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The easiest explanation I've seen was this. Look at Warmachine and 40k. Similar quality in detail, similar prices for minis. The problem is look at the amount of models you need to play 40k versus Warmachine, especially IG. That is why 40k is so expensive.

 Brennonjw wrote:
realistically, the price vs. entertainment gained is what people need to start looking at. People spend $150+ on a magic deck that lasts them a year or two. People spend 60 dollars on a game that often give around 60 hours of entertainment. Personally, I think war gaming (40K, Infinity, WM/H) has a great price vs. entertainment margin. I mean a 40 dollar GW kit can last you 5+ years without ever really needing to change them. Yes GW is expensive, but you don't NEED to but new models every month, just like you don't NEED to get every ps4 game, or every magic card. I feel like a large number of people who complain about the prices seem to miss that while starting an army can be expensive, it eventually gets to a point where you don't need to buy a ton of new models, just the occasional cheaper then a video game kit.

Starting an army is the key issue though, and where a lot of potential new customers are screwed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:
The easiest explanation I've seen was this. Look at Warmachine and 40k. Similar quality in detail, similar prices for minis. The problem is look at the amount of models you need to play 40k versus Warmachine, especially IG. That is why 40k is so expensive.

Which itself is due to GW trying to have their cake and eat it too. A large-scale game should be priced cheaply and made up for in volume (e.g. needing 50 figures instead of 20). A smaller scale game prices slightly more but you need less. GW tries both and that's the problem. WMH is priced for the most part appropriately for the size game it is (some kits that are still all metal are higher, but when they inevitably go to plastic they'll be cheaper). GW prices are way too high for a large-scale game.

Hint: Dont buy GW stuff, its way overpriced.

Try PP's Warmachine and Hordes. Both of these are cheap and you can buy an army for around £80-£90 as opposed to £200-£400 from GW.

Third party miniatures are also good to buy as they tend to be far cheaper and of a higher quality. Take Wargame Foundry's War of the Roses plastic sets. For £20 you can have 40 infantry as opposed to £25 for 10 from GW. Shop around.

Finally, try Bolt Action if you wish for a good 40K esque game. Whilst historical it is essentially as close to what 40K 'should' have been. Small scale skirmishes at the platoon level as opposed to the amassed battles that GW has forced on us (Something that, at this scale and with these rules, is both expensive and unwieldy).

 master of ordinance wrote:
Hint: Dont buy GW stuff, its way overpriced.

Try PP's Warmachine and Hordes. Both of these are cheap and you can buy an army for around £80-£90 as opposed to £200-£400 from GW.

Third party miniatures are also good to buy as they tend to be far cheaper and of a higher quality. Take Wargame Foundry's War of the Roses plastic sets. For £20 you can have 40 infantry as opposed to £25 for 10 from GW. Shop around.

Finally, try Bolt Action if you wish for a good 40K esque game. Whilst historical it is essentially as close to what 40K 'should' have been. Small scale skirmishes at the platoon level as opposed to the amassed battles that GW has forced on us (Something that, at this scale and with these rules, is both expensive and unwieldy).

No, GW is just as much as PP. The difference if GW uses more models, and using "hint" at the beginning and shoving your GW hate before the person gets to make their own oppinion is kind of a dick move. I agree with you on the 3rd party games and minis, and bolt action is good, though the way you word it makes it seem that you just dont like GW.

 Brennonjw wrote:
realistically, the price vs. entertainment gained is what people need to start looking at. People spend $150+ on a magic deck that lasts them a year or two. People spend 60 dollars on a game that often give around 60 hours of entertainment. Personally, I think war gaming (40K, Infinity, WM/H) has a great price vs. entertainment margin. I mean a 40 dollar GW kit can last you 5+ years without ever really needing to change them. Yes GW is expensive, but you don't NEED to but new models every month, just like you don't NEED to get every ps4 game, or every magic card. I feel like a large number of people who complain about the prices seem to miss that while starting an army can be expensive, it eventually gets to a point where you don't need to buy a ton of new models, just the occasional cheaper then a video game kit.

I absolutely agree about the value proposition of wargaming.

However, within the gamut of wargaming products, GW's products have to compete with many similar products. So the question isn't really one of whether a miniature provides more entertainment per dollar than a Magic card, but rather whether GW's miniatures provide as much entertainment per dollar as competing miniatures.

Lots of people don't think so, for the variety of reasons stated in the thread.

weeble1000 wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
realistically, the price vs. entertainment gained is what people need to start looking at. People spend $150+ on a magic deck that lasts them a year or two. People spend 60 dollars on a game that often give around 60 hours of entertainment. Personally, I think war gaming (40K, Infinity, WM/H) has a great price vs. entertainment margin. I mean a 40 dollar GW kit can last you 5+ years without ever really needing to change them. Yes GW is expensive, but you don't NEED to but new models every month, just like you don't NEED to get every ps4 game, or every magic card. I feel like a large number of people who complain about the prices seem to miss that while starting an army can be expensive, it eventually gets to a point where you don't need to buy a ton of new models, just the occasional cheaper then a video game kit.

I absolutely agree about the value proposition of wargaming.

However, within the gamut of wargaming products, GW's products have to compete with many similar products. So the question isn't really one of whether a miniature provides more entertainment per dollar than a Magic card, but rather whether GW's miniatures provide as much entertainment per dollar as competing miniatures.

Lots of people don't think so, for the variety of reasons stated in the thread.

The thing that bothers me is that, while what you say is true, why do so many people get so upset that someone else is spending money on something expensive? I am fine with comparing, but seeing people so vehemently opposed to something they don't have to even touch is just annoying. Sure, maybe they liked it in the past, and don't anymore, but why go out of the way to tell new people that it sucks?

 Brennonjw wrote:


The thing that bothers me is that, while what you say is true, why do so many people get so upset that someone else is spending money on something expensive? I am fine with comparing, but seeing people so vehemently opposed to something they don't have to even touch is just annoying. Sure, maybe they liked it in the past, and don't anymore, but why go out of the way to tell new people that it sucks?

I don't think anyone is upset you're spending money on what you enjoy. You're also going to see people opposed to buying GW products in a thread that specifically mentions GW, and GW being the largest and most expensive player. I don't know why you find it annoying; people have opinions on products and they're naturally going to share them on forums.

They're not going out of their way to tell you. They're just posting. On a forum. Where people post things. Discussions would be awfully boring if everyone agreed that GW had their prices down perfectly and everything is fine and no one should ever say anything bad.

This is a thread about pricing in wargaming. Naturally, comparisons to GW will happen, and frankly, it doesn't reflect well on GW.

The argument about value in the long run isn't wrong by any means, but it completely ignores the myriad of other options that offer an even better return on investment within the wargaming community. That's what people dislike. The cost associated with GW games is significantly higher than just about any other game on the market, and the game itself is debatably in the lower tiers of gameplay and balance. For many, the value isn't there for what GW is asking, and pointing that out in a thread discussing prices shouldn't be seen as annoying, going out of people's way, or be seen as being upset.

 Brennonjw wrote:
The thing that bothers me is that, while what you say is true, why do so many people get so upset that someone else is spending money on something expensive?

Who is upset? It's funny that you are getting upset over the idea of other people getting upset.

Sure, maybe they liked it in the past, and don't anymore, but why go out of the way to tell new people that it sucks?

You have a very strange definition of "go out of the way." This is a thread about wargaming prices and the original poster brought up GW. If posting on on topic post is going out of the way, then something is wrong with your definition of going out of the way.

Maybe ask yourself why it bothers you so much that people are saying something you don't like. Maybe you are over-identifying with the company you choose for your hobby and taking it too seriously?

To get back on topic, I think the main issues within wargaming prices are:

1) ease of entry
2) cost per miniatures
3) cost for a "full sized" game

GW has been intentionally front loading costs with higher starter and higher rulebook and codex prices to ensure they get as much money as possible up front. Other companies are doing the opposite and making sure they have all factions represented with starters and cheap or free rules. Within the historical market you have a few complete package choices, but generally rules and miniatures are disconnected so you get the rules you are interested in and the miniatures you like and the starter cost is based on those prices rather than some introductory product. Though there are introductory products for those companies offering both rules and miniatures. Sometimes these are at a savings, other times it's often better to get things separately (like getting the Bolt Action rules through a book store and buy the miniatures you want separately).

The cost per miniature is pretty much the same when you go for a proprietary sci-fi or fantasy universe. I'd argue that GW's plastic is vastly superior to Privateer's PVC so I consider GW to be a better value per miniature than Warmachine/Hordes. I think Infinity miniatures are better than GW, but they are more expensive per miniature until you start comparing them with finecast. If you are the only company that can make stuff for your game universe, you can price as if you have a monopoly. Unfortunately for GW, when they tested this in court against CHS, they failed to shut down CHS. There are now more options than ever in terms of 40k compatible miniatures. Fantasy has always been pretty generic with human armies being direct ports of historical ones, so there's lots of competition there as well. The historical market shows us what a more economically normal price for the miniatures are. They don't have the issue of proprietary universes to allow for monopoly pricing. They have to take their costs in design and manufacturing and come up with a price that gives them margins that work. On the plastic side of things they have to outsource their production so their costs are higher. And yet, the pricing structures they are coming up with show that the price per miniature can actually be shockingly low.

Cost for a full sized game is another area where GW doesn't compare very well. For those who care about the game experience first and foremost, this can be a big issue. This also builds with the entry cost as you need to get the rules/codex/whatever first. People often build armies on a project basis where they plan out their purchases or even make them all at once. The total price would seem like less of an issue if they simply stopped counting it and just bought a kit, painted it, bought another kit, painted it, etc., but I'm not going to seriously argue that the way for GW's prices to look good is to intentionally remain ignorant of what you are spending. With historicals, you set the model count dial where you want it when you select your rules. You can go for huge games with figure counts that make GW's approach look tiny, or skirmish games with a handful of miniatures per side. You can also grow your rules scope as your collection grows. This will increase the cost slightly as you get a set of rules for skirmish gaming, a set for small tactical games and another set for big games, but with the amount of free and cheap options, this will *still* cost less than the 40k rules and a codex. Even if one of the rules you end up picking is a glossy hardcover or whatever. And when you combine it with a lower per model price, the total price can stay pretty low.


.

The problem is that the folks complaining about GW games are looking at the fact that there are better games, at lower prices, that they will be playing for just as long or longer (without a new edition changing everything every few years) - so their entertainment dollars go further and the games themselves are more enjoyable.

I would rather play Deadzone than play WH40K at this point - a better game, with less expensive miniatures, and I need fewer miniatures into the bargain.

So GW still loses, even just looking at the amount of time you will be enjoying the game.

Ant that is what the folks defending GW need to keep in mind - just because GW is more expensive does not mean that it is better.

And with the latest releases of Warhammer and Warhammer 40K... they aren't even that much fun.

Enjoyment [on a scale from 1-10] * Hours Enjoyed/Price does not favor GW over other companies in the market....

The Auld Grump - sadly, I have had that formula for thirty years or more.... *EDIT* Ack!Make that forty three years!

Gw is expensive. To play the game the rules, models and codex's you need is very expensive. Too expensive however is down to your own personal perception.

For the price of a GW and the rules army I can buy a playable force and the rules for several other games and thats not even going for the cheapest options available.

That to me is worth far more than buying a single GW army is. As I get more variety in model type and game types and I can play across multiple generes with these armies including modern, sci fi, historical, fantasy etc.

I think infinity models are expensive. Almost too expensive but I like (What I have sampled) of the game system, the miniatures are fantastic in terms of quality and I don't need a huge number to play.This makes the price worth it to me. On an individual model basis most Infinity models are more expensive than your average trooper with most working out at +£6 each but when you compare them to 40k character models infinity comes out cheaper.

I think its easy to make an argument that GW isn't too expensive for you. If you feel you get your monies worth that is great. However if you are going to try to argue that GW has one of the best quality to price ratios on the market or that they are one of the better value for money miniatures companies I think you will find it very difficult to back up that statement.

I have to admit I am very skeptical of your opening posts intentions.

You compare the price of DV to Operation Ice storm but say the price you can get dark vengence from a reseller but make no attempt to do the same for ice storm. You also say this

Icestorm. 90+euro for 14 models, that probably will miss some part, paper battlefield etc.

Which is quite frankly utter nonsense. Why will Icestorm probably miss some part? Hardly anyone has had problems with missing parts with icestorm and the few that did seeemed to have very little trouble getting it replaced. (GW customer service also tends to be great at replacing parts too) it seems to me you came into the comparison with a bias that you wanted to prove.

bartman wrote:
Hello to you all.
First of all I would like to say that I'm totally new in miniature hobby, with one game behind me, but want to share my opinion about tough subject of prices.

Since I read DD and Bols everyday I see " GW prices are too high" "GW is a joke" etc. For me prices are fair enough. And i say that with all sanity of my mind. Why?
lets take Dark Vengeance and Infinity Icestorm sets.
DV retail price is 85euro, you can get for 75-80 from independent shops. contains 49 amazingly detailed models, rulebook, dice etc. 49 high quality models.
Icestorm. 90+euro for 14 models, that probably will miss some part, paper battlefield etc.

lets add Warmahorde box sets. 2player boxset 99$ retail for 20 models. legion of everblight 49.99$ for 6 models.

My point. GW has currently the best quality of models on the market. and quality cost. LEGO prices are awfully hight. 20euro for miniature Millennium Falcon. or 200euro for a big one. why its so high? because of quality. big companies dont care about "recession" or " because kid has no money". No one cares that i have no money to buy brand new house, no one cares that PS4 games are 70+euro, and probably will last for 2 evenings, or game wont be even fully developed ( assassins creed).

Quality= price. have that in mind before you start shouting that something is overpriced.
Thank you for your time.

PS: i dont work for GW

For those of us who have been around the Hobby for a while, and remember when the price of a miniature went from 50p to £1 (or, in the USA, from $1 to $1.50), the GW prices do seem excessive, considering we can also look at other Sci-Fi and Fantasy miniatures that are still a much lower price.

Even Tom Meier's miniatures, and Tom is the best miniature sculptor on the planet, or one of the Olympians who stand above all other sculptors, sell for only around $3.50 to $5.00 per miniature.

Which brings up another point.

That "GW's minis are the best......." Is rather subjective.

I can appreciate their quality, even the ones I don't find particularly attractive, but they have a bit of a narrow market, aiming at pretty much one demographic, plus any spillover.

And, then there are those of us who can do the optimization math, and see that GW MIGHT sell more miniatures with a lower price. Which is a poser of a question (what is up with their goals?).

They pretty much have a captive market, so they might be using this as a justification for their prices.

But their miniatures sell for almost as much as Museum Quality Collector's pieces that are done in limited quality, or Limited Edition Weta Collectables, signed by an industry artist.

If their miniatures are selling at prices that rival limited edition Collectables, but are mass produced.... Might there not be something wrong with their pricing?

MB

 Brennonjw wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Hint: Dont buy GW stuff, its way overpriced.

Try PP's Warmachine and Hordes. Both of these are cheap and you can buy an army for around £80-£90 as opposed to £200-£400 from GW.

Third party miniatures are also good to buy as they tend to be far cheaper and of a higher quality. Take Wargame Foundry's War of the Roses plastic sets. For £20 you can have 40 infantry as opposed to £25 for 10 from GW. Shop around.

Finally, try Bolt Action if you wish for a good 40K esque game. Whilst historical it is essentially as close to what 40K 'should' have been. Small scale skirmishes at the platoon level as opposed to the amassed battles that GW has forced on us (Something that, at this scale and with these rules, is both expensive and unwieldy).

No, GW is just as much as PP. The difference if GW uses more models, and using "hint" at the beginning and shoving your GW hate before the person gets to make their own oppinion is kind of a dick move. I agree with you on the 3rd party games and minis, and bolt action is good, though the way you word it makes it seem that you just dont like GW.

Gw is just as much as PP......? Im.... Im actually stuck for words here at the sheer ignorance displayed in those seven little words...... The entry price for GW's games is hideously high, to the point that I have had to shelve ideas for my SoB army and War of the Roses/English civil war themed Empire army. Hell, I have even been forced to shelve expanding my IG, or at least I had until I noticed Bolt Action's mini's where of the right scale. Sure, if you where looking from a purely collectors point of view then you would be partly right. The large unit boxes are around about the same price. per mini. However the blisters are far cheaper, costing around £6 - £8 on average where as GW sell there crap for around £12+. The quality of PP's blisters is also on par with/higher than GW's.

However we are not looking at this from a collectors view point. We are looking at this from a new gamers point of view. And when it comes to entry price GW is no where near friendly, unless you happen to be rich that is. Games Workshop charge a massive amount of money for there, quite frankly, sub - standard products. For instance, for the cost of one clunky, average sculpted Leman Russ I can get a 1/35 scale Churchill MK3 with interior detailing, individual track links, etched detailing components, actual springs for the suspension and a turned aluminium gun barrel, all sculpted to a far higher standard of detailing. Hell, I can get two/three 40K scale tanks from the Bolt Action range.
However I have deviated from my point. My point is that the entry price for GW is far higher than any other company.

Compare them: GW entry price - £200/£300 plus paints, glues, etc. PP entry price - £60/£80 plus paints, glue, etc. There just isnt a contest.

And for your belief that I hate GW, well you are half right. I used to love GW, I would go there every Sunday and have a good time. I had plans to build several different armies. However the new policies (you HAVE to purchase something or have a game booked or your not welcome) coupled with the higher prices drove me away. I want to like GW's games, I want to purchase there products. I want to enjoy there games. But I cant. The high prices and poorly written rules are pushing me away. The blatant codex creep, the fact that anything that hurts there precious SM's gets hit by the mother of all nerf hammers, the stupid fluff and the clunky mechanism's caused by there frantic attempts to convert what was once a small scale skirmish game into a massive amassed battle game and the resulting stupidity have all pushed me away. I still play 40K, but only against a friend whom will not touch anything else (despite his complaints about the pricing).

I want to like GW. But GW dont want to like me.

I think Warlord win this

http://store.warlordgames.com/collections/bolt-action/products/pegasus-bridge-battle-set

30 minis and a bridge. £175.

 monders wrote:
I think Warlord win this

http://store.warlordgames.com/collections/bolt-action/products/pegasus-bridge-battle-set

30 minis and a bridge. £175.

I think that is a case where you are buying a bridge, and they are throwing in some infantry with it....

Real nice bridge though.

The Auld Grump

PP stuff is still really expensive. I have yet to plop down $85 directly for one of the better units of the game, resorting to finding good used deals to bring them to sub $50. The same thing can be said for GW as they hide the real cost of a unit... 10 Space Marines on foot are basically useless in the game, so you must add another $35~$40 in the form of a transport to get the job done.

Not everyone is bonkers like me and wants 30 Bane Knights (10@$85), but to play a Space Marine army, you need at least 30 bodies and 3 transports. The pricing is very similar at MSRP, however I've found PP stuff tends to hold it's value a bit better than GW. Most likely because metal is easier to strip then plastic perhaps? *shrug*

PP is expensive for having options. If you know two lists you specifically want in a cheaper faction, like Legion of Everblight, you can get away with sub $400 for two 50 point tournament lists. I can't think of a good tournament list that's under $400 in 40k, save the days of the Draigowing.

 master of ordinance wrote:


Gw is just as much as PP......? Im.... Im actually stuck for words here at the sheer ignorance displayed in those seven little words...... The entry price for GW's games is hideously high, to the point that I have had to shelve ideas for my SoB army and War of the Roses/English civil war themed Empire army. Hell, I have even been forced to shelve expanding my IG, or at least I had until I noticed Bolt Action's mini's where of the right scale. Sure, if you where looking from a purely collectors point of view then you would be partly right. The large unit boxes are around about the same price. per mini. However the blisters are far cheaper, costing around £6 - £8 on average where as GW sell there crap for around £12+. The quality of PP's blisters is also on par with/higher than GW's.

Compare them: GW entry price - £200/£300 plus paints, glues, etc. PP entry price - £60/£80 plus paints, glue, etc. There just isnt a contest.

.

He's kinda right though.

First up, I'll Agree with you too. In terms of cost of entry, pp leads by a mile. Rulebook and starter set and off you go. I had a great little 25pt circle army up and running and doing well at tournaments for about £80 retail. But the cost of entry for a new player isn't the end of the argument. It's barely even the Beginning!

Look Beyond that initial buy in though, and the water muddies a bit.

A 35 or a 50pt army will *probably* set you back a lot less than a 1500pt 40k army. Agreed. No contest. Then again, if you also have your 'sideboard' with a half a dozen alternative casters, and a few other units/jacks/beasts to swap around for variety for your 50pt list (and let's face it, no one just plays the one list in WMH), or for use in two-list tournaments,the price for playing the game jumps up. Then again, for every cheap six beast legion list, there is something like vlad's charge of the horse lords (spammed uhlans) or anything with butcher 3 and double black dragons, and the price for warmAchine jumps up further. Please note, this isn't at a level of 'colectors', just regular 2lists. In terms of price, some things are good. Some things are overpriced. Cavalry and iron fangs spring to mind as immediate examples. Then there is but her 3 and vlad3. Both cost me quite a bit!

I've spent more on WArmachine than I've ever done on 40k. A lot more. The difference is simple. With 40k, it's all front loaded. And overpriced front loading. You need to spend a lot to get to a standard game size. With WMH, it's more 'drip feed' so it's not as noticeable. A modest initial investment. Further modest monthly purchases (second caster, second jack, new unit etc) as you slowly grow. All the time you're playing. Each purchase goes further, as each piece can radically change how your army functions. There is undeniably more in-game value. Add to this awesome apps like war room which are constantly updated and very reasonably priced, optional expansion books (cards come with the model) and the huge amount of goodwill and effort they've invested in their community and you have a winning formula. But in terms of just prices? after twelve months of playing, if you price up your purchases, you'll be surprised. It won't surprise me if your pp purchases match those of your 40k purchases.

I don't like the 'but it's cheaper' tactic. I don't like selling the game with that as my hook. (I'll sell it on great balance, great gameplay, nice models, great fluff, great support etc. But on price? No.

Yes, it can be expensive. I've regularly dropped a hundred quid or more on a handful of models. In my mind. It's intellectually dishonest to sell it as a cheaper game as it's simply not telling the full story. It's cheaper to get into, certainly, but beyond that, it can be as expensive as 40k ever was.

Also in terms of quality - let's be fair here and not whitewash things. Pp's metals are good. They're solid, but not amazing. I've had my share of dodgy sculps recently. Corvus belli get the medal for best metal. Pp (and everyone else, frankly) are nowhere close to cb. And pp's plastics, are at best, tolerable. Although I've never had huge issues with them, a lot of people have had major problems. And they're more common than should be tolerated. Although, thankfully they seem to finally be getting a handle on it, it's a bit late, as it's already tanished their reputation.

I have 3 50 point cryx lists and 2 1850 point 40k lists. I decided to price them up and see what each one cost. for 40k I included cost of main rule book at $58 and price of necessary codex. For WMH I included the cost of faction cards in the app at $7 (those give you all necessary rules for every model and tier list, the only thing the book has over that is fluff and art) and the rule book at $30.

Warmachine Cryx 50 points
Goreshade3 list - $440
Asphyxious2 list - $467
Goreshade2 list - $517

Eldar 1850 - $816
Space Wolves 1850 - $778

My cryx lists have some overlap, so I was able to buy all 3 WMH lists for less than the price of just the eldar list. The prices above are at MSRP, but now we have to factor in online discounters. The highest discount I'm aware of in the states on GW is 25% off at dicehead. On PP stuff, mini market and several others give 30% off with 40% off sales once in awhile and 50% off on the "item of the day". Now, for around $500, you can have 3 50 point, tournament winning WMH lists with all the books you need, faction dice and tokens, faction cards, even sleeves and dry erase markers. For $575-600 you can have 1 tournament winning 40k list with 0 options, the books you need and nothing else.

To make things even worse for GW, PP is now releasing a 35 point army in a box for each faction. The lists are competitive, the box includes core rulebook and tokens, contains over $200 in retail value of models and only lists for $130. With online discounters you can get that box for $100 and have a playable army and spend $7 on the app for all your faction cards. Add another $75-100 in models and you have a 50 point list which is the highest points anyone really plays. Where does $207 get you in 40k? Rules, codex and maybe 300 points of models?

 Toofast wrote:
I have 3 50 point cryx lists and 2 1850 point 40k lists. I decided to price them up and see what each one cost. for 40k I included cost of main rule book at $58 and price of necessary codex. For WMH I included the cost of faction cards in the app at $7 (those give you all necessary rules for every model and tier list, the only thing the book has over that is fluff and art) and the rule book at $30.

Warmachine Cryx 50 points
Goreshade3 list - $440
Asphyxious2 list - $467
Goreshade2 list - $517

Eldar 1850 - $816
Space Wolves 1850 - $778

My cryx lists have some overlap, so I was able to buy all 3 WMH lists for less than the price of just the eldar list. The prices above are at MSRP, but now we have to factor in online discounters. The highest discount I'm aware of in the states on GW is 25% off at dicehead. On PP stuff, mini market and several others give 30% off with 40% off sales once in awhile and 50% off on the "item of the day". Now, for around $500, you can have 3 50 point, tournament winning WMH lists with all the books you need, faction dice and tokens, faction cards, even sleeves and dry erase markers. For $575-600 you can have 1 tournament winning 40k list with 0 options, the books you need and nothing else.

To make things even worse for GW, PP is now releasing a 35 point army in a box for each faction. The lists are competitive, the box includes core rulebook and tokens, contains over $200 in retail value of models and only lists for $130. With online discounters you can get that box for $100 and have a playable army and spend $7 on the app for all your faction cards. Add another $75-100 in models and you have a 50 point list which is the highest points anyone really plays. Where does $207 get you in 40k? Rules, codex and maybe 300 points of models?

Depends. Are we arguing new or does 2nd hand count? $207 can get you a lot 2nd hand, but not much new.

You can't really use second hand, because 1; you're not always going to be able to get what you want in a condition you need, you might have to wait a while, and 2; you can buy WMH second hand too, so to use 2nd hand for GW stuff to make it cheaper is kind of a fallacious argument. And comparing 2nd hand to the $207 of Warmachine stuff, I'd rather just spend that on a brand new 50pt WM list than trawling ebay for $207 worth of 40k in God knows what condition that'll need stripping and stuff.

 ImAGeek wrote:
You can't really use second hand, because 1; you're not always going to be able to get what you want in a condition you need, you might have to wait a while, and 2; you can buy WMH second hand too, so to use 2nd hand for GW stuff to make it cheaper is kind of a fallacious argument. And comparing 2nd hand to the $207 of Warmachine stuff, I'd rather just spend that on a brand new 50pt WM list than trawling ebay for $207 worth of 40k in God knows what condition that'll need stripping and stuff.

I would hardly say you can't. I know over 15 people who have bought 40k stuff 2nd hand. I will give you it's not fair for a straight up accurate price point comparison, but the 40k used model market is probably one of the strongest elements of the hobby.

Edit: I also don't search it as much, but I rarely see the level of Warmahordes used items compared to 40k items.

Yeah, but I'm sure if you're patienf you can get WMH stuff second hand too. It's not an accurate price point comparison as you say, which makes it kind of irrelevant in a discussion about price, surely. It's like comparing the price of one with a discount from a retailer and one at full price.

The whole point of this thread is GW pricing compared to their competitors. I could say my buddy gave me his space marine army, that doesn't make 40k free. I was making a point about start up cost as that is what a new player looks at, and new players are more profitable than veterans. We need to compare MSRP of the 2 companies for everything needed to get an army to average/tournament level play which is 1850 points in 40k and 50 points in WMH plus 40k 7th E and codex and WMH MkII and faction deck. GW costs SIGNIFICANTLY more. WMH has a second hand market, it's just done more in Facebook groups and at the local shop than on ebay. I just purchased over $1,000 in Cryx plus a Battlefoam 1520XL with all the Cryx foam for $650. That's over 50% if you include the 2 sets of tokens, cryx jersey and other misc stuff he threw in.

 Toofast wrote:
I
Warmachine Cryx 50 points
Goreshade3 list - $440
Asphyxious2 list - $467
Goreshade2 list - $517

Eldar 1850 - $816
Space Wolves 1850 - $778

My cryx lists have some overlap, so I was able to buy all 3 WMH lists for less than the price of just the eldar list. The prices above are at MSRP, but now we have to factor in online discounters.

My three (butcher 3 double black dragons, butcher 2 mad dogs of war and vlad3 charge of the horselords) are costing me well over $1000 and that's with an online discont. Then again, I freely acknowledge at least one of these lists is in the upper price limit brackets. If you can get significant overlap in your list contents, as you did, it can save you quite a bit. Alas, I can't in mine.

Khador in general seem to be on the expensive side. Almost all of the cryx stuff that gets spammed is in plastic now (stupid $85 bane knights holding out in metal). Pikemen are even more ridiculous. I'm just glad my cavalry are all plastic now.

 monders wrote:
I think Warlord win this

http://store.warlordgames.com/collections/bolt-action/products/pegasus-bridge-battle-set

30 minis and a bridge. £175.

33 minis, one of them an exclusive sculpt, the bridge and a big gun. 175 GBP is pricy still, but not bad.

That bridge is pretty big too, I've seen it.

And it's not just a bridge and 33 miniatures and a gun. Also included are a big house, a bunker, a few bits and bops, a scenario booklet, decals and a gun emplacement.

And that thing is HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE.

RoninXiC wrote:
And it's not just a bridge and 33 miniatures and a gun. Also included are a big house, a bunker, a few bits and bops, a scenario booklet, decals and a gun emplacement.

And that thing is HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE.

I will admit that I lust after that bridge - I have always been a fan of choke points.

The Auld Grump... though somehow saying that 'Warlord has a bridge they want to sell you' just sounds wrong....

I'd definitely buy that if I'm in any way interested in WW2.

I think I'll be interested if they make Filipino miniatures under the Americans. Battling the Japanese. Hmmmmmmm

 jreilly89 wrote:


Edit: I also don't search it as much, but I rarely see the level of Warmahordes used items compared to 40k items.

That, in and of itself, is quite telling...