Sicaran Battle Tank...the most d-bag unit ever?

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**Ashiraya**

Furyou Miko wrote:

Here, here!

Why? It makes perfect sense and displays why Ceramite armour resists melta weapons.

**Orock**

ImAGeek wrote:
Drasius wrote:
Sounds like someone got their wave serpents shot down for the 1st time to me. But yes, they are too good for their cost, even at 13/12/12 and without legacies. What else do you expect from forgeworld though?

Forge World units aren't universally overpowered so I don't get your 'what do you expect from FW' comment.

No, they aren't. Just the ones people ACTUALLY buy and use. Because they are looking for strictly better versions of things. Using things like forgeworld death korps of krieg to represent guard is fine. Crap like this is why people are switching games left and right. That and GW's insane policies lately.

**Quickjager**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
DanielBeaver wrote:
It's not the most underpriced unit in the game... but it clearly is somewhat underpriced compared to the other SM tanks (maybe SM tanks just need a price drop, or a stat boost).

The last part is correct. LasPreds are costed okay, but everything else is overcosted for effectiveness. Land Raiders die too easily, Whirlwinds have no real advantage if you just find 35 points for a TFC, Stalkers and Hunters have more limited applications, and Land Speeders die by having something mean stare at them.
The Sicaran was a godsend for the Marine players that like vehicles.

Land Raiders are the case of a tool being overcosted; you look at the stats and think... "This is a tank!" but no one wants the firepower it gives because it's overcosted and if you take one its because you want to move guys who themselves are already goddamn expensive.

**Bharring** · So 12/12/10 4+ is unkillable, but 13/12/12 can-use-cover is paper?

So 12/12/10 4+ is unkillable, but 13/12/12 can-use-cover is paper?

**Poly Ranger**

This is coming from an eldar player who can take a tank with AV12 front and side,, fast skimmer, 3+ jink, has a transport cap of 10, and has most of its shots (which are far more than a sicaran) twin linked.
Oh and it can choose to have a 2+ against pens...

AND it doesn't take up any slots.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
For just 10pts more than a base sicaran.

This is all because there is finally something reliable against serps isnt it?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
In other words no - the serpent is the most d-bag unit ever.

**Vaktathi**

Lost Vyper wrote:
Yeah...

When a unit gets TOO much of everything...yesterday, we had a game with my friend and he wanted to proxy the Sicaran Battle Tank and since we wasn´t filming, i was cool with it. BUT, the rules for that, oh my godz! Accelerator Autocannon first. Its a 48" S7 AP4 heavy 6, Rending, with rapid tracking (ignores jink saves). Yeah AND twin-linked. You can get a relic to get TANK HUNTER, and for larger games another, that can knock of Haywire. Once / game Interceptor/Skyfire...Did i mention the Ceramic Plating option? And AV13 ALL AROUND...this is when Forge World just puts EVERYTHING in to one tank. I told my friend, that this could be the unit (get a character, was it a Chaplain? Can´t remember and you can get THREE of these), that i would just not play against. And it´s cheap without any upgrades, about a predator with all lascannons...thank the dicegodz my friend thought it "a bit" OP too...i sometimes use my Forge World Hornet´s and even thou they are cheap and great, you can actually KILL THEM...they have weaknesses....that tank does not...that´s the kind of unit that takes the fun out of the game IMHO...

Does someone use these? How does the opponent look like, when i whip it out of the case? Are these used in some tournaments?

- Lost Vyper

So, have you looked at its cost, and its errata'd armor value? With sponsons and legacies and ceramite your'e talking a 220pt+ tank. LIkewise, as you said, its base cost is as much as a tri-las predator.

If you can kill a predator...you can kill a Sicaran. It's hardly anywhere near as abusive as the common Wave Serpent is.

Also, did you never play against the old IG Hydra? It had the same jink-save ignoring capability.

**marful**

*Cough*HORNET*Cough*

4x S8 AP2 shots for 80 points on a fast skimmer platform and you are complaining about a Sicaran?

Really?

**Col. Dash**

oh and doesn't the Hornet outflank as well or did they nix that?

**jhe90**

However this seems a too good tank, the thing costs a small fortune, + the rule book not many players are going to feild more than one.

these are not going to be in every army, however much i want one purely because the look awesome, the being good is secondry.

**Lobokai**

In any game where wave serpents and Imperial Knights exist along with 2+ re-rollable saves... an AV 13/12/12 tank with AP 4 weaponry can't really be an issue.

The whine over this is turned up way too loud

**jhe90**

the Knight is only 11 pounds more than the tank,

which is 74 vs 84 for a GW knight.

plus the rules its alot. however i still want one, im mad lol

your gonna see far less of the tank than the knight

**Poly Ranger**

Lobukia wrote:
In any game where wave serpents and Imperial Knights exist along with 2+ re-rollable saves... an AV 13/12/12 tank with AP 4 weaponry can't really be an issue.

The whine over this is turned up way too loud

It's definitely an issue if you use serpents as a crutch. Otherwise you are completely correct.

With the schism of mars + lascannons + ceremite you are talking almost landraider price, for a tank with lower armour, less hps, no transport cap but much better weaponary. Don't get me wrong - with schism (or sarosh) it is imo the best tank marines have. I just find it ironic (and hypocritical) that only eldar players complain about it. We all know why though.

**Bharring**

Oh, I complain about Serpents and Pulse Laser hornets to anyone who listens, too (such a beautiful model, though!).

But the Siccaran...

**DanielBeaver**

marful wrote:
*Cough*HORNET*Cough*

4x S8 AP2 shots for 80 points on a fast skimmer platform and you are complaining about a Sicaran?

Really?

Yes, the Hornet (and especially the Pulse Laser upgrade) is absurdly undercosted. The Sicaran is also undercosted - just not to the same degree.

**Sir Arun**

I personally think Sicaran Venator Tank Destroyers are scarier.

**Azreal13**

Against armour, possibly, but the vanilla Sicaran has greater utility, it's a damn fine anti infantry platform once it's done butchering transports and medium armour.

**ImAGeek**

The Venator is a fair bit more expensive too isn't it? The extra price and the fact it only really fills one role, which might be pretty useless if your opponent doesn't have any heavy armour makes it a bit less attractive. Sweet ass model though. Both of them actually.

**Desubot**

Is it "FW OP" time of the month already?

Jebus man.

Yep its pretty fethin strong just like a lot of things are strong and its very very VERY strong against a particular foe.

But Over powered? hardly.

**BrianDavion**

as for armored ceremite, I'll agree it's out of place on the Sicaran. Ceramite plating should be reserved strictly for air units. it makes sense as it's basicly plating designed to protect against the heat of re-entry... why's a TANK need that?

**Slaanesh-Devotee**

Col. Dash wrote:
Ceramite is 20 points, not like its a cheap upgrade. I have never used or looked at the legacies since I play 30k armies and as far as I am aware, we don't have access to them, I will agree some of them sound broken, but then since its FW, they probably cost a lot of points.

I don't mind the cost of Ceramite, and I'd probably grumble quieter if it was named something else.

Everything in this universe is already Ceramite. Melta is already taking that into account. Only the rarest of the rare should be able to ignore the specific technologies designed to destroy tanks in this universe. It's like how everything Marine back in 2nd had targeters. The rules need to take such things into account already if we don't want to end up with a few crazily powerful models dominating the game.

I guess some people like that, but I want to see an army on the table myself.

**ImAGeek**

BrianDavion wrote:
as for armored ceremite, I'll agree it's out of place on the Sicaran. Ceramite plating should be reserved strictly for air units. it makes sense as it's basicly plating designed to protect against the heat of re-entry... why's a TANK need that?

Because people were sick of their expensive tanks being slagged by Melta, and thought 'maybe this stuff we put on our flyers so they don't melt in the atmosphere would work against Melta guns'.

**Hollismason**

I'm pretty sure Forge World just uses a random roll flowchart when it comes to the creation of rules so yeah of course it's overpowered. Forgeworld is either insane or garbage no in between.

**faerrrd**

an expensive transport destoyer, can't for the life of me understand why anybody but eldar and dark eldar players should whine over this unit. it is extraordinarily good against skimmers put so what, against monsters and high AV it does nothing, and AP 4 makes it suck against all kinds of marine armies. with a point cost of 135 it should work perfectly fine against its chosen targets.
To the problem of the tanks survivability, why is it a problem, just because you can't melta the thing you should have some str 8 at least, the sicaran can't jink, like most of the vehicles it is god against so when they are shooting at eachother, the sicaran at least have a fair chance. killing a wave serpent or just a normal DE raider with autocannons with the new jink rules are damn near impossible...

**ImAGeek**

Hollismason wrote:
I'm pretty sure Forge World just uses a random roll flowchart when it comes to the creation of rules so yeah of course it's overpowered. Forgeworld is either insane or garbage no in between.

Except you know their whole Heresy range which bar 1 or 2 outliers either side is pretty well balanced.

**Desubot**

Hollismason wrote:
I'm pretty sure Forge World just uses a random roll flowchart when it comes to the creation of rules so yeah of course it's overpowered. Forgeworld is either insane or garbage no in between.

Please can you explain why its overpowered as apposed to "strong"? at what point did it go over the power limit?

Edit: Also what are targeters from second edition?

**Vaktathi**

Hollismason wrote:
I'm pretty sure Forge World just uses a random roll flowchart when it comes to the creation of rules so yeah of course it's overpowered. Forgeworld is either insane or garbage no in between.

Ok, so...what exactly makes this thing overpowered?

Likewise, there are lots of "middle ground" FW units. Medusas, Hazard Suits, Relic Predators, Hell Blades, etc.

**BigMekGearGrinda**

Poly Ranger wrote:
This is coming from an eldar player who can take a tank with AV12 front and side,, fast skimmer, 3+ jink, has a transport cap of 10, and has most of its shots (which are far more than a sicaran) twin linked.
Oh and it can choose to have a 2+ against pens...

AND it doesn't take up any slots.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
For just 10pts more than a base sicaran.

This is all because there is finally something reliable against serps isnt it?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
In other words no - the serpent is the most d-bag unit ever.

Exalted! LOL!

I'm buyin 1 ... or maybe 3

Let The Serpents Hit The Floor!
Let The Serpents Hit The Floor!
Let The Serpents Hit The Floor!

**Tannhauser42**

BrianDavion wrote:
as for armored ceremite, I'll agree it's out of place on the Sicaran. Ceramite plating should be reserved strictly for air units. it makes sense as it's basicly plating designed to protect against the heat of re-entry... why's a TANK need that?

Because tanks have to survive re-entry sometimes, too.

**Soo'Vah'Cha**

there are no D-bag units...just D-bag players.

**Lobokai**

The Sicaran is a very reasonable tank. Do the math on how many turns it still takes one to kill a standard wave serpent. It's really not that impressive. There are some OP FW things. This isn't one.