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Well the rules tell us A is correct. Do you have a rule that says B is correct?

 Lobukia wrote:
Its a good thing that moving a transport doesn't count as the unit inside having moved... oh yeah... nuts

Scout redeployments aren't moves - do catch up to the current edition.

Well then its a good thing that coming in from reserves in a transport lets the embarked unit pretend it didn't come in from reserves... dang, nm

What?

If the unit gets redeployed, looks like the unit inside got redeployed too... no assaulting, sorry gents

Rules citation required. You're making an assumption based on ... what?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kingbobbito wrote:
A) If a rhino with a devastator squad inside moves, the devastators count as moving and can only snap fire.

B) If a LR with termies in it scouts, the termies inside count as having scouted.

Why would A be correct, but B be incorrect? When a transport moves, the models in it move. When a transport scouts, a form of free movement, the models in it have also scouted, or performed a free movement.

In the case of the devastators, the rules of moving apply to them even though all they did was "stay embarked". As for the terminators, the rules of scout apply even though all they did was "stay embarked".

Is there any difference between these two examples other than the style of movement taking place?

The rules of moving apply because we have a rule telling us they do.
There is literally no rule anywhere telling us that the terminators count as scouting.

There is a rule in the Ork Supplement that explicitly disallows the passengers of the scouting battlewagons to charge on the first turn. That rule is not listed anywhere else in the BRB. So this means that the normal way to play scouting dedicated transports is to allow the units inside to charge. This specific rule for the orks means that they cannot do it.

 Lobukia wrote:
Its a good thing that moving a transport doesn't count as the unit inside having moved... oh yeah... nuts

Well then its a good thing that coming in from reserves in a transport lets the embarked unit pretend it didn't come in from reserves... dang, nm

If the unit gets redeployed, looks like the unit inside got redeployed too... no assaulting, sorry gents

Got a rule for that? I can g'tee the termies didn't use the scout rule, after all they can only move 6", and that vehicle just moved 12"

Or how about a counter to your fallacies - a jinxing transport has no effect on,passengers ability to shoot. Shucks, guess your cherry picking is just wrong,...

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Its a good thing that moving a transport doesn't count as the unit inside having moved... oh yeah... nuts

Well then its a good thing that coming in from reserves in a transport lets the embarked unit pretend it didn't come in from reserves... dang, nm

If the unit gets redeployed, looks like the unit inside got redeployed too... no assaulting, sorry gents

Got a rule for that? I can g'tee the termies didn't use the scout rule, after all they can only move 6", and that vehicle just moved 12"

Correction - it redeployed.

first step: deploy the vehicle. THEN you deploy the unit inside the vehicle. That's their deployment. Whatever happens to the vehicle after that is just the vehicle. The only thing that has an effect on the passengers are the following:

1)Taking a penetrating hit/vehicle being wrecked.
2)Moving for the purposes of shooting/assaulting
3)Coming in from reserves. since they are in the transport, they still came in from reserves as they were not "deployed" at the beginning of the game.

rigeld2 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Its a good thing that moving a transport doesn't count as the unit inside having moved... oh yeah... nuts

Well then its a good thing that coming in from reserves in a transport lets the embarked unit pretend it didn't come in from reserves... dang, nm

If the unit gets redeployed, looks like the unit inside got redeployed too... no assaulting, sorry gents

Got a rule for that? I can g'tee the termies didn't use the scout rule, after all they can only move 6", and that vehicle just moved 12"

Correction - it redeployed.

Apologies, you are correct of course

Either way, pretending that because certain times a vehicles behaviour affects the passengers that it always does is pure nonsense.

See my post above yours for times when vehicles behavior affects passengers.

Pretending that moving a unit inside a transport is moving the transport or that deploying a vehicle is also deploying the unit inside isn't pretending though. It points out that the burden of proof is on those saying that there is not a duplicate relationship here. You need to come up with some way of saying that a transport scouting doesn't scout the embarked unit too.

We have that with damage effects and jinking. Clear lack or clear presence of rules that let us know what is/isn't happening to the unit inside.

Since models inside transports can fire, we know they're there. In scouting we know that the models location has changed via a special rule. We also know that those models can't assault if they redeployed via that special rule.

Unless you're telling me that if I ask if a unit inside a transport has been deployed and you'd tell me "no". That's certainly odd, but at least it be consistent.

 Lobukia wrote:
Pretending that moving a unit inside a transport is moving the transport or that deploying a vehicle is also deploying the unit inside isn't pretending though. It points out that the burden of proof is on those saying that there is not a duplicate relationship here. You need to come up with some way of saying that a transport scouting doesn't scout the embarked unit too.

We have that with damage effects and jinking. Clear lack or clear presence of rules that let us know what is/isn't happening to the unit inside.

Since models inside transports can fire, we know they're there. In scouting we know that the models location has changed via a special rule. We also know that those models can't assault if they redeployed via that special rule.

Unless you're telling me that if I ask if a unit inside a transport has been deployed and you'd tell me "no". That's certainly odd, but at least it be consistent.

There's a clear lack of a rule saying that an embarked unit has scouted if its transport does.
It has exactly as much rules support as an embarked unit not being penalized when its transport jinks. Literally exactly as much.

And yet you hold up the latter as the burden of proof and condemn the argument that embarked units aren't scouting as having no rules support.
The rules don't show a relationship, therefore there isn't one.

Lobukia - So a vehicle jinking means the passengers should also snap fire?

I've come up with a clear proof as to why the passengers haven't scouted: the rules do not state they do.
The burden is in you to prove, with real rules, that they have. Page and grAoh. No waffle. Real rules.

What page numbers could I come up with to disprove a non proof?

Is the unit in the transport deployed? Did it reploy? It must have scouted.

Are you saying that you have a page number and rule saying that the unit in a deployed transport isn't deployed?

I looked through this thread... where is this page number or rule you think you used... I'm not seeing it.

 Lobukia wrote:
Is the unit in the transport deployed? Did it reploy? It must have scouted.

False. It deployed, but cannot have repdeployed. Since it's embarked, the only option to redeploy would be to disembark, something that's explicitly disallowed.

 Lobukia wrote:
What page numbers could I come up with to disprove a non proof?

Is the unit in the transport deployed? Did it reploy? It must have scouted.

Are you saying that you have a page number and rule saying that the unit in a deployed transport isn't deployed?

I looked through this thread... where is this page number or rule you think you used... I'm not seeing it.

You're in error, again

The rules do not say they scouted. Meaning, under real rules, they didn't scout. So you must prove they did. So, prove it. Actual rules please. Burden is on you as you are making a positive assertion.


In fact if the vehicle moves 12" you would surely claim the scout rule was broken, as infantry making on,y redeploy 6".... Would you make that claim?

When a vehicle jinks, the vehicle benefits from the rule.... it gets a cover save. If the vehicle explodes after jinking, the models inside don't get that same cover save. So neither the pros nor the cons of jinking directly effect the unit embarked.

If a vehicle scouts 12" and explodes, the units inside are still benefitting from the scout move of the vehicle. If you get the pros of the special rule, you should also get the cons of it.

Are there any times that vehicle behavior, when it has a direct impact on the passengers (such as changing their position on the board), doesn't affect the unit?

Now, neither of you are going to find a specific rule or page number that describes exactly what the other is looking for.

So you just follow the steps.

deploy vehicles, deploy units. (declaring which transport the units are in counts as deploying them)

Now the unit's dedicated transport gets to scout. So the vehicle is redeployed 12" from its original spot. If the unit itself redeployed, they would be limited to 6"

But since the unit embarked in the transport, they considered deployed, as normal inside the transport.

But if you are looking for a specific rule, look at the WAAAGH Ghazkull supplement. There is a formation for 5 battlewagons. it gives all five battlewagons scout. But then it goes on to say that units embarked in these transports may not assault on their first turn. So this is an explicit representation of the way this specific formation works. If passengers could never assault from dedicated transports, then why they take the time to list it out in this supplement.

Also note that this is a 7th edition codex, so we are in the same edition of the rules.

If the unit inside does not scout( but the vehicle does) does that mean that the unit inside can still scout another 6"? ( say a ravenguard tac squad inside a rhino:The tac squad confers the scout rule to the rhino and the rhino is deployed with the scout squad inside. Then rhinos scouts 12" and then t the tacs scout another 6" Is this legit?

I would put it this way to end this argument.
1: If you tried playing this in a friendly game between people in your club they would most likely tell you no, RAI means that unit scouted. even thought it doesn't specifically state it, you can easily see that the point was never written because the rule designers didn't think people would try to push the bounds.
2: if you tried this in a real tournament I Guaranty you the judges would rule in favor of the terminator squad having counted as scouting.

Regardless this is one of those things that needs to be fixed by GW to put the question to bed. Props to you for finding a loop hole in that situation, I just wouldn't allow it in my games :-P

Wouldn't scouting just the vehicle cause the unit inside to be illegally deployed if you left the deployment zone? (please someone give me a good answer to this or I just opened up a can of worms I didn't want to open up)

 SilverDevilfish wrote:
Wouldn't scouting just the vehicle cause the unit inside to be illegally deployed if you left the deployment zone? (please someone give me a good answer to this or I just opened up a can of worms I didn't want to open up)

i also would like to know this . The passengers have permissions to be deployed in a vehicles , but lack the permission to be in a vehicle outside their deployment area ( because its not stated they can be )

kambien wrote:

 SilverDevilfish wrote:
Wouldn't scouting just the vehicle cause the unit inside to be illegally deployed if you left the deployment zone? (please someone give me a good answer to this or I just opened up a can of worms I didn't want to open up)

i also would like to know this . The passengers have permissions to be deployed in a vehicles , but lack the permission to be in a vehicle outside their deployment area ( because its not stated they can be )

The units are only allowed to be deployed within their deployment zone DURING the deployment phase. There is no restriction for where the models can be after the deployment phase has ended.The vehicle scouts after the deployment phase has concluded so the units embarked inside are legally moved as well (but not scouted).

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

kambien wrote:

 SilverDevilfish wrote:
Wouldn't scouting just the vehicle cause the unit inside to be illegally deployed if you left the deployment zone? (please someone give me a good answer to this or I just opened up a can of worms I didn't want to open up)

i also would like to know this . The passengers have permissions to be deployed in a vehicles , but lack the permission to be in a vehicle outside their deployment area ( because its not stated they can be )

The units are only allowed to be deployed within their deployment zone DURING the deployment phase. There is no restriction for where the models can be after the deployment phase has ended.The vehicle scouts after the deployment phase has concluded so the units embarked inside are legally moved as well (but not scouted).

Then why does it specify that scouts are allowed to move outside the deployment zone while redeploying? The scouts rule also doesn't say at the end of the deployment phase, it just says after everyone has deployed. As there's no phase between the deployment phase and the first turn wouldn't they still be in the deployment phase then?

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
The vehicle scouts after the deployment phase has concluded so the units embarked inside are legally moved as well (but not scouted).

Where do they describe this 'deployment phase'? I only see reference to the Movement, Psychic, Shooting and Assault phases.

 Ghaz wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
The vehicle scouts after the deployment phase has concluded so the units embarked inside are legally moved as well (but not scouted).

Where do they describe this 'deployment phase'? I only see reference to the Movement, Psychic, Shooting and Assault phases.

I think he's referring to the standard deployment method. (I thought deployment phase was just slang for it?)

My bad, I'm talking about when you deploy your units. This initial period is when there is a restriction on where your forces are deployed.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
My bad, I'm talking about when you deploy your units. This initial period is when there is a restriction on where your forces are deployed.

Gotcha and I can see how it flows out. That said the restriction on the Scouts redeployment move seems like a pointless distinction then.

Oh hey, the sentence I'm referring to does say "Scouts can move outside", doesn't it? Now why would it say that if the vehicle isn't moving?

 kingbobbito wrote:
When a vehicle jinks, the vehicle benefits from the rule.... it gets a cover save. If the vehicle explodes after jinking, the models inside don't get that same cover save. So neither the pros nor the cons of jinking directly effect the unit embarked.

If a vehicle scouts 12" and explodes, the units inside are still benefitting from the scout move of the vehicle. If you get the pros of the special rule, you should also get the cons of it.

Are there any times that vehicle behavior, when it has a direct impact on the passengers (such as changing their position on the board), doesn't affect the unit?

The vehicle also gets a con, snap shotting, that the unit inside does not suffer from. Ever.

It is still really simple - does it state the unit inside has also used the Scout rule? No? Then they havent.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:
When a vehicle jinks, the vehicle benefits from the rule.... it gets a cover save. If the vehicle explodes after jinking, the models inside don't get that same cover save. So neither the pros nor the cons of jinking directly effect the unit embarked.

If a vehicle scouts 12" and explodes, the units inside are still benefitting from the scout move of the vehicle. If you get the pros of the special rule, you should also get the cons of it.

Are there any times that vehicle behavior, when it has a direct impact on the passengers (such as changing their position on the board), doesn't affect the unit?

The vehicle also gets a con, snap shotting, that the unit inside does not suffer from. Ever.

It is still really simple - does it state the unit inside has also used the Scout rule? No? Then they havent.

Is the unit inside now outside of your deployment zone when you "redeployed" it? Yes
Can you deploy units outside of your deployment zone? No.

so if the scout vehicle deploys outside of your zone, the unit inside can not go with it as that would break the deployment rules.
"models must either deploy within their deployment zone, or be held back in reserve."

Either the unit inside scouts as well, or they get help back in reserves after the vehicle scouts outside of the zone.

They think they've found some clever loophole and aren't going to let it go. I've gotten philosophical on this one and am satisfied that I'll never ever see someone pull this off and any TO or club rules judge allow it when looking at the RAW. I suggest just letting it be.

Well this got out of hand quickly :O
I personally think that RaI is that the Termies scouted too, and therefore can't assault turn 1. And if you do use this tactic I don't think you'll have many opponents...