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2015/05/08 12:55:51
Subject: The Political Junkie Thread- UK Edition! Election Aftermath P20+
Are left-wing politics finally dead in the Western world, or is it just that people would prefer to suffer in stability than risk change?
I think its more a case of politicians and the mainstream media thinking that left wing politics are dead. The SNP result suggests a different narrative.
And yet, one major criticism from a lot of quarters was that Labour's policy set was too Left, and that they need to move closer to the centre.
Times like this I wish I lived in Scotland, at least there I could vote for the Left (as in actual Left, not Left of Centre) and actually have a chance of getting that...
2015/05/08 12:58:54
Subject: The Political Junkie Thread- UK Edition! Election Aftermath P20+
This has been quite the purge of left-wing British politicians.
I'm wondering if this is a part of a larger trend in the post-recession West. The US voted in a Republican Congress, we've got Merkel in Germany, I believe the French left got blasted in their last election. Then we have the Greeks daring to elect a socialist, anti-austerity party and the whole of Europe went into meltdown.
Are left-wing politics finally dead in the Western world, or is it just that people would prefer to suffer in stability than risk change?
It's a myth that left-wingers bankrupt a country and right-wingers restore economic stability.
In my lifetime I've seen the Tories in charge when the Black Wednesday disaster happened, and I've seen them cause recessions left right and centre with their property bubbles.
Agreed; I have every faith that a Labour/SNP coalition could have genuinely and measurably improved quality of life for the citizens of the UK without leaving the nation penniless, but as long as the Cold War myths that Left=terrible/useless/dangerous are perpetuated, the Conservatives will remain in power, to slowly wring every last penny from the poor and line their own pockets, and those of the bankers and 1%ers that prop them up.
2015/05/08 13:05:20
Subject: The Political Junkie Thread- UK Edition! Election Aftermath P20+
This has been quite the purge of left-wing British politicians.
I'm wondering if this is a part of a larger trend in the post-recession West. The US voted in a Republican Congress, we've got Merkel in Germany, I believe the French left got blasted in their last election. Then we have the Greeks daring to elect a socialist, anti-austerity party and the whole of Europe went into meltdown.
Are left-wing politics finally dead in the Western world, or is it just that people would prefer to suffer in stability than risk change?
It's a myth that left-wingers bankrupt a country and right-wingers restore economic stability.
In my lifetime I've seen the Tories in charge when the Black Wednesday disaster happened, and I've seen them cause recessions left right and centre with their property bubbles.
Agreed; I have every faith that a Labour/SNP coalition could have genuinely and measurably improved quality of life for the citizens of the UK without leaving the nation penniless, but as long as the Cold War myths that Left=terrible/useless/dangerous are perpetuated, the Conservatives will remain in power, to slowly wring every last penny from the poor and line their own pockets, and those of the bankers and 1%ers that prop them up.
Well, at least Ed has a tombstone for the death of his political career.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/08 13:06:02
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
2015/05/08 13:06:28
Subject: The Political Junkie Thread- UK Edition! Election Aftermath P20+
1. Cameron scraping into government with two (?) seats majority is not a major victory. It actually puts him a couple of scandals or heart attacks away from being a minority government. Nearly six out of ten voters didn't want him in power.
2. Yes, the Conservatives probably lost votes to UKIP. They probably gained votes from the Liberals. The Liberal vote collapsed from about 25% to under 8%, all those votes had to go somewhere.
3. UKIP are nasty scum but they scored 13% of the vote and got no (?) seats at all. There is something wrong there.
4. The SNP may have won all the seats in Scotland but they only won half the votes.
All the above is evidence of a democratic deficit in the UK constitution, IMO.
Ketara is right about the Labour Party.
They're still significantly ahead of any other party. Not sure who they'd have to partner up with if they lost seats, DUP maybe?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/08 13:07:28
We love what we love. Reason does not enter into it. In many ways, unwise love is the truest love. Anyone can love a thing because. That's as easy as putting a penny in your pocket. But to love something despite. To know the flaws and love them too. That is rare and pure and perfect.
Chaos Knights: 2000 PTS
Thousand Sons: 2000 PTS - In Progress
Tyranids: 2000 PTS
Adeptus Mechanicus: 2000 PTS
Adeptus Custodes: 2000 PTS - In Progress
2015/05/08 13:12:44
Subject: The Political Junkie Thread- UK Edition! Election Aftermath P20+
there was a "Cannabis Is Safer Than Alcohol" party ?! .. is there a token party joke here somewhere ?
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2015/05/08 13:24:26
Subject: The Political Junkie Thread- UK Edition! Election Aftermath P20+
1. Cameron scraping into government with two (?) seats majority is not a major victory. It actually puts him a couple of scandals or heart attacks away from being a minority government. Nearly six out of ten voters didn't want him in power.
Remember the landslide Labour victory in 1997 where they got over 400 seats? They only got 43% of the vote then, so nearly 6 in 10 voters didn't want them in power either. First Past The Post is unfair, it means a huge amount of votes just don't count for anything.
2015/05/08 13:44:25
Subject: The Political Junkie Thread- UK Edition! Election Aftermath P20+
Steve steveson wrote: I hope they use it wisely or we may face more calls for changes to the electoral system which will hurt them now they are no longer a minor party, and help UKIP, which I would rather did not happen.
Nicola Sturgeon is publicly in favour of PR, so while it would hurt the SNP in terms of MPs the SNP appears to be strong enough to accept that to do the right thing.
And yet, one major criticism from a lot of quarters was that Labour's policy set was too Left, and that they need to move closer to the centre.
Criticisms from who? Perhaps mainstream media and other politicians? How can the utter demolition of Scottish Labour be seen in terms other than a rejection of their policies in favour of a more left wing (or at least one that sounds like it is) party? One of the main reasons that Yes voters gave was that Westminster was too right wing.....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/08 13:51:31
And yet, one major criticism from a lot of quarters was that Labour's policy set was too Left, and that they need to move closer to the centre.
Criticisms from who? Perhaps mainstream media and other politicians? How can the utter demolition of Scottish Labour be seen in terms other than a rejection of their policies in favour of a more left wing party? One of the main reasons that Yes voters gave was that Westminster was too right wing.....
It was mentioned several times by pundits/guests in the BBC coverage. Of course, it's too early to actually make predictions, but there does seem to have been a shift Right, which I imagine Labour may follow to do better next time. I guess it depends on how strong the convictions of the new leader are.
On another note, the Lib Dems lost £169,000 in deposits to run. Painful if you're one of them, but hilarious if you're anyone else.
2015/05/08 13:54:13
Subject: Re:The Political Junkie Thread- UK Edition! Election Aftermath P20+
there was a "Cannabis Is Safer Than Alcohol" party ?! .. is there a token party joke here somewhere ?
Huh? Hey I saw that cannabis leaf on my ballot paper and didn't even look to twice to see what the hell it was about. Nah I just had a swatch at if the Communists were there at all. Yup, right down at the bottom (as in way beneath the cannabis leaf, which IIRC was above the SNP too). Heh, no bias to the layout of that paper, not that that sort of thing matters unless you're always just ticking the same box no matter which party's in it.
2015/05/08 14:02:34
Subject: The Political Junkie Thread- UK Edition! Election Aftermath P20+
There was a referendum a few years ago on that very question, Britain voted no to PR.
Also KK, branding 3.8m UKIp voters utter scum seems beyond the pale. There are legitamate concerns raised by UKIP and it's supporters and they deserve a bit more that off the cuff dismissal.
How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website "
2015/05/08 14:05:19
Subject: Re:The Political Junkie Thread- UK Edition! Election Aftermath P20+
there was a "Cannabis Is Safer Than Alcohol" party ?! .. is there a token party joke here somewhere ?
Huh? Hey I saw that cannabis leaf on my ballot paper and didn't even look to twice to see what the hell it was about. Nah I just had a swatch at if the Communists were there at all. Yup, right down at the bottom (as in way beneath the cannabis leaf, which IIRC was above the SNP too). Heh, no bias to the layout of that paper, not that that sort of thing matters unless you're always just ticking the same box no matter which party's in it.
The ballot papers are laid out in alphabetical order by candidate name. No bias. If you want to get to the top of the paper change your name to Aaron A Aagre
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/08 14:14:27
insaniak wrote: Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
2015/05/08 14:14:02
Subject: The Political Junkie Thread- UK Edition! Election Aftermath P20+
notprop wrote: There was a referendum a few years ago on that very question, Britain voted no to PR.
Also KK, branding 3.8m UKIp voters utter scum seems beyond the pale. There are legitamate concerns raised by UKIP and it's supporters and they deserve a bit more that off the cuff dismissal.
There was referendum on an alternative vote system, not proportional representation.
That AV referendum was basically the only thing the Lib-Dems got out of the coalition and the Tories promptly annihilated it with a smear campaign in the run up.
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2015/05/08 14:14:06
Subject: The Political Junkie Thread- UK Edition! Election Aftermath P20+
A referendum that happened because of the much maligned Lib Dems, oh how things go around!
And whilst I despise UKIP and I am very annoyed that they even got close to having an influence, I lay the blame for this squarely at the feet of the major parties. They totally failed to a have a real and sensible conversation about people's concerns with regard to the level of efficiency and accountability in the EU and the strain that mass migration has on our social infrastructure, etc.
All the gloss of the modern media spin machines means they couldn't even mention it, for fear of being branded as racists and bigots. If they'd at least partially dealt with these issues, or even acknowledged that they existed, UKIP wouldn't have had room to breathe.
Zed wrote: *All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
2015/05/08 14:17:41
Subject: The Political Junkie Thread- UK Edition! Election Aftermath P20+
Jadenim wrote: A referendum that happened because of the much maligned Lib Dems, oh how things go around!
And whilst I despise UKIP and I am very annoyed that they even got close to having an influence, I lay the blame for this squarely at the feet of the major parties. They totally failed to a have a real and sensible conversation about people's concerns with regard to the level of efficiency and accountability in the EU and the strain that mass migration has on our social infrastructure, etc.
All the gloss of the modern media spin machines means they couldn't even mention it, for fear of being branded as racists and bigots. If they'd at least partially dealt with these issues, or even acknowledged that they existed, UKIP wouldn't have had room to breathe.
It's hard to argue that it's the fault of super-PC media that there couldn't be a discussion on immigration when the Daily Mail exists
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/08 14:20:17
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2015/05/08 14:22:11
Subject: The Political Junkie Thread- UK Edition! Election Aftermath P20+
Jadenim wrote: A referendum that happened because of the much maligned Lib Dems, oh how things go around!
And whilst I despise UKIP and I am very annoyed that they even got close to having an influence, I lay the blame for this squarely at the feet of the major parties. They totally failed to a have a real and sensible conversation about people's concerns with regard to the level of efficiency and accountability in the EU and the strain that mass migration has on our social infrastructure, etc.
All the gloss of the modern media spin machines means they couldn't even mention it, for fear of being branded as racists and bigots. If they'd at least partially dealt with these issues, or even acknowledged that they existed, UKIP wouldn't have had room to breathe.
The thing is though that they do acknowledge peoples worries, but are accused of dismissing them when they disagree. All of the major parties have stated that they believe immigration is good for the UK. The problem is they are dealing with an irrational fear. For example UKIP, and many of their supporters, make no differentiation between EU migration, non EU migration, illegal immigration and asylum seekers. How do you address an irrational fear? The facts do not back up the idea that mass migration is the issue UKIP claim.
The conservatives have addresses the EU issue far more clearly than UKIP. They have said they will re-negotiate with the EU and give us a referendum. Lib Dems also offerd a referendum. I don't see what more they could do than say "People have problems with being in the EU. We will give you a vote on it".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/08 14:24:04
insaniak wrote: Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
2015/05/08 14:41:58
Subject: The Political Junkie Thread- UK Edition! Election Aftermath P20+
It's not that the media is PC, it's the way the political parties use it. They're so scared of saying anything outside of a beige middle ground, for fear of their opponents jumping up and down comparing them to <insert dictator of choice>. To my mind, that was part of the reason the SNP have got so much coverage and done so well; whether you agree with them or not they at least had the balls to get off the middle ground and set out their own agenda.
I acknowledge that people's fear of immigration is totally irrational (when you get down to it, most of people's actual complaints are due to lack of investment in social infrastructure), but from my point of view, the main parties only started to talk about it once UKIP started gaining ground. And by that point it was too late, because the tone of the conversation had already been set.
Zed wrote: *All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
2015/05/08 16:17:48
Subject: Re:The Political Junkie Thread- UK Edition! Election Aftermath P20+
notprop wrote: There was a referendum a few years ago on that very question, Britain voted no to PR.
Also KK, branding 3.8m UKIp voters utter scum seems beyond the pale. There are legitamate concerns raised by UKIP and it's supporters and they deserve a bit more that off the cuff dismissal.
UKIP's concerns aren't legitimate, they are ignorant bollocks based on xenophobia and racism emerging under the strain of discontent whipped up by the press and chancer politicians.
The evidence is clear that the EU and immigration are positive things for the country. But people think we have a problem and everything will be fixed by kicking my and Legoburner's wives out of the country.
Ravenous D wrote: 40K is like a beloved grandparent that is slowly falling into dementia and the rest of the family is in denial about how bad it is.
squidhills wrote: GW is scared of girls. Why do you think they have so much trouble sculpting attractive female models? Because girls have cooties and the staff at GW don't like looking at them for too long because it makes them feel funny in their naughty place.
2015/05/08 17:01:22
Subject: The Political Junkie Thread- UK Edition! Election Aftermath P20+
notprop wrote: There was a referendum a few years ago on that very question, Britain voted no to PR.
Also KK, branding 3.8m UKIp voters utter scum seems beyond the pale. There are legitamate concerns raised by UKIP and it's supporters and they deserve a bit more that off the cuff dismissal.
UKIP's concerns aren't legitimate, they are ignorant bollocks based on xenophobia and racism emerging under the strain of discontent whipped up by the press and chancer politicians.
The evidence is clear that the EU and immigration are positive things for the country. But people think we have a problem and everything will be fixed by kicking my and Legoburner's wives out of the country.
I was pretty shocked by the result. I guess England is a lot more right wing than even I gave it credit for. Fair enough.
Hope you guys vote to stay in the EU, I gotta say. Not optimistic though.
The SNP win was really impressive, but I wonder what they'll be able to do, simply being in opposition and not really being able to influence the various votes.
But people think we have a problem and everything will be fixed by kicking my and Legoburner's wives out of the country.
My wife as well. No one ever seems to mention the hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of UK citizens who live and/or work within the wider EU either. UKIPs entire basis for existence is based upon little more than ignorance and the few areas where there is substance to their claims it can just as easily be blamed on insufficient local government funding and governmental inefficiencies.Its all moot now though.
The SNP win was really impressive, but I wonder what they'll be able to do, simply being in opposition and not really being able to influence the various votes.
In the long term I can't think of a better result for the SNP. A deal with Labour would have damaged their credibility as they would have huge difficulty pushing their agenda with a party that would outnumber about 5:1. As it stands though the SNP will be able to act as an energetic opposition and cement their position as the anti austerity party without being tainted by the inevitable compromises.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/05/08 17:19:15
But people think we have a problem and everything will be fixed by kicking my and Legoburner's wives out of the country.
My wife as well. No one ever seems to mention the hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of UK citizens who live and/or work within the wider EU either.
They'll kick out muh wife!
Despite the fact Nigel's wife is German and they aren't against immigration.
They just want it to be more selective which is in line with the rest of the world
I had a look at the summary of the UKIP manifesto and some of it I really liked.
Prestor Jon wrote: Because children don't have any legal rights until they're adults. A minor is the responsiblity of the parent and has no legal rights except through his/her legal guardian or parent.
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