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 Jancoran wrote:
Objective Secured is minimized in power gamers minds because they like what the more elite units can do. It has everything to do with the pre-occupation certain competitive players have with "kill Ratios" and the like and nothing to do with logic because heres an inescapable reality, one that no amount of minimizing can delete:

If I keep a mobile unit off the board to start and alive to the end that is Objective Secured, then I only ever have to tie the rest of the objectives...which I can do later also.

So a General who understands the timing of his game better than he does kill ratios will constantly confound the elite players who are trying to out-muscle you.

Again, nobody is denying ObSec can have it's uses, but what you describe is relatively easy to counter with a variety of methods, and is highly variable in effectiveness, particularly with Random Game Length (and is precisely why RGL exists) and the way Maelstrom Missions only require you to hold to the end of your own turn. The game generally does a good job of making this tactic more a situational event than an opening plan. Can it work? Sure. Will it work against someone who's seen it before? Often no.

ObSec also isn't always necessarily needed for this to work either, especially if you only need to contest rather than hold.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Objective Secured is minimized in power gamers minds because they like what the more elite units can do. It has everything to do with the pre-occupation certain competitive players have with "kill Ratios" and the like and nothing to do with logic because heres an inescapable reality, one that no amount of minimizing can delete:

If I keep a mobile unit off the board to start and alive to the end that is Objective Secured, then I only ever have to tie the rest of the objectives...which I can do later also.

So a General who understands the timing of his game better than he does kill ratios will constantly confound the elite players who are trying to out-muscle you.

Again, nobody is denying ObSec can have it's uses, but what you describe is relatively easy to counter with a variety of methods, and is highly variable in effectiveness, particularly with Random Game Length (and is precisely why RGL exists) and the way Maelstrom Missions only require you to hold to the end of your own turn. The game generally does a good job of making this tactic more a situational event than an opening plan. Can it work? Sure. Will it work against someone who's seen it before? Often no.

ObSec also isn't always necessarily needed for this to work either, especially if you only need to contest rather than hold.

There are methods of denying objSec which center around area-wise denying access to the objective.

Parking an obelisk or monolith or ghost ark or scarab swarm or warrior blob on top of an objective such that the opponents objsec can't get to the objective at end of game.

There aren't that many OS units which are super durable. If they start giving decurion players problems, they will just get targeted sooner. The decurions survivability does allow it to take extra punishment while it focuses on blowing away troops.

Hey, been playing necrons for about 3-4 years now. Hardcore Necron fanboy most likely always will be and I am the only person at my store that plays them. I have gotten many glares and angered looks even so far as having one of my friends cuss me out about how utterly broken my codex has been in the past, but i digress. Back in 5th-6th edition i scarcely lost, but I did not even spam cheesy tactics, i never fielded more then one night scythe or annihilation barge per game (Because i lacked the models and wanted to simply play fluffy armies) that being said I still rarely ever lost.

When 7th edition was announced i instantly put down 200 bucks got the data cards and special edition. While I waited though i hungrily trolled through rumor forums and threads desperately seeking any new leaks for rules that i might start developing new strategies early, but my biggest fear at the time is that my army would be nerfed to unplayable levels, but i simply smiled and told myself even if they were made useless they would still be my golden army. Then I began to read through the book, annihilation barge increases, tesla nerf, point hike on night scythe, and when i first read reanimation protocol i was devastated in my mind they had taken such a mainstream nerf at first, now being affected by removed from play, instant death, and destroyer D. No more 2 up armor saves or 3 up invulnerable saves on my overlord.

Then I saw the codex for what it was it did change and as i play tested it (going through 5 matches since its release) my worst fears actually came to life. I started to feel like they made my army even stronger! I have been desperately looking for forums for other peoples opinions. So perhaps some of my experiences will help this out. For starters 2 weeks ago i fought some nids and marveled at my 10 lychguard with 1 overlord being deepstruck behind enemy lines. I boldly held my ground when the swarm lord charged me confident my new CC masters could defeat, combat had lasted a stunning 4 rounds before a victor was called. I had bested the swarm lord 3 times only causing him a total of 4 wounds (he also regained 2 from IWND) getting one lucky round off he downed 3 lychguard. my eyes quickly turned to horror as i now had to make a leadership test of 5 (negative 2 to leadership due to tyranidness...) he over ran me and did some had effectively finished off a very expensive unit. My other encounter of note was trying the canoptek harvest formation, fighting gray knights i could not believe how well things were working with 3++ and a 4 up RP on my wraiths. He had brought 2 dreadknights though and insta gibbed my spyders after teleporting in. Gauss was useful as always but couldn't really pack the punch I needed to bring him down.

So my thoughts are yes Necrons do have incredibly high survivability, but MC's are still incredibly hard to kill. The one group i play with screams gauss is OP at me daily because i can glance or wound anything on 6's (which i don't deny is good) but unless its toughness 8 or higher for creatures its roughly the same as a bolter (in terms of creatures). So does anyone else think that Gauss is broken as a whole? Secondly CC we are better at it for sure, but many units still lack fearless and we can be over run pretty easily in combat. However we now always reanimate on a 5+ no matter what unless its instant death, I do not play in tournaments, period being a strictly casual player I looked to have fun with people so given the new codex should i field a different army? Or would anyone agree that the new codex is balanced? Our codex still lacks a good sum of low AP weapons and we still lack psychic powers, thoughts?

If you didn't spam ABs before then unless you had MSS all over the place the Necrons only got better. RP got a big effective buff, NS point increase can easily be made up by the decreases elsewhere. There are far more viable units in the codex now. Most of the problems with offence people are having is the lack of AB spam, because nothing else really lost offensive power.

The codex is a lot more fun and internally balanced now in my experience.

Sabor wrote:
Hey, been playing necrons for about 3-4 years now. Hardcore Necron fanboy most likely always will be and I am the only person at my store that plays them. I have gotten many glares and angered looks even so far as having one of my friends cuss me out about how utterly broken my codex has been in the past, but i digress. Back in 5th-6th edition i scarcely lost, but I did not even spam cheesy tactics, i never fielded more then one night scythe or annihilation barge per game (Because i lacked the models and wanted to simply play fluffy armies) that being said I still rarely ever lost.

When 7th edition was announced i instantly put down 200 bucks got the data cards and special edition. While I waited though i hungrily trolled through rumor forums and threads desperately seeking any new leaks for rules that i might start developing new strategies early, but my biggest fear at the time is that my army would be nerfed to unplayable levels, but i simply smiled and told myself even if they were made useless they would still be my golden army. Then I began to read through the book, annihilation barge increases, tesla nerf, point hike on night scythe, and when i first read reanimation protocol i was devastated in my mind they had taken such a mainstream nerf at first, now being affected by removed from play, instant death, and destroyer D. No more 2 up armor saves or 3 up invulnerable saves on my overlord.

Then I saw the codex for what it was it did change and as i play tested it (going through 5 matches since its release) my worst fears actually came to life. I started to feel like they made my army even stronger! I have been desperately looking for forums for other peoples opinions. So perhaps some of my experiences will help this out. For starters 2 weeks ago i fought some nids and marveled at my 10 lychguard with 1 overlord being deepstruck behind enemy lines. I boldly held my ground when the swarm lord charged me confident my new CC masters could defeat, combat had lasted a stunning 4 rounds before a victor was called. I had bested the swarm lord 3 times only causing him a total of 4 wounds (he also regained 2 from IWND) getting one lucky round off he downed 3 lychguard. my eyes quickly turned to horror as i now had to make a leadership test of 5 (negative 2 to leadership due to tyranidness...) he over ran me and did some had effectively finished off a very expensive unit. My other encounter of note was trying the canoptek harvest formation, fighting gray knights i could not believe how well things were working with 3++ and a 4 up RP on my wraiths. He had brought 2 dreadknights though and insta gibbed my spyders after teleporting in. Gauss was useful as always but couldn't really pack the punch I needed to bring him down.

So my thoughts are yes Necrons do have incredibly high survivability, but MC's are still incredibly hard to kill. The one group i play with screams gauss is OP at me daily because i can glance or wound anything on 6's (which i don't deny is good) but unless its toughness 8 or higher for creatures its roughly the same as a bolter (in terms of creatures). So does anyone else think that Gauss is broken as a whole? Secondly CC we are better at it for sure, but many units still lack fearless and we can be over run pretty easily in combat. However we now always reanimate on a 5+ no matter what unless its instant death, I do not play in tournaments, period being a strictly casual player I looked to have fun with people so given the new codex should i field a different army? Or would anyone agree that the new codex is balanced? Our codex still lacks a good sum of low AP weapons and we still lack psychic powers, thoughts?

Try out decursion. It's a free +1 to RP upping it to 4+. The most gripe is actually about how unkillable crons are with decursion and rerolls to RP.

 adamsouza wrote:
Just because It may be a meta thing that people don't play up in your local meta, doesn't mean it's not valuable.

In my personal gaming experience, objectives get contested almost every game. I've won games by contesting my enemies objectives, while holding my own. Obsec is a valuable tool for that.

There was one game where a central objective was held for 5 rounds by a lone Space Marine scout with Obsec, while my Necron army fruitlessly tried to route him out of cover and take control of it.

We generally tend to play with quite a big punch in CC, that is why I always valued Objective Secured really low.
You either lost your unit or you killed the enemy, either way there will be only one unit alive after combat.

Necrons are now extremely durable and don't have a high punch.
That means you will probably have more situations where Objective Secured will become relevant.

Don't forget that anything which is a Troops selection in a CAD can have Obsec, from fast transports to Land Raiders to Leman Russ tanks depending on what list you are running.

I have found it eminently useful.

After running a few games I am convinced that the Necrons are the beast army right now. Started small with a several 750 point games and got up to 1250 points. I just started Necrons so all I have is two battle force boxes, a box of tomb blades, a night scythe, and a command barge. I actually was only able to run 1184 points but my opponents were running 1250. 1250 is the next tournament coming up.
(sorry about my lists, this is off the top of my head as I do not have access to them right now.)

Command barge 170
Warriors x 10 in Ghost Ark 235
Warriors x 10 in Ghost ark 235
Warriors x 10 130
Warriors x 10 130
Immortals x 10 in Night Scythe 215
Tomb Blades x 3 Shield Vanes, Nebuloscope, Particle Beamer 69

1184

My 750 list was minus a unit of 10 warriors, a ghost ark, 5 immortals and the scythe. (did not have it yet)

So my 750 list was only 662. I only lost the Immortals in all the 750 games I played. I always ran them towards an objective and they got overrun. That was my only unit I lost in probably four games. I always lost a tomb blade or two, but never the whole unit. I board wiped IG, Dark Eldar, Eldar and Chaos in those four games. The Eldar player and Dark Eldar player won the last two tournaments.

When we moved up to 1250 points it got much easier for me. I decided to not run my immortals separate and just charged with my whole army towards my opponent. I always went for the board wipe. Move flat out with my Ghost arks and send the scythe right at my enemy. Try to keep my lord close to reroll 1's or charge his HQ and the ghost arks behind to bring the warriors back. My other two units of ten warriors each would just foot slog up the field. Nobody made it to turn five. I have yet to face a CC army. My only concern is from someone who can tie me up in CC or massive horde armies. I played the same four people in 1250 games as I played in 750 and they all knew what I was bringing and tailored their armies to beat me, as the Necrons are seen as the best chance of winning the next tournament.

I quit playing Tau as most people do not want to play against them anymore. Two Riptides and three - six misslesides win almost every time. I guess I have a knack for picking cheese. I run Blood Angels, Tau and Necrons. I have been playing for twenty years and just like the fluff of the Blood Angels and Tau. I still run my destroyers as the old school necron warriors sitting on the hover bike looking things.

Ok, so Necrons pretty much wiping every other army off the board seems to be the story globally, not just here. Getting beaten by a new army before you figure out how to take them on is fine. However, getting wiped tells you that something is significantly stronger, and the amount of global wiping that seems to be going now seems to be a pretty good base to call them OP based on.

Sure, I can maybe tailor my army (and playing style) to have a better chance against them, but in a take all comers setting I don't think that's a fair comparison. How will I fair against all other armies by going MSU and spamming ObSec? Not too well I'll tell you. And I still will only have a very minor chance of winning/tieing against Decurion Crons.

If an army requires specific builds to even stand a fighting chance instead of being wiped when facing them then they are not very balanced.

I'll play some more until I speak further, but I think they are very OP.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Objective Secured is minimized in power gamers minds because they like what the more elite units can do. It has everything to do with the pre-occupation certain competitive players have with "kill Ratios" and the like and nothing to do with logic because heres an inescapable reality, one that no amount of minimizing can delete:

If I keep a mobile unit off the board to start and alive to the end that is Objective Secured, then I only ever have to tie the rest of the objectives...which I can do later also.

So a General who understands the timing of his game better than he does kill ratios will constantly confound the elite players who are trying to out-muscle you.

Again, nobody is denying ObSec can have it's uses, but what you describe is relatively easy to counter with a variety of methods, and is highly variable in effectiveness, particularly with Random Game Length (and is precisely why RGL exists) and the way Maelstrom Missions only require you to hold to the end of your own turn. The game generally does a good job of making this tactic more a situational event than an opening plan. Can it work? Sure. Will it work against someone who's seen it before? Often no.

ObSec also isn't always necessarily needed for this to work either, especially if you only need to contest rather than hold.

That was a lot of words that didn't say anything. "relatively easy" and "variety of methods"? "Situational"? All minimizing vague words. Suggesting that it will "only work" once on someone is also confusing to me, because the opponent simply has no choice. if they have no obsec, they wont be contesting anything in Maelstrom either if my army is fast enough.

Look I get it if you want to have more "cool toys" on the table, but I assure you I burn people over and over that don't respect the importance of Objective Secured units. They're busy trying to kill me all game and I'm busy stealing their lunch. Lol.

Not that this has much to do with the Necron Codex except for in this aspect: A Living Tomb can eject TWO units of Warriors out of its bowels when it arrives. Lots of Obsec warriors sling shotting from one side of the board to the entirely other side of the board is pretty awesome. As a segue, I ask you to consider how good that is when the enemy doesn't have any Obsec and the necrons have it anywhere they want it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Objective Secured is minimized in power gamers minds because they like what the more elite units can do. It has everything to do with the pre-occupation certain competitive players have with "kill Ratios" and the like and nothing to do with logic because heres an inescapable reality, one that no amount of minimizing can delete:

If I keep a mobile unit off the board to start and alive to the end that is Objective Secured, then I only ever have to tie the rest of the objectives...which I can do later also.

So a General who understands the timing of his game better than he does kill ratios will constantly confound the elite players who are trying to out-muscle you.

Again, nobody is denying ObSec can have it's uses, but what you describe is relatively easy to counter with a variety of methods, and is highly variable in effectiveness, particularly with Random Game Length (and is precisely why RGL exists) and the way Maelstrom Missions only require you to hold to the end of your own turn. The game generally does a good job of making this tactic more a situational event than an opening plan. Can it work? Sure. Will it work against someone who's seen it before? Often no.

ObSec also isn't always necessarily needed for this to work either, especially if you only need to contest rather than hold.

There are methods of denying objSec which center around area-wise denying access to the objective.

Parking an obelisk or monolith or ghost ark or scarab swarm or warrior blob on top of an objective such that the opponents objsec can't get to the objective at end of game.

We treat objectives as impassible. So there's that. Rolling a million ton tank over something and hiding it makes no sense whatsoever but sure. if you have enough of them and can keep them alive then you can try. But its a non sequitor becaus doing that "effectively" has no bearing on whether the unit was obsec or not.

 westiebestie wrote:
Ok, so Necrons pretty much wiping every other army off the board seems to be the story globally, not just here. Getting beaten by a new army before you figure out how to take them on is fine. However, getting wiped tells you that something is significantly stronger, and the amount of global wiping that seems to be going now seems to be a pretty good base to call them OP based on.

Sure, I can maybe tailor my army (and playing style) to have a better chance against them, but in a take all comers setting I don't think that's a fair comparison. How will I fair against all other armies by going MSU and spamming ObSec? Not too well I'll tell you. And I still will only have a very minor chance of winning/tieing against Decurion Crons.

If an army requires specific builds to even stand a fighting chance instead of being wiped when facing them then they are not very balanced.

I'll play some more until I speak further, but I think they are very OP.

My Space Marine player doesn't know how to deal with my army now, and may resort to cheese just have a chance. My Dark Eldar friend has had a rough time with my AV 13 goodness before the codex dropped, so now he doesn't even know either. My girlfriend doesn't wanna play me. And my Daemons/CSM/Eldar player is feeling some of the pain as well, after I tabled his daemons.

That being said, I both love and hate this codex for that. I like to win, mind you. I don't resort to spamming or cheese combos or whatnot, but I enjoy having a strong army thats challenging for people to face. Now, good God. It might get to the point where I have to play Nids because people don't wanna fight Crons.

well I hear this stuff with every codex drop.

Give it time. adjusting to new things takes time. The Reanimation protocol going to 4+ is really beefy, but morale is their weakness. Attack them in close combat and force them to roll or use LD based attacks to conquer the unconquerable Necrons.

It has taken a REALLY long time for people to accept that to defeat Wave Spam you have to smash their hulls into the dirt in turn 2 with your fists. The same can be said of necrons. They arent terrible in melee but dedicated melee units should win against Necron Warriors. So have more dedicated melee would be my advice to the girlfriend.

Sabor wrote:

...
Then I saw the codex for what it was it did change and as i play tested it (going through 5 matches since its release) my worst fears actually came to life. I started to feel like they made my army even stronger! I have been desperately looking for forums for other peoples opinions. So perhaps some of my experiences will help this out. For starters 2 weeks ago i fought some nids and marveled at my 10 lychguard with 1 overlord being deepstruck behind enemy lines. I boldly held my ground when the swarm lord charged me confident my new CC masters could defeat, combat had lasted a stunning 4 rounds before a victor was called. I had bested the swarm lord 3 times only causing him a total of 4 wounds (he also regained 2 from IWND) getting one lucky round off he downed 3 lychguard. my eyes quickly turned to horror as i now had to make a leadership test of 5 (negative 2 to leadership due to tyranidness...) he over ran me and did some had effectively finished off a very expensive unit. My other encounter of note was trying the canoptek harvest formation, fighting gray knights i could not believe how well things were working with 3++ and a 4 up RP on my wraiths. He had brought 2 dreadknights though and insta gibbed my spyders after teleporting in. Gauss was useful as always but couldn't really pack the punch I needed to bring him down^

...

The shadow in the warp rule (the -2 Ld) only applies to psykers, so there is no way to make it work on Necrons. Unless I'm missing some special rule the Swarmlord has.

 Jancoran wrote:
well I hear this stuff with every codex drop.

Give it time. adjusting to new things takes time. The Reanimation protocol going to 4+ is really beefy, but morale is their weakness. Attack them in close combat and force them to roll or use LD based attacks to conquer the unconquerable Necrons.

It has taken a REALLY long time for people to accept that to defeat Wave Spam you have to smash their hulls into the dirt in turn 2 with your fists. The same can be said of necrons. They arent terrible in melee but dedicated melee units should win against Necron Warriors. So have more dedicated melee would be my advice to the girlfriend.

You realize they got Ld 10 across the board right? There's litterally no army that's got better Ld than Necrons.
I mean, sure you could sweep them but since Necron warriors got the same cc power as tactical marines (bare the initiative), I really don't see how you're going to force Ld checks on them with significant negative modifiers.

 Jancoran wrote:
well I hear this stuff with every codex drop.

Give it time. adjusting to new things takes time. The Reanimation protocol going to 4+ is really beefy, but morale is their weakness. Attack them in close combat and force them to roll or use LD based attacks to conquer the unconquerable Necrons.

It has taken a REALLY long time for people to accept that to defeat Wave Spam you have to smash their hulls into the dirt in turn 2 with your fists. The same can be said of necrons. They arent terrible in melee but dedicated melee units should win against Necron Warriors. So have more dedicated melee would be my advice to the girlfriend.

There LD10 moral is a weakness?

At best the near only option for that would be the silly Eldar/DEldar Spook factory, trying to drop em down to ld6 and scare em off the board.
and a few of there stronger options is straight fearless.

Curse you ninja!!!!!

LD is this stat that Space Marines essentially ignore, but it bites Necrons in the butt in the assault phase.

 adamsouza wrote:
LD is this stat that Space Marines essentially ignore, but it bites Necrons in the butt in the assault phase.

But when does that matter anymore? When you basically dont lose any models in CC.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Objective Secured is minimized in power gamers minds because they like what the more elite units can do. It has everything to do with the pre-occupation certain competitive players have with "kill Ratios" and the like and nothing to do with logic because heres an inescapable reality, one that no amount of minimizing can delete:

If I keep a mobile unit off the board to start and alive to the end that is Objective Secured, then I only ever have to tie the rest of the objectives...which I can do later also.

So a General who understands the timing of his game better than he does kill ratios will constantly confound the elite players who are trying to out-muscle you.

Again, nobody is denying ObSec can have it's uses, but what you describe is relatively easy to counter with a variety of methods, and is highly variable in effectiveness, particularly with Random Game Length (and is precisely why RGL exists) and the way Maelstrom Missions only require you to hold to the end of your own turn. The game generally does a good job of making this tactic more a situational event than an opening plan. Can it work? Sure. Will it work against someone who's seen it before? Often no.

ObSec also isn't always necessarily needed for this to work either, especially if you only need to contest rather than hold.

That was a lot of words that didn't say anything. "relatively easy" and "variety of methods"? "Situational"? All minimizing vague words. Suggesting that it will "only work" once on someone is also confusing to me, because the opponent simply has no choice. if they have no obsec, they wont be contesting anything in Maelstrom either if my army is fast enough.

Ok, lets go through this then.

Lets talk about the "variety of methods" of dealing with such a tactics.

The easiest is often simply putting enough of something on an objective that said unit can't get within 3" of that objective. Most infantry squads can do this, as can many tanks. This then means that you can't just swoop in and land near the objective freely to contest or take it, and have to dedicate resources to clearing it, often making that tactic far less effective.

Another is that such ObSec units usually tend to not be the hardiest or largest of units when fielded in this capacity. They'll be things like minimum sized Jetbike squads. The first time they come out, they can often be engaged and destroyed relatively easily. Likewise, Barrage weapons, something like a TFC or a Wyvern battery or Nightspinner, are typically pretty good at dealing with these guys while they're hiding. Often, it may not be possible to hide them for more than a turn or two, particularly on many tournament tables.


The situational part I thought I covered pretty well in my posts, but I guess i'll re-iterate. The usefulness depends highly on whether you're playing Eternal or Maesltrom missions, and on the way the objectives are being held. In Eternal War missions, ObSec only matters on the last turn, which is random. In either mission type, ObSec only matters if an objective is contested in the first place (many opponents may never try to contest or hold certain objectives), and will only swing the game occasionally (e.g. if an opponent is holding three objectives and you'd got none, having an ObSec jetbike unit take one on the last turn isn't going to change the outcome, you still only control 1 to their 2).

Hence why the Decurion and sub-formation bonuses, being "always on", are of far more consistent and notable value.

Since 7th's come out, I've only had ObSec win me 1 game, which otherwise would have been a tie, and I don't recall it losing me any over probably ~40 or so pickup games and four tournaments.

Look I get it if you want to have more "cool toys" on the table, but I assure you I burn people over and over that don't respect the importance of Objective Secured units. They're busy trying to kill me all game and I'm busy stealing their lunch. Lol.

Oh man, an ad-hominem attack and a veiled "L2P" comment, what a zinger!

Also, for the billionth time, not saying it doesn't have any utility, obviously it does and it's nice when it kicks in, but it's not as hugely critical as its made out to be.

Not that this has much to do with the Necron Codex except for in this aspect: A Living Tomb can eject TWO units of Warriors out of its bowels when it arrives. Lots of Obsec warriors sling shotting from one side of the board to the entirely other side of the board is pretty awesome. As a segue, I ask you to consider how good that is when the enemy doesn't have any Obsec and the necrons have it anywhere they want it.

If they're dumping that many Warriors *and* a gigantic Monolith onto an objective, I probably can't get within 3" to contest it anyway, particularly not without immediately losing whatever it was I sent there the next turn. Even if I had Obsec units, I could only contest, and unless that one objective is going to decide the game, my resources may be better put elsewhere.

 Desubot wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
LD is this stat that Space Marines essentially ignore, but it bites Necrons in the butt in the assault phase.

But when does that matter anymore? When you basically dont lose any models in CC.

We lose 50% less models in close combat.

You ever see a Monstrous Creature crush a squad of Necron Warriors ? 4+RP or not, you lose the assault.

 adamsouza wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
LD is this stat that Space Marines essentially ignore, but it bites Necrons in the butt in the assault phase.

But when does that matter anymore? When you basically dont lose any models in CC.

We lose 50% less models in close combat.

You ever see a Monstrous Creature crush a squad of Necron Warriors ? 4+RP or not, you lose the assault.

Most MC have what 4-5 attacks?

Of that only 2-3 hit

assuming they all woundish, you only lose at best 2 models. LD8 is not often going to fail. not ideal but not the achilies heel of the army.

One Daemon Prince to another, "They tell me these Necrons are OP, but I'm not seeing it"

 Desubot wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
well I hear this stuff with every codex drop.

Give it time. adjusting to new things takes time. The Reanimation protocol going to 4+ is really beefy, but morale is their weakness. Attack them in close combat and force them to roll or use LD based attacks to conquer the unconquerable Necrons.

It has taken a REALLY long time for people to accept that to defeat Wave Spam you have to smash their hulls into the dirt in turn 2 with your fists. The same can be said of necrons. They arent terrible in melee but dedicated melee units should win against Necron Warriors. So have more dedicated melee would be my advice to the girlfriend.

There LD10 moral is a weakness?
At best the near only option for that would be the silly Eldar/DEldar Spook factory, trying to drop em down to ld6 and scare em off the board.
and a few of there stronger options is straight fearless.

DE alone can get it down pretty far, ld 7 i think and then the nova is a further -2. Throw in iyanden and harlies and you could get one unit down to ld 3. Too bad leadership negging armies cant work with space marines existing.

 Jancoran wrote:
well I hear this stuff with every codex drop.

Give it time. adjusting to new things takes time. The Reanimation protocol going to 4+ is really beefy, but morale is their weakness. Attack them in close combat and force them to roll or use LD based attacks to conquer the unconquerable Necrons.

Wait, you heard talk of OP-ness from the blood angels new codex? Or virtually any other 7e dex? Where? From who?

Also saying an army has a weakness to cc in this edition is like saying they have a 2m wide thermal exhaust port somewhere on something the size of a moon. From several games I've already recognized that actually getting a lot of cron models to leave the table essentially requires sweeping advances.
But if you play a decently balanced decurion with a couple minimum harvests to intercept quick cc bullies like I taught our local cron players to do, than that weakness is pretty much a non-issue.

The 7crons is the first book in a long time that I've been taken aback by just how beast they decided to make a book. It's been what? A couple years since eldar?

I think Trazyn the infinite is in disguise on the GW design team.

 Exergy wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
well I hear this stuff with every codex drop.

Give it time. adjusting to new things takes time. The Reanimation protocol going to 4+ is really beefy, but morale is their weakness. Attack them in close combat and force them to roll or use LD based attacks to conquer the unconquerable Necrons.

It has taken a REALLY long time for people to accept that to defeat Wave Spam you have to smash their hulls into the dirt in turn 2 with your fists. The same can be said of necrons. They arent terrible in melee but dedicated melee units should win against Necron Warriors. So have more dedicated melee would be my advice to the girlfriend.

There LD10 moral is a weakness?
At best the near only option for that would be the silly Eldar/DEldar Spook factory, trying to drop em down to ld6 and scare em off the board.
and a few of there stronger options is straight fearless.

DE alone can get it down pretty far, ld 7 i think and then the nova is a further -2. Throw in iyanden and harlies and you could get one unit down to ld 3. Too bad leadership negging armies cant work with space marines existing.

Meh just PS them already

The negatives do work (most of em) its the secondary effects that dont. so you can totally tank shock some SM off the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 adamsouza wrote:


One Daemon Prince to another, "They tell me these Necrons are OP, but I'm not seeing it"

You are telling me it takes over 5-6 times more points worth of models to kill a bunch of warriors?

 adamsouza wrote:


One Daemon Prince to another, "They tell me these Necrons are OP, but I'm not seeing it"

thats cute, want me to make the same Pic with wraiths and every 7th edition codex? you know the ones that are actually written to be balanced?

that is until some bumbling idiot hiding behind the "GW development team" wrote this wonderfully screwed up mess.

Don't get me wrong its well written in the Internal Balance sense that nothing is really "useless" (this is truly why some Necron player don't want to admit it could be OP) however who ever wrote this went way overboard with the formation bonuses.

and now we're stuck in one situation in which either the books coming in the future are written to be like the other 7th books making the Necrons even more OP , or they write them like the Necron book and make the first 7th books worthless again for years to come.

I'm sorry I'm sick of hearing they're resilient but beatable. By who, the other poorly written armies that can and will spam a few good units? (Yes that Means things like Daemon Princes) or by someone who has to throw down a cheesy super friends list with St-D and Stompy Knights? just to have a chance to beat your normal lists.

FWIW I do feel bad for some Necron players because you all know the snubs will start coming soon and people will start turning games against you down or Bust out their Super Friends lists one of the 2.

Ugh...as this forum continues i draw further into the grimace I wont be able to play Necrons in a friendly manner anymore.

As a side note I will throw out everything that is a weakness in the Necron army that might help maybe give some hope that they are not horribly broken beyond all repair...
-Almost all vehicles are open topped and become very dead after a penetrating hit.
-Lack of 2 up armor saves for most units (Aside from HQs)(kind of mitigated by the fact they get RP).
-Lack of unit weapon diversity (I.E. no infantry melta options and almost no infantry flamer templates).
-No reliable ignores cover weapons. (Except things that have ordinance or flamer quality.)
-Lack of high strength low AP (Better with destroyers now, but still hard to kill MC's)
-No psyker powers what so ever (No summoning daemons, no invisibility, no biomancy)
-Very few fearless units (CCB lets you reroll failed morale test though within 12 inches).
-No eternal warrior (Thank the God Emperor)
-Poor initiative.
-Lack of reliable S: D (For those days that you really really hate the guy that brought 3 wraithknights.)

Now a list of pluses
-RP for almost all infantry in the army.
-Ignore crew shaken and stunned results (Not that these rolls come up often with open topped vehicles anyway)
-Almost every vehicle gets a jink save.
-Still very cheap reliable flyers for anti air.
-Wraiths are now sadly an auto take for how good they are....
-Gauss hurts everything from your toughest baneblade to your strongest Hierophant (Swiss army knife of 40k)
-Very cheap lords of war.
-Minimum of AV13 on front and side armor until a penetrating hit is suffered.

Feel free to give constructive criticism or add to anything i may have missed. (This is meant to be a helpful list of observations)

Meh.. There is no point in me discussing this further. Some of you have decided it's OP and nothing I am going to say is going to change that. Since I don't actually play against any of you, I'm going to quit wasting my time with this thread.

Dont forget the av13 that essentially make it nearly impossible pen at range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 adamsouza wrote:
Meh.. There is no point in me discussing this further. Some of you have decided it's OP and nothing I am going to say is going to change that. Since I don't actually play against any of you, I'm going to quit wasting my time with this thread.

So you really do not have an answer besides spend 5x more points to take out basic troops?

 Jancoran wrote:
well I hear this stuff with every codex drop.

Give it time. adjusting to new things takes time. The Reanimation protocol going to 4+ is really beefy, but morale is their weakness. Attack them in close combat and force them to roll or use LD based attacks to conquer the unconquerable Necrons.

It has taken a REALLY long time for people to accept that to defeat Wave Spam you have to smash their hulls into the dirt in turn 2 with your fists. The same can be said of necrons. They arent terrible in melee but dedicated melee units should win against Necron Warriors. So have more dedicated melee would be my advice to the girlfriend.

What are you talking about? We didn't hear it with Imperial Guard, we DEFINITELY didn't hear it with BA, SW was the only one where people felt a little overwhelmed with the TWC. Right now the actual concern with Necrons is that they are damn durable and their weakest units have the chance to hurt, this means they are effectively a chunk of steel you can slowly bludgeon an opponents list with.

 Desubot wrote:
Dont forget the av13 that essentially make it nearly impossible pen at range.

Ah thank you do not know how I missed that.

Also side note I LOVE NECRONS I really do hence why I am trying to find a way I can run them where it would still be fun for my opponent and give them a chance without completing steam rushing them off the table. I do not necessarily believe they are broken as a Football players knee on game day, but I do think they are pretty damn good.