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Martel732 wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
HBC Riptides aren't awful...

Not as good as the IA Riptide but not really awful.

Lots of units that need help aren't awful. They just aren't as good as alternatives.

Well I think that might be the problem. The Riptide has and option that is so obviously superior to the other that the other is branded as "awful". Nevermind that the superior option is hugely undercosted, the fair and balanced option is "awful" simply by its nature of not being the other.

But I was referring to SGTPozy's claim that HBC Riptides are "awful".

 Ignatius wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
HBC Riptides aren't awful...

Not as good as the IA Riptide but not really awful.

Lots of units that need help aren't awful. They just aren't as good as alternatives.

Well I think that might be the problem. The Riptide has and option that is so obviously superior to the other that the other is branded as "awful". Nevermind that the superior option is hugely undercosted, the fair and balanced option is "awful" simply by its nature of not being the other.

But I was referring to SGTPozy's claim that HBC Riptides are "awful".

But I think that the Tau elite slot also might have better choices than the HBC Riptide.

Martel732 wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
HBC Riptides aren't awful...

Not as good as the IA Riptide but not really awful.

Lots of units that need help aren't awful. They just aren't as good as alternatives.

This. There are lots of units that are fine, but just get outdone either in terms of effectiveness or price

Martel732 wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
HBC Riptides aren't awful...

Not as good as the IA Riptide but not really awful.

Lots of units that need help aren't awful. They just aren't as good as alternatives.

Well I think that might be the problem. The Riptide has and option that is so obviously superior to the other that the other is branded as "awful". Nevermind that the superior option is hugely undercosted, the fair and balanced option is "awful" simply by its nature of not being the other.

But I was referring to SGTPozy's claim that HBC Riptides are "awful".

But I think that the Tau elite slot also might have better choices than the HBC Riptide.

Ignatus, pretty much this. Crisis suits will do better than the Riptide with HBC, so there is no competition.

Likewise, GK Purgation squads are not awful (yet GJ players suggest otherwise) but it is because of the Dreadknight being there.

Martel732 wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
HBC Riptides aren't awful...

Not as good as the IA Riptide but not really awful.

Lots of units that need help aren't awful. They just aren't as good as alternatives.

Well I think that might be the problem. The Riptide has and option that is so obviously superior to the other that the other is branded as "awful". Nevermind that the superior option is hugely undercosted, the fair and balanced option is "awful" simply by its nature of not being the other.

But I was referring to SGTPozy's claim that HBC Riptides are "awful".

But I think that the Tau elite slot also might have better choices than the HBC Riptide.

Perhaps. Depends on the rest of their list and what they are looking to get out of the unit. HBC Riptides have, in my opinion, an acceptable amount of damage output for the amount of damage they can take. There aren't other Elites options that are as durable (not much in the game is) while still providing a fair amount of harassment and damage. If the player is running Farsight Enclaves then that's a difficult assertion to make as well, as the other great unit in the slot can be Troops instead. Again, it depends on the rest of the army. But I would venture that a unit being evaluated based on its role in a force is a great step towards being less an auto-include and more balanced against the rest of the slot. Which is in and of itself a great thing for the game that is sadly not as ordinary as it should be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SGTPozy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
HBC Riptides aren't awful...

Not as good as the IA Riptide but not really awful.

Lots of units that need help aren't awful. They just aren't as good as alternatives.

Well I think that might be the problem. The Riptide has and option that is so obviously superior to the other that the other is branded as "awful". Nevermind that the superior option is hugely undercosted, the fair and balanced option is "awful" simply by its nature of not being the other.

But I was referring to SGTPozy's claim that HBC Riptides are "awful".

But I think that the Tau elite slot also might have better choices than the HBC Riptide.

Ignatus, pretty much this. Crisis suits will do better than the Riptide with HBC, so there is no competition.

Likewise, GK Purgation squads are not awful (yet GJ players suggest otherwise) but it is because of the Dreadknight being there.

Crisis suits do better at what? Shooting? Of course, there are more models and weapons being used. Surviving? No way. It'll depend on what you're looking to get out of the slot. If you want mid range damage output, then go for Crisis Suits. If you want durability and a distraction unit, go for a Riptide. The fact that there is a discussion about which is better, Crisis Suits or the HBC Riptide says a lot about both the balance of the units as well as the imbalance the IA Riptide creates.

Purgation Squads aren't near as effective as Dreadknights. Even if Dreadknights weren't in the codex I don't think many would take them. I'm curious as to why you claim they are something contrary to what you admit is the current opinion of them by the players who actually have experience and access to them.

SGTPozy wrote:
People love to day that armies like Eldar and Tau are 'cheesy', 'broken' or 'OP' but according to Torrent of Fire Eldar's WR is 55.1% and Tau's is 52.8%.



So here's my question; how is a 50% win rate bad? Surely winning 50% of your games is very balanced so maybe the problem lies with the underperforming armies instead.

There is a lot of information missing in that graph, so the reason you question it is because somewhere deep down you recognize that. This is not to say that they didn't do a good job, but we're left with a lot of assumptions.

1) Random sampled or stratified sample of games? IMHO only a stratified sample would work, which means: every codex, every combination. How do you know that all match combinations were played?

2) How many times for each combination 1? 2? 3+? Can you justify results with only one game in each combination?

3) How many games in total? What was your Margin of Error?

4) Who chose the lists? Were they all comers lists or were they tailored to the army they were playing at the time? Were the best units chosen each game?

5) Was the skill of each player equal? How many mistakes were made in the match? Was it significant enough to skew the data?

6) Good luck bad luck, how do you account for good/bad dice?

SGTPozy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
HBC Riptides aren't awful...

Not as good as the IA Riptide but not really awful.

Lots of units that need help aren't awful. They just aren't as good as alternatives.

Well I think that might be the problem. The Riptide has and option that is so obviously superior to the other that the other is branded as "awful". Nevermind that the superior option is hugely undercosted, the fair and balanced option is "awful" simply by its nature of not being the other.

But I was referring to SGTPozy's claim that HBC Riptides are "awful".

But I think that the Tau elite slot also might have better choices than the HBC Riptide.

Ignatus, pretty much this. Crisis suits will do better than the Riptide with HBC, so there is no competition.

Likewise, GK Purgation squads are not awful (yet GJ players suggest otherwise) but it is because of the Dreadknight being there.

Purgation squads are, in fact, awful.

They're supposed to be Devastator equivalents, but they have only short ranged weapons. The only good special weapon in the codex can't even be moved with or it loses all its offensive power, but the range is too short to stay still.

They're super expensive, have little durability, and have little melee power either. If you wanted 4 special weapons you'd be better off getting Purifiers for double the melee output plus Cleansing Flame.

If we didn't have the Dreadknight, we'd just take more terminators and not use our HS slot at all except maybe for the occasional Land Raider.

Akiasura wrote:

I have honestly missed where you describe why the unit you alone feel is overpowered is. I've never seen the unit played,

You may not like it, but there is no Riptide tactica or strategy that involves more than Do not deploy like an idiot. Place toe in area terrain...

Can you do enough damage to remove it quick enough before it does what it needs to?

Just to show you some math,
72 bolters fire... So 4 full squads of marine take roughly 2-3 wounds off of a riptide, and you must be within rapid fire range for 4 full squads.

What are you even saying here?
You claimed a unit was strong that many think are weak. You even compared yourself to galileo!
I am asking you to back up that claim, as I'd like to hear why you think it's too strong. No one else in the thread backed you up

Yes, there will always be a top 5. But how far above the rest of the game do those top 5 stand?

You barely need any of the model in cover to gain it, so it's easy to do.

Your mischaracterizations and being intentionally obtuse have ended my interest in this convo. Sorry. You're just not going to argue in good faith here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:

Aki, Janc has obviously gone insane trying to defined the Riptide against the hate. It's okay

No I just think that the tangents are getting in the way of the point of the thing. I used examples to illustrate the point we were talking about and instead of seeing those examples AS examples, you and he are treating them like they ARE the point of the convo. It's your right but I don't have to follow suit.

I'm happy to float along the river of tangents a little bit because they are inevitable, but when this becomes ALL about Eldar heavy Weapons Platforms and not at ALL about his assertions on 56% winning percentages...meh. I'm done. get another thread started on heavy weapons, or Riptide hate or whatever else you want to make the thread about. Here's what he's made it about. And I quote:


I want you to explain how night lords with rhinos stop a unit from being shot to death after winning assault.
I want you to explain why the riptide being so overpowered isn't bad for the game.
I want you to explain how riptides should be handled by some of the more average dexes, or admit that it's an overpowered unit that is bad for the game.
I want you to amaze me with your Galileo esque insight into the strategy of this game, since you have claimed to have it.

Too easily fixated, I'm sorry to say.

So, rather than answer Akiasura's requests for clarification, you're going to post a lengthy reply explaining that you're not going to answer them?

If one were cynical, one may consider you don't have any good answers and are just blustering in an effort to distract and hope nobody notices.

If one were cynical...

Purgators' god points.

They can take psylincers, so 4 Guys with them gives 24 shots (which makes them similar to the fleshborer hive on Trygon Primes, but with greater range and Bs).

They can use force allowing them to insta-kill multi-wound models up to 24" away.

Whilst heavy weapons, they can steal drop pods from SW/BA allowing them to get into range, so the argument about their range being too short is invalid.

Even snap shots will give some hits due to the volume of shots (why do you think that Orky shooting is so good?).

 Azreal13 wrote:
So, rather than answer Akiasura's requests for clarification, you're going to post a lengthy reply explaining that you're not going to answer them?

If one were cynical, one may consider you don't have any good answers and are just blustering in an effort to distract and hope nobody notices.

If one were cynical...

No one on Dakka would ever do that...

 Azreal13 wrote:
So, rather than answer Akiasura's requests for clarification, you're going to post a lengthy reply explaining that you're not going to answer them?

If one were cynical, one may consider you don't have any good answers and are just blustering in an effort to distract and hope nobody notices.

If one were cynical...

Cynicism is a choice. =)

I have written a few responses but then after reading them, I just realized where it was headed: nowhere. So. I prefer to hear what he has to say about why he thinks 56% is "so high even in normal games". I have heard nothing on that other than that he thinks its true. If one were cynical one would think he doesn't win that often, which might explain it.

If one were cynical...

But we're not going to be cynical HERE, now are we?

 Jancoran wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
So, rather than answer Akiasura's requests for clarification, you're going to post a lengthy reply explaining that you're not going to answer them?

If one were cynical, one may consider you don't have any good answers and are just blustering in an effort to distract and hope nobody notices.

If one were cynical...

Cynicism is a choice. =)

I have written a few responses but then after reading them, I just realized where it was headed: nowhere. So. I prefer to hear what he has to say about why he thinks 56% is "so high even in normal games". I have heard nothing on that other than that he thinks its true. If one were cynical one would think he doesn't win that often, which might explain it.

If one were cynical...

But we're not going to be cynical HERE, now are we?

So rather than answer his points, you're going to handwave them away? That's mature.

SGTPozy wrote:
Purgators' god points.

They can take psylincers, so 4 Guys with them gives 24 shots (which makes them similar to the fleshborer hive on Trygon Primes, but with greater range and Bs).

They can use force allowing them to insta-kill multi-wound models up to 24" away.

Whilst heavy weapons, they can steal drop pods from SW/BA allowing them to get into range, so the argument about their range being too short is invalid.

Even snap shots will give some hits due to the volume of shots (why do you think that Orky shooting is so good?).

Those ideas are horrible uses of points. Psilincers are still bad because you lose psycannons. That's not a good tactic.

 jreilly89 wrote:


So rather than answer his points, you're going to handwave them away? .

Yes, whatever handwave means is apparently what I'm doing. Sure.

I will also not be BROW BEATEN into continuing to converse with him on this by any well meaning denizen of Dakkadakka. Lol. I assume you mean well in any case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Purgators' god points.

They can take psylincers, so 4 Guys with them gives 24 shots (which makes them similar to the fleshborer hive on Trygon Primes, but with greater range and Bs).

They can use force allowing them to insta-kill multi-wound models up to 24" away.

Whilst heavy weapons, they can steal drop pods from SW/BA allowing them to get into range, so the argument about their range being too short is invalid.

Even snap shots will give some hits due to the volume of shots (why do you think that Orky shooting is so good?).

Those ideas are horrible uses of points. Psilincers are still bad because you lose psycannons. That's not a good tactic.

Not to be pedantic but weapons choices aren't tactics.

I think the thing to pull away from the actual article is that you should make sure you have the ability in your list to deal with a primary detachment of knights if you are planning on going to a big tournament and plan to make it to the top tables.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Purgators' god points.

They can take psylincers, so 4 Guys with them gives 24 shots (which makes them similar to the fleshborer hive on Trygon Primes, but with greater range and Bs).

They can use force allowing them to insta-kill multi-wound models up to 24" away.

Whilst heavy weapons, they can steal drop pods from SW/BA allowing them to get into range, so the argument about their range being too short is invalid.

Even snap shots will give some hits due to the volume of shots (why do you think that Orky shooting is so good?).

Those ideas are horrible uses of points. Psilincers are still bad because you lose psycannons. That's not a good tactic.

Not to be pedantic but weapons choices aren't tactics.

Not that it's super important but yes it is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Killermonkey wrote:
I think the thing to pull away from the actual article is that you should make sure you have the ability in your list to deal with a primary detachment of knights if you are planning on going to a big tournament and plan to make it to the top tables.

Also this is a pretty safe way to go. "Able to deal with Knights effectively" surely is towards the top of the list for the metric to determine if a list is of a competitive caliber anymore.

 Jancoran wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Purgators' god points.

They can take psylincers, so 4 Guys with them gives 24 shots (which makes them similar to the fleshborer hive on Trygon Primes, but with greater range and Bs).

They can use force allowing them to insta-kill multi-wound models up to 24" away.

Whilst heavy weapons, they can steal drop pods from SW/BA allowing them to get into range, so the argument about their range being too short is invalid.

Even snap shots will give some hits due to the volume of shots (why do you think that Orky shooting is so good?).

Those ideas are horrible uses of points. Psilincers are still bad because you lose psycannons. That's not a good tactic.

Not to be pedantic but weapons choices aren't tactics.

I was a little sparse on information, my tactic comment was referring to dropping Purgators in a Drop Pod.

Killermonkey wrote:
I think the thing to pull away from the actual article is that you should make sure you have the ability in your list to deal with a primary detachment of knights if you are planning on going to a big tournament and plan to make it to the top tables.

You're not joking. I built an army for a freind of mine and even put Haywires on my (now his) Fire Warriors AND Pathfinders which added substantially to their ability to handle the big boys.

There's a batrep on my blog recently showing serpent spam actually having to abandon positions to avoid getting whalloped by them, which was great.