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Id toss out that I played against the power wraith list, and a decurion and destroyer cult list at LVO. They were very powerful, but so was my tournament/Waac list. I thought they both suffered badly with no obsec, and discussing how Killy they are misses the point that they still have to play the mission.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One of the reasons eldar are so nasty isn't serpents shooting its their ability to draw/win on the last turn with jetbikes, birdmen, and boosting said serpents.


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The fact that destroyers are now (sorry I'll always think of my 4th ed necrons) jet pack hurts the destroyer cult even more when it comes to missions, and they still have the old Necron weakness of "tar pitted by 5 man tac squad". THe wraiths can only make so many saves, again being tar pitted and drowned by any HTH unit with MEQ armor; making a general have to commit multiple wraith units to each combat.

ninety0ne wrote:
Id toss out that I played against the power wraith list, and a decurion and destroyer cult list at LVO. They were very powerful, but so was my tournament/Waac list. I thought they both suffered badly with no obsec, and discussing how Killy they are misses the point that they still have to play the mission.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One of the reasons eldar are so nasty isn't serpents shooting its their ability to draw/win on the last turn with jetbikes, birdmen, and boosting said serpents.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The fact that destroyers are now (sorry I'll always think of my 4th ed necrons) jet pack hurts the destroyer cult even more when it comes to missions, and they still have the old Necron weakness of "tar pitted by 5 man tac squad". THe wraiths can only make so many saves, again being tar pitted and drowned by any HTH unit with MEQ armor; making a general have to commit multiple wraith units to each combat.

Wraiths don't really get tarpitted by meq, if you somehow charge the wraiths out in the open with a tarpit meq squad, the wraiths kill 3.5 meqs so your meq squad has to be reasonably big to hold them for any length of time. Furthermore with the 12" move and fleet it's hard to catch them or no have them charge you. With T-Beamers they might just turn on your large potential tarpit unit and kill 6.66 of them, well over half a full tac squad and then finish them in your assault phase.

As for destroyers, it's harder than ever to catch them since they just boost away an average of 7" every assault phase so infantry realistically can never close on them as they on average boost more than you move.

At one time Destroyers were insanely broken. Now they are not so good .

 Dozer Blades wrote:
At one time Destroyers were insanely broken. Now they are not so good .

That is a huge stretch. If you want to argue monoliths or c'tan, sure, but destroyers? Scarabs were pretty busted in 2nd ed but is it productive to go that far back?

It has been a long time since I last posted regularly, but why not jump into the fire as they say.

My opinion on what should or shouldn't be allowed in competitive play is generally unpopular but essentially this question really comes down to the various TO's being responsible for the events they run.

GW has always and will always create rules that are out of balance for some older Codices, this will never change. So I the quest to create balanced competitive events it should fall to the TO's.

Right now in the current incarnation of 7th there is the greatest degree of balance that we have seen in ages. TO's have really stepped up over the last two years and have begun to deliver us outstanding mission packs from the BAO, NOVA, and LVO. These mission packs have given new life to older Codices with their innovative objective based scoring systems.

So that being said I guess my point is that whenever GW decides to unload some new rule, Codex, Detachment, whatever, that the best course of action is for the TO's around the county (world) to begin working on those said missions to accommodate what is being thrown at us rather than the short-sighted view of just banning what we don't like or understand. It is hard work, but as we have seen recently in the big RTT type tourneys it is gratifying in the end.

 Inquisitor Lord Cuthbert wrote:
Right now in the current incarnation of 7th there is the greatest degree of balance that we have seen in ages. TO's have really stepped up over the last two years and have begun to deliver us outstanding mission packs from the BAO, NOVA, and LVO. These mission packs have given new life to older Codices with their innovative objective based scoring systems.

So that being said I guess my point is that whenever GW decides to unload some new rule, Codex, Detachment, whatever, that the best course of action is for the TO's around the county (world) to begin working on those said missions to accommodate what is being thrown at us rather than the short-sighted view of just banning what we don't like or understand. It is hard work, but as we have seen recently in the big RTT type tourneys it is gratifying in the end.

It's for these same reasons that I have bowed out of the tourney scene years ago, when I left my last Adepticon.

I agree with you that TO's are responsible for running great events, that has always been the case and a well run event encourages repeat players. The TOs have also done an amazing job creating an environment that that allows players access to most, if not all, of their rules. I'm still a supporter of tournaments and follow the events in my spare time. Tournaments are great because you have to play to your armies strengths instead of tailoring your lists, and you are guaranteed games instead of dealing with trying to find someone to play for a pick up.

Where I disagree? These events cater to a specific group of players that want these type of events, and it's these types of players that keep coming back. I feel that a lot of these events are still not up to the current edition. Yes, I understand that they have to put restrictions in there. I would do the same if I were to run events. It would then be up to those attending my events to decide if they want to come back... I'm not arguing that my way is better, just why I've walked away.

It's just reached the point where I'm tired of hearing how 'balanced' the LVO/ITC/Adepticon/etc scenarios are, when they aren't, and I'm tired of playing scenarios that just aren't fun. It's gotten to the point where I'm being treated like a bad player for just wanting to run straight out of the book. It's also gotten to the point where I don't get a game if I'm not willing to play those Rules/Sceanrios, over the ones in the BRB.

It's exceedingly frustrating, since I haven't had a local group for several years now. I only get to play 1-2x a month if I'm lucky enough to get the time off. I usually have to end up driving over 2 Hours away (even had to Island Hop for a few years). I go on last minute notice so hope to find a pick up game when I get to where I am going, but only plan on it AFTER finding out when that FLGS 40k night is. Then I've had to sit around for a few hours trying to get a game. Now when I hear they want to play one of the event scenarios, which aren't fun, and they aren't even practicing or planning to go to the event, it feels like a huge wasted effort.

 Akar wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Cuthbert wrote:
Right now in the current incarnation of 7th there is the greatest degree of balance that we have seen in ages. TO's have really stepped up over the last two years and have begun to deliver us outstanding mission packs from the BAO, NOVA, and LVO. These mission packs have given new life to older Codices with their innovative objective based scoring systems.

So that being said I guess my point is that whenever GW decides to unload some new rule, Codex, Detachment, whatever, that the best course of action is for the TO's around the county (world) to begin working on those said missions to accommodate what is being thrown at us rather than the short-sighted view of just banning what we don't like or understand. It is hard work, but as we have seen recently in the big RTT type tourneys it is gratifying in the end.

It's for these same reasons that I have bowed out of the tourney scene years ago, when I left my last Adepticon.

I agree with you that TO's are responsible for running great events, that has always been the case and a well run event encourages repeat players. The TOs have also done an amazing job creating an environment that that allows players access to most, if not all, of their rules. I'm still a supporter of tournaments and follow the events in my spare time. Tournaments are great because you have to play to your armies strengths instead of tailoring your lists, and you are guaranteed games instead of dealing with trying to find someone to play for a pick up.

Where I disagree? These events cater to a specific group of players that want these type of events, and it's these types of players that keep coming back. I feel that a lot of these events are still not up to the current edition. Yes, I understand that they have to put restrictions in there. I would do the same if I were to run events. It would then be up to those attending my events to decide if they want to come back... I'm not arguing that my way is better, just why I've walked away.

It's just reached the point where I'm tired of hearing how 'balanced' the LVO/ITC/Adepticon/etc scenarios are, when they aren't, and I'm tired of playing scenarios that just aren't fun. It's gotten to the point where I'm being treated like a bad player for just wanting to run straight out of the book. It's also gotten to the point where I don't get a game if I'm not willing to play those Rules/Sceanrios, over the ones in the BRB.

It's exceedingly frustrating, since I haven't had a local group for several years now. I only get to play 1-2x a month if I'm lucky enough to get the time off. I usually have to end up driving over 2 Hours away (even had to Island Hop for a few years). I go on last minute notice so hope to find a pick up game when I get to where I am going, but only plan on it AFTER finding out when that FLGS 40k night is. Then I've had to sit around for a few hours trying to get a game. Now when I hear they want to play one of the event scenarios, which aren't fun, and they aren't even practicing or planning to go to the event, it feels like a huge wasted effort.

Have you actually checked out the latest NOVA scenarios? In terms of balance, by their nature, it' shard for them not to be.

Every tournament will enforce a meta of some kind, by the a nature of the state of 40k married with the FAQ that they choose to use. NOVA last year was very kind to drop pod marine spam, for example. I have to say in the favor of the LVO that there was an incredible amount of parity at the very top.

Whether or not someone enjoys what those missions are, however, is a different matter entirely. I think Decurion has the potential to be very strong. I'm not convinced that the list-building restrictions and the synergy between the formations is better than just taking a standard CAD + 1 formation, but time will tell.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Banning them all because you don't like a couple isn't a solution. It's like the ostrich sticking its head in the sand.

Eh. GW doesn't balance its game for tournaments. Sometimes it seems like they don't balance their game at all. This creates a large burden on tournament organizers to try to pick up the slack. It's less sticking your head in the sand and more trying to create a fun, at least somewhat fair environment without giving a huge advantage to any one faction. If the winner of a tournament is a forgone conclusion based on list construction alone (caveat: assuming everyone involved is at least a competent player and knows how to build an effective list), it's less fun for everyone involved. Tournament organizers do the best they can. They don't always get it right.