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 Jancoran wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
So here's a curious question. Why did they make the necron Monolith an Ordinance Weapon?

AP 3 ordinance is... i mean it literally can't destroy a vehicle without help. So why make it ordinance? I mean if it had been made AP 2, or just NOT ORDINANCE, it would have been fine. But they didn't.

So odd.

It was Ordnance in the 3E and 5E books too. Always has been.

The Leman Russ Battle Tank's main cannon is Ordnance, and it's AP3, it's not like it's going to be doing much other than lamely stripping HP's either.

I got all that already. What I want to know is, why? Lost the Door attack also. Same points. I mean maybe Im missing an important reason or balance they were trying to strike but it just seems like the Monolith which is iconic, kinda just isn't.

Same thing happened to the Russ. They realized that the Ordnance rule affecting it's other weaponry was dumb, gave it a rule to bypass that, then made a generic core rule that didn't really do quite the same thing and applied that instead, and thus the ordnance bearing Leman Russ tanks see relatively little use. Nobody here is a mind reader, but, much like with the Leman Russ, they probably just copy-pasted the old version without really caring to give it any thought.

Kangodo wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Yeah, dunno why that gained Primary Weapon, and the monolith is still meh.

So it can use its Gauss Flayers.
And because Relentless affects Ordnance, but not Primary Weapon.

What does Relentless affecting Ordnance have to do with anything?

I played a game last night against the new necrons at 1500 pts. My opponent took a royal court with a cryptek, nemsor zahdrik ,and one other character and put them with 20 flayed ones. he was able to deepstrike right in front of me and everybody in the squad had a 5+ invul against shooting, with a 4+ reanimation protocol. He ran is nemsor out in front with a 2+ save and absored wound after wound due to the invul and reanimations. You cant get near them because he took an artefect that was Strength 7 ap 2 flamer, and when you assault them if you dont kill atleast 10 (which is impossible due to reanimation protocol) you're going to die because they have 4 attacks each ontop of the independent characters with warsycthes and crap. And that was just one unit. I got murdered. Necrons seem ridiculously overpowered at first glance.

fixxxer76 wrote:
I played a game last night against the new necrons at 1500 pts. My opponent took a royal court with a cryptek, nemsor zahdrik ,and one other character and put them with 20 flayed ones. he was able to deepstrike right in front of me and everybody in the squad had a 5+ invul against shooting, with a 4+ reanimation protocol. He ran is nemsor out in front with a 2+ save and absored wound after wound due to the invul and reanimations. You cant get near them because he took an artefect that was Strength 7 ap 2 flamer, and when you assault them if you dont kill atleast 10 (which is impossible due to reanimation protocol) you're going to die because they have 4 attacks each ontop of the independent characters with warsycthes and crap. And that was just one unit. I got murdered. Necrons seem ridiculously overpowered at first glance.

That Deathstar unit was about half the points of his 1500 point army.

Lord with Flamer and Deepstrike artifacts (100+), Cryptek with Chronometron (95+), Nemesor Zandrek (170?), Flayed Ones (260)

The flamer artifact is a single shot item. I don't see how it held off your entire army.

Also, shooting targets the nearest enemy model. Was his manuvering so masterful that your entire army could only shoot Nemsor Zandrek ?

 adamsouza wrote:

fixxxer76 wrote:
I played a game last night against the new necrons at 1500 pts. My opponent took a royal court with a cryptek, nemsor zahdrik ,and one other character and put them with 20 flayed ones. he was able to deepstrike right in front of me and everybody in the squad had a 5+ invul against shooting, with a 4+ reanimation protocol. He ran is nemsor out in front with a 2+ save and absored wound after wound due to the invul and reanimations. You cant get near them because he took an artefect that was Strength 7 ap 2 flamer, and when you assault them if you dont kill atleast 10 (which is impossible due to reanimation protocol) you're going to die because they have 4 attacks each ontop of the independent characters with warsycthes and crap. And that was just one unit. I got murdered. Necrons seem ridiculously overpowered at first glance.

That Deathstar unit was about half the points of his 1500 point army.

Lord with Flamer and Deepstrike artifacts (100+), Cryptek with Chronometron (95+), Nemesor Zandrek (170?), Flayed Ones (260)

The flamer artifact is a single shot item. I don't see how it held off your entire army.

Also, shooting targets the nearest enemy model. Was his manuvering so masterful that your entire army could only shoot Nemsor Zandrek ?

Deathstars generally are a large portion of your points.

 BlackArmour wrote:
Deathstars generally are a large portion of your points.

True. My point was that when 750'ish point unit attacks a squad on your side of the board, which probably doesn't cost nearly as much. it's probably going to die, and has more to do with the points involved than army balance.

well if you're a mobile army, deathstars feel a lot less oppressive

Somewhere in the deepths of GW secret underground development studio in hell:
- Here, let me present you The Monolith! It's supposed to be the centerpiece of any necron army. It's a canonical pyramid that shoots in all directions, synergises well with the rest of the army and has a fearful s8 ap3 large blast!
- Large, you say? Why not make it Ordnance!
Everyone: Yeah, sounds Cool! I've always loved ordnance! The more special rules - the better!
- ...but than it won't be able to effectively use it's massive armament...
Everyone: Ordnance sounds cool! I love the name! The more special rules - the better!

yeah Ordinance was a real bad call. And think about it: AP 3 doesnt even kill a vehicle anymore. A Hullpoint is the most you can hope for and thats REAL disappointing given its supposed to be a cool weapon. Open topped vehicles might fear it I guess but psh... They already did and they jink 90% of the time. Either make it aP2 if youre going to make it ordinance OR make it not ordinance

Easy fix: GW says "oops, remove the Ordinance rule, we meant it not to be". And EVERYONE rejoices The Monolith should be freaking COOL in some way.

I'm pretty sure GWs design proccess is a series of D6 flow charts seriously they love random gak. This is basically GWs design Process

1- Increase Cost of Unit
2-5 Cost Remain the same but roll twice on special abilities
6 Reduce cost by half Reroll

Abilities
1- Fear
2-3 Ability that has no use
3-5 Ability that has situational use
6- Ability that actually matches unit

The Necron codex rolled really well on it's create a codex chart and we got a lot of rerolls, meanwhiles Orks rolled 1s across the board.

Having played a 1.5K game today against them with my Sisters and scratching out a win I've pretty much confirmed my previous opinion: they are VERY durable (more so when my opponent won't stop rolling RP saves in large numbers) but they really need to focus fire to effectively kill things. More than once I saw 2-3 units targeting a single unit or vehicle to take care of it. Even when the rolls were above average it just wasn't enough to be 100% effective.

They have a lot of durability and that was more of a problem for me than their ability to actually wound me as they took fewer wounds in return than saves.

Basically it was kind of like playing against an army like Blood Angels where everything had a constant FnP save.

I'm reevaluating some parts of my list to solve the issue I found where my army just wasn't quite handling it effectively.

Also I killed a unit of Wraiths in the game (1 dead Wraith from Exorcist shooting before they got RP since I went first, 2 died in melee locked with a Battle Conclave (3 Crusaders, 4 DCA and an Arco-Flagellant) with Jacobus and a Priest) and it took an Overlord on a Command Barge (Warscythe, Phase Shifter, Tesla Cannon) to finally break the unit.

So yeah, not really fearing Necrons, just thinking that I need to look at playing the game a touch differently to beat them by a larger margin (also maybe getting my dice blessed so I don't waste my second turn shooting by not hitting or wounding anything).

Hollismason wrote:
I'm pretty sure GWs design proccess is a series of D6 flow charts seriously they love random gak. This is basically GWs design Process

1- Increase Cost of Unit
2-5 Cost Remain the same but roll twice on special abilities
6 Reduce cost by half Reroll

Abilities
1- Fear
2-3 Ability that has no use
3-5 Ability that has situational use
6- Ability that actually matches unit

The Necron codex rolled really well on it's create a codex chart and we got a lot of rerolls, meanwhiles Orks rolled 1s across the board.

Yeah, I played against an Ork friend last night, and he got a lucky shot against my Ghost Ark and exploded it. That was it. Stormboyz charged 3 Tomb Blades, and I won combat. A ton of Nobz with Klaws and a Warboss charged my warriors with an overlord. He killed 2 warriors. I ended up tabling him before the end of turn 5. I feel bad for Orks, honestly. Their book isn't bad, but they just seem to not have as good stuff as they should.

Holy crap, stormboyz losing to tomb blades and nobz + warboss losing to warriors sounds terrifying - orks charging, no less. What sort of numbers were you talking? If, like, 5 stormboyz charged 5 TB, I could see it, but any sort of decently sized squad should have been good enough.

I mean, I'm sitting here concerned about wraiths and flayed ones, but if nobz are losing to warriors.......that's either outrageously bad luck, mismatched/poorly equipped nobz, or a really bad time to be orks.

But, it's kind of been a bad time to be orks since June 2014, so I'm kind of afraid of what the answer will be.

Do you recall the approx. numbers and wargear of the orks and their targets? Just curious. Because I'd REALLY like to know under what circumstances nobs would lose to necron warriors in CC.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Holy crap, stormboyz losing to tomb blades and nobz + warboss losing to warriors sounds terrifying - orks charging, no less. What sort of numbers were you talking? If, like, 5 stormboyz charged 5 TB, I could see it, but any sort of decently sized squad should have been good enough.

I mean, I'm sitting here concerned about wraiths and flayed ones, but if nobz are losing to warriors.......that's either outrageously bad luck, mismatched/poorly equipped nobz, or a really bad time to be orks.

But, it's kind of been a bad time to be orks since June 2014, so I'm kind of afraid of what the answer will be.

Do you recall the approx. numbers and wargear of the orks and their targets? Just curious.

It was about 8-9 Stormboyz that charged 3 Tomb Blades. They managed to kill one that turn of combat, and the tomb blades killed one, so it was a draw. Next combat phase, since they didn't charge, they did nothing to the Blades, and proceeded to lose combat.

Then, the Warboss's unit. He had Headwoppa's Killchoppa, a couple Nobz (I think there was like, 9 total nobz) had just CC weapons and pistols, and about 5 nobz had Power Klaws. I had about 15 or so warriors, a Cryptek, and an Overlord with nothing but a Voidblade. Warboss did a wound in the challenge, and I did none. But, between all of his wounds dealt to my warriors, I had a 4+ RP (reduced to 5+ for Klaws because of ID, but the cryptek kept it at a 4+), and I popped my Res Orb. I lost a total of 2 warriors, then dealt I believe two wounds back. I lost combat by 1, passed my leadership. Next two phases, they did even less damage, and the next phase after that, my Lychguard and my Warlord (Voidreaper, MSS, Phase shifter, ext) charged in and killed probably 4+ nobz on their own. It was butal.

I can see how that happened (especially with the stormboyz), and burning a rez orb to absorb the nob charge was a good play, but......damn.

Warriors shrugging of a full unit of charging nobz like that is pretty terrifying.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I can see how that happened (especially with the stormboyz), and burning a rez orb to absorb the nob charge was a good play, but......damn.

Warriors shrugging of a full unit of charging nobz like that is pretty terrifying.

Well yeah, but that way I look at it is this. People complain that Necrons shrug off charging units (I had a single warrior tank 12 AP3 wounds from Bloodcrushers in my first game), but think about it. Necrons don't have any defense against being Over run. They're not Stubborn, their Init 2, ext. So, absorbing a charge with a one-time use item isn't that obnoxious, in the grand scheme of things. Otherwise, I would've lost Imotekh and my Royal court with ease.

Overrunning Necrons works great. Celestine nuked two units in two turns that way by herself. If the Seraphim were alive to make combat it would have probably been even faster.

The thing is putting the right units in the right places to deal with appropriate threats.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Overrunning Necrons works great. Celestine nuked two units in two turns that way by herself. If the Seraphim were alive to make combat it would have probably been even faster.

The thing is putting the right units in the right places to deal with appropriate threats.

I'm just glad we have defenses against it now. Bubbles of rerolling morale checks, Res Orbs, better RP, ext. Makes me happy.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Overrunning Necrons works great. Celestine nuked two units in two turns that way by herself. If the Seraphim were alive to make combat it would have probably been even faster.

The thing is putting the right units in the right places to deal with appropriate threats.

I'm just glad we have defenses against it now. Bubbles of rerolling morale checks, Res Orbs, better RP, ext. Makes me happy.

Oh no, I'm talking about this happening yesterday. Celestine killed a couple of models, dropped the LD, and the unit broke. At I7 she can't roll low enough to not catch them and she wiped 2 units.

That game sounded great.
It looks like you have to play really tactical and win on VP's to beat Necrons.
Just rushing in and wiping them out does not seem to be a viable "tactic" any more.

Getting 'Purge the Alien' against us would be a terrible mission though

 krodarklorr wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Yeah, dunno why that gained Primary Weapon, and the monolith is still meh.

So it can use its Gauss Flayers.
And because Relentless affects Ordnance, but not Primary Weapon.

What does Relentless affecting Ordnance have to do with anything?

Because if it had Ordnance, one could argue that it counts as stationary and thus could move and use it's high power-profile.
Now whenever such a thread arises we can simply point out that Primary Weapon isn't affected by Relentless and be done with it

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Overrunning Necrons works great. Celestine nuked two units in two turns that way by herself. If the Seraphim were alive to make combat it would have probably been even faster.

The thing is putting the right units in the right places to deal with appropriate threats.

I'm just glad we have defenses against it now. Bubbles of rerolling morale checks, Res Orbs, better RP, ext. Makes me happy.

Oh no, I'm talking about this happening yesterday. Celestine killed a couple of models, dropped the LD, and the unit broke. At I7 she can't roll low enough to not catch them and she wiped 2 units.

Sounds about right. Only time I've lost a unit now to Sweeping (I've played 2 games only, and both against assaulting armies) was a group of Immortals that got charged by a Skull Cannon, and couldn't hurt it. Other than that, it would appear getting swept is a distant memory for me.

Kangodo wrote:
That game sounded great.
It looks like you have to play really tactical and win on VP's to beat Necrons.
Just rushing in and wiping them out does not seem to be a viable "tactic" any more.

Getting 'Purge the Alien' against us would be a terrible mission though

Playing tactically helps in general but your dice not turning traitor on you (my second turn's shooting was 100% useless and the scatter die I loaned my opponent twice roll hits both times despite his really high scatter rolls with the Blast/Lance on his Doom Scythe) helps a lot too. When I was rolling at least average I did fine, but when my dice stopped my whole army would grind to a halt.

Not much I can do fix that without something like a handful of Divination Inquisitors or something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Overrunning Necrons works great. Celestine nuked two units in two turns that way by herself. If the Seraphim were alive to make combat it would have probably been even faster.

The thing is putting the right units in the right places to deal with appropriate threats.

I'm just glad we have defenses against it now. Bubbles of rerolling morale checks, Res Orbs, better RP, ext. Makes me happy.

Oh no, I'm talking about this happening yesterday. Celestine killed a couple of models, dropped the LD, and the unit broke. At I7 she can't roll low enough to not catch them and she wiped 2 units.

Sounds about right. Only time I've lost a unit now to Sweeping (I've played 2 games only, and both against assaulting armies) was a group of Immortals that got charged by a Skull Cannon, and couldn't hurt it. Other than that, it would appear getting swept is a distant memory for me.

In theory they can hurt Celestine (hit on 4s, wound on 3s) but they only did 1 wound to her between the 2 sets of Overwatch and collectively 4 rounds of combat.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

In theory they can hurt Celestine (hit on 4s, wound on 3s) but they only did 1 wound to her between the 2 sets of Overwatch and collectively 4 rounds of combat.

Did he have an Overlord in either squad? I'm pretty sure he would've done well, especially if he's kitted for CC.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

In theory they can hurt Celestine (hit on 4s, wound on 3s) but they only did 1 wound to her between the 2 sets of Overwatch and collectively 4 rounds of combat.

Did he have an Overlord in either squad? I'm pretty sure he would've done well, especially if he's kitted for CC.

His Overlord was on a CCB who was on the other side of the board killing my Battle Conclave (over 3 combats to break them) and then went after my unit on my objective. It was seriously the most effective thing in his army close combat wise, even more so than the Wraiths (D6 Impact hits when he keeps rolling high don't help either).

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

In theory they can hurt Celestine (hit on 4s, wound on 3s) but they only did 1 wound to her between the 2 sets of Overwatch and collectively 4 rounds of combat.

Did he have an Overlord in either squad? I'm pretty sure he would've done well, especially if he's kitted for CC.

His Overlord was on a CCB who was on the other side of the board killing my Battle Conclave (over 3 combats to break them) and then went after my unit on my objective. It was seriously the most effective thing in his army close combat wise, even more so than the Wraiths (D6 Impact hits when he keeps rolling high don't help either).

Well, that was his first mistake in my opinion. The command barge really isn't usable as a killing machine like it used to be. It's more of a support option, especially since and Overlord has some decent shooting skills now.

Can't you just run a ton of trukks and beat Decurion Necrons on objectives every damn time as a hard counter?

col_impact wrote:
Can't you just run a ton of trukks and beat Decurion Necrons on objectives every damn time as a hard counter?

I don't really think that would be that effective. >.>

 krodarklorr wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Can't you just run a ton of trukks and beat Decurion Necrons on objectives every damn time as a hard counter?

I don't really think that would be that effective. >.>

MSU and boatloads of ObjSec in the form of cheap Trukks means the Necron player has to output a lot of damage to clean house.

The way to best fight the Decurion Crons is to maximize ObjSec.

Necron resiliency went up a ton but its damage output? Not so much.

col_impact wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Can't you just run a ton of trukks and beat Decurion Necrons on objectives every damn time as a hard counter?

I don't really think that would be that effective. >.>

MSU and boatloads of ObjSec in the form of cheap Trukks means the Necron player has to output a lot of damage to clean house.

Necron resiliency went up a ton but its damage output? Not so much.

I mean, Necrons can easily dispatch Trukks, with pretty much anything we have.

 krodarklorr wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Can't you just run a ton of trukks and beat Decurion Necrons on objectives every damn time as a hard counter?

I don't really think that would be that effective. >.>

MSU and boatloads of ObjSec in the form of cheap Trukks means the Necron player has to output a lot of damage to clean house.

Necron resiliency went up a ton but its damage output? Not so much.

I mean, Necrons can easily dispatch Trukks, with pretty much anything we have.

Not if they hang back out of range or in cover and jump on Objectives at end. Also its having a large number of them. Flood the ObjSec. MSU.

Same deal with Drop Pod MSU and Rhino MSU.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

In theory they can hurt Celestine (hit on 4s, wound on 3s) but they only did 1 wound to her between the 2 sets of Overwatch and collectively 4 rounds of combat.

Did he have an Overlord in either squad? I'm pretty sure he would've done well, especially if he's kitted for CC.

His Overlord was on a CCB who was on the other side of the board killing my Battle Conclave (over 3 combats to break them) and then went after my unit on my objective. It was seriously the most effective thing in his army close combat wise, even more so than the Wraiths (D6 Impact hits when he keeps rolling high don't help either).

Well, that was his first mistake in my opinion. The command barge really isn't usable as a killing machine like it used to be. It's more of a support option, especially since and Overlord has some decent shooting skills now.

The bargeLord has an achilles heel but if you protect that heel he is still beastly and crazy fast. Don't send him after Dreadknights!