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 krodarklorr wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

In theory they can hurt Celestine (hit on 4s, wound on 3s) but they only did 1 wound to her between the 2 sets of Overwatch and collectively 4 rounds of combat.

Did he have an Overlord in either squad? I'm pretty sure he would've done well, especially if he's kitted for CC.

His Overlord was on a CCB who was on the other side of the board killing my Battle Conclave (over 3 combats to break them) and then went after my unit on my objective. It was seriously the most effective thing in his army close combat wise, even more so than the Wraiths (D6 Impact hits when he keeps rolling high don't help either).

Well, that was his first mistake in my opinion. The command barge really isn't usable as a killing machine like it used to be. It's more of a support option, especially since and Overlord has some decent shooting skills now.

It gives the Lord mobility and with a Phase Shifter and Warscythe it was more than good enough to do the job. Plus it killed my unit that managed to kill his Wraiths while taking 0 wounds over 4 combats with 2 Wraiths and a stack of Scarabs.

...no more Mindschake Scarab BS? Imma happy man...and no more 3+ invuln....somebody stop me im going to sing on the rooftop

Last week I had a bloodthirsrer get locked up by 5 tomb blades for 3 turns till some flayed ones came in for the rescue.

Today 2 Nurgle Daemon Princes with baleswords killed 1 of 10man unit of warriors on the charge. Damn that 4+ rerole 1 Rp. It may not be broken but it' can seem pretty unfun. I'm getting a little shy about trying to cc them with MC's.

oftenwrong wrote:
Last week I had a bloodthirsrer get locked up by 5 tomb blades for 3 turns till some flayed ones came in for the rescue.

Today 2 Nurgle Daemon Princes with baleswords killed 1 of 10man unit of warriors on the charge. Damn that 4+ rerole 1 Rp. It may not be broken but it' can seem pretty unfun. I'm getting a little shy about trying to cc them with MC's.

ID is your friend vs Necrons. ID and AP (and a Bloodthirster should be APing those bikes meaning all they would get is the RP).

Yeah, I would have thought that too but crons can be buffed to get a 4+RP even when taking a ID hits.

So 2 Nurgle Daemon are going to kill something like 3 warriors and a thirster is going to kill maybe 2 blades?

oftenwrong wrote:
Yeah, I would have thought that too but crons can be buffed to get a 4+RP even when taking a ID hits.

So 2 Nurgle Daemon are going to kill something like 3 warriors and a thirster is going to kill maybe 2 blades?

Them taking a 4+ save is better than a 4+/4+ or a 3+/4+. And they can be buffed, but unless they put a Cryptek in each unit and took the Decurion (which means they had to take a Royal Court) they won't get better than a 5+ RP.

 Commissar41.0 wrote:
...no more Mindschake Scarab BS? Imma happy man...and no more 3+ invuln....somebody stop me im going to sing on the rooftop

Sing all you want. Yet, why is no one complaining about 245 pt space marines with a 2+/3++ 4 wounds that are better in CC? Unless, of course, you play space marines. Right, forgot which game we're playing here.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Commissar41.0 wrote:
...no more Mindschake Scarab BS? Imma happy man...and no more 3+ invuln....somebody stop me im going to sing on the rooftop

Sing all you want. Yet, why is no one complaining about 245 pt space marines with a 2+/3++ 4 wounds that are better in CC? Unless, of course, you play space marines. Right, forgot which game we're playing here.

Well, some of us do complain about the insane proliferation of extremely powerful invul saves.

That said, said 245pt Space Marines weren't able to play allocation gimmicks with an AV13 shielded skimmer and/or have a relatively cheap wargear item which would, more often than not, even against the highest Ld possible in the game, result in an enemy model (particularly in a challenge) attacking its own side or doing nothing.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Commissar41.0 wrote:
...no more Mindschake Scarab BS? Imma happy man...and no more 3+ invuln....somebody stop me im going to sing on the rooftop

Sing all you want. Yet, why is no one complaining about 245 pt space marines with a 2+/3++ 4 wounds that are better in CC? Unless, of course, you play space marines. Right, forgot which game we're playing here.

Well, some of us do complain about the insane proliferation of extremely powerful invul saves.

That said, said 245pt Space Marines weren't able to play allocation gimmicks with an AV13 shielded skimmer and/or have a relatively cheap wargear item which would, more often than not, even against the highest Ld possible in the game, result in an enemy model (particularly in a challenge) attacking its own side or doing nothing.

He also has no secondary save (FNP/RP) unless Iron Hands, and statistically, secondary saves make enormous differences in unit survivability. He's also in an army with Tactical marines, which are an expensive, useless unit outperformed by everything in all roles, whereas Necrons currently don't have bad units, nevermind ones they *have* to take.

Regardless, I do agree the proliferation of invulns, both high and low is irritating, but is a naturally byproduct in the creep of AP3/2/1 weapons in the game. In 5th, Guard mechvets toting plasma/melta by the threes was considered kind of the epitome of low AP spam, but now you've got things like Eldar where the worst AP in their entire army is 3! (roll dependent, mind you) and everyone but Orks can cram in enormous volumes of low AP firepower; rather than reign in the number of toys, GW has opted to hand out invulns, and re-rollable invulns to counteract that. One of the things that makes Newnewcrons so durable is their army-wide secondary saves aren't affected by the massive AP creep, especially as the army has good access to invulns.

The old necron codex was a horribly atrociously internally balanced codex that was effective because of silly gimmic builds that have little to do with the necron fluff and were partly the result of edition changes.

The Decurion is awesome because it allows a "fluffy" (I'm almost tempted to say "realistic") army to be viable, and I hope they do something similar with all the other factions so we get away from endless, tedious processions of flying hive tyrants with twin-liked devourers and riptides upon riptides.

So, are Decurion Necrons as broken as they seem? Is it possible to beat them on objectives in Maelstrom/Eternal War?

So far based on having read through the Codex and one game vs them (loose on wipe) my early opinion is that
a) Decurion thiny is OP/Broken
b) Wraiths are OP

I don't see how you beat them on point for point killing without using the cheesiest OP combos out there? In friendly games it sure does not seem possible, which means it's no fun playing either with or against them. Unless I am wrong and you can win on objectives. Usually however, if you can't kill anything you are still going to loose.

The old Codex was already strong, this new one takes them to at least Eldar levels IMHO.

Alcibiades wrote:
The old necron codex was a horribly atrociously internally balanced codex that was effective because of silly gimmic builds that have little to do with the necron fluff and were partly the result of edition changes.

The Decurion is awesome because it allows a "fluffy" (I'm almost tempted to say "realistic") army to be viable, and I hope they do something similar with all the other factions so we get away from endless, tedious processions of flying hive tyrants with twin-liked devourers and riptides upon riptides.

This sounds good, only problem is that it's going to take 3 years to replace all other Codexes and in the mean time everyone else will loose (out).

 westiebestie wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
The old necron codex was a horribly atrociously internally balanced codex that was effective because of silly gimmic builds that have little to do with the necron fluff and were partly the result of edition changes.

The Decurion is awesome because it allows a "fluffy" (I'm almost tempted to say "realistic") army to be viable, and I hope they do something similar with all the other factions so we get away from endless, tedious processions of flying hive tyrants with twin-liked devourers and riptides upon riptides.

This sounds good, only problem is that it's going to take 3 years to replace all other Codexes and in the mean time everyone else will loose (out).

It could be done with dataslate formations I think. In fact the Decurion is kind of a dataslate within the codex (as is realspace raiders).

 westiebestie wrote:
So, are Decurion Necrons as broken as they seem?

No

Is it possible to beat them on objectives in Maelstrom/Eternal War?

Yes. Decurion lacks ObSec, which will be it's downfall.

So far based on having read through the Codex and one game vs them (loose on wipe) my early opinion is that
a) Decurion thiny is OP/Broken
b) Wraiths are OP

So after a single game, against a new codex, you never played against before, that you were obviuosly unprepared for, you lost, and therefore it must obviously be OP ?

I don't see how you beat them on point for point killing without using the cheesiest OP combos out there?

Necrons lost killing power for increased survivbility. People used to defeat them with the same armies and tactics that work against Space Marines, that approach no longer works. S and AP are not as important as Volume Of Fire. Instead of trying to deny them saves, you have to force them to make lots of saves.

In friendly games it sure does not seem possible, which means it's no fun playing either with or against them. Unless I am wrong and you can win on objectives. Usually however, if you can't kill anything you are still going to loose.

Since the Decurion lacks ObSec, you can steal and deny them objectives with CAD troops. You can still can still kill, it just takes twice as many shots as it used to.

The old Codex was already strong, this new one takes them to at least Eldar levels IMHO.

Give it a month, and people will figure out how to deal with them, and adjust their playstyle accordingly.

Our necron players have very quickly figured out that after you kill the 3 or mabye 4 things with obsec its game over. That is literally all you have to do to faceroll to victory with necrons now, because nobody plays them without the 4+.

In a month, it wont have died down. In a month, you will get the same looks the taudar player got in 6th.

Thus far, a lack of Objective Securedd has indeed been why the Necrons arent beating me yet. That can bwe overcome by throwing a Combined Arms Detachment in just for that purpose though. I think a more balanced army is the one that's going to have success based on my few games thus far.

Nothing is unbeatable. The way to beat necrons is to have a few anti tank weapons for barges and then volume of fire for everything else. Force the saves. They can't win them all. I took double scatter laser war walkers and ate squads of warriors and immortals from a distance.

 westiebestie wrote:
So, are Decurion Necrons as broken as they seem? Is it possible to beat them on objectives in Maelstrom/Eternal War?

So far based on having read through the Codex and one game vs them (loose on wipe) my early opinion is that
a) Decurion thiny is OP/Broken
b) Wraiths are OP

I don't see how you beat them on point for point killing without using the cheesiest OP combos out there? In friendly games it sure does not seem possible, which means it's no fun playing either with or against them. Unless I am wrong and you can win on objectives. Usually however, if you can't kill anything you are still going to loose.

The old Codex was already strong, this new one takes them to at least Eldar levels IMHO.

Alcibiades wrote:
The old necron codex was a horribly atrociously internally balanced codex that was effective because of silly gimmic builds that have little to do with the necron fluff and were partly the result of edition changes.

The Decurion is awesome because it allows a "fluffy" (I'm almost tempted to say "realistic") army to be viable, and I hope they do something similar with all the other factions so we get away from endless, tedious processions of flying hive tyrants with twin-liked devourers and riptides upon riptides.

This sounds good, only problem is that it's going to take 3 years to replace all other Codexes and in the mean time everyone else will loose (out).

The Decurion is beatable. I've done it with Sisters. And if I can do it with my monobuild codex anyone can do it if they play smart enough.

What I want to see is how hard a Necron Apocalypse sized army would be to defeat. With so many new formations that they got in their book and the Infinite Phalanx giving them even better reanimation protocols. There is just nobody around here who has enough necrons to match my Eldar points :(

 adamsouza wrote:
Give it a month, and people will figure out how to deal with them, and adjust their playstyle accordingly.

Honestly, we only need to wait one more week. After the Las Vegas Open this coming weekend, we should have a pretty good idea about just what the Necrons are capable of.

Alcibiades wrote:
The old necron codex was a horribly atrociously internally balanced codex that was effective because of silly gimmic builds that have little to do with the necron fluff and were partly the result of edition changes.

The Decurion is awesome because it allows a "fluffy" (I'm almost tempted to say "realistic") army to be viable.

Quoted for true, good sir.

 adamsouza wrote:

 westiebestie wrote:
So, are Decurion Necrons as broken as they seem?

No

Is it possible to beat them on objectives in Maelstrom/Eternal War?

Yes. Decurion lacks ObSec, which will be it's downfall.

People seem to make a lot out of ObSec...yet this only matters if an objective is in fact contested in the first place with one of your own ObSec units. Since 7E's been out, I think I've seen this actually kick in for three whole objectves and only swing a game once...against another army with ObSec.

It's certainly not going to be any sort of "downfall" for them. Is it nice? Sure. Does it in any way match the utility and army-wide versatility of the Decurion bonuses? Absolutely not, doesn't even come close.

So after a single game, against a new codex, you never played against before, that you were obviuosly unprepared for, you lost, and therefore it must obviously be OP ?

Lets not kid ourselves here, there are some things that you can largely just look at and tell they're overdone. Same thing with say, 130pt IG Vendettas in 5E. From the games I've seen/played so far, the first impressions appear to be largely accurate, these things are pretty insanely hard to stop.

 Xerics wrote:
Nothing is unbeatable. The way to beat necrons is to have a few anti tank weapons for barges and then volume of fire for everything else. Force the saves. They can't win them all. I took double scatter laser war walkers and ate squads of warriors and immortals from a distance.

The only downside, at least from my experience so far in two games, is that even weight of fire, and low AP attacks, Necrons are still hard to kill. Bloodcrushers dealing 19 AP3 wounds in CC, I lost 2 wounds. 9 Nobz and a Warboss charging in, most of them with Power Klawz, I lost 2 wounds.

I'm even less afraid of a Vehicle, such as War Walkers.

 Vaktathi wrote:
People seem to make a lot out of ObSec...yet this only matters if an objective is in fact contested in the first place with one of your own ObSec units.

Just because It may be a meta thing that people don't play up in your local meta, doesn't mean it's not valuable.

In my personal gaming experience, objectives get contested almost every game. I've won games by contesting my enemies objectives, while holding my own. Obsec is a valuable tool for that.

There was one game where a central objective was held for 5 rounds by a lone Space Marine scout with Obsec, while my Necron army fruitlessly tried to route him out of cover and take control of it.

 adamsouza wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
People seem to make a lot out of ObSec...yet this only matters if an objective is in fact contested in the first place with one of your own ObSec units.

Just because It may be a meta thing that people don't play up in your local meta, doesn't mean it's not valuable.

In my personal gaming experience, objectives get contested almost every game. I've won games by contesting my enemies objectives, while holding my own. Obsec is a valuable tool for that.

There was one game where a central objective was held for 5 rounds by a lone Space Marine scout with Obsec, while my Necron army fruitlessly tried to route him out of cover and take control of it.

Tomb Blades!!!!

 krodarklorr wrote:
Tomb Blades!!!!

I was actually trying to kill him with a Monolith, and failed terribly. Then the Monolith got destroyed, blocking the main entrance, and any real line of sight, to the ruins he was hiding in.

On the other side of the table I had a second Monolith contest an objective that was previsouly held by his HQ.

 adamsouza wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Tomb Blades!!!!

I was actually trying to kill him with a Monolith, and failed terribly. Then the Monolith got destroyed, blocking the main entrance, and any real line of sight, to the ruins he was hiding in.

On the other side of the table I had a second Monolith contest an objective that was previsouly held by his HQ.

Well, I commend you for using 2 Monoliths =P

To be honest, I started fielding Monoliths out of a sense of novelty. They have proven to have been worth their points, as my opponents will throw EVERY heavy weapon they can at them, until they are destroyed. This frees up the rest of my army to move about, mostly, unmolested until they do.

I actually just ordered an Obelisk, earlier this week, to go with the pair of Monoliths, for added shock and awe value in big games.

 adamsouza wrote:
To be honest, I started fielding Monoliths out of a sense of novelty. They have proven to have been worth their points, as my opponents will throw EVERY heavy weapon they can at them, until they are destroyed. This frees up the rest of my army to move about, mostly, unmolested until they do.

I actually just ordered an Obelisk, earlier this week, to go with the pair of Monoliths, for added shock and awe value in big games.

Oh yeah, the Obelisk is pretty good now, and the formation is rather useful. It lessened the sting of how "bad" monoliths are when you don't think of them as weapon platforms, but more-so as a transportation method for your entire army, which in fluff is really what they are.

 adamsouza wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
People seem to make a lot out of ObSec...yet this only matters if an objective is in fact contested in the first place with one of your own ObSec units.

Just because It may be a meta thing that people don't play up in your local meta, doesn't mean it's not valuable.

Not saying it doesn't have value, but it's far from a "downfall", and is highly situational. It only matters if objectives are being contested in the first place, and if either unit would even have the ability to get ObSec in a CAD. If you're contesting an objective with a Leman Russ to your opponent's Flayed One's, well, ObSec isn't going to do much for either party in that instance.

In my personal gaming experience, objectives get contested almost every game. I've won games by contesting my enemies objectives, while holding my own. Obsec is a valuable tool for that.

Absolutely objectives get contested, but for ObSec to do any good it has to specifically be a Troops unit (typically), and if we're talking anything but Troops units involved on the objective, then it's irrelevant.

Is it nice? yes. Is it a critical capability that's going to be a glaring vulnerability? No. Are the Decurion Detachment capabilities a lot more useful? Yes.

There was one game where a central objective was held for 5 rounds by a lone Space Marine scout with Obsec, while my Necron army fruitlessly tried to route him out of cover and take control of it.

That doesn't really sound like a situation where ObSec saved the day, as opposed to him just not dying. If you didn't get anything in there to contest it, he'd have held it either way if for some reason you just couldn't shoot at him, ObSec or no, so ObSec would be rather irrelevant.

If you got something in there to contest it and made ObSec kick in...what did you send in that couldn't kill a single marine in 5 rounds?

Objective Secured is minimized in power gamers minds because they like what the more elite units can do. It has everything to do with the pre-occupation certain competitive players have with "kill Ratios" and the like and nothing to do with logic because heres an inescapable reality, one that no amount of minimizing can delete:

If I keep a mobile unit off the board to start and alive to the end that is Objective Secured, then I only ever have to tie the rest of the objectives...which I can do later also.

So a General who understands the timing of his game better than he does kill ratios will constantly confound the elite players who are trying to out-muscle you.