New Harlequins - Discuss

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**Xenomancers**

Waste of time. Fix tactical marines, give them a new transport if you want to sell some models that aren't selling. GW sucks.

**Ace Rimmer**

vipoid wrote:
One thing I feel I should bring up regarding the Embrace/Caress comparisons is that the Embrace is HoW hits - so in order to get all of them you have to get every harlequin in BTB with the enemy.

When comparing the two, I just feel you should be careful about the assumption that 10 models will all get into BTB with their target. As, to me, this seems very optimistic if you're not fighting infantry-guard or an ork horde.

Indeed, but if the rumoured transport is the open-topped fast skimmer we are expecting, then getting the harlequins into base contact with the a unit of say 5 models or a tank shouldn't actually be particularly difficult.
The real issue is making sure you have something to assault first and draw the overwatch fire because that will hurt them.

**Mr Morden**

Xenomancers wrote:
Waste of time. Fix tactical marines, give them a new transport if you want to sell some models that aren't selling. GW sucks.

Of fix the broken stuff in the game that makes them look so bad maybe?

I have 4 1/2 Marine armies - we simply don't need this ongoing multi Codex bloat with various ever so slightly different Chapters being given "new" stuff to try and make them actually different.

**Massaen**

Ravenous D wrote:
Well lets run some math for a guide.

a 10 man unit of Harlies is 225 to 255 with either all kisses, embraces, or all caresses, and haywire grenades on the squad leader.

If you manage to get them unscathed into combat, and that's a big if, you'll do the following:

Against 10 marines:
Embraces: 20 hits, 17 wounds, 6 dead at I10, followed by 41 attacks, 28 hits, 14 wounds, 4 more dead at I6. All dead with no swings back.
Kisses: 10 kiss attacks, 7 hits, 2 dead followed by 31 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds, 3 more dead. Half as good as embraces. Marines swing back and probably kill 2.
Caresses: 41 attacks. 6 autodead, 22 other hits, 11 wounds, 3 more dead. Still not as good as the embraces. But better against medium and heavy tanks.

Against say 20 guardsmen:
Embraces: 20 hits, 17 wounds, 11 dead, followed by 41 attacks, 27 hits, 18 wounds, 12 more dead.
Kisses: 10 kiss attacks, 7 hits, 1 kiss wound, 5 other wounds, 5 dead. 31 other attacks, 20 hits, 14 wounds, 10 dead.
Caresses: 41 attacks. 6 autodead, 22 other hits, 15 wounds, 10 more dead.

Against tanks (I wont bother with kisses as they clearly wont be as good as others). Assume 1 HP gone from the Haywire grenade too. Anything with av 10 back armour will suffer 4 glances on average for a total of 5Hps before adding the specials

Embraces (remember hammer of wrath hits the side you are assaulting) :
Av10: 20 hits, 6 pens 4 glances
Av11: 20 hits, 3 pens, 3 glances
Av12: 20 hits, 3 glances
Av13 and 14: N/A

Caresses: All Av types: 41 attacks, 6 glances.

I might be misreading this but I think you have messed up the numbers for the "kiss" attacks. 10 attacks, 7 hits and then S6 and ap2 means way more than 2 dead marines...

**Xenomancers**

Mr Morden wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Waste of time. Fix tactical marines, give them a new transport if you want to sell some models that aren't selling. GW sucks.

Of fix the broken stuff in the game that makes them look so bad maybe?

I have 4 1/2 Marine armies - we simply don't need this ongoing multi Codex bloat with various ever so slightly different Chapters being given "new" stuff to try and make them actually different.

Cept tactical marines are bad across the board in every chapter. You have 4 marine armies - I have 3 - most have at least 2...make a new box set with better looking tacticals and change their rules up in a data slate to make them competitive and bam...you just made several millions of dollars and made a lot of people happy. Don't know about you but I couldn't care less about harlequins - they are a niche unit - it doesn't make many happy and it doesn't make anyone any money. Basically it's bad for everyone.

**pm713**

Except for people who like Harlequins. Whereas changing tactical marines doesn't really help that many people.

**morgoth**

Xenomancers wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Waste of time. Fix tactical marines, give them a new transport if you want to sell some models that aren't selling. GW sucks.

Of fix the broken stuff in the game that makes them look so bad maybe?

I have 4 1/2 Marine armies - we simply don't need this ongoing multi Codex bloat with various ever so slightly different Chapters being given "new" stuff to try and make them actually different.

Cept tactical marines are bad across the board in every chapter. You have 4 marine armies - I have 3 - most have at least 2...make a new box set with better looking tacticals and change their rules up in a data slate to make them competitive and bam...you just made several millions of dollars and made a lot of people happy. Don't know about you but I couldn't care less about harlequins - they are a niche unit - it doesn't make many happy and it doesn't make anyone any money. Basically it's bad for everyone.

Tactical Marines are already good in comparison with many other units.

Harlequins create the stage where Marines play.

If GW were to follow your logic, 40K would only be about Marines, extremely boring, and you'd never get a Xenos to fight because all their codexes and miniatures would be 10 years older.

**Ravenous D**

Massaen wrote:

I might be misreading this but I think you have messed up the numbers for the "kiss" attacks. 10 attacks, 7 hits and then S6 and ap2 means way more than 2 dead marines...

Ah, I misread the rule, I thought it was only ap2 on the 6. So it would be 7 hits, 6 dead.

**Solis Luna Astrum**

God In Action wrote:
ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Not wanting to derail but does anyone else think Cegorach may actually be the Deceiver (C'Tan)?

Yes and no. I think i have a solid theory which i put on this thread, page 2. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/632815.page By no means definitive, but it fits into my personal fan-hammer.

As for the Solitaire he fits right in with my null-deployment Dark Eldar list. Nothing on the board at the start of the game, everything should be on by turn 2. And with the Solitaire being so dam fast, he should be able to be a threat to a lot of the board due to Blitz so he can make his charge along with the rest of my scary stuff ala Dark Artisan's and Grotesques. He is also rather sexy, and i REALLY loved Motley. So for me it's a no-brainer. The Harlequins themselves? That will depend on that fancy new transport of theirs, if the Enigma's of the Black Library help them out and how the Shadowseer works.

Hate to break it to you, but this is technically an auto lose. The rules state that if at the end of any game turn (i.e. the end of each yours and the opponent's turn 1) you have no models on the board, you automatically lose. You just need to have at least one model on the board by the end of both player's turn 1,

You might want to re-read that. Nothing he wrote says he will have no models on the board at the end of turn 1. He only says he will start the game with no models on the board and all models will be on by turn 2. That rather implies he will have units deploying during the first turn.

**Massaen**

Ravenous D wrote:
Massaen wrote:

I might be misreading this but I think you have messed up the numbers for the "kiss" attacks. 10 attacks, 7 hits and then S6 and ap2 means way more than 2 dead marines...

Ah, I misread the rule, I thought it was only ap2 on the 6. So it would be 7 hits, 6 dead.

It also effects the other calculations and with S6 is a credible threat to light and medium AV as well

**Xenomancers**

pm713 wrote:
Except for people who like Harlequins. Whereas changing tactical marines doesn't really help that many people.

Sorry to break it to you....but the ratio of people who want tactical marine updates compared to harlequin updates is probably close to 1000:1.

**Bharring**

Sorry to break it to you, but wouldn't Harlies be part of fixing Tacs? When I want to kill Harlies, Boltguns are the first thing that comes to mind.

More Harlie-like things and fewer IK stupidity would go a long way towards fixing Tacs...

**Rune Stonegrinder**

BlackTalos wrote:
Maybe just me having a moment, but what does:

-May take one item from the Enigmas of the Black Library list.

Refer to?
page 27 of the WD? Or an items list not yet released? (WD54?)

Those are going to be artifacts or some type of special ability, no one currently knows what they will be. These in my opinion will dictate if Harli's will be playable.

we still do not know if we'll see:

High Warlock? was in the original
are Shadowseers still in?
psychic powers for them?
no mention of Death Jester (I assume he is in)
Harli wraithlord will he be a true harli? or just ally one to count as?
I also assume jetbikes are in as sky weavers, maybe?
Neural Shredder? I saw this in a rumor as a pistol

one or two more weeks we'll find out alot of this

**Doomaflatchi**

Rune Stonegrinder wrote:
we still do not know if we'll see:

High Warlock? was in the original
are Shadowseers still in?
psychic powers for them?
no mention of Death Jester (I assume he is in)
Harli wraithlord will he be a true harli? or just ally one to count as?
I also assume jetbikes are in as sky weavers, maybe?
Neural Shredder? I saw this in a rumor as a pistol

one or two more weeks we'll find out alot of this

For what it's worth right now:

I think the Neural Shredder pistol you're referring to is the Neural Disruptor in this week's release, no? 12" S1 AP2 Pistol Fleshbane
Current word is that Shadowseers and Death Jesters will be in, but will be in the last week of release since they already have models
Multiple sources also list Jetbikes and High Warlock as coming

You are correct, we'll know more about their viability once all the rules are in. I just wanted to make sure all the info here was as current as possible.

**Asmodas**

Xenomancers wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Except for people who like Harlequins. Whereas changing tactical marines doesn't really help that many people.

Sorry to break it to you....but the ratio of people who want tactical marine updates compared to harlequin updates is probably close to 1000:1.

Did we just go over a bridge or something?

**Xenomancers**

Bharring wrote:
Sorry to break it to you, but wouldn't Harlies be part of fixing Tacs? When I want to kill Harlies, Boltguns are the first thing that comes to mind.

More Harlie-like things and fewer IK stupidity would go a long way towards fixing Tacs...

really? You'd take a squad of marines vs harlequins? even before their rework they were essentially designed to tear marines apart - without taking a loss.

**Bharring**

Umm... Try shooting them? Like, with guns?

(2/3)(2/3)(2/3) = 8/27ths. At 24", that's 3 dead Harlies. Rapid fire is 6 dead harlies.

That's no Special and no Heavy. Just imagine the sweet sweet smell of burning space elf clown meat if they ever dance near a flamer! Although they do taste funny.

Then, in melee, Harlies do have an advantage. But they cost a boatload more than a Marine.

So, basically, if your Marines sit around twiddling their thumbs while Harlies get close, then charge, Marines will lose to the more expensive CC-dedicated unit. But if Marines get off a rapid fire volley, Marines will win on a per-model basis despite being absurdly cheaper.

In other words, if Harlies are hard-countering your Tacs, you're doing it very wrong.

**morgoth**

I don't think anyone can successfully argue that Tactical Marines are bad.

They may not be good enough for the tournament scene, but at 14 points, 3+ Save 4/4/4/4 ATSKNF Krak Grenade + options including access to Drop Pods they'll never be "bad".

**Niiru**

Yeh, tac marines are among the best basic troops, and with drop pods being broken good and cheap, space marine players really don't have much to complain about. But then they never did, doesn't stop them though.

Not really the topic for this thread though, so stop it please unless you can make it relevant thanks

**EVIL INC**

I see I'm not the only one missing the death jester

**Niiru**

EVIL INC wrote:
I see I'm not the only one missing the death jester

I'm really interested in what his rules will be, but I also can't wait for the other harlequin units/transports to come out. Exciting times.

I do wonder if they are keeping the same jester model, as they have taken the jester and shadowseer models off the website now. Maybe being re-released in plastic, which would be nice.

**Charles Rampant**

Xenomancers wrote:
Waste of time. Fix tactical marines, give them a new transport if you want to sell some models that aren't selling. GW sucks.

This is why we can't have good things: Imperial players complaining.

Maybe one day we'll get a Forgeworld 50k ruleset. No humans, only Xenos dancing in the fiery ruins of Terra

**Niiru**

Charles Rampant wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Waste of time. Fix tactical marines, give them a new transport if you want to sell some models that aren't selling. GW sucks.

This is why we can't have good things: Imperial players complaining.

Maybe one day we'll get a Forgeworld 50k ruleset. No humans, only Xenos dancing in the fiery ruins of Terra

Lol yeh, damn imperials.

I mean they get to use any units from imperial guard, SOB, inquisition, imperial knights, and any of the space marine codices, without any downsides at all, as well as being able to use each others transports and independant characters freely....

Whereas orks can do exactly none of this, everything is "one eye open" and no transport or IC sharing and are a weaker codex in the first place.

Tac marines have nothing to complain about. They are safe in a big imperial bubble.

While I'm happy so far with the harlequin releases (and am looking forward to the rest of it) this has made me think that I would really like something similar to happen for orks. Maybe make the dread mob stuff official and release some more stuff for them. Just to bring them up to speed.

**Asmodas**

Niiru wrote:
Charles Rampant wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Waste of time. Fix tactical marines, give them a new transport if you want to sell some models that aren't selling. GW sucks.

This is why we can't have good things: Imperial players complaining.

Maybe one day we'll get a Forgeworld 50k ruleset. No humans, only Xenos dancing in the fiery ruins of Terra

Lol yeh, damn imperials.

I mean they get to use any units from imperial guard, SOB, inquisition, imperial knights, and any of the space marine codices, without any downsides at all, as well as being able to use each others transports and independant characters freely....

Whereas orks can do exactly none of this, everything is "one eye open" and no transport or IC sharing and are a weaker codex in the first place.

Tac marines have nothing to complain about. They are safe in a big imperial bubble.

While I'm happy so far with the harlequin releases (and am looking forward to the rest of it) this has made me think that I would really like something similar to happen for orks. Maybe make the dread mob stuff official and release some more stuff for them. Just to bring them up to speed.

Bring back the Boar Boys!

Seriously, though, the new Death Jester has been spotted. Check the rumor page re same. Also, the new WD cover has the Harlie Jetbikes on it. They look awesome!

**Niiru**

Boar boyz and old zogwort, good times

**Doomaflatchi**

Asmodas wrote:
Seriously, though, the new Death Jester has been spotted. Check the rumor page re same. Also, the new WD cover has the Harlie Jetbikes on it. They look awesome!

Ooooh, two-man Jetbikes!

I'm seriously excited about the prospects of a heavier unit with Eldar Jetbike powers.

I can't help but wonder, though, if the old cowls will fit on these new bikes... they were so amazing looking!

**Niiru**

Doomaflatchi wrote:
Asmodas wrote:
Seriously, though, the new Death Jester has been spotted. Check the rumor page re same. Also, the new WD cover has the Harlie Jetbikes on it. They look awesome!

Ooooh, two-man Jetbikes! I'm seriously excited about the prospects of a heavier unit with Eldar Jetbike powers.

I can't help but wonder, though, if the old cowls will fit on these new bikes... they were so amazing looking!

I hadn't actually seen this picture... they look cool!

Problem is, eldar jetbikes themselves tend to be good cos they are priced low enough to take multiple units and dish out fast firepower, with jetbike movement. All good.

These... I suspect will be priced higher, and so will have to be powerful enough to make up for that. Extra wounds, extra damage...

Though if they end up being terminator prices, but with jetbike movement... that could be crazy good.

Ooh fun times.

I'm going to hold off on pre-ordering any harlequin troops until all the new figures/dataslate has been released, as I dont want to end up having things I dont use...

**Happyjew**

Probable Statline for bikes:

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
5 4 3 4 1 6 2 9 3+/5++

Alternatively, if it is 2 models per bike, expect Wounds and Attacks to double.

**RaptorHunter**

I just got the WD and I can say I really really like the Harlequins. The customization is great and the Solitaire looks so much fun to paint and use. It makes me really want to start collection Dark Eldar and be that weird guy. Can't wait to see what is in the next WD.

**Accolade**

I just want to start seeing Unbound armies with Harlequins riding in Land Raiders again.