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If you want to handicap yourself just bring some C'Tan, they are shaping up to be complete garbage. The only part of the codex that is not internally balanced.

Tekron wrote:
If you want to handicap yourself just bring some C'Tan, they are shaping up to be complete garbage. The only part of the codex that is not internally balanced.

Umm, they're not good when you waste 480 points on them. The Transcendant Ctan and nightbringer are still pretty killy IMO. I'm used Nightbringer in both games I've played, and he's performed well.

Anyone knows how to down them with IG, because we can't melee them, lack of low AP necron weapons doesn't matter much against our dudes and the no cover jetbikes scare me as much as NDKS with their flamers?

Makumba wrote:
Anyone knows how to down them with IG, because we can't melee them, lack of low AP necron weapons doesn't matter much against our dudes and the no cover jetbikes scare me as much as NDKS with their flamers?

Shoot them accross the map with manticores

get locked into combat with big fearless bobs on objectives
Wombo combo with other codexces

Auto cannons

Moo


Edit: Psyker support your blob (forwarning comes to mind)

Conscripts are a doom of crons. Unless they run flayed ones. But than you just concentrate your artillery on flayed ones and drown everything else in bodies.
Unkillable robots? They obliterate everything and just don't die? Send in the next wave, i say!

After 10 games with my Crons against DE, Nids and Orks I think it's safe to say this is the most fun I have had with the crons in a long time. While they are more resilient and all my opponents needed to rework their armies to eventually tie the game (Only the Nids beat me), the new book is not unstoppable. If anyone is having troubles I would be more than willing to give advice.

TheUnyielding wrote:
After 10 games with my Crons against DE, Nids and Orks I think it's safe to say this is the most fun I have had with the crons in a long time. While they are more resilient and all my opponents needed to rework their armies to eventually tie the game (Only the Nids beat me), the new book is not unstoppable. If anyone is having troubles I would be more than willing to give advice.

As long as dice are in the game, no book is unstoppable. But the fact that one of our newbie players who started crons about 4 months ago and barely ever won is now on a 10 win streak (I built his decurion list for him) speaks volumes. In the games I've seen, he's still unfamiliar with some rules, and makes some pretty grievous tactical errors, but is still winning thanks to his army just being nigh immortal.

Thought about running a scatter laser spam list vs a double harvest decurion list in 1250 point game. My list ran 18 scatter lasers in it. So that 64 shots that hit on 3s (Averaging about 42 hits) and wounds on 3s (Average 28 wounds) Well with failed invul saves that would deal about 9 wounds before RP then only 4.5 after. So with that large volume of fire grand total of 2 dead and maybe 1 wound on the rest. So yeah thats not going to work.

Though about running a Triple Dreadknight spam list with Gatling Psilencers.

36 shots, 24 hits, 8 wounds. Meaning with instant death likely 2 dead after Invul and RP. So slightly better given that the Heavy Psycannons or Incinerators might do a wound.

In melee 6 wraiths vs 2 dread knights. Wraiths go first 18 attacks. 9 hits 4 normal wounds 1 rend. Likely 1-2 wounds on the dreads. Dreads Attack back 8 attacks. Roughly 6 hits. 5 wounds. Likely 1 dead wraith maybe 2 if lucky. This seems to be the most effective option near I can tell. Still you will likely lose 1 dread in a cc where you have a nearly 200 point advantage to break even on points.

Imperial Knight Castigator vs 6 wraiths. Wraiths go first. 18 attacks 9 hits 1.5 rend likely 1 pen but only a hullpoint. Assume that after pile in at I5 all wraiths are in base contact with with Castigator 6 automatic hits. 5 wounds. 1.66 failed invul saves. So likely 2 more deflag wounds. Looking again at 2 dead wraiths. Stomps well be more random in removing them but with a bit of luck is the most likely option.

30 man squad of sluga Boyz with a power claw nob. 87 attacks 43.5 hits. 7.25 wounds. After invul and RP 1.2 wounds so maybe 1 dead. Nob will add a little to that but to be perfectly honest you wont have all 30 boyz swinging back.

All in all. Wraiths by themselves while upper levels of good are certainly manageable and "fair".

Harvest formation should be banned period.

Decurion is Good no doubt about that but aside from Harvest is just in the Really strong realm of things rather then the can't be beat side.

Eh, the destroyer cult is pretty intensely good, and even just having a rec legion with 4+ RP reroll 1's near the overlord...the bonuses are just over the top.

Our group is considering banning decurions in standard pick up games until several more codices come out with their own version of it, at which point we'll take another look.

 Desubot wrote:

Makumba wrote:
Anyone knows how to down them with IG, because we can't melee them, lack of low AP necron weapons doesn't matter much against our dudes and the no cover jetbikes scare me as much as NDKS with their flamers?

Shoot them accross the map with manticores

get locked into combat with big fearless bobs on objectives
Wombo combo with other codexces

Auto cannons

Moo


Edit: Psyker support your blob (forwarning comes to mind)

yeah I kind of stoped using psykers, because they were dieing too fast and stoped by oppossing armies having more power dice then me. I doubt I could cross the mid field alive with enough models to get stuck with necron in melee and that is after I got disembarked somehow.
Manticores don't realy work for me as my other 2 opponents are eldar and GK , ap does nothing to them.

I have 10 Grey Hunters, a RP and 3 long fangs, would does help anyway?

Intuitively, IG's answer to Necrons is massed artillery. Baslisks will ID Warriors and Immortals -- so will battle cannons for that matter. Sweet, sweet Manticores.

I feel sorry for people who want to play all-infantry armies though. I don't know how they can deal with this.

 Desubot wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
LD is this stat that Space Marines essentially ignore, but it bites Necrons in the butt in the assault phase.

But when does that matter anymore? When you basically dont lose any models in CC.

Yes you do, you just need to be using the right models to assault with. Power weapons work wonders for taking away armor saves reducing them to only the RP save which makes them more likely to lose models, thus lose combat, thus break.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
LD is this stat that Space Marines essentially ignore, but it bites Necrons in the butt in the assault phase.

But when does that matter anymore? When you basically dont lose any models in CC.

Yes you do, you just need to be using the right models to assault with. Power weapons work wonders for taking away armor saves reducing them to only the RP save which makes them more likely to lose models, thus lose combat, thus break.

Well sure if you are sending in a unit that cost probably double what the necron unit would be.
You are basically competing with a 4+ invul save. against WS4 so only half your attacks will most likely go through. then T4 which besides mauls (if you are kinda list tailoring) will take another half off that.

You basically need to deal 4 wounds and take non of your own to have a better than 50% chance for a sweep attempt.(GK Force weapons might have the best chance)

Alcibiades wrote:
Intuitively, IG's answer to Necrons is massed artillery. Baslisks will ID Warriors and Immortals -- so will battle cannons for that matter. Sweet, sweet Manticores.

I feel sorry for people who want to play all-infantry armies though. I don't know how they can deal with this.

Sit on objectives and win hard. bonus points for cover, forewarning, invisibility

DaPino wrote:

You realize they got Ld 10 across the board right? There's litterally no army that's got better Ld than Necrons.
I mean, sure you could sweep them but since Necron warriors got the same cc power as tactical marines (bare the initiative), I really don't see how you're going to force Ld checks on them with significant negative modifiers.

You answered your own question.

Sweeping them is exactly the answer. DEDICATED melee units, which is what I said to use more of, will sweep them. Psychic Shriek and other powers can work and of course the Hemlock Jetfighter for Eldar is an exceptionally good tool against them. The list of Dark Eldar nerfs you can get on someones ld is very good. And this is just one element you can use to tip the scales back in your favor.

Sometimes as in the Wave Serpents case, the answer just isn't shooting them.

Heck throw in some Legion of the Damned for extra LD fun.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Lets talk about the "variety of methods" of dealing with such a tactics.

The easiest is often simply putting enough of something on an objective that said unit can't get within 3" of that objective. Most infantry squads can do this, as can many tanks. This then means that you can't just swoop in and land near the objective freely to contest or take it, and have to dedicate resources to clearing it, often making that tactic far less effective.

Another is that such ObSec units usually tend to not be the hardiest or largest of units when fielded in this capacity. They'll be things like minimum sized Jetbike squads. The first time they come out, they can often be engaged and destroyed relatively easily. Likewise, Barrage weapons, something like a TFC or a Wyvern battery or Nightspinner, are typically pretty good at dealing with these guys while they're hiding. Often, it may not be possible to hide them for more than a turn or two, particularly on many tournament tables.


The situational part I thought I covered pretty well in my posts, but I guess i'll re-iterate. The usefulness depends highly on whether you're playing Eternal or Maesltrom missions, and on the way the objectives are being held. In Eternal War missions, ObSec only matters on the last turn, which is random. In either mission type, ObSec only matters if an objective is contested in the first place (many opponents may never try to contest or hold certain objectives), and will only swing the game occasionally (e.g. if an opponent is holding three objectives and you'd got none, having an ObSec jetbike unit take one on the last turn isn't going to change the outcome, you still only control 1 to their 2).

Hence why the Decurion and sub-formation bonuses, being "always on", are of far more consistent and notable value.

Since 7th's come out, I've only had ObSec win me 1 game, which otherwise would have been a tie, and I don't recall it losing me any over probably ~40 or so pickup games and four tournaments.

Also, for the billionth time, not saying it doesn't have any utility, obviously it does and it's nice when it kicks in, but it's not as hugely critical as its made out to be.

Now we're getting somewhere.

"Enough of something": So your idea is to block off the objective in a 360 degree arc, that no amount of shooting can penetrate on any side to allow a charge to within 3" iof the objective? May I humbly suggest that while this is certainly wise to do, it is also very unlikely to work unless the enemy is substantially weakened by this time in the game. Moreover, this also assumes that you are NOT weakeend to the point of not being able to cover it in 360 degrees. You see the problem right? Both of those assumptions is a LOT of assumption. Ironically you then point out the answer to this tactic yourself: Wyverns, Night Spinners, Shadow Weavers, and the miriad of barrage weaponry that can clear the way for units to get there with run moves, jetbike moves, Flat out moves and the list goes on. I really dont feel like this strategy, while its not a bad strategy at all, is an answer to my assertions. It doesnt address them well. I have a recnt batrep on my blog that kind of illustrates how ancillary units are used to clear paths for this exact purpose. So the Enough of Something idea is fine, but it still has to get lucky, because it doesn't take very many dead soldiers to clear a path especially with the "closest models dies first" mechanic, assuming you even have that many by the time it matters, usually at games end.

You assert that Obsec can be minimized by the fact that it often comes on "not he heartiest of chassis" so to speak. Yet I would point out to you that even a Tactical marine is a 3+ save and standing ones ground is the only prerequisite for taking the objecive. Assuming it will always be a 3 man Jetbike squad isn't really a fair assumption at all. Now if that happens to BE the case then you have something. But as a general concept, I dont think you can take away from Objective secured solely on the basis that they MIGHT be non-fearless three man quads. Come now. The Shard of Anaris can make just ONE such biker unit quite annoying and any fearless troop choice OR any troop choice with zealot, ATSKNF and so on is going to be more than up to the task if they can just hold out at games end.

In Maelstrom i disagree. Maelstrom missions are VERY loody affairs as a rule because you expose yourself to anger in ways and in turns you dont in Eternal War missions. An Objective secured force can pe-emptively move to positions (again as i mentioned in my previous post, if it is fast enough) and deny the opponent any chance at the objective point. Just by scattering they can rob the eenmy of precious points and the Maelstrom game really does hurt you if you have to wait a turn or two to get those objective points while the opponent freely scores them.

This isnt news. I think you are not accounting for someone who will pre-emptively take objective points. Aggression is rewarded big trime because its not just a killing game. dying doesnt mean as much in Maelstrom. ONE MAN in a units leftovers can score on you AND deny you again! Just one. Really consider the import of that truth. So the danger of losing 9 out of ten dudes is still worth it to score something and deny the enemy for a whole other round. It's a great trade off. Even when exposed by your position, only some of the enemy can get at you. Will it be enough? Well thats why we play the game isnt it?

You've won one game, you said, because of obsec. ive won many. null game.

Fun Fact: Being in melee does NOT prevent you from holding an objective. If an Objective Secured unit charges a non-Objective Sercured unit and manages to get within 3" of the objective they count as holding it as they can only be contested by another Objective Secured unit.

So bubble wrapping isn't a sure thing. Besides, it's always possible to pull your horde off the objective with a protracted assault and take the objective while you're busy.

Anything you think of can be countered. There is no "sure thing" to keep people from holding an Objective other than tabling.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
LD is this stat that Space Marines essentially ignore, but it bites Necrons in the butt in the assault phase.

But when does that matter anymore? When you basically dont lose any models in CC.

Yes you do, you just need to be using the right models to assault with. Power weapons work wonders for taking away armor saves reducing them to only the RP save which makes them more likely to lose models, thus lose combat, thus break.

Except that one of there best melee formations Canoptek harvest has 3++ saves....with T5.... and 2 Wounds each with a maximum size of 6 per squad.

Tir Mcdoul wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
LD is this stat that Space Marines essentially ignore, but it bites Necrons in the butt in the assault phase.

But when does that matter anymore? When you basically dont lose any models in CC.

Yes you do, you just need to be using the right models to assault with. Power weapons work wonders for taking away armor saves reducing them to only the RP save which makes them more likely to lose models, thus lose combat, thus break.

Except that one of there best melee formations Canoptek harvest has 3++ saves....with T5.... and 2 Wounds each with a maximum size of 6 per squad.

The discussion wasn't how to beat Wraiths, it was beating (and then sweeping) other units.

And yes, beating Wraiths in hand is possible, if a slow slog.

You know how you kill durable units like Wraiths the fastest? Pour as many dice into them as possible all at once. They WILL fail saves.

 ClockworkZion wrote:


You know how you kill durable units like Wraiths the fastest? Pour as many dice into them as possible all at once. They WILL fail saves.

Well, that could be said about anything in the game. >.>

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Fun Fact: Being in melee does NOT prevent you from holding an objective. If an Objective Secured unit charges a non-Objective Sercured unit and manages to get within 3" of the objective they count as holding it as they can only be contested by another Objective Secured unit.

So bubble wrapping isn't a sure thing. Besides, it's always possible to pull your horde off the objective with a protracted assault and take the objective while you're busy.

Anything you think of can be countered. There is no "sure thing" to keep people from holding an Objective other than tabling.

Scarab swarms can grow to a size where you cannot clear the area.

Monolith, Obelisk parking is a sure thing in many matchups.

Also, the Necron player can focus on killing the objSec units as top priority all game. Of course a list with tons of MSU can get around, which is why I think a heavy MSU list is a possible hard counter.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:


You know how you kill durable units like Wraiths the fastest? Pour as many dice into them as possible all at once. They WILL fail saves.

Well, that could be said about anything in the game. >.>

It's the same advice used to kill Hammernators, Plague Marines and everything else that has a high toughness low save going on (like many of the new Nid MCs). Just because it's durable doesn't mean you can't kill it, it just means you need to use target priority and approach the game in a manner beyond "I shot it with one unit, it didn't work, I quit."

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:


You know how you kill durable units like Wraiths the fastest? Pour as many dice into them as possible all at once. They WILL fail saves.

Well, that could be said about anything in the game. >.>

It's the same advice used to kill Hammernators, Plague Marines and everything else that has a high toughness low save going on (like many of the new Nid MCs). Just because it's durable doesn't mean you can't kill it, it just means you need to use target priority and approach the game in a manner beyond "I shot it with one unit, it didn't work, I quit."

Agreed. Though, I feel bad for my friend. Most of his shooting was poured into my Warriors, and he managed only to kill a few, having some of them come back with a Ghost Ark on my turn. >.>

 Jancoran wrote:



Now we're getting somewhere.

"Enough of something": So your idea is to block off the objective in a 360 degree arc, that no amount of shooting can penetrate on any side to allow a charge to within 3" iof the objective? May I humbly suggest that while this is certainly wise to do, it is also very unlikely to work unless the enemy is substantially weakened by this time in the game. Moreover, this also assumes that you are NOT weakeend to the point of not being able to cover it in 360 degrees.

It's one of several options you have, not the only one. That said, I did not say that it was immune to being penetrated, only that it requires an opponent to devote resources to doing so as opposed to being able to freely skip in and take it, which weakens the strength of the tactic that so often relies on being able to run in and take/contest things without devoting much in the way of effort to it.

Likewise, again, lots of vehicle & monstrous Creature units can "body block" rather well, preventing an opponent from getting within 3" simply through their physical size (or making it really awkward to try and find the sliver that's within 3" and not within an inch of the enemy) once you sit them on an objective.

You see the problem right? Both of those assumptions is a LOT of assumption. Ironically you then point out the answer to this tactic yourself: Wyverns, Night Spinners, Shadow Weavers, and the miriad of barrage weaponry that can clear the way for units to get there with run moves, jetbike moves, Flat out moves and the list goes on.

Absolutely you can, but again, this then removes much of the value of the "cheap mobile objective spoiler" in the first place, because again, it work best when you don't have to devote effort (or much effort) to supporting it. Otherwise often a more conventional unit if often of greater value as it can assist in clearing the objective.

You assert that Obsec can be minimized by the fact that it often comes on "not he heartiest of chassis" so to speak. Yet I would point out to you that even a Tactical marine is a 3+ save and standing ones ground is the only prerequisite for taking the objecive. Assuming it will always be a 3 man Jetbike squad isn't really a fair assumption at all.

it's the most common that I can recall encountering and reading about in the "cheap, mobile, kept in reserve/hiding" role, and usually the most effective given the tremendous speed. Hence why I went with that.

Now if that happens to BE the case then you have something. But as a general concept, I dont think you can take away from Objective secured solely on the basis that they MIGHT be non-fearless three man quads.

I'm not, but I was addressing the idea of the "cheap, mobile, kept in reserve/hiding" ObSec unit, which is exactly what these often are. Fearless is nice, but again, if the unit doesn't have a lot of "meat", it may be moot and dead in one round once it comes into view.

If we're talking heavier, beefier units, and Marines, they won't have quite the same ability to dash across the board to objectives the way the Jetbikes do, and because of their investment, often will have to spend game time contributing to fighting instead of just sitting on an objective. SM bikers are fast, but not always Troops, and are often employed in a front line role that sees them priority targeted anyway, while Jump Marines and Tac squads lack the same sort of speed (well, they lack everything compared to Bikes, but we'll that the overbuffed-bikers topic to another thread).

In Maelstrom i disagree. Maelstrom missions are VERY loody affairs as a rule because you expose yourself to anger in ways and in turns you dont in Eternal War missions. An Objective secured force can pe-emptively move to positions (again as i mentioned in my previous post, if it is fast enough) and deny the opponent any chance at the objective point. Just by scattering they can rob the eenmy of precious points and the Maelstrom game really does hurt you if you have to wait a turn or two to get those objective points while the opponent freely scores them.

They absolutely can, but this usually relies on speedy MSU, and that's not something Necrons do well with their units that could possibly gain Objective Secured.

This isnt news. I think you are not accounting for someone who will pre-emptively take objective points. Aggression is rewarded big trime because its not just a killing game. dying doesnt mean as much in Maelstrom. ONE MAN in a units leftovers can score on you AND deny you again! Just one. Really consider the import of that truth. So the danger of losing 9 out of ten dudes is still worth it to score something and deny the enemy for a whole other round. It's a great trade off. Even when exposed by your position, only some of the enemy can get at you. Will it be enough? Well thats why we play the game isnt it?

Yes, one guy left can make the difference. But that's a highly situational example, most of the time an opponent is going to do their damndest to kill off that one last guy and is usually successful. Can that pull through? Sure. I've had a few games where that has pulled through or worked against me in my 40k experiences. But they're memorable exceptions or games where both sides have been so savaged as to have almost nothing left anyway, or, more usually when we're talking about a lone survivor on an objective, the objectives in question weren't contested in the first place (as otherwise it's far less likely that that one model would be left alive), and thus ObSec would play no role.

Again, not saying that ObSec is useless, but that it's not the must-have ability it's sometimes made out to be, and it's not going to be the "downfall" of Decurion armies as was earlier asserted.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Tir Mcdoul wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
LD is this stat that Space Marines essentially ignore, but it bites Necrons in the butt in the assault phase.

But when does that matter anymore? When you basically dont lose any models in CC.

Yes you do, you just need to be using the right models to assault with. Power weapons work wonders for taking away armor saves reducing them to only the RP save which makes them more likely to lose models, thus lose combat, thus break.

Except that one of there best melee formations Canoptek harvest has 3++ saves....with T5.... and 2 Wounds each with a maximum size of 6 per squad.

The discussion wasn't how to beat Wraiths, it was beating (and then sweeping) other units.

And yes, beating Wraiths in hand is possible, if a slow slog.

You know how you kill durable units like Wraiths the fastest? Pour as many dice into them as possible all at once. They WILL fail saves.

Those numbers are nearly impossible. well over 200 hits alone (not shots) over the course of a game sure. but when is anyone gona let you shoot at them for over 5 turns in a game?

 krodarklorr wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:


You know how you kill durable units like Wraiths the fastest? Pour as many dice into them as possible all at once. They WILL fail saves.

Well, that could be said about anything in the game. >.>

It's the same advice used to kill Hammernators, Plague Marines and everything else that has a high toughness low save going on (like many of the new Nid MCs). Just because it's durable doesn't mean you can't kill it, it just means you need to use target priority and approach the game in a manner beyond "I shot it with one unit, it didn't work, I quit."

Agreed. Though, I feel bad for my friend. Most of his shooting was poured into my Warriors, and he managed only to kill a few, having some of them come back with a Ghost Ark on my turn. >.>

Templates and pie plates are a better weapon to use on Warriors. Most of those are AP4 or better and will help drop them quicker which means less saves.

Against Wraiths the answer just comes down to dice. Lots and lots of dice. That and lots and lots of dice into the Spyder.

I almost thing Necrons make Psilencers worth looking at because of the ID. Sure it's not much, but if even one wound gets through that's a model dropped immediately. Same for Force Weapons.

Deathwing Knights also look like a decent choice to smash Wraiths since you can huddle for T5 and boost your strength 1x a game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

You know how you kill durable units like Wraiths the fastest? Pour as many dice into them as possible all at once. They WILL fail saves.

Those numbers are nearly impossible. well over 200 hits alone (not shots) over the course of a game sure. but when is anyone gona let you shoot at them for over 5 turns in a game?

200 hits from what kind of unit and what weapons? Citation needed for your math there.

TheUnyielding wrote:
After 10 games with my Crons against DE, Nids and Orks I think it's safe to say this is the most fun I have had with the crons in a long time. While they are more resilient and all my opponents needed to rework their armies to eventually tie the game (Only the Nids beat me), the new book is not unstoppable. If anyone is having troubles I would be more than willing to give advice.

Ok..... So ... Your defenition of not unstoppable is that after 10 games the best all but ONE of your opponents (who were "adjusting their lists" aka list tailoring for your army) could hope to muster was a tie.......boy that sounds like a lot of fun to play against.

 ClockworkZion wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

You know how you kill durable units like Wraiths the fastest? Pour as many dice into them as possible all at once. They WILL fail saves.

Those numbers are nearly impossible. well over 200 hits alone (not shots) over the course of a game sure. but when is anyone gona let you shoot at them for over 5 turns in a game?

200 hits from what kind of unit and what weapons? Citation needed for your math there.

Sorry Clarification, im talking about a unit of 6 with Harvest (which is what i face quite a bit and if you are already in a decrion you will at least have one unit of 3 in that formation more than likely.)
But math,
st3 1 0.166666667 0.166666667 0.333333333 0.055555556 36 0.5 0.027777778 72
st4 1 0.333333333 0.333333333 0.333333333 0.111111111 18 0.5 0.055555556 36
st5 1 0.5 0.5 0.333333333 0.166666667 12 0.5 0.083333333 24
st6 1 0.666666667 0.666666667 0.333333333 0.222222222 9 0.5 0.111111111 18
st7 1 0.833333333 0.833333333 0.333333333 0.277777778 7.2 0.5 0.138888889 14.4
st8 1 0.833333333 0.833333333 0.333333333 0.277777778 7.2 0.5 0.138888889 14.4
st9 1 0.833333333 0.833333333 0.333333333 0.277777778 7.2 0.5 0.138888889 14.4
st10 1 0.833333333 0.833333333 0.333333333 0.277777778 3.6 0.666666667 0.185185185 5.4

Bolds are numbers need to kill 1 the second bold is with decirions

Times that by whatever the unit size would be normally. im seeing a lot of full squads. others might see min 3 Edit: So not really 200 but still a dumb amount of hits alone.

 BlackArmour wrote:

TheUnyielding wrote:
After 10 games with my Crons against DE, Nids and Orks I think it's safe to say this is the most fun I have had with the crons in a long time. While they are more resilient and all my opponents needed to rework their armies to eventually tie the game (Only the Nids beat me), the new book is not unstoppable. If anyone is having troubles I would be more than willing to give advice.

Ok..... So ... Your defenition of not unstoppable is that after 10 games the best all but ONE of your opponents (who were "adjusting their lists" aka list tailoring for your army) could hope to muster was a tie.......boy that sounds like a lot of fun to play against.

This was my thoughts exactly. This would make it sound like there's a major balance issue.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Tir Mcdoul wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
LD is this stat that Space Marines essentially ignore, but it bites Necrons in the butt in the assault phase.

But when does that matter anymore? When you basically dont lose any models in CC.

Yes you do, you just need to be using the right models to assault with. Power weapons work wonders for taking away armor saves reducing them to only the RP save which makes them more likely to lose models, thus lose combat, thus break.

Except that one of there best melee formations Canoptek harvest has 3++ saves....with T5.... and 2 Wounds each with a maximum size of 6 per squad.

The discussion wasn't how to beat Wraiths, it was beating (and then sweeping) other units.

And yes, beating Wraiths in hand is possible, if a slow slog.

You know how you kill durable units like Wraiths the fastest? Pour as many dice into them as possible all at once. They WILL fail saves.

The Harvest formation is just so exceptional its mind boggling. The whole formation clocks in at nearly 370 points so about the same cost as a Imperial Knight. However the volume of fire it can absorb is substantially more. Ex. To kill a full squad of Wraiths you need to inflict 12 wounds that are unsaved by the Inv save or RP save. On average Using a STR 10 weapon hitting on 4s. (Insta death/Double Toughness lowers the RP to a 5+ and you only have to deal 1 w per wraith) you would have to fire on average of about 72 shots to kill that unit with str 10 weapons.

With STR 9-7(Ap doesn't matter vs these things at all) You will need on average 180 shots to kill a 6-man unit.

WIth STR 6 you will need 216 shots.

With STR 5 you will need 288 shots

With STR 4 you will need 432 shots.

With STR 2-3 you will need 864 Shots

Sorry but I don't think even massed gunline with guard can deal with these things.