The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**A Town Called Malus**

Frazzled wrote:
jasper76 wrote:
Yeah, the GOP needs to bone up on science...I think the kids these days are smart and know to trust scientists rather than preachers and business interests on an issue as potentially deleterious to their future as the warming of the planet. And that this is a partisan red tribe-blue tribe issue is amazing to me...it's a generic security issue, like leaded gasoline was.

The same scientists that brought us the Bomb, nerve gas, the Holocaust, GM food, predicted global cooling/now global warming/now 'climate change", can't get their story straight on whether anything in particular is good or bad for you, and have a definite financial interest in whatever they are saying?

No, I don't like bigots whose primary goal is replacing our secular government with a Christian theocracy that the worst Islamic theocracies would envy. Why any decent person would like them, I have no idea.

And what particular theocracy is this?

Scientists have always used the term climate change. It is tabloids trying to spin scare stories who have flip-flopped, not the science.

The atomic bomb was also probably the greatest scientific breakthrough of the 20th century. It is just a shame that politicians misused it, just like they misuse science now. A prime example being politicians who support anti-vaccine groups which are always based on faulty studies.

Also, GM food has, as far as I know, not been linked to any health problems which are not also present in the non-GM food. And blaming scientists for the Holocaust is so far off the mark as to be insulting. The holocaust was a result of politicians misusing faulty research to further their own ends.

**Frazzled**

The atomic bomb was also probably the greatest scientific breakthrough of the 20th century. It is just a shame that politicians misused it,

They didn't misue it. They used it for its intended purpose.

All those nice cancer causing processed foods, additives, and chemicals were developed by scientists.

**ScootyPuffJunior**

Frazzled wrote:
All those nice cancer causing processed foods, additives, and chemicals were developed by scientists.

Yes, because no natural products have ever been known to cause cancer.

**jasper76**

Frazzled wrote:
The atomic bomb was also probably the greatest scientific breakthrough of the 20th century. It is just a shame that politicians misused it,

They didn't misue it. They used it for its intended purpose.

All those nice cancer causing processed foods, additives, and chemicals were developed by scientists.

Science is just a tool. Think of a shovel. It can be used to dig a nice hole for your garden, or to beat someone over the head with.

The same tool that brought us the atom bomb also brought us smartphones, vaccines, cars, trips to the moon....you get my point.

**BlaxicanX**

Just like guns.

Please stop feeding into Frazzled's boredome-induced contrarianism. He knows that crucifying science for the advent of the holocaust and nuclear war is stupid, he just doesn't care at the moment.

**Dreadclaw69**

Looks like the IRS saga will continue
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/oct/27/house-gop-begins-impeachment-against-irs-chief/

House Oversight and Government Reform Committee Chairman Jason Chaffetz began the impeachment process against IRS Commissioner John Koskinen on Tuesday, accusing him of misleading the public and destroying documents that were sought under a congressional subpoena.

It was the latest move in the battle over the targeting of tea party groups at the tax agency.

Less than a week earlier, the Justice Department issued a report finding no criminal behavior in the decision by top IRS officials to subject conservative groups to intrusive scrutiny.

Among the specific charges leveled by Mr. Chaffetz and 18 of his fellow Republicans on the committee were that Mr. Koskinen, appointed by President Obama in December 2013 after the targeting scandal broke, misled Congress when he said he had turned over all of former IRS senior executive Lois G. Lerner’s emails and that he oversaw destruction of evidence when his agency got rid of backup tapes that contained the emails.

It was unclear how far the resolution would go in a Congress preoccupied with so many other fights and with little more than a year to go in President Obama’s tenure.

The impeachment resolution says the IRS knew as early as February 2014 that Ms. Lerner’s messages were missing as the result of a reported computer hard drive crash, but the agency didn’t notify Congress until June and the backup tapes were destroyed in March.

Rep. Elijah E. Cummings of Maryland, the ranking Democrat on the oversight committee, said the accusations against Mr. Koskinen were baseless and the impeachment drive was a waste of time and taxpayer money.

“This ridiculous resolution will demonstrate nothing but the Republican obsession with diving into investigative rabbit holes that waste tens of millions of taxpayer dollars while having absolutely no positive impact on a single American,” the Maryland Democrat said. “Calling this resolution a ‘stunt’ or a ‘joke’ would be insulting to stunts and jokes.”

The IRS released a brief, unsigned statement: “The IRS vigorously disputes the allegations in the resolution. We have fully cooperated with all of the investigations.”

Hours before the impeachment resolution was introduced, Mr. Koskinen told a Senate hearing that he has taken steps to try to clean up the mess left by the targeting scandal.

“The chain of command all the way down has changed. There are new people that have gone through, and we’ve pursued appropriate disciplinary review as needed,” Mr. Koskinen said.

He also acknowledged that his agency is still holding up a “handful” of tea party groups’ applications for nonprofit status, including one that has been waiting for nearly six years, The Washington Times reported this week.

He also said he hopes to have rules to limit political activities of nonprofit organizations in place before the general election next year, raising the specter of another major fight over the tax agency and political targeting.

Mr. Koskinen took over at the IRS after the May 2013 revelation that agency employees singled tea party and conservative groups out for special scrutiny, asking intrusive questions and delaying their applications for nonprofit status well beyond reasonable times. Ms. Lerner took administrative leave that month and resigned her post four months later.

The Obama administration said part of the problem was that the rules were too confusing, leaving the nonprofit groups and IRS auditors uncertain about what activity was allowed.

The IRS has tried a rewrite of those rules that would have prohibited nonprofit groups from conducting voter registration drives or hosting candidate forums. Overwhelming public opposition forced Mr. Koskinen to abandon that proposal, but he said Tuesday that he would try again.

“We would hope that we’d be able to provide these proposed new rules early enough next year so that they could — the work on them can be completed well in advance of the election so there wouldn’t be any confusion,” he said. “But I would stress that the work that we’re doing now is focused on clarifying — not changing — but clarifying the rules under which organizations operate.”

Finance Committee Chairman Orrin G. Hatch, Utah Republican, told Mr. Koskinen that seemed like a waste of time and money when the IRS is already struggling to handle taxpayers’ phone calls during filing season and losing billions of dollars a year to tax fraud.

Mr. Hatch said he would push to impose more restrictions on IRS employees engaging in political activities outside of work. He also said he would try to dent the influence of the labor union representing IRS employees, which the senator suspected of helping feed the tea party targeting.

“Our overall goal here should be to restore the credibility of the IRS and ensure that this very powerful agency treats all American taxpayers fairly,” Mr. Hatch said.

He and other senators were critical of the IRS decision to award bonuses to some of the officials involved in “bad decisions” that led to the targeting.

“The targeting scandal, coupled with poor customer service and general mismanagement, has shaken what confidence taxpayers had in the IRS,” said Sen. Chuck Grassley, Iowa Republican. “To move beyond this, Congress and the IRS are going to have to work together to make the necessary changes to ensure similar abuses can never happen again.”

**dogma**

Chaffetz got 18 signatures from a committee with 25 Republicans. That is impressively bad.

**d-usa**

Considering that they are already talking about impeaching Hillary Clinton, this is not surprising.

**Ouze**

dogma wrote:
Chaffetz got 18 signatures from a committee with 25 Republicans. That is impressively bad.

After how the Benghazi hearings went down, I wouldn't want to reserve a seat on that clown car, either.

**Peregrine**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Looks like the IRS saga will continue
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/oct/27/house-gop-begins-impeachment-against-irs-chief/

Of course it's going to continue, because it has too much political value for the republican party to give it up. There is no possible investigation result that will make them say "well, I guess the IRS did nothing wrong" so they're going to continue to make a big show of investigating until a new administration finally comes in and makes the whole thing irrelevant.

**Frazzled**

ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
All those nice cancer causing processed foods, additives, and chemicals were developed by scientists.
Yes, because no natural products have ever been known to cause cancer.

Mmm...outside of uranium, what would those be?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

jasper76 wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
The atomic bomb was also probably the greatest scientific breakthrough of the 20th century. It is just a shame that politicians misused it,

They didn't misue it. They used it for its intended purpose.

All those nice cancer causing processed foods, additives, and chemicals were developed by scientists.

Science is just a tool. Think of a shovel. It can be used to dig a nice hole for your garden, or to beat someone over the head with.

The same tool that brought us the atom bomb also brought us smartphones, vaccines, cars, trips to the moon....you get my point.

Scientists are just tools too, bound by their financial interest. Scientists did just fine in the USSR and Nazi Germany. Yes I called it, time to wield the Godwin Hammer!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BlaxicanX wrote:
Just like guns.

Please stop feeding into Frazzled's boredome-induced contrarianism. He knows that crucifying science for the advent of the holocaust and nuclear war is stupid, he just doesn't care at the moment.

"I have become Death, the Destroyer of worlds."

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ouze wrote:
dogma wrote:
Chaffetz got 18 signatures from a committee with 25 Republicans. That is impressively bad.

After how the Benghazi hearings went down, I wouldn't want to reserve a seat on that clown car, either.

This to me is actually much more relevant. The threat of internal government organs being used to oppress political opposition is the hallmark of a banana republic. The fact there has been no punitive action taken speaks volumes.

Of course its hard to find where discipline has occurred to anyone in government....ever.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Frazzled wrote:
ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
All those nice cancer causing processed foods, additives, and chemicals were developed by scientists.
Yes, because no natural products have ever been known to cause cancer.

Mmm...outside of uranium, what would those be?

Thorium.

More seriously, oxygen, meat, your own cells growing too old.

What is the alternative to building our society on the scientific method? Trial and error?

**Frazzled**

I have no problem with scientific method. I have a problem with setting scientists up to be the new priesthood. They've a proven capacity to walk hand in hand with the tyrant, and they are easily manipulated by money or ideology.

**the Signless**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
All those nice cancer causing processed foods, additives, and chemicals were developed by scientists.
Yes, because no natural products have ever been known to cause cancer.

Mmm...outside of uranium, what would those be?

Thorium.

More seriously, oxygen, meat, your own cells growing too old.

Sunlight, tobbacco, asbestos, arsenic, and radon.

Oxygen is a pretty dangerous chemical as it is a powerful oxidizer capable of messing with molecules that with which it interacts. The production of oxygen is responsible for the first extinction level event, the Great Oxygenation Event, which wiped out a lot of the cyanobacteria before aerobic bacteria could evolve. There is a reason why so many people advertise the anti-oxidant effects of their health products, that stuff should be banned.

What is the alternative to building our society on the scientific method? Trial and error?

A theocracy has been proposed. Another alternative is go full 40K and declare that new ideas and research are evil while forgetting the knowledge of the past and telling stories of when a small, infected scratch didn't result in us having to cut a gangrenous leg off.

**Frazzled**

How about what we have now, an enlightened society where we don't trust anyone.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, good old tobacco is not that cancerous. Of course in its natural state its just a weed.

Its all that crap they put into cigarettes with it.

Radon-of course thats dangerous. Its an anagram for...Rodan!!!!

**motyak**

This whole cancerous thing seems unrelated to politics. And there is a whole thread related to that where you can take your whole "scientists/holocaust/atomic warfare" ramble...wait no, no you can't. It's off topic there as well. Probably best to just stop it entirely.

**Frazzled**

I find your lack of faith in the politics of bacon...disturbing...

To get this back on topic, whats with the Whitehouse publicly disagreeing with the Chief of FBI on the rise in crime currently? Didn't the Hoover/Kennedy scenario teach all Administrations to never mess with the FBI?

**dogma**

Frazzled wrote:

This to me is actually much more relevant. The threat of internal government organs being used to oppress political opposition is the hallmark of a banana republic. The fact there has been no punitive action taken speaks volumes.

The case against the IRS is rather weak, as it acted within the letter of law.

**Frazzled**

Acting within the law doesn't mean it was ethical nor not politically motivated.

The Democrats should be careful. two can and will play at that game.

**Gordon Shumway**

Frazzled wrote:
Acting within the law doesn't mean it was ethical nor not politically motivated.

The Democrats should be careful. two can and will play at that game.

Actually, in this case, that is exactly what that means considering it is illegal to use the irs as a political tool. Evidently, the justice dept. didn't see that going on (mostly incompetence). Good thing the GOP is having hearings to get to the bottom of the matter

(interestingly, politically motivated hearings are not illegal--two already do play that game).

**Ahtman**

In an attempt to double down on silly decisions to further alienate great swaths of people while keeping gridlock alive and well, the Republicans nominated Paul Ryan their Speaker of the House.

**LordofHats**

Ahtman wrote:
In an attempt to double down on silly decisions to further alienate great swaths of people while keeping gridlock alive and well, the Republicans nominated Paul Ryan their Speaker of the House.

The GOP needs a new slogan;

Spoiler:

**dogma**

Frazzled wrote:
Acting within the law doesn't mean it was ethical nor not politically motivated.

Chaffetz couldn't get the entirety of his Party on board for an impeachment hearing against an easily demonized government organization that is ostensibly run by the opposition. Given that, the case seems rather weak.

**Frazzled**

Gordon Shumway wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Acting within the law doesn't mean it was ethical nor not politically motivated.

The Democrats should be careful. two can and will play at that game.

Actually, in this case, that is exactly what that means considering it is illegal to use the irs as a political tool. Evidently, the justice dept. didn't see that going on (mostly incompetence). Good thing the GOP is having hearings to get to the bottom of the matter (interestingly, politically motivated hearings are not illegal--two already do play that game).

A DOJ that controlled by the admin? Yea...ok

**Gordon Shumway**

Ahtman wrote:
In an attempt to double down on silly decisions to further alienate great swaths of people while keeping gridlock alive and well, the Republicans nominated Paul Ryan their Speaker of the House.

While I Agee, Ryan is not an ideal pick, any other people in the party that could do any better? Heck, when you have minority leader Pelosi offering more praise to his selection than some in his own party or right wing radio shock jocks, you know not is well in Denmark.*

*and by Denmark, I mean the US house of Rep.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:
Gordon Shumway wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Acting within the law doesn't mean it was ethical nor not politically motivated.

The Democrats should be careful. two can and will play at that game.

Actually, in this case, that is exactly what that means considering it is illegal to use the irs as a political tool. Evidently, the justice dept. didn't see that going on (mostly incompetence). Good thing the GOP is having hearings to get to the bottom of the matter (interestingly, politically motivated hearings are not illegal--two already do play that game).

A DOJ that controlled by the admin? Yea...ok

I'm not disagreeing here, just pointing out that legality and politics is connected in this case.

**Ouze**

Surprised Ryan would pick the speaker slot. It seems like the worst job in politics.

**Ensis Ferrae**

motyak wrote:
This whole cancerous thing seems unrelated to politics. And there is a whole thread related to that where you can take your whole "scientists/holocaust/atomic warfare" ramble...wait no, no you can't. It's off topic there as well. Probably best to just stop it entirely.

I'm no Tea Partier... but I sure as gak ain't payin' taxes so that I can see a .gov website running an anti-smoking campaign

(seriously, most anti-smoking ads these days are .gov) I mean, seriously, I think it'd be better if the NSA put out PSAs that simply said, "Trust Us"

**CptJake**

Ensis Ferrae wrote:

I'm no Tea Partier... but I sure as gak ain't payin' taxes so that I can see a .gov website running an anti-smoking campaign (seriously, most anti-smoking ads these days are .gov) I mean, seriously, I think it'd be better if the NSA put out PSAs that simply said, "Trust Us"

But in this day and age, if the Federal Gov't did not tell you smoking was bad, how could you possibly find out?

It is just a tiny symptom of the Federal gov't being the proposed/provided solution to almost everything.

**Tannhauser42**

Frazzled wrote:
Gordon Shumway wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Acting within the law doesn't mean it was ethical nor not politically motivated.

The Democrats should be careful. two can and will play at that game.

Actually, in this case, that is exactly what that means considering it is illegal to use the irs as a political tool. Evidently, the justice dept. didn't see that going on (mostly incompetence). Good thing the GOP is having hearings to get to the bottom of the matter (interestingly, politically motivated hearings are not illegal--two already do play that game).

A DOJ that controlled by the admin? Yea...ok

To be fair, most of the people doing the actual investigating aren't political appointees, and were there before the current admin and will be there after the current admin.

**Frazzled**

But their bosses are.