan.
P.S. To the CentStar players out there: What can my buddy do to optimize his list? We've both been going over some options (switch tacs to scouts for starters), but I'm sure he'd appreciate the community's input.
Downgrade those GK Terminators to a strike squad.
Give the dreadknight a Personal Teleporter, dropping the Gatling Psilencer if you have to. Frankly, if you want to run him, consider running 2.
Swap out the Tac squads for scouts, preferably in land speeder storms.
Finally, consider swapping out both the stormtalon and TFC for a stormraven.
Can't wait to read the Batrep for the rematch !!! I think it'll be a lot closer this time... Could go either way.
I don't take the second level 2 Librarian as I'd rather put the points towards more troops. Might want to consider running Severin Loth from the Red Scorpions (Forge World chapter tactics and special characters). They both have their advantages but Loth guarantees you'll get both Invisibility and Shrouded... Can't go wrong with psychic shriek either !
jy2 wrote: BTW, I believe that that newly summoned units (such as your summoned Herald) won't be able to participate in the current psychic phase, or the phase that they were summoned. They would have to wait until the next psychic phase before they can cast any powers of their own.
Just to be clear on this conjured psykers can't cast conjurations on the turn they're summoned (don't add warp charges of course) but can cast normally otherwise.
After reviewing the rules again, yeah, you're right. My mistake.
jy2 wrote: Also, if you want to protect both units - flesh hounds and screamers - consider swapping out Fateweaver for Be'lakor. That can actually benefit all 3.
Be'lakor definitely provides more direct protection than Fateweaver, but it's hard to straight-swap them in that manner. Fateweaver ensures the core playstyle is sound, with Warp Storm protection and Grimoire insurance.
Grimoire is always the focus as it has so many benefits over Psychic protections--while both can fail, the Grimoire can't be denied or switched off by a Culexus. It's also a universal protection method (except Stomp because reasons) whereas Shroud/Jink has numerous limitations (assault, ignore cover) and even Invisibility has ways to be worked around.
He's also 50 points more expensive in an army that's already hurting for bodies.
I don't think using the Hounds sacrificially is a terrible thing overall, he's just definitely got to avoid the temptation to try to save them at the expense of his Screamers and Heralds.
Merely suggesting Be'lakor as a different playstyle preference over Fateweaver. They each have their strengths and weaknesses. They both help the army in their ways. While Fateweaver gives limited protection against the Warp Storm and bad dice, Be'lakor gives guaranteed defensive psychic powers that can be used to augment standard Daemon defense (like the Grimoire). It's not a case of which is better. It's more of a case of what type of Daemon playstyle one prefers. With Fatey, it's usually the matter of protecting one unit at the expense of the other. With Be'lakor, you can protect both units.
Yeah I don't think I'll be switching over to Be'Lakor. The combos are cool and juicy, but Tau and Eldar don't really care about the 2+ cover saves all that much. Oldcrons can bypass Invis to a certain degree (we all know how good snapshotting tesla is), and the Grimoire has the merit of being undeniable. Having the Grimoire as a fairly reliable means of protection for the list is a must. Not having to sweat the Warpstorm table near as much is also nice. I also got to experience how much fun Psychic Shriek can be with the luxury of a re roll on one die from Fatey Lastly, I know my list isn't perfect by any means, maybe not even top tier, but I think its strong, I like it, and I really want to master it as is before moving on.
No worries.
I used to be a fan of Fateweaver back in 6th. But ever since Be'lakor came out, I've been more of a Be'lakor fan.
I may give him a shot one of these days. As you said they both have their trade-offs. The only thing that keeps me from running Be'Lakor is the points really. 50 pts doesn't sound like much, but this list is so tight on points and bodies, I just can't think of where they'd come from. Downgrading the horrors to nurglings could probably work, but that would cost me 3 warp charges. Not sure I can stomach that.
P.S. To the CentStar players out there: What can my buddy do to optimize his list? We've both been going over some options (switch tacs to scouts for starters), but I'm sure he'd appreciate the community's input.
Downgrade those GK Terminators to a strike squad.
Give the dreadknight a Personal Teleporter, dropping the Gatling Psilencer if you have to. Frankly, if you want to run him, consider running 2.
Swap out the Tac squads for scouts, preferably in land speeder storms.
Finally, consider swapping out both the stormtalon and TFC for a stormraven.
I think so too. First I'd drop the tac squad to scouts and save 60 points. Do you think the Lvl 2 Ultramarine Libby is worth it? Any other changes?
He's ok. Personally, I'd drop him if it would help to get a 2nd dreadknight into the army.
He just sent me his list. He made a lot of those changes. And sorry I forgot to list it the first time but his DK did have a teleporter last game.
Dozer Blades wrote:Can't wait to read the Batrep for the rematch !!! I think it'll be a lot closer this time... Could go either way.
I don't take the second level 2 Librarian as I'd rather put the points towards more troops. Might want to consider running Severin Loth from the Red Scorpions (Forge World chapter tactics and special characters). They both have their advantages but Loth guarantees you'll get both Invisibility and Shrouded... Can't go wrong with psychic shriek either !
Glad you're ready for it. We'll be playing Saturday and I'll get some pics this time.
My list is gonna stay the same for now. Even though I just got a third flyrant in and I reaaalllyyy want to use it I haven't been able to come up with a 3 Flyrant and Daemons list that I'm a fan of though.
Here's the new CentStar list:
Tiggy
5x Scouts in LSS 5x Scouts
3x Grav Cents w/ ML Cent Sarge w/ Grav and Omniscope
Soooo, I said I'd keep the same list, but after some thought while waiting for models to dry (and a little inspiration from Nick Nanavanti's Bird and Bee Daemons), I came up with this:
Bumps me up to 21 Warp Charges, but I lose some board control from the big Hound squad. Any of you Daemons players have a feel for which is the better TAC list?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/22 08:43:38
Wouldn't put any faith in an unsupported secondary unit of Screamers myself; I've tried it in a few variations (and I actually have the means to protect them), and they almost always underperform. The truth is that a unit of 7-8 Screamers isn't actually that much of an offensive threat, and they usually just end up becoming a backup Screamerstar core (which means things are going poorly) or annoyance unit (which we tend to have plenty of, or can summon at will).
I wouldn't draw any comparisons to Nick's list--his army plays very differently to pretty much any other Daemon army due to the ramifications of having that giant Plague Drone blob sitting in the center of the table. There's a very wide strategic gap between "essentially unkillable" (2++, Invisibility, etc) and "just incredibly annoying to kill" (FNP Plague Drones in cover), the primary difference being that the Drones actually draw fire. A Screamerstar is instead ignored, and this tends to quickly lead to the death of a secondary Screamer unit, as they've got nothing better to do but shoot at it.
Having a center-control/anchor unit that actually draws fire allows his extra Screamer units to operate in ways that they really can't in a more Screamerstar-focused list.
Alright the list is sticking then. I like the Hounds for the exact same reasons. They're slightly faster and a good deal cheaper, but less durable and don't threaten quite as many targets. I'll take those trade-offs to a Drone Star. Although DJ3, I do feel like you are critiquing the strengths and weaknesses of the list as if the Hive Tyrants aren't even there. Most lists cannot simply ignore 24 TL S6 shots a turn. There will be armies who can deal with 2 Flyrants, that is a given. But every time shots go into them, its not at the Hounds, and not at Fateweaver. Both can inflict non-trivial damage to an opponent's army.
In terms of judging the survivability of your army, you should act as if the Flyrants aren't there. Same goes for Fateweaver and the Screamerstar--they are things that a good opponent simply will not shoot at, until an opportunity presents itself to make shooting at them a reasonable option (failed Grimoire/Grounded/etc).
Most competitive armies aren't equipped to kill Flyrants (in anything resembling an efficient manner) these days. Tau and Necrons are about the only exceptions, and with Necrons losing Tesla on Snap Shots (goodbye, Anti-airhillation Barges) next week, it'll likely just be Tau.
I've played against ten or so 2-4 Flyrant lists at tournaments in 6th and 7th Edition and not once have I killed all the Flyrants (I'm usually lucky to even kill one, generally "it's Turn 5 and everything else is dead, may as well" or "huh, that was a really high Psychic Shriek roll!"), and I haven't lost to any of them. Any Marine or Eldar list should have about the same outlook on the situation; you can't afford to kill them, so you just play to minimize the damage they can cause. Attempting to shoot down a Flyrant when you don't have any tools designed to accomplish it is a quick shortcut to losing a game terribly.
It's a (much, much, much) lesser variation of what I always liked to call the Phantom Heldrake Problem in early 6th. Wherein everyone on the internet freaked out about how Heldrakes were unstoppable killing machines for eight months, yet multi-Heldrake lists accomplished literally nothing at major tournaments. Again, Flyrants are definitely more competitive than Heldrakes ever were, but they can lead to the same issues regarding the perception of why they're good:
Person 1: I lost another game because of damn Heldrakes! I will now go on Dakka and complain about it.
Person 2: Wait, how did you lose a game because of Heldrakes?
Person 1: I shot at them the whole game and didn't manage to kill them! Why are they so OP?
Person 2: Why in the sweet hell were you shooting at them?
If someone spends all game (or like three full turns of focus fire) shooting at your Flyrants, your Flyrants did not "win the game." The other guy lost the game by making terrible target priority choices and having no tactical flexibility beyond "kill the thing I deem most dangerous at all costs."
DJ3 wrote: In terms of judging the survivability of your army, you should act as if the Flyrants aren't there. Same goes for Fateweaver and the Screamerstar--they are things that a good opponent simply will not shoot at, until an opportunity presents itself to make shooting at them a reasonable option (failed Grimoire/Grounded/etc).
Most competitive armies aren't equipped to kill Flyrants (in anything resembling an efficient manner) these days. Tau and Necrons are about the only exceptions, and with Necrons losing Tesla on Snap Shots (goodbye, Anti-airhillation Barges) next week, it'll likely just be Tau.
I've played against ten or so 2-4 Flyrant lists at tournaments in 6th and 7th Edition and not once have I killed all the Flyrants (I'm usually lucky to even kill one, generally "it's Turn 5 and everything else is dead, may as well" or "huh, that was a really high Psychic Shriek roll!"), and I haven't lost to any of them. Any Marine or Eldar list should have about the same outlook on the situation; you can't afford to kill them, so you just play to minimize the damage they can cause. Attempting to shoot down a Flyrant when you don't have any tools designed to accomplish it is a quick shortcut to losing a game terribly.
It's a (much, much, much) lesser variation of what I always liked to call the Phantom Heldrake Problem in early 6th. Wherein everyone on the internet freaked out about how Heldrakes were unstoppable killing machines for eight months, yet multi-Heldrake lists accomplished literally nothing at major tournaments. Again, Flyrants are definitely more competitive than Heldrakes ever were, but they can lead to the same issues regarding the perception of why they're good:
Person 1: I lost another game because of damn Heldrakes! I will now go on Dakka and complain about it.
Person 2: Wait, how did you lose a game because of Heldrakes?
Person 1: I shot at them the whole game and didn't manage to kill them! Why are they so OP?
Person 2: Why in the sweet hell were you shooting at them?
If someone spends all game (or like three full turns of focus fire) shooting at your Flyrants, your Flyrants did not "win the game." The other guy lost the game by making terrible target priority choices and having no tactical flexibility beyond "kill the thing I deem most dangerous at all costs."
Fair points. One of my most consistent opponents is a Tau player, so I'm pretty accustomed to him diverting a fair portion of his shooting into my FMCs. That combined with the fact that we have a relatively small 40K community in my area and my lack of time or resources to travel to larger events at the moment has probably led me to have a somewhat skewed view of the durability they contribute to the list overall.
Alas, I am but a fledgeling competitive gamer hoping to run with the big dogs someday. All that being said, I still really enjoy this list so far.
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
Lastly, I know my list isn't perfect by any means, maybe not even top tier, but I think its strong, I like it, and I really want to master it as is before moving on.
I haven't been able to come up with a 3 Flyrant and Daemons list that I'm a fan of though.