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 Formosa wrote:
Why are you saying there illegal? Making them is illegal, but buying them isn't in the UK as far as I'm aware, is it in the US?

Formosa - KNOWING buying an unauthorised recast is indeed illegal in the UK, now if you can prove that you did not know it was a recast then legally the police would just take the item and destroy it (and no - you don't get a refund from the police and are unlike to get a refund from the people who broke the law to make it for you)

You could of cause argue that you bought it not know it was a recast - but considering FW are very clear that you can only buy direct from them this might be a difficult sell.

Of cause as with many things whilst it is illegal it is highly unlike you'll get caught, so people go ahead and do it anyway, but don't think going out and buying knockoff gear knowing that it is knockoff isn't illegal in the UK because it is.

* EDIT * The reason why it is illegal to knowing buy recasts is because it is illegal to (knowingly) support criminal activity (in the UK). So while the buying of the recasts itself isn't illegal, it is illegal to give the criminal your cash for them - I should have probably pointed this out.

I really didn't want this to turn into a recast thread seems like it has though. You are basically proving my point with all this discussion about recasts. See all these people buying recasts? You know why they are doing it? They are doing it because FW price is too high.

I am a consumer, I will not pay forge world 2x the price I pay GW when IMO (GW makes higher quality models), I KNOW I am not in the minority here. I had never seen a sicaran in person until this weekend. You know how I saw it? A dude at my shop was handing out 4 recasts he bought and distributing them to his friends. Forge world COULD have made that money, instead they let a Chinese man make that money.

Look, if you already have a lot of forge world and love forge world or whatever, that is great for you. I'm glad you get a special feeling because you have these things. I'm not trying to take your baby. This discussion was intended to attack the business side of things - not the emotional attachments. Clearly there is too much emotion involved in this topic to really have a constructive conversation.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
What exactly does GW do to win over customers?

They sell space marines. Which is enough for a lot of people.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I really didn't want this to turn into a recast thread seems like it has though. You are basically proving my point with all this discussion about recasts. See all these people buying recasts? You know why they are doing it? They are doing it because FW price is too high.

I am a consumer, I will not pay forge world 2x the price I pay GW when IMO (GW makes higher quality models), I KNOW I am not in the minority here. I had never seen a sicaran in person until this weekend. You know how I saw it? A dude at my shop was handing out 4 recasts he bought and distributing them to his friends. Forge world COULD have made that money, instead they let a Chinese man make that money.

Look, if you already have a lot of forge world and love forge world or whatever, that is great for you. I'm glad you get a special feeling because you have these things. I'm not trying to take your baby. This discussion was intended to attack the business side of things - not the emotional attachments. Clearly there is too much emotion involved in this topic to really have a constructive conversation.

I think the price disparity is being over done here, especially given the range of FW that can now be cheaper, or similarly priced to GW products, for example:

FW


£17


£20

GW


£18




FW

£40 for 10


GW

£21 for 5

 Melcavuk wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I really didn't want this to turn into a recast thread seems like it has though. You are basically proving my point with all this discussion about recasts. See all these people buying recasts? You know why they are doing it? They are doing it because FW price is too high.

I am a consumer, I will not pay forge world 2x the price I pay GW when IMO (GW makes higher quality models), I KNOW I am not in the minority here. I had never seen a sicaran in person until this weekend. You know how I saw it? A dude at my shop was handing out 4 recasts he bought and distributing them to his friends. Forge world COULD have made that money, instead they let a Chinese man make that money.

Look, if you already have a lot of forge world and love forge world or whatever, that is great for you. I'm glad you get a special feeling because you have these things. I'm not trying to take your baby. This discussion was intended to attack the business side of things - not the emotional attachments. Clearly there is too much emotion involved in this topic to really have a constructive conversation.

I think the price disparity is being over done here, especially given the range of FW that can now be cheaper, or similarly priced to GW products, for example:

FW


£17


£20

GW


£18




FW

£40 for 10


GW

£21 for 5

Well that sang priest never sells btw. No one wants a 30 USD resin character. Fine cast in general doesn't sell at the rate plastic stuff does. 50% of the issue is quality (the quality is bad on fine cast) and 50% is price.

I think a better comparison would be - a forge world sicarian vs a GW land raider. It's obvious that the sicaran borrows some of the characteristics from the raider itself. A sicarian is a land raider - cut in half that costs about 80% more.

Again I wouldnt quite say cut in in half, the Sicarian is significantly larger than a Predator for example, and yes costs £76 but is a highly detailed resin kit that in person looks significantly better than said Landraider (and has a nice amount of weight to it from the resin too)

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Melcavuk wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I really didn't want this to turn into a recast thread seems like it has though. You are basically proving my point with all this discussion about recasts. See all these people buying recasts? You know why they are doing it? They are doing it because FW price is too high.

I am a consumer, I will not pay forge world 2x the price I pay GW when IMO (GW makes higher quality models), I KNOW I am not in the minority here. I had never seen a sicaran in person until this weekend. You know how I saw it? A dude at my shop was handing out 4 recasts he bought and distributing them to his friends. Forge world COULD have made that money, instead they let a Chinese man make that money.

Look, if you already have a lot of forge world and love forge world or whatever, that is great for you. I'm glad you get a special feeling because you have these things. I'm not trying to take your baby. This discussion was intended to attack the business side of things - not the emotional attachments. Clearly there is too much emotion involved in this topic to really have a constructive conversation.

I think the price disparity is being over done here, especially given the range of FW that can now be cheaper, or similarly priced to GW products, for example:

FW


£17


£20

GW


£18




FW

£40 for 10


GW

£21 for 5

Well that sang priest never sells btw. No one wants a 30 USD resin character. Fine cast in general doesn't sell at the rate plastic stuff does. 50% of the issue is quality (the quality is bad on fine cast) and 50% is price.

I think a better comparison would be - a forge world sicarian vs a GW land raider. It's obvious that the sicaran borrows some of the characteristics from the raider itself. A sicarian is a land raider - cut in half that costs about 80% more.

The Sanguinary Priest is plastic. As is the Terminator Librarian.

And the Sicaran, as shown, is pretty big, it's definitely bigger than half a Land Raider. It's probably comparable in size.

 Korinov wrote:

 notprop wrote:
GW manufacture all of their good in the UK.

You seem to be making facile points to keep a facile arguement going.

AFAIK, that is not true. White Dwarf is printed in China, or at least it was until yesterday.

In regards to miniatures, both GW and FW did outsource production to China in the past. In fact, when FW stopped doing that and went back to manufacture models only in the west, their overall quality went down significantly.

You seen to not have any idea of what you're talking about.

ALl the end times books are also printed in China. Company is called C&C. I'm assuming that stands for Chinese and Cheap ... sorry... couldn't help myself.


Can't confirm the models are or not though ; unfortunately i just threw out all my box covers (used them for painting aids which i summarily realized i really didn't need, and thus had a pound of cardboard in a cardboard box, and immediately felt like a hoarder... so *toss*).

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Melcavuk wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I really didn't want this to turn into a recast thread seems like it has though. You are basically proving my point with all this discussion about recasts. See all these people buying recasts? You know why they are doing it? They are doing it because FW price is too high.

I am a consumer, I will not pay forge world 2x the price I pay GW when IMO (GW makes higher quality models), I KNOW I am not in the minority here. I had never seen a sicaran in person until this weekend. You know how I saw it? A dude at my shop was handing out 4 recasts he bought and distributing them to his friends. Forge world COULD have made that money, instead they let a Chinese man make that money.

Look, if you already have a lot of forge world and love forge world or whatever, that is great for you. I'm glad you get a special feeling because you have these things. I'm not trying to take your baby. This discussion was intended to attack the business side of things - not the emotional attachments. Clearly there is too much emotion involved in this topic to really have a constructive conversation.

I think the price disparity is being over done here, especially given the range of FW that can now be cheaper, or similarly priced to GW products, for example:

FW


£17


£20

GW


£18




FW

£40 for 10


GW

£21 for 5

Well that sang priest never sells btw. No one wants a 30 USD resin character. Fine cast in general doesn't sell at the rate plastic stuff does. 50% of the issue is quality (the quality is bad on fine cast) and 50% is price.

I think a better comparison would be - a forge world sicarian vs a GW land raider. It's obvious that the sicaran borrows some of the characteristics from the raider itself. A sicarian is a land raider - cut in half that costs about 80% more.

The Sanguinary Priest is plastic. As is the Terminator Librarian.

And the Sicaran, as shown, is pretty big, it's definitely bigger than half a Land Raider. It's probably comparable in size.

Sorry you are correct that is a plastic priest model for 30 USD....makes no difference no one is buying an unposeable 30$ model.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ILiqJ-QbFAA/UtG5xsmrB4I/AAAAAAAAEro/6iHuZEd4XG4/s1600/Sicarian+Size+Comparison+2.JPG
maybe cut in half was an exaggeration - the point is the LR is bigger. It also has more peices. In a reasonable world the Sicarian would cost less than it.

In a reasonable world the Sicaran would cost less than a LR if they were the same material yeah. Quality issues aside, resin models are more expensive than plastic or even metal, generally. It's not like that's something unique to FW.

And whether or not people are buying the £18 plastic models, that's the price GW is pricing their models now. The SM captain and Librarian that came out with C:SM were £18. The new Necron overlord is £17. Skaven characters (basically man sized on 20mm square bases) are £13.50. The price disparity there used to be between GW and FW just isn't there anymore. FW can charge what they want, basically, because they're essentially a boutique resin model maker, a proper luxury item company. They don't expect to sell much at all, so they can pretty much charge what they want. GW likes to think it's the same, but it's really not, and they are vastly overpriced. In some countries it's cheaper or the same price to buy FW models as it is to buy GW models. And FW models are roughly the same price they've alwasy been, they only adjust prices with inflation, where as GW models have increased dramatically in price, completely independently to the rate of inflation.

Yes, FW are expensive, but not disproportionately so in the industry for resin, boutique models. GW models are disproportionately expensive in the industry.

Stranger83 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Why are you saying there illegal? Making them is illegal, but buying them isn't in the UK as far as I'm aware, is it in the US?

Formosa - KNOWING buying an unauthorised recast is indeed illegal in the UK, now if you can prove that you did not know it was a recast then legally the police would just take the item and destroy it (and no - you don't get a refund from the police and are unlike to get a refund from the people who broke the law to make it for you)

You could of cause argue that you bought it not know it was a recast - but considering FW are very clear that you can only buy direct from them this might be a difficult sell.

Of cause as with many things whilst it is illegal it is highly unlike you'll get caught, so people go ahead and do it anyway, but don't think going out and buying knockoff gear knowing that it is knockoff isn't illegal in the UK because it is.

* EDIT * The reason why it is illegal to knowing buy recasts is because it is illegal to (knowingly) support criminal activity (in the UK). So while the buying of the recasts itself isn't illegal, it is illegal to give the criminal your cash for them - I should have probably pointed this out.

All sorts of wrong right here.

Even if "supporting criminal activity" were an actual law (which I'm dubious about, but will concede that I don't have the knowledge to outright refute) recasting itself, let alone purchasing recasts, is a civil matter, not a criminal one.

Secondly, the burden of proof would be on the police - it's that whole pesky "innocent until proven guilty" thing - to prove you knew you were buying recasts, not on you to prove you didn't. It is essentially impossible to prove what someone did or didn't know at any given time, just look at Alan Merrett's testimony in the CHS case for some pretty outrageous claims that simply had no basis for contradiction, even if it is mentioned in a products description it is recast, you simply have to claim you didn't read the description fully and then it must be proven you did.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Even if "supporting criminal activity" were an actual law (which I'm dubious about, but will concede that I don't have the knowledge to outright refute) recasting itself, let alone purchasing recasts, is a civil matter, not a criminal one.

Would it come under importing counterfeits? From the gov.uk website...

"The importation of restricted goods without the correct documentation and the importation of prohibited or counterfeit goods will be dealt with as a criminal offence."

I personally don't feel Forge World products are necessarily too expensive although I will agree their shipping costs are way too high.

If I remember correctly they used to offer free shipping for orders over £100 and I think that's reasonable, but 12% of all orders up to £250 seems a bit steep.

But in terms of product prices, especially books, I don't mind their prices.

I see FW items as a treat or special project and i know I will spend a lot of time building them and painting them and feel they are value for money in this respect.

And as has been pointed out in some respects their prices are in line or better value for money than GW products.

However I can't help but feel that GW have seen the success of FW and what people are prepared to pay and ramped up their prices accordingly.

£18 for a plastic monopose clampack figure is shocking, when compared to a highly detailed resin mini from FW.

I don't have an issue with the prices on the pieces I want.

What is a donkey punch in the dick is the VAT and Shipping. Sure, over 250 is free shipping, but its damn rare that i buy that much in one go. I also absolutely hate seeing money i budget to go towards minis, not actually go towards the minis. That drives me bananas.

 Azreal13 wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Why are you saying there illegal? Making them is illegal, but buying them isn't in the UK as far as I'm aware, is it in the US?

Formosa - KNOWING buying an unauthorised recast is indeed illegal in the UK, now if you can prove that you did not know it was a recast then legally the police would just take the item and destroy it (and no - you don't get a refund from the police and are unlike to get a refund from the people who broke the law to make it for you)

You could of cause argue that you bought it not know it was a recast - but considering FW are very clear that you can only buy direct from them this might be a difficult sell.

Of cause as with many things whilst it is illegal it is highly unlike you'll get caught, so people go ahead and do it anyway, but don't think going out and buying knockoff gear knowing that it is knockoff isn't illegal in the UK because it is.

* EDIT * The reason why it is illegal to knowing buy recasts is because it is illegal to (knowingly) support criminal activity (in the UK). So while the buying of the recasts itself isn't illegal, it is illegal to give the criminal your cash for them - I should have probably pointed this out.

All sorts of wrong right here.

Even if "supporting criminal activity" were an actual law (which I'm dubious about, but will concede that I don't have the knowledge to outright refute) recasting itself, let alone purchasing recasts, is a civil matter, not a criminal one.

Secondly, the burden of proof would be on the police - it's that whole pesky "innocent until proven guilty" thing - to prove you knew you were buying recasts, not on you to prove you didn't. It is essentially impossible to prove what someone did or didn't know at any given time, just look at Alan Merrett's testimony in the CHS case for some pretty outrageous claims that simply had no basis for contradiction, even if it is mentioned in a products description it is recast, you simply have to claim you didn't read the description fully and then it must be proven you did.

No he is correct that knowingly aiding criminal activity is illegal, however recasting is ip law and not an indictable offence, obita dicta, ratio decidendi for this can be found very easily, so the worst thing that happens is a fine, the criminal element comes into it when by supporting illegal activities you knowingly support drugs etc. Hence ip warning say "you WILL be fined and MAY get a prison term" , my favourite example of a similar thing is "trespassers will be prosecuted" nope they won't, they may be fined but that it as its not indictable.

I used to want to see what the new produces were : however which has largely eliminated the clear way of the particular dodo, each release is similar to the past discharge.

StraightSilver wrote:I personally don't feel Forge World products are necessarily too expensive although I will agree their shipping costs are way too high.

If I remember correctly they used to offer free shipping for orders over £100 and I think that's reasonable, but 12% of all orders up to £250 seems a bit steep.

But in terms of product prices, especially books, I don't mind their prices.

I see FW items as a treat or special project and i know I will spend a lot of time building them and painting them and feel they are value for money in this respect.

And as has been pointed out in some respects their prices are in line or better value for money than GW products.

However I can't help but feel that GW have seen the success of FW and what people are prepared to pay and ramped up their prices accordingly.

£18 for a plastic monopose clampack figure is shocking, when compared to a highly detailed resin mini from FW.

Haight wrote:I don't have an issue with the prices on the pieces I want.

What is a donkey punch in the dick is the VAT and Shipping. Sure, over 250 is free shipping, but its damn rare that i buy that much in one go. I also absolutely hate seeing money i budget to go towards minis, not actually go towards the minis. That drives me bananas.

Now these I agree with, the shipping does annoy me. 12% is silly money for delivery and £250 for free delivery is a silly limit.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Even if "supporting criminal activity" were an actual law (which I'm dubious about, but will concede that I don't have the knowledge to outright refute) recasting itself, let alone purchasing recasts, is a civil matter, not a criminal one.

Would it come under importing counterfeits? From the gov.uk website...

"The importation of restricted goods without the correct documentation and the importation of prohibited or counterfeit goods will be dealt with as a criminal offence."

The caveat to that is under a certain value they don't care, also the goods are not counterfeit as they are not trying to claim they are real, it's a grey area that China uses a lot, and to be frank they can try to treat it as a criminal offence all they like, they still need to follow level precedent and that does not support them.

 Formosa wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Even if "supporting criminal activity" were an actual law (which I'm dubious about, but will concede that I don't have the knowledge to outright refute) recasting itself, let alone purchasing recasts, is a civil matter, not a criminal one.

Would it come under importing counterfeits? From the gov.uk website...

"The importation of restricted goods without the correct documentation and the importation of prohibited or counterfeit goods will be dealt with as a criminal offence."

The caveat to that is under a certain value they don't care, also the goods are not counterfeit as they are not trying to claim they are real, it's a grey area that China uses a lot, and to be frank they can try to treat it as a criminal offence all they like, they still need to follow level precedent and that does not support them.

I wasn't trying to suggest you would actually get done for it, simply if the question is whether or not it's illegal to buy recasts from China and have them shipped to the UK. Just because it's not enforced on smaller items doesn't make it legal.

As for whether recasts are counterfeits or not... I don't know what the legal definition of a counterfeit is, I thought doing an exact copy was sufficient to be considered a counterfeit even if you don't package it in a GW box. It'd be like burning DVD's but just writing the title on the DVD and case using a sharpie... obviously it's not trying to pass itself off as a genuine DVD from the publisher, but I'd still have thought it'd be considered counterfeit.

A counterfeit is sold as the real thing - the Chinese recasters, at least based on what I've seen, do the opposite.

So, for example, if I sell you a "Rolex" for £1500, then I'm guilty of counterfeiting, if I sell you the same thing for £30 as a reproduction, I'm merely selling a fake. I may well be impinging on IP by doing that, but I'm not guilty of counterfeiting, by my understanding.

 ImAGeek wrote:
In a reasonable world the Sicaran would cost less than a LR if they were the same material yeah. Quality issues aside, resin models are more expensive than plastic or even metal, generally. It's not like that's something unique to FW.

And whether or not people are buying the £18 plastic models, that's the price GW is pricing their models now. The SM captain and Librarian that came out with C:SM were £18. The new Necron overlord is £17. Skaven characters (basically man sized on 20mm square bases) are £13.50. The price disparity there used to be between GW and FW just isn't there anymore. FW can charge what they want, basically, because they're essentially a boutique resin model maker, a proper luxury item company. They don't expect to sell much at all, so they can pretty much charge what they want. GW likes to think it's the same, but it's really not, and they are vastly overpriced. In some countries it's cheaper or the same price to buy FW models as it is to buy GW models. And FW models are roughly the same price they've alwasy been, they only adjust prices with inflation, where as GW models have increased dramatically in price, completely independently to the rate of inflation.

Yes, FW are expensive, but not disproportionately so in the industry for resin, boutique models. GW models are disproportionately expensive in the industry.

The fact that those boutique models are, in some cases, less expensive than the standard models is a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

I am not offended by the cost of the resin 1/2 a Land Raider* being higher - resin is expensive, plastic is cheap.

And GW has produced a lot of those cheap plastic Land Raiders** - so the economy of scale also plays a part.

I have a much easier time swallowing the FW prices for their boutique resin models than do swallowing the standard GW prices for cheap mass produced plastic models.

The Auld Grump

* Driven by Eric the 1/2 a Bee....

** Cheap here is purely in regards to the cost of manufacture - the current Land Raider is, in my opinion, one of the best looking models that GW produces.

 Azreal13 wrote:
A counterfeit is sold as the real thing - the Chinese recasters, at least based on what I've seen, do the opposite.

So, for example, if I sell you a "Rolex" for £1500, then I'm guilty of counterfeiting, if I sell you the same thing for £30 as a reproduction, I'm merely selling a fake. I may well be impinging on IP by doing that, but I'm not guilty of counterfeiting, by my understanding.

Hmmm... I'm not convinced. Googling around it does seem the primary connotation of counterfeit is to deceive by violating a trademark, though it seems to me attempting to violate copyright would also constitute a counterfeit. I'd want to hear it from the mouth of someone who is familiar with the law. Reading through it on legal dictionary talks first about reproduction of packaging, but then goes on to describe what I'd consider copyright infringement similar to recasting.

Their prices would be a whole lot more acceptable if they upped their quality control, because gak.. People bitched about FineCast, but Forge World has its share of gakky casts that they sent out anyway.

Fw are expensive and come with a stigma of pay to win but really they are a better company than gw. And i wish they had high street shops because their costermer sevecice is lovely and in my opioin the best models and rules.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
A counterfeit is sold as the real thing - the Chinese recasters, at least based on what I've seen, do the opposite.

So, for example, if I sell you a "Rolex" for £1500, then I'm guilty of counterfeiting, if I sell you the same thing for £30 as a reproduction, I'm merely selling a fake. I may well be impinging on IP by doing that, but I'm not guilty of counterfeiting, by my understanding.

Hmmm... I'm not convinced. Googling around it does seem the primary connotation of counterfeit is to deceive by violating a trademark, though it seems to me attempting to violate copyright would also constitute a counterfeit. I'd want to hear it from the mouth of someone who is familiar with the law. Reading through it on legal dictionary talks first about reproduction of packaging, but then goes on to describe what I'd consider copyright infringement similar to recasting.

made in exact imitation of something valuable with the intention to deceive or defraud.
"counterfeit £10 notes"

It's the intent to deceive that is critical I think, and most recasters don't do that IME.

Forge World should drop prices,
GW should drop prices,
Forge World should hire proof readers,
GW should hire competent rules writers,
Forge World should coordinate better with code writers,
GW should rethink their whole business model,

The list goes on and on....

 e.earnshaw wrote:
Fw are expensive and come with a stigma of pay to win but really they are a better company than gw. And i wish they had high street shops because their costermer sevecice is lovely and in my opioin the best models and rules.

FW basically is pay to win right now. So many things out of their books are hands down better than anything else in it's class. IE storm eagles and sicarian battle tanks.

Not really, fixing on a few strong units that Fw make and ignoring all the other solid/decent/mediocre stuff is akin to saying GW is PTW because of Wave Serpents or Riptides.

Neither of your examples are especially broken either, just better than average.

Shouldn't this tread need a poll? to see if people actually think it is too expensive?

Personally i find it at just right. Besides the shipping costs. also apparently they goof some times and charge vats to us murcans.

Forgeworld's shipping is over priced mostly. They charge way to much to ship their stuff. %15 of your order coast for shipping?!?!?! Realy?!?!?!?

I don't get how they can charge so much for shipping and it dosen't include a bloody tracking number. Even worse in the fact that then on top of that you have a pile of shipping dues to pay since they use UPS instead of standard mail.

Feels like I could get my package sent cheaper and with a tracking number just as quick if they would give a option for standard mail.