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Optioning yourself out of a dedicated transport is not the same as an optionless Praetorian being given explicit permission to select a dedicated transport and the rules supporting deploying in the Night Scythe.
Why? I see no basis ion the rules for saying that. If your line of argument is correct, it's completely irrelevant as to whether the inability to begin embarked is done via an option or not. Feel free to point out why they're different.
If you guys are going to defeat obvious RAW and obvious RAI by rules lawyering then let's play it that we don't get invulnerability saves.
Are you seriously arguing that other people are rules lawyering when the intent is not clear (it could very well have been a mistake, there are enough in any given codex) and your entire point hinges around "being embarked" doesn't mean the rules for "embarking" apply? Come on, yoou could at least try to not be massively disingenuous.
We aren't embarking. We are deploying the Praetorians inside the dedicated transport as per the rules.
You are beginning embarked. Do I really need to quote all of the relevant rules here? I was trying to avoid this, because your entire argument is obtuse.
TRANSPORTS: Each transport has a maximum passenger capacity that can never be exceeded. A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as the are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity. The entire unit must be embarked on the transport if any part of it is - a unit cannot be partially embarked or spread across multiple Transports.
Only Infantry models can embark upon Transports (this does not include Jump or Jet Pack Infantry), unless specifically stated otherwise.
DEPLOYMENT: [...] models must either deploy within their deployment zone, or be held back in Reserve. Models can be deployed ‘inside’ buildings, fortifications, or Transport vehicles in their deployment zone, subject to their Transport Capacity. Units may not be deployed in impassable terrain. Note that models must be deployed fully within their deployment zone: you can’t have part of a model inside the deployment zone and part of the model outside it!
Here are all the things which MUST hold true for your argument to be correct: 1) Being embarked ignores all restrictions of embarking
2) Embarking and being embarked follow two completely unique sets of restrictions
3) Being deployed inside something does not count as embarking upon a transport
4) You can be embarked upon something without ever embarking
If 1) fails, than you can never put jump infantry into a transport unless explicitly allowed. If 2) fails, jump infantry cannot disembark, as this requires being embarked. If 3) fails, you are subject to the exemption of jump infantry for embarkation. If 4) fails, you are unable to deploy any unit beginning inside a transport at all, remaining stuck inside the vehicle.
If all of these do hold true, there is NOTHING stopping units buying things which would otherwise make them unable to enter a transport, then deploying inside that transport at deployment. Ergo the example of space marine bikers sitting in a Rhino is not in any way restricted by your argument. And yet you accuse others of rules lawyering and ignoring RAI? To any reasonably minded person, being embarked upon a vehicle means "to have boarded a ship, aircraft, or other vehicle, as for a journey". How then can you qualify as embarked without embarking? Either you cede that deployment inside a vehicle qualifies as embarking, or you have to ignore all meaningful definitions of the word embarked. If you don't do the former, you cannot put Praetorians in a Night Scythe. If you don't do the latter you can never disembark from the Night Scythe anyway.
Your argument is demonstrably false, your evidence flawed and your stubbornness hinges on the English language holding no meaning whatsoever. No reasonable person can assume you are embarked without undergoing embarkation. Ergo, deploying inside a vehicle qualifies as embarkation, ergo it exempts you from deploying inside a transport of any kind if you cannot embark upon that transport. This is the way it has worked for the past 5 editions now. To even debate this further is pointless, you just cannot argue that you can be embarked and yet not follow the rules for embarking because the rules don't explicitly call the process of deploying inside a vehicle embarking. It's beyond absurd.
Do you allow models to take invulnerability saves? You are guilty of nitpicking and rules lawyering here, so you would need to apply such stringency across all the rules for such nitpicking and rules lawyering to be considered and one consequence would be the loss of invulnerability saves.
The reality is that the rules are not written with precision. If you want to hold them up as unquestionable then feel free to disallow invulnerability saves.
Otherwise we will avoid arguments that rules lawyer and deal with the imprecision involved in Praetorians deploying inside their own dedicated transport and go forward with the obvious and implement the clear line of permission as I have shown.
col_impact wrote: Otherwise we will avoid arguments that rules lawyer and deal with the imprecision involved in Praetorians deploying inside their own dedicated transport and go forward with the obvious and implement the clear line of permission as I have shown.
So your only argument, literally, is that other rules don't make sense, so your interpretation must be correct?
That's the very definition of a RAI argument. You have no actual rules support.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
Looking at the Jump Infantry entry, I find the following statement: "Jump units therefor share two sets of rules, the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type. Jump infantry would, for example, follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry." Looking at the Transport rules I see: "A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit..." Looking at these two rules I believe Praetorians can embark, RAW, into the NIghtscythe. The Transport rules do not give a limitation it gives a permission to Infantry units. As Jump infantry follow both Jump rules and Infantry rules they gain permission to embark.
Edit: Of course I can keep reading...... I hate GW.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/01 18:00:31
ADD causes my posts to ramble from time to time. Please bear with me.
The underlined above is a contradiction:
You say "infantry only". Jump and Jet infantry are not "infantry only".
They are types of infantry, so they would be allowed to embark if not for the passage a bit further down about jump and jet infantry being disallowed from embarking unless specifically allowed.
They are not prohibited by the earlier passage like non-infantry and units that exceed the transport capacity.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gravmyr wrote: Looking at the Jump Infantry entry, I find the following statement: "Jump units therefor share two sets of rules, the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type. Jump infantry would, for example, follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry." Looking at the Transport rules I see: "A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit..." Looking at these two rules I believe Praetorians can embark, RAW, into the NIghtscythe. The Transport rules do not give a limitation it gives a permission to Infantry units. As Jump infantry follow both Jump rules and Infantry rules they gain permission to embark.
If you look a bit further down it does say jump and jet infantry cannot embark "unless specifically stated otherwise".
The pro-transport side think giving a unit of jump infantry a DT counts as specifically stating they are allowed to be transported by it.
The anti-transport people say it's not specific enough.
So then the pro-transport side says they are not embarking they are just deployed on it and there are no rules stopping that.
Then the anti-transport side says this is nitpicking and rules-lawyering.
And then the pro side points out that the anti side was nitpicking and rules-lawyering when they were arguing over the meaning of the word "specifically", so they kind of deserve it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/01 18:02:25
If you want specific permission, just look to the rules for Stormravens, where it gives explicit permission for jump infantry to embark. The rules for Praetorians gives you implied permission at best, but it isn't RAW by any stretch.
jy2 wrote: If you want specific permission, just look to the rules for Stormravens, where it gives explicit permission for jump infantry to embark. The rules for Praetorians gives you implied permission at best, but it isn't RAW by any stretch.
You are missing the point. I have permission to deploy the Praetorians inside the Night Scythe and I am at no point embarking them or having to deal with any restrictions for embarking them. If they wind up being effectively embarked when they are deployed within the Night Scythe it was an after the fact consequence of deploying but I have clear permission to deploy them inside the Night Scythe as long as I satisfy capacity restrictions.
RAW I can put the Praetorians in the Night Scythe at deployment. No rule is preventing that.
jy2 wrote: If you want specific permission, just look to the rules for Stormravens, where it gives explicit permission for jump infantry to embark. The rules for Praetorians gives you implied permission at best, but it isn't RAW by any stretch.
You are missing the point. I have permission to deploy the Praetorians inside the Night Scythe and I am at no point embarking them or having to deal with any restrictions for embarking them. If they wind up being effectively embarked when they are deployed within the Night Scythe it was an after the fact consequence of deploying but I have clear permission to deploy them inside the Night Scythe as long as I satisfy capacity restrictions.
RAW I can put the Praetorians in the Night Scythe at deployment. No rule is preventing that.
Can you post a citation of which rules give you an explicit permission to ignore the jump infantry restriction in the BRB? Needs to be worded similarly to the Storm Raven permission. I'll wait while you post it.
For context, here is the entirety of the rules in the Triarch Praetorians unit entry... "May select a Night Scythe as a dedicated transport."
From the Night Scythe unit entry... "Transport Capacity: 15 Models"
Your explicit permission needs to be in one of those two quotes. Just point out which it is. I'm obviously missing something.
Until then, Jump Infantry can't be embarked upon a Night Scythe as the Night Scythe can't transport Jump Infantry.
as long as I satisfy capacity restrictions.
I agree. However, the Jump Infantry capacity of a Night Scythe is ZERO... so kinda hard to satisfy that restriction.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/01 19:02:29
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jy2 wrote: If you want specific permission, just look to the rules for Stormravens, where it gives explicit permission for jump infantry to embark. The rules for Praetorians gives you implied permission at best, but it isn't RAW by any stretch.
You are missing the point. I have permission to deploy the Praetorians inside the Night Scythe and I am at no point embarking them or having to deal with any restrictions for embarking them. If they wind up being effectively embarked when they are deployed within the Night Scythe it was an after the fact consequence of deploying but I have clear permission to deploy them inside the Night Scythe as long as I satisfy capacity restrictions.
RAW I can put the Praetorians in the Night Scythe at deployment. No rule is preventing that.
Can you post a citation of which rules give you an explicit permission to ignore the jump infantry restriction in the BRB? Needs to be worded similarly to the Storm Raven permission. I'll wait while you post it.
For context, here is the entirety of the rules in the Triarch Praetorians unit entry... "May select a Night Scythe as a dedicated transport."
From the Night Scythe unit entry... "Transport Capacity: 15 Models"
Your explicit permission needs to be in one of those two quotes. Just point out which it is. I'm obviously missing something.
Until then, Jump Infantry can't be embarked upon a Night Scythe as the Night Scythe can't transport Jump Infantry.
as long as I satisfy capacity restrictions.
I agree. However, the Jump Infantry capacity of a Night Scythe is ZERO... so kinda hard to satisfy that restriction.
Point out at what point in the rules am I embarking them when I deploy the Praetorians in the Night Scythe. Page and paragraph please.
I have permission to deploy them in the Night Scythe.
Spoiler:
Dedicated Transports
Sometimes a unit entry will include a transport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected together with the unit. These Dedicated Transports do not use up a slot on the force organisation chart, but count as having the same role as the unit they were bought for all other rules purposes.
For example, a Rhino bought for a Space Marine Tactical Squad (troops) counts as a unit of troops, but one bought for a unit of Space Marine Sternguard Veteran Squad (elites) counts as elites.
Other vehicles may also have a Transport Capacity, but they are chosen separately as normal, have a role and occupy a force organisation chart slot of their own.
The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it). After the game begins, it can then transport any friendly Infantry unit, subject to Transport Capacity and other special exclusions, as explained in the vehicle’s entry.
jy2 wrote: If you want specific permission, just look to the rules for Stormravens, where it gives explicit permission for jump infantry to embark. The rules for Praetorians gives you implied permission at best, but it isn't RAW by any stretch.
You are missing the point. I have permission to deploy the Praetorians inside the Night Scythe and I am at no point embarking them or having to deal with any restrictions for embarking them. If they wind up being effectively embarked when they are deployed within the Night Scythe it was an after the fact consequence of deploying but I have clear permission to deploy them inside the Night Scythe as long as I satisfy capacity restrictions.
RAW I can put the Praetorians in the Night Scythe at deployment. No rule is preventing that.
Can you post a citation of which rules give you an explicit permission to ignore the jump infantry restriction in the BRB? Needs to be worded similarly to the Storm Raven permission. I'll wait while you post it.
For context, here is the entirety of the rules in the Triarch Praetorians unit entry... "May select a Night Scythe as a dedicated transport."
From the Night Scythe unit entry... "Transport Capacity: 15 Models"
Your explicit permission needs to be in one of those two quotes. Just point out which it is. I'm obviously missing something.
Until then, Jump Infantry can't be embarked upon a Night Scythe as the Night Scythe can't transport Jump Infantry.
as long as I satisfy capacity restrictions.
I agree. However, the Jump Infantry capacity of a Night Scythe is ZERO... so kinda hard to satisfy that restriction.
Point out at what point in the rules am I embarking them when I deploy the Praetorians in the Night Scythe. Page and paragraph please.
I have permission to deploy them in the Night Scythe.
Spoiler:
Dedicated Transports
Sometimes a unit entry will include a transport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected together with the unit. These Dedicated Transports do not use up a slot on the force organisation chart, but count as having the same role as the unit they were bought for all other rules purposes.
For example, a Rhino bought for a Space Marine Tactical Squad (troops) counts as a unit of troops, but one bought for a unit of Space Marine Sternguard Veteran Squad (elites) counts as elites.
Other vehicles may also have a Transport Capacity, but they are chosen separately as normal, have a role and occupy a force organisation chart slot of their own.
The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it). After the game begins, it can then transport any friendly Infantry unit, subject to Transport Capacity and other special exclusions, as explained in the vehicle’s entry.
So, to be clear, it is your contention that since the ONLY limitation of a DT is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with, that the following options are all legal...
5 man Space Marine Command Squad on Bikes deployed in a Razorback.
10 man Space Marine Tactical Squad deployed in a Razorback.
20 man Space Marine Crusader Squad deployed in a Drop Pod.
5 man Blood Angels Command Squad w/Jump Packs deployed in a Drop Pod.
15 man Blood Angels Death Company Squad w/Jump Packs deployed in a Razorback.
20 woman Adepta Sororitas Battle Sister Squad deployed in an Immolator.
10 woman Adepta Sororitas Battle Sister Squad deployed in an Immolator.
30 man Ork Boyz Squad deployed in a Trukk.
15 man Ork Burna Boyz Squad deployed in a Trukk.
5 man Necrons Triarch Praetorians Squad deployed in a Night Scythe.
10 man Necrons Triarch Praetorians Squad deployed in a Night Scythe.
I'm just trying to understand your argument. I think it's pretty clear that if we ignore the unit type restriction we also have to ignore the unit size restriction. Per your argument, it seems all of the above are legal ways to deploy an army.
This might actually be a huge hole in the rules. Given that the DT rules give blanket permission to ignore ALL other restrictions, if we agree that Praetorians can be deployed in a Night Scythe, we have to agree that all of the above are also legal.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/01 19:32:20
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jy2 wrote: If you want specific permission, just look to the rules for Stormravens, where it gives explicit permission for jump infantry to embark. The rules for Praetorians gives you implied permission at best, but it isn't RAW by any stretch.
You are missing the point. I have permission to deploy the Praetorians inside the Night Scythe and I am at no point embarking them or having to deal with any restrictions for embarking them. If they wind up being effectively embarked when they are deployed within the Night Scythe it was an after the fact consequence of deploying but I have clear permission to deploy them inside the Night Scythe as long as I satisfy capacity restrictions.
RAW I can put the Praetorians in the Night Scythe at deployment. No rule is preventing that.
A unit that is deployed in a transport is also embarked in it, is it not?
And don't tell me you want to start arguing about the different tenses of the verb embark.
If people are rules-lawyering his Praetorians out of a DT, then he has every right to use the RAW to let them in their Transport.
Collateral damage doesn't matter.
If people are rules-lawyering his Praetorians out of a DT, then he has every right to use the RAW to let them in their Transport.
Collateral damage doesn't matter.
OK then...
When I play versus the Triarchs in a Night Scythe, I'll be fielding 30 man Ork Boyz Trukk gunboats.
Check out my website. Editorials! Tutorials! Fun Times To Be Had! - kriswallminis.com
If people are rules-lawyering his Praetorians out of a DT, then he has every right to use the RAW to let them in their Transport.
Collateral damage doesn't matter.
OK then...
When I play versus the Triarchs in a Night Scythe, I'll be fielding 30 man Ork Boyz Trukk gunboats.
The Dedicated Transport definition makes it clear that you have to obey transport capacity restrictions. You should read the rules like I am doing.
jy2 wrote: If you want specific permission, just look to the rules for Stormravens, where it gives explicit permission for jump infantry to embark. The rules for Praetorians gives you implied permission at best, but it isn't RAW by any stretch.
You are missing the point. I have permission to deploy the Praetorians inside the Night Scythe and I am at no point embarking them or having to deal with any restrictions for embarking them. If they wind up being effectively embarked when they are deployed within the Night Scythe it was an after the fact consequence of deploying but I have clear permission to deploy them inside the Night Scythe as long as I satisfy capacity restrictions.
RAW I can put the Praetorians in the Night Scythe at deployment. No rule is preventing that.
Can you post a citation of which rules give you an explicit permission to ignore the jump infantry restriction in the BRB? Needs to be worded similarly to the Storm Raven permission. I'll wait while you post it.
For context, here is the entirety of the rules in the Triarch Praetorians unit entry... "May select a Night Scythe as a dedicated transport."
From the Night Scythe unit entry... "Transport Capacity: 15 Models"
Your explicit permission needs to be in one of those two quotes. Just point out which it is. I'm obviously missing something.
Until then, Jump Infantry can't be embarked upon a Night Scythe as the Night Scythe can't transport Jump Infantry.
as long as I satisfy capacity restrictions.
I agree. However, the Jump Infantry capacity of a Night Scythe is ZERO... so kinda hard to satisfy that restriction.
Point out at what point in the rules am I embarking them when I deploy the Praetorians in the Night Scythe. Page and paragraph please.
I have permission to deploy them in the Night Scythe.
Spoiler:
Dedicated Transports
Sometimes a unit entry will include a transport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected together with the unit. These Dedicated Transports do not use up a slot on the force organisation chart, but count as having the same role as the unit they were bought for all other rules purposes.
For example, a Rhino bought for a Space Marine Tactical Squad (troops) counts as a unit of troops, but one bought for a unit of Space Marine Sternguard Veteran Squad (elites) counts as elites.
Other vehicles may also have a Transport Capacity, but they are chosen separately as normal, have a role and occupy a force organisation chart slot of their own.
The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it). After the game begins, it can then transport any friendly Infantry unit, subject to Transport Capacity and other special exclusions, as explained in the vehicle’s entry.
So, to be clear, it is your contention that since the ONLY limitation of a DT is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with, that the following options are all legal...
5 man Space Marine Command Squad on Bikes deployed in a Razorback.
10 man Space Marine Tactical Squad deployed in a Razorback.
20 man Space Marine Crusader Squad deployed in a Drop Pod.
5 man Blood Angels Command Squad w/Jump Packs deployed in a Drop Pod.
15 man Blood Angels Death Company Squad w/Jump Packs deployed in a Razorback.
20 woman Adepta Sororitas Battle Sister Squad deployed in an Immolator.
10 woman Adepta Sororitas Battle Sister Squad deployed in an Immolator.
30 man Ork Boyz Squad deployed in a Trukk.
15 man Ork Burna Boyz Squad deployed in a Trukk.
5 man Necrons Triarch Praetorians Squad deployed in a Night Scythe.
10 man Necrons Triarch Praetorians Squad deployed in a Night Scythe.
I'm just trying to understand your argument. I think it's pretty clear that if we ignore the unit type restriction we also have to ignore the unit size restriction. Per your argument, it seems all of the above are legal ways to deploy an army.
This might actually be a huge hole in the rules. Given that the DT rules give blanket permission to ignore ALL other restrictions, if we agree that Praetorians can be deployed in a Night Scythe, we have to agree that all of the above are also legal.
It's clear that you always have to obey capacity restrictions. That's in the DT rules.
However, there is a loophole and people, consciously or unconsciously, are patching in their understanding of intent to keep the rules coherent.
I can put the praetorians into the NS per the rules and it goes along with obvious intent.
However, many of your above examples go directly against intent, so good luck with that.
The standard RAW is that jump infantry cannot embark onto transports. The burden of proof goes to the side that claims that they can. Just because you have the option to purchase a DT does not automatically give you the right to embark upon it. As stupid as that sounds, GW is just full of stupidness nowadays when it comes to rules-writing. So they f*cked up with this as well.
Now if the rules for DT said this:
"The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can ALWAYS carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it). "
I'd agree with being able to transport the Praetorians. However, what it says is this:
"The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it). "
No way is that a blanket permission to always be able to transport the unit that came with the transport. All it is is a restriction that you can start no other non-attached-IC unit in the DT other than the unit that you bought the DT for.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/01 19:51:08
jy2 wrote: The standard RAW is that jump infantry cannot embark onto transports. The burden of proof goes to the side that claims that they can. Just because you have the option to purchase a DT does not automatically give you the right to embark upon it. As stupid as that sounds, GW is just full of stupidness nowadays when it comes to rules-writing. So they f*cked up with this as well.
Now if the rules for DT said this:
"The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can ALWAYS carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it). "
I'd agree with being able to transport the Praetorians. However, what it says is this:
"The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it). "
No way is that a blanket permission to always be able to transport the unit that came with the transport. All it is is a restriction that you can start no other non-attached-IC unit in the DT other than the unit that you bought the DT for.
I think you are missing the word 'can." That is permission to carry. At any point am I embarking them onto the Night Scythe when they are deployed in the Night Scythe? Point me to the page and paragraph where it says I am embarking them when I am deploying them in the Night Scythe.
This is a clear line of permission.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/01 19:56:32
jy2 wrote: If you want specific permission, just look to the rules for Stormravens, where it gives explicit permission for jump infantry to embark. The rules for Praetorians gives you implied permission at best, but it isn't RAW by any stretch.
You are missing the point. I have permission to deploy the Praetorians inside the Night Scythe and I am at no point embarking them or having to deal with any restrictions for embarking them. If they wind up being effectively embarked when they are deployed within the Night Scythe it was an after the fact consequence of deploying but I have clear permission to deploy them inside the Night Scythe as long as I satisfy capacity restrictions.
RAW I can put the Praetorians in the Night Scythe at deployment. No rule is preventing that.
Can you post a citation of which rules give you an explicit permission to ignore the jump infantry restriction in the BRB? Needs to be worded similarly to the Storm Raven permission. I'll wait while you post it.
For context, here is the entirety of the rules in the Triarch Praetorians unit entry... "May select a Night Scythe as a dedicated transport."
From the Night Scythe unit entry... "Transport Capacity: 15 Models"
Your explicit permission needs to be in one of those two quotes. Just point out which it is. I'm obviously missing something.
Until then, Jump Infantry can't be embarked upon a Night Scythe as the Night Scythe can't transport Jump Infantry.
as long as I satisfy capacity restrictions.
I agree. However, the Jump Infantry capacity of a Night Scythe is ZERO... so kinda hard to satisfy that restriction.
Point out at what point in the rules am I embarking them when I deploy the Praetorians in the Night Scythe. Page and paragraph please.
I have permission to deploy them in the Night Scythe.
Spoiler:
Dedicated Transports
Sometimes a unit entry will include a transport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected together with the unit. These Dedicated Transports do not use up a slot on the force organisation chart, but count as having the same role as the unit they were bought for all other rules purposes.
For example, a Rhino bought for a Space Marine Tactical Squad (troops) counts as a unit of troops, but one bought for a unit of Space Marine Sternguard Veteran Squad (elites) counts as elites.
Other vehicles may also have a Transport Capacity, but they are chosen separately as normal, have a role and occupy a force organisation chart slot of their own.
The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it). After the game begins, it can then transport any friendly Infantry unit, subject to Transport Capacity and other special exclusions, as explained in the vehicle’s entry.
So, to be clear, it is your contention that since the ONLY limitation of a DT is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with, that the following options are all legal...
5 man Space Marine Command Squad on Bikes deployed in a Razorback.
10 man Space Marine Tactical Squad deployed in a Razorback.
20 man Space Marine Crusader Squad deployed in a Drop Pod.
5 man Blood Angels Command Squad w/Jump Packs deployed in a Drop Pod.
15 man Blood Angels Death Company Squad w/Jump Packs deployed in a Razorback.
20 woman Adepta Sororitas Battle Sister Squad deployed in an Immolator.
10 woman Adepta Sororitas Battle Sister Squad deployed in an Immolator.
30 man Ork Boyz Squad deployed in a Trukk.
15 man Ork Burna Boyz Squad deployed in a Trukk.
5 man Necrons Triarch Praetorians Squad deployed in a Night Scythe.
10 man Necrons Triarch Praetorians Squad deployed in a Night Scythe.
I'm just trying to understand your argument. I think it's pretty clear that if we ignore the unit type restriction we also have to ignore the unit size restriction. Per your argument, it seems all of the above are legal ways to deploy an army.
This might actually be a huge hole in the rules. Given that the DT rules give blanket permission to ignore ALL other restrictions, if we agree that Praetorians can be deployed in a Night Scythe, we have to agree that all of the above are also legal.
It's clear that you always have to obey capacity restrictions. That's in the DT rules.
However, there is a loophole and people, consciously or unconsciously, are patching in their understanding of intent to keep the rules coherent.
I can put the praetorians into the NS per the rules and it goes along with obvious intent.
However, many of your above examples go directly against intent, so good luck with that.
What is the transport capacity of a Night Scythe for Jump Infantry? Let's ignore the DT issue right now. Zero. Prove otherwise using rules.
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jy2 wrote: If you want specific permission, just look to the rules for Stormravens, where it gives explicit permission for jump infantry to embark. The rules for Praetorians gives you implied permission at best, but it isn't RAW by any stretch.
You are missing the point. I have permission to deploy the Praetorians inside the Night Scythe and I am at no point embarking them or having to deal with any restrictions for embarking them. If they wind up being effectively embarked when they are deployed within the Night Scythe it was an after the fact consequence of deploying but I have clear permission to deploy them inside the Night Scythe as long as I satisfy capacity restrictions.
RAW I can put the Praetorians in the Night Scythe at deployment. No rule is preventing that.
Can you post a citation of which rules give you an explicit permission to ignore the jump infantry restriction in the BRB? Needs to be worded similarly to the Storm Raven permission. I'll wait while you post it.
For context, here is the entirety of the rules in the Triarch Praetorians unit entry... "May select a Night Scythe as a dedicated transport."
From the Night Scythe unit entry... "Transport Capacity: 15 Models"
Your explicit permission needs to be in one of those two quotes. Just point out which it is. I'm obviously missing something.
Until then, Jump Infantry can't be embarked upon a Night Scythe as the Night Scythe can't transport Jump Infantry.
as long as I satisfy capacity restrictions.
I agree. However, the Jump Infantry capacity of a Night Scythe is ZERO... so kinda hard to satisfy that restriction.
Point out at what point in the rules am I embarking them when I deploy the Praetorians in the Night Scythe. Page and paragraph please.
I have permission to deploy them in the Night Scythe.
Spoiler:
Dedicated Transports
Sometimes a unit entry will include a transport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected together with the unit. These Dedicated Transports do not use up a slot on the force organisation chart, but count as having the same role as the unit they were bought for all other rules purposes.
For example, a Rhino bought for a Space Marine Tactical Squad (troops) counts as a unit of troops, but one bought for a unit of Space Marine Sternguard Veteran Squad (elites) counts as elites.
Other vehicles may also have a Transport Capacity, but they are chosen separately as normal, have a role and occupy a force organisation chart slot of their own.
The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it). After the game begins, it can then transport any friendly Infantry unit, subject to Transport Capacity and other special exclusions, as explained in the vehicle’s entry.
So, to be clear, it is your contention that since the ONLY limitation of a DT is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with, that the following options are all legal...
5 man Space Marine Command Squad on Bikes deployed in a Razorback.
10 man Space Marine Tactical Squad deployed in a Razorback.
20 man Space Marine Crusader Squad deployed in a Drop Pod.
5 man Blood Angels Command Squad w/Jump Packs deployed in a Drop Pod.
15 man Blood Angels Death Company Squad w/Jump Packs deployed in a Razorback.
20 woman Adepta Sororitas Battle Sister Squad deployed in an Immolator.
10 woman Adepta Sororitas Battle Sister Squad deployed in an Immolator.
30 man Ork Boyz Squad deployed in a Trukk.
15 man Ork Burna Boyz Squad deployed in a Trukk.
5 man Necrons Triarch Praetorians Squad deployed in a Night Scythe.
10 man Necrons Triarch Praetorians Squad deployed in a Night Scythe.
I'm just trying to understand your argument. I think it's pretty clear that if we ignore the unit type restriction we also have to ignore the unit size restriction. Per your argument, it seems all of the above are legal ways to deploy an army.
This might actually be a huge hole in the rules. Given that the DT rules give blanket permission to ignore ALL other restrictions, if we agree that Praetorians can be deployed in a Night Scythe, we have to agree that all of the above are also legal.
It's clear that you always have to obey capacity restrictions. That's in the DT rules.
However, there is a loophole and people, consciously or unconsciously, are patching in their understanding of intent to keep the rules coherent.
I can put the praetorians into the NS per the rules and it goes along with obvious intent.
However, many of your above examples go directly against intent, so good luck with that.
What is the transport capacity of a Night Scythe for Jump Infantry? Let's ignore the DT issue right now. Zero. Prove otherwise using rules.
'15 models' on the army list entry. Jump units are bulky so per that rule they count as 2 models each. I don't see a line saying 'Zero Jump Infantry.'
col_impact wrote: I think you are missing the word 'can." That is permission to carry.
'Can...' is a permission.
'Can only...' is a restriction.
That statement is not giving permission to do something. It is applying a restriction.
'can only' grants a permission with a restriction.
Spoiler:
The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it).
This line clearly allows me to deploy the Praetorians inside their dedicated transport. What rule prevents from doing so. The line says "the only limitation . . ." and I adhere to that limitation!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/01 20:23:43
col_impact wrote: First off, we really need to stop talking about embarking here since its not possible to embark anything on a Night Scythe ever.
Then it's never possible to disembark anything from a Night Scythe, ever.
Spoiler:
“A unit that begins its Movement phase embarked upon a vehicle can disembark either before or after the vehicle”
So let's just stop that argument in its tracks.
Since apparently this was missed...
Go ahead and pretend your argument is correct. You have a unit of Praetorians that can do nothing until the Scythe is shot down, at which point they enter from reserves on your board edge.
Sure. Have fun with your argument of intent.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
jy2 wrote: If you want specific permission, just look to the rules for Stormravens, where it gives explicit permission for jump infantry to embark. The rules for Praetorians gives you implied permission at best, but it isn't RAW by any stretch.
You are missing the point. I have permission to deploy the Praetorians inside the Night Scythe and I am at no point embarking them or having to deal with any restrictions for embarking them. If they wind up being effectively embarked when they are deployed within the Night Scythe it was an after the fact consequence of deploying but I have clear permission to deploy them inside the Night Scythe as long as I satisfy capacity restrictions.
RAW I can put the Praetorians in the Night Scythe at deployment. No rule is preventing that.
Can you post a citation of which rules give you an explicit permission to ignore the jump infantry restriction in the BRB? Needs to be worded similarly to the Storm Raven permission. I'll wait while you post it.
For context, here is the entirety of the rules in the Triarch Praetorians unit entry... "May select a Night Scythe as a dedicated transport."
From the Night Scythe unit entry... "Transport Capacity: 15 Models"
Your explicit permission needs to be in one of those two quotes. Just point out which it is. I'm obviously missing something.
Until then, Jump Infantry can't be embarked upon a Night Scythe as the Night Scythe can't transport Jump Infantry.
as long as I satisfy capacity restrictions.
I agree. However, the Jump Infantry capacity of a Night Scythe is ZERO... so kinda hard to satisfy that restriction.
Point out at what point in the rules am I embarking them when I deploy the Praetorians in the Night Scythe. Page and paragraph please.
I have permission to deploy them in the Night Scythe.
Spoiler:
Dedicated Transports
Sometimes a unit entry will include a transport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected together with the unit. These Dedicated Transports do not use up a slot on the force organisation chart, but count as having the same role as the unit they were bought for all other rules purposes.
For example, a Rhino bought for a Space Marine Tactical Squad (troops) counts as a unit of troops, but one bought for a unit of Space Marine Sternguard Veteran Squad (elites) counts as elites.
Other vehicles may also have a Transport Capacity, but they are chosen separately as normal, have a role and occupy a force organisation chart slot of their own.
The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it). After the game begins, it can then transport any friendly Infantry unit, subject to Transport Capacity and other special exclusions, as explained in the vehicle’s entry.
So, to be clear, it is your contention that since the ONLY limitation of a DT is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with, that the following options are all legal...
5 man Space Marine Command Squad on Bikes deployed in a Razorback.
10 man Space Marine Tactical Squad deployed in a Razorback.
20 man Space Marine Crusader Squad deployed in a Drop Pod.
5 man Blood Angels Command Squad w/Jump Packs deployed in a Drop Pod.
15 man Blood Angels Death Company Squad w/Jump Packs deployed in a Razorback.
20 woman Adepta Sororitas Battle Sister Squad deployed in an Immolator.
10 woman Adepta Sororitas Battle Sister Squad deployed in an Immolator.
30 man Ork Boyz Squad deployed in a Trukk.
15 man Ork Burna Boyz Squad deployed in a Trukk.
5 man Necrons Triarch Praetorians Squad deployed in a Night Scythe.
10 man Necrons Triarch Praetorians Squad deployed in a Night Scythe.
I'm just trying to understand your argument. I think it's pretty clear that if we ignore the unit type restriction we also have to ignore the unit size restriction. Per your argument, it seems all of the above are legal ways to deploy an army.
This might actually be a huge hole in the rules. Given that the DT rules give blanket permission to ignore ALL other restrictions, if we agree that Praetorians can be deployed in a Night Scythe, we have to agree that all of the above are also legal.
It's clear that you always have to obey capacity restrictions. That's in the DT rules.
However, there is a loophole and people, consciously or unconsciously, are patching in their understanding of intent to keep the rules coherent.
I can put the praetorians into the NS per the rules and it goes along with obvious intent.
However, many of your above examples go directly against intent, so good luck with that.
What is the transport capacity of a Night Scythe for Jump Infantry? Let's ignore the DT issue right now. Zero. Prove otherwise using rules.
'15 models' on the army list entry. Jump units are bulky so per that rule they count as 2 models each. I don't see a line saying 'Zero Jump Infantry.'
So your contention is that ANY non-DT transport can start with Jump Infantry deployed inside so long as the transport capacity is met? If I buy a Night Scythe as a Fast Attack choice, I can start the game with 5 Triarch Praetorians deployed inside?
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col_impact wrote: 'can only' grants a permission with a restriction.
Not in the English language.
Spoiler:
The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it).
This line clearly allows me to deploy the Praetorians inside their dedicated transport. What rule prevents from doing so? The line says "the only limitation . . ." and I adhere to that limitation!
So your contention is that ANY non-DT transport can start with Jump Infantry deployed inside so long as the transport capacity is met? If I buy a Night Scythe as a Fast Attack choice, I can start the game with 5 Triarch Praetorians deployed inside?
Nope. As I have shown, chain of permission is given to the Praetorians when they select the dedicated transport.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/01 20:29:42
col_impact wrote: 'can only' grants a permission with a restriction.
Not in the English language.
Spoiler:
The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it).
This line clearly allows me to deploy the Praetorians inside their dedicated transport. What rule prevents from doing so? The line says "the only limitation . . ." and I adhere to that limitation!
That's not what that line says. It adds a limitation to the Transport rules - including the rule that explicitly forbids Jump Infantry.
You're inventing permission where there is none.
You're not allowed to have cookies unless specifically told otherwise.
You can only have one cookie.
So your contention is that ANY non-DT transport can start with Jump Infantry deployed inside so long as the transport capacity is met? If I buy a Night Scythe as a Fast Attack choice, I can start the game with 5 Triarch Praetorians deployed inside?
Nope. As I have shown, chain of permission is given to the Praetorians when they select the dedicated transport.
All you've shown is implied permission - and you continue to ignore the fact that they'll never be allowed to disembark even if your argument was correct.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/01 20:31:51
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
col_impact wrote: First off, we really need to stop talking about embarking here since its not possible to embark anything on a Night Scythe ever.
Then it's never possible to disembark anything from a Night Scythe, ever.
Spoiler:
“A unit that begins its Movement phase embarked upon a vehicle can disembark either before or after the vehicle”
So let's just stop that argument in its tracks.
Since apparently this was missed...
Go ahead and pretend your argument is correct. You have a unit of Praetorians that can do nothing until the Scythe is shot down, at which point they enter from reserves on your board edge.
Sure. Have fun with your argument of intent.
Nope. Once deployed in the Night Scythe, they are effectively embarked (even though I was not involved in any embarking), so they can disembark per Night Scythe invasion beam no problem. So indeed I am having good luck with my argument. Thanks for the encouragement!
col_impact wrote: First off, we really need to stop talking about embarking here since its not possible to embark anything on a Night Scythe ever.
Then it's never possible to disembark anything from a Night Scythe, ever.
Spoiler:
“A unit that begins its Movement phase embarked upon a vehicle can disembark either before or after the vehicle”
So let's just stop that argument in its tracks.
Since apparently this was missed...
Go ahead and pretend your argument is correct. You have a unit of Praetorians that can do nothing until the Scythe is shot down, at which point they enter from reserves on your board edge.
Sure. Have fun with your argument of intent.
Nope. Once deployed in the Night Scythe, they are effectively embarked (even though I was not involved in any embarking), so they can disembark per Night Scythe invasion beam no problem. So indeed I am having good luck with my argument. Thanks for the encouragement!
So they're embarked but never embarked?
Please stop making up rules.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
Is it possible that being embarked and embarking are two different things since Embarking requires to get into base contact and the Transport already deployed?
There are ways to skip the embarking process in reserves under the Combined Reserve Units rule page 135 htat I quoted on the 2nd page but I think people are metaphorically going for the throat at each other.
If some one could look at what I said maybe this can shed some new light on the matter other then the stuff that has been posted?
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.
col_impact wrote: First off, we really need to stop talking about embarking here since its not possible to embark anything on a Night Scythe ever.
Then it's never possible to disembark anything from a Night Scythe, ever.
Spoiler:
“A unit that begins its Movement phase embarked upon a vehicle can disembark either before or after the vehicle”
So let's just stop that argument in its tracks.
Since apparently this was missed...
Go ahead and pretend your argument is correct. You have a unit of Praetorians that can do nothing until the Scythe is shot down, at which point they enter from reserves on your board edge.
Sure. Have fun with your argument of intent.
Nope. Once deployed in the Night Scythe, they are effectively embarked (even though I was not involved in any embarking), so they can disembark per Night Scythe invasion beam no problem. So indeed I am having good luck with my argument. Thanks for the encouragement!
So they're embarked but never embarked?
Please stop making up rules.
Did I make up this rule?
Spoiler:
The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it).
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