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So, going over the codex again and again, and talking with some friends of mine, I've realized that Necrons, while very well balanced internally, are crazy powerful compared to how they used to be. I've sat down and thought of all the issues I've had fighting against other armies, and no armies out there (save for an entire Imperial Knight army) really threatens me anymore. Necrons see to have an answer for everything, since all of their units are viable now. HQs aren't quite as killy, but more supportive, and arguable harder to kill. Troops are tough as nails. Elites are cheaper and everything has a viable use. Heavy Supports are worth it now. Fast Attack are still good, and even more became good. And the Decurion Detachment is ridiculous. Sure, I personally feel it gives the book it's own flavor, and is very fluffy in itself, but the benefits seem to be too good, when you think about it.
Necrons very well could be the next Eldar in terms of power level, though without a lot of cheese. I don't wanna become "that guy" that nobody wants to play because Necrons are too good.
Do you guys think the power level is in a good spot? Or is it too much to handle compared to other 7th edition codexes? And if it is too much, what can we expect to see from other 7th edition codexes when they start updating them. What are your guy's thoughts on this matter?
I also apologize ahead of time if there is a thread already about this and I missed it.
I think it is a good codex, but in competitive sphere I do not think that it can usurp the eldar. I think it would be middle of the pack with likes of SW. Necrons excel in being walls/tanks, though I think they will have issues with maelstrom missions.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/06 19:04:56
oz of the north wrote: I think it is a good codex, but in competitive sphere I do not think that it can usurp the eldar. I think it would be middle of the pack with likes of SW.
Why can't it usurp the Eldar? Lets loot at Serpent spam. We now have our own ignores cover, on a durable unit, which when backed up by a bargelord, would start to destroy their serpents turn 2. Then, Deathmarks can still deal with Wraithknights easily, as well as everything in our army being able to wound it now.
oz of the north wrote: I think it is a good codex, but in competitive sphere I do not think that it can usurp the eldar. I think it would be middle of the pack with likes of SW.
Why can't it usurp the Eldar? Lets loot at Serpent spam. We now have our own ignores cover, on a durable unit, which when backed up by a bargelord, would start to destroy their serpents turn 2. Then, Deathmarks can still deal with Wraithknights easily, as well as everything in our army being able to wound it now.
The eldar have the benefit of mobility that Necrons do not have a lot of, the only really ignore cover is on tomb blades. Also deathmarks can deal with a wraithknight, but after first turn in from deepstrike, you still just wound on a 4+, when wraithknight can easily kill entire unit.
Also no psyker really sucks or good psychic defense, with the only thing being spyders.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/06 19:08:40
oz of the north wrote: I think it is a good codex, but in competitive sphere I do not think that it can usurp the eldar. I think it would be middle of the pack with likes of SW.
Why can't it usurp the Eldar? Lets loot at Serpent spam. We now have our own ignores cover, on a durable unit, which when backed up by a bargelord, would start to destroy their serpents turn 2. Then, Deathmarks can still deal with Wraithknights easily, as well as everything in our army being able to wound it now.
The eldar have the benefit of mobility that Necrons do not have a lot of, the only really ignore cover is on tomb blades. Also deathmarks can deal with a wraithknight, but after first turn in from deepstrike, you still just wound on a 4+, when wraithknight can easily kill entire unit.
Also no psyker really sucks or good psychic defense, with the only thing being spyders.
I dunno, I feel as if you're not giving Necrons enough credit. Sure, in Maelstrom, Eldar have a huge advantage, but competitive games are hardly Maelstrom from what I've seen. And if Deathmarks don't kill a Wraithknight in one turn of shooting, they rolled really badly.
Oh the Tau codex sucks. The Eldar codex sucks. Oh wait this was when people were reading the books and didn't try it. Now look. OMG Tau is OP. OMG Eldar is OP.
Now it's Necrons are OP by reading but yet no games played. Why not play over 10 games with the new Necrons before crying Chicken Little or saying how OP is everything?
Funny nobody, NOBODY was saying that when Tau and Eldar came out. Look what happens when a few games are played and proves everyone wrong.
I say take the ants out of the pants, relax, play a few games first and then see what happens.
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
oz of the north wrote: I think it is a good codex, but in competitive sphere I do not think that it can usurp the eldar. I think it would be middle of the pack with likes of SW.
Why can't it usurp the Eldar? Lets loot at Serpent spam. We now have our own ignores cover, on a durable unit, which when backed up by a bargelord, would start to destroy their serpents turn 2. Then, Deathmarks can still deal with Wraithknights easily, as well as everything in our army being able to wound it now.
The eldar have the benefit of mobility that Necrons do not have a lot of, the only really ignore cover is on tomb blades. Also deathmarks can deal with a wraithknight, but after first turn in from deepstrike, you still just wound on a 4+, when wraithknight can easily kill entire unit.
Also no psyker really sucks or good psychic defense, with the only thing being spyders.
I dunno, I feel as if you're not giving Necrons enough credit. Sure, in Maelstrom, Eldar have a huge advantage, but competitive games are hardly Maelstrom from what I've seen. And if Deathmarks don't kill a Wraithknight in one turn of shooting, they rolled really badly.
To be honest I feel you, and many other but not all necron playerS, are giving it to much credit. It's too tier... I'd say probably 4th best. Under tau, eldar, and imperial knights. Not near the best. It's.. meh for top tier.
Davor wrote: Oh the Tau codex sucks. The Eldar codex sucks. Oh wait this was when people were reading the books and didn't try it. Now look. OMG Tau is OP. OMG Eldar is OP.
Now it's Necrons are OP by reading but yet no games played. Why not play over 10 games with the new Necrons before crying Chicken Little or saying how OP is everything?
Funny nobody, NOBODY was saying that when Tau and Eldar came out. Look what happens when a few games are played and proves everyone wrong.
I say take the ants out of the pants, relax, play a few games first and then see what happens.
Well, sir. Sorry to upset you.
I have played a game so far, and I played against Khorne and Tzeentch Daemons, using things that are considered sub-optimal in the old book (Monolith, Nightbringer, Imotehk). My warriors survived a charge from Bloodcrushers, that dealt 19 wounds. I lost 2 wounds, and proceeded to tie combat. And the Nightbringer beat the snot out of a buffed up Lord of Change in CC.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/06 20:16:13
Davor wrote: Oh the Tau codex sucks. The Eldar codex sucks. Oh wait this was when people were reading the books and didn't try it. Now look. OMG Tau is OP. OMG Eldar is OP.
Now it's Necrons are OP by reading but yet no games played. Why not play over 10 games with the new Necrons before crying Chicken Little or saying how OP is everything?
Funny nobody, NOBODY was saying that when Tau and Eldar came out. Look what happens when a few games are played and proves everyone wrong.
I say take the ants out of the pants, relax, play a few games first and then see what happens.
Well, sir. Sorry to upset you.
I have played a game so far, and I played against Khorne and Tzzentch Daemons, using things that are considered sub-optimal in the old book (Monolith, Nightbringer, Imotehk). My warriors survived a charge from Bloodcrushers, that dealt 19 wounds. I lost 2 wounds, and proceeded to tie combat. And the Nightbringer beat the snot out of a buffed up Lord of Change in CC.
You are not upsetting me. What I was saying is reading something doesn't prove nothing. By playing multiple games then you can prove something. It's great you played a game. Now you are doing something that a lot of people are not doing. Playing the game with facts instead of Mathhammer.
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
Davor wrote: Oh the Tau codex sucks. The Eldar codex sucks. Oh wait this was when people were reading the books and didn't try it. Now look. OMG Tau is OP. OMG Eldar is OP.
Now it's Necrons are OP by reading but yet no games played. Why not play over 10 games with the new Necrons before crying Chicken Little or saying how OP is everything?
Funny nobody, NOBODY was saying that when Tau and Eldar came out. Look what happens when a few games are played and proves everyone wrong.
I say take the ants out of the pants, relax, play a few games first and then see what happens.
Well, sir. Sorry to upset you.
I have played a game so far, and I played against Khorne and Tzzentch Daemons, using things that are considered sub-optimal in the old book (Monolith, Nightbringer, Imotehk). My warriors survived a charge from Bloodcrushers, that dealt 19 wounds. I lost 2 wounds, and proceeded to tie combat. And the Nightbringer beat the snot out of a buffed up Lord of Change in CC.
You are not upsetting me. What I was saying is reading something doesn't prove nothing. By playing multiple games then you can prove something. It's great you played a game. Now you are doing something that a lot of people are not doing. Playing the game with facts instead of Mathhammer.
I hate mathhamering. I'm just saying after my first list, even with suboptimal units from the previous codex, I tabled a good Daemon player. Now, obviously I have to play more games, but all the units I'd love to use seem to be a whole lot better now. I was already doing well with Necrons before. Now, I don't even know. >.>
I don't think it will, it is basically just a ward save from fantasy. It is not that hard to get around just got to use overwhelming firepower.
"It's not broken, you just need to have an absurd amount of firepower to get around it!"
I don't think I've seen a sillier response to something in quite some time.
Honestly, the Necron codex is very strong. There's no doubting it's a major reversal in power level trend of the late 6E and earlier 7E books. The army has mobility (not exactly 48" movement-in-one-turn mobility, but it's always in motion), it's certainly got firepower and punch, and insane resiliency.
The book bearing out to be as strong as Eldar would not surprise me in the least, particularly in places that have no restrictions on formations.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
I don't think it will, it is basically just a ward save from fantasy. It is not that hard to get around just got to use overwhelming firepower.
"It's not broken, you just need to have an absurd amount of firepower to get around it!"
I don't think I've seen a sillier response to something in quite some time.
Honestly, the Necron codex is very strong. There's no doubting it's a major reversal in power level trend of the late 6E and earlier 7E books. The army has mobility (not exactly 48" movement-in-one-turn mobility, but it's always in motion), it's certainly got firepower and punch, and insane resiliency.
The book bearing out to be as strong as Eldar would not surprise me in the least, particularly in places that have no restrictions on formations.
I should have probably worded that better,similar to last edition focus fire on units and they will go down easily, then move onto next. But, a better FNP is not going to make the Necrons top tier. They are lacking psykers, which with the advent of invisibility will really cripple them, along with multiple other psychic abilities. Necrons are resilient, but do not have super killing power. Wounding/glancing on a 6 on gauss is nice, but not being able to easily ignore saves is what is going to cause big issues.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/06 20:42:00
Played 2 games last night vs wraith and destroyer spam and got housed. I run ork speed freaks and used to handle wraiths pretty easy, that T5 is a huge game changer. And the 4+ uber fnp on warriors and destroyers can be pretty frustrating. It was only two games but it feels like necrons are going to a beast in casual games and solid in tournys.
If it is a tournie that allows any LoW, then Necrons will have a tough time just based on they do not have access to regular Str. D blasts, where a revenant/phantom not sure which is which has multiple a turn.
I don't think it will, it is basically just a ward save from fantasy. It is not that hard to get around just got to use overwhelming firepower.
"It's not broken, you just need to have an absurd amount of firepower to get around it!"
I don't think I've seen a sillier response to something in quite some time.
Honestly, the Necron codex is very strong. There's no doubting it's a major reversal in power level trend of the late 6E and earlier 7E books. The army has mobility (not exactly 48" movement-in-one-turn mobility, but it's always in motion), it's certainly got firepower and punch, and insane resiliency.
The book bearing out to be as strong as Eldar would not surprise me in the least, particularly in places that have no restrictions on formations.
I should have probably worded that better,similar to last edition focus fire on units and they will go down easily, then move onto next. But, a better FNP is not going to make the Necrons top tier. They are lacking psykers, which with the advent of invisibility will really cripple them, along with multiple other psychic abilities. Necrons are resilient, but do not have super killing power. Wounding/glancing on a 6 on gauss is nice, but not being able to easily ignore saves is what is going to cause big issues.
To be fair, other armies without access to Psykers, or Invisibility, routinely do well in Tournaments, such as Tau. They do have a relatively cheap Artefact that gives them the benefit of Invisibility for a turn. It's hard to see where they lack super killing power, as aside from Tesla not working on Snapshots and a couple units going up in price a bit, they retain largely the same shooting capability (actually much better if you include Formations), but even better CC capabilities and much more resiliency to ensure that firepower sticks around for more turns.
oz of the north wrote: If it is a tournie that allows any LoW, then Necrons will have a tough time just based on they do not have access to regular Str. D blasts, where a revenant/phantom not sure which is which has multiple a turn.
Most events I believe exclude such from participating, I know you won't see any in the NOVA open for example, while the LVO has a heavily restricted list which I don't believe includes any D strength toting units, and while I think the Adepticon 40k championships will allow them, they're limited to those 615pts and under which limits D strength units considerably. That said, the Necrons do have access to the Forgeworld Gauss Pylon which, while lacking a Blast D strength weapon, does have 3 shots.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/06 21:18:01
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
I don't think it will, it is basically just a ward save from fantasy. It is not that hard to get around just got to use overwhelming firepower.
"It's not broken, you just need to have an absurd amount of firepower to get around it!"
I don't think I've seen a sillier response to something in quite some time.
Honestly, the Necron codex is very strong. There's no doubting it's a major reversal in power level trend of the late 6E and earlier 7E books. The army has mobility (not exactly 48" movement-in-one-turn mobility, but it's always in motion), it's certainly got firepower and punch, and insane resiliency.
The book bearing out to be as strong as Eldar would not surprise me in the least, particularly in places that have no restrictions on formations.
I should have probably worded that better,similar to last edition focus fire on units and they will go down easily, then move onto next. But, a better FNP is not going to make the Necrons top tier. They are lacking psykers, which with the advent of invisibility will really cripple them, along with multiple other psychic abilities. Necrons are resilient, but do not have super killing power. Wounding/glancing on a 6 on gauss is nice, but not being able to easily ignore saves is what is going to cause big issues.
I mean, they have the same killing power they had before, plus the option of always charging into combat afterwards to finish off whatever it was that survived.
Davor wrote: Oh the Tau codex sucks. The Eldar codex sucks. Oh wait this was when people were reading the books and didn't try it. Now look. OMG Tau is OP. OMG Eldar is OP.
Now it's Necrons are OP by reading but yet no games played. Why not play over 10 games with the new Necrons before crying Chicken Little or saying how OP is everything?
Funny nobody, NOBODY was saying that when Tau and Eldar came out. Look what happens when a few games are played and proves everyone wrong.
I say take the ants out of the pants, relax, play a few games first and then see what happens.
Well, sir. Sorry to upset you.
I have played a game so far, and I played against Khorne and Tzzentch Daemons, using things that are considered sub-optimal in the old book (Monolith, Nightbringer, Imotehk). My warriors survived a charge from Bloodcrushers, that dealt 19 wounds. I lost 2 wounds, and proceeded to tie combat. And the Nightbringer beat the snot out of a buffed up Lord of Change in CC.
You are not upsetting me. What I was saying is reading something doesn't prove nothing. By playing multiple games then you can prove something. It's great you played a game. Now you are doing something that a lot of people are not doing. Playing the game with facts instead of Mathhammer.
I hate mathhamering. I'm just saying after my first list, even with suboptimal units from the previous codex, I tabled a good Daemon player. Now, obviously I have to play more games, but all the units I'd love to use seem to be a whole lot better now. I was already doing well with Necrons before. Now, I don't even know. >.>
Don't even know? I say be happy. It could have been worse. You could have had the Tyranid treatment or even worse the Dark Eldar treatment and loose the characters which was rumoured. Even worse you could be playing against Tau and Eldar with a worse codex. Now you are on equal footing with them.
As I said be happy. Hopefully this will be the new direction codices are going to go now. I am hoping Tyranids and Dark Angles will get the Necron treatment when it's their turn again.
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
Hope you're wrong. The most annoying player in our group plays crons. Either rage quits when losing or floats hardcore when winning. We've been talking about kinda avoiding him if their that good.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Hope you're wrong. The most annoying player in our group plays crons. Either rage quits when losing or floats hardcore when winning. We've been talking about kinda avoiding him if their that good.
Sounds like you should be avoiding him not because Necrons are supposedly that good, but because he is an immature player. He will never change if you accept his behavior.
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
This new release has become a mess to my playgroup. I truly believe this codex is externally way above the rest, save Eldar due to the psychic phase.
Having RP become FNP is such a vast buff in my mind. Sure, many armies can give FNP to their units, but at a 4+ it becomes so hard to kill even their most basic units. Plus they have many units that can buff this, such as a stalker or technomancer. So now you have troops with a 4+ armor save, 4+ FNP, model regeneration, 5 BS with a weapon that can wound anything on a roll of 6, and with rapid fire.
What really makes this so crazy is with a 4+ FNP that simply means that all Necron's with this RP save half the wounds they would take in 5e. On top of all the other buffs (I do love flayed ones being good) this makes for an army that is insanely resilient.
I just don't find this fun at all to play against. I am all for Necron's being the resilient army, but dear god does this make them tough as nails. I am just going to start having a gunline of artillery constantly firing at their troops every game.
"While a single mass reactive bolter shell from a Space Marine can stop a single foe in their tracks, the hail of a million lasguns can halt the advance of an entire army"
Davor wrote: Oh the Tau codex sucks. The Eldar codex sucks. Oh wait this was when people were reading the books and didn't try it. Now look. OMG Tau is OP. OMG Eldar is OP.
Now it's Necrons are OP by reading but yet no games played. Why not play over 10 games with the new Necrons before crying Chicken Little or saying how OP is everything?
Funny nobody, NOBODY was saying that when Tau and Eldar came out. Look what happens when a few games are played and proves everyone wrong.
I say take the ants out of the pants, relax, play a few games first and then see what happens.
That's some pretty intense history rewriting. I know for certain our group was floored within an hour of reading the books by tau and eldar power jump. I also know I had discussions online about how strong they were.
I don't know about you, but some of us are good enough at the game that we can read the rules, points, and stats and know the quality without play testing 100 times. Maybe it's just my long gaming background, or long time of playing 40k through several editions including designing several homebrew units and scenarios, but anything that feels off by more than like...5 points is glaringly obvious to me.
You wouldn't need to play test to know that terminators with str D storm bolters are OP, right?
On topic, I'm up to 4 wins as and 2 losses against, with only 1 ludicrously lucky maelstrom win against new necrons. The card gods handed me that game for reals, and I still almost got tabled and caught up to points wise. I should mention that my last win with them was an experiment to see if I could ROLL DICE to pick my army list, fill it out with options, and win with it. Even that game was pretty one sided.
And with that lucky win, I'm currently the only person in our group to win a game against 7crons, even though both our cron players are kinda newbieish. (I did at least help them make their decurion lists.)
The book is the most powerful 7th edition book period. When you add in decurion bonuses, it becomes over the top. We're thinking about banning using a decurion against other 7dexes just to give people a chance.
Vaktathi wrote: Most events I believe exclude such from participating, I know you won't see any in the NOVA open for example, while the LVO has a heavily restricted list which I don't believe includes any D strength toting units, and while I think the Adepticon 40k championships will allow them, they're limited to those 615pts and under which limits D strength units considerably. That said, the Necrons do have access to the Forgeworld Gauss Pylon which, while lacking a Blast D strength weapon, does have 3 shots.
LVO is allowing the Lynx, Scorpion, Cobra and Shadowsword actually.
My win rate while having my arms and legs tied behind by back while blindfolded and stuffed in a safe that is submerged underwater:
100%
niv-mizzet wrote: That's some pretty intense history rewriting. I know for certain our group was floored within an hour of reading the books by tau and eldar power jump. I also know I had discussions online about how strong they were.
Im pretty sure the "Codex sucking" was during the pre release, pre leaked pic sections before rules confirmations and when rumors where getting mixed in. i do remember a bit of that back then.
I think its a good idea to join the wait and sea tribe till we get some Tourny results (for tourny power levels)
In the casual realm it is pants on head op in the context of frustration.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/06 23:00:53
I just don't find this fun at all to play against. I am all for Necron's being the resilient army, but dear god does this make them tough as nails. I am just going to start having a gunline of artillery constantly firing at their troops every game.
Agreed here. I get the theme of being the sturdiest dudes, but they already were. Then they went overboard buffing that aspect.
So now while my dudes used to worry about some of their s 10 shenanigans and their basic guns that can hurt anything, now we have that stuff AND we can't kill them. I used to cope by focusing single units down at a time to deny RP rolls. Now? I just cry.
Legion: Dark Angels 
20000+ points
