ClockworkZion wrote:
How many shots to kill the Spyder alone?

 Desubot wrote:
What was its stats again?

T7 3 wounds and 3+ 4+++ if it RP?

st5 1 0.166666667 0.166666667 0.333333333 0.055555556 54 0.5 0.027777778 108
st6 1 0.333333333 0.333333333 0.333333333 0.111111111 27 0.5 0.055555556 54
st7 1 0.5 0.5 0.333333333 0.166666667 18 0.5 0.083333333 36
st8 1 0.666666667 0.666666667 0.333333333 0.222222222 13.5 0.5 0.111111111 27
st9 1 0.833333333 0.833333333 0.333333333 0.277777778 10.8 0.5 0.138888889 21.6
st10 1 0.833333333 0.833333333 0.333333333 0.277777778 10.8 0.5 0.138888889 21.6

Still needs a ton of shots (not counting cover or ap, just keeping it simple 3+ for now)

 ClockworkZion wrote:
How many shots to kill the Spyder alone?

 Desubot wrote:
Fair enough
st7 1 0.5 0.5 1 0.5 (6) 0.5 0.25 (12)
st8 1 0.666666667 0.666666667 1 0.666666667 (4.5) 0.5 0.333333333 (9)
st9 1 0.833333333 0.833333333 1 0.833333333 (3.6) 0.5 0.416666667 (7.2)
st10 1 0.833333333 0.833333333 1 0.833333333 (3.6) 0.5 0.416666667 (7.2)

Generally wont be at low AP under st7 so this be it without armor saves, this is assuming no cover because raisins.

Number of hits, second number with 4+++

Tir Mcdoul wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
How many shots to kill the Spyder alone?

Well lets is its going to be behind the Wraiths and likely with scarab bubble wrap too.

So looking a 3+ armor save 4+ Cover saver and a 4+ RP. T6 W3.

Again assuming BS 3 as a baseline.

AP 4+ AP 3- AP 3- And Ignore Cover
STR:
10-8: 45 30 15
7: 54 36 18
6: 72 48 24
5: 108 72 36
3-4: 216 144 72

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Fair enough
st7 1 0.5 0.5 1 0.5 (6) 0.5 0.25 (12)
st8 1 0.666666667 0.666666667 1 0.666666667 (4.5) 0.5 0.333333333 (9)
st9 1 0.833333333 0.833333333 1 0.833333333 (3.6) 0.5 0.416666667 (7.2)
st10 1 0.833333333 0.833333333 1 0.833333333 (3.6) 0.5 0.416666667 (7.2)

Generally wont be at low AP under st7 so this be it without armor saves, this is assuming no cover because raisins.

Number of hits, second number with 4+++

Still a lot better as even with a 5+ cover the Spyder isn't nearly as durable and in some cases (marker lights, orders, Vindicare Assassins) ignore cover leaving it with only the 4+.

And that's not looking into D weapons and void templates.

 Desubot wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Fair enough
st7 1 0.5 0.5 1 0.5 (6) 0.5 0.25 (12)
st8 1 0.666666667 0.666666667 1 0.666666667 (4.5) 0.5 0.333333333 (9)
st9 1 0.833333333 0.833333333 1 0.833333333 (3.6) 0.5 0.416666667 (7.2)
st10 1 0.833333333 0.833333333 1 0.833333333 (3.6) 0.5 0.416666667 (7.2)

Generally wont be at low AP under st7 so this be it without armor saves, this is assuming no cover because raisins.

Number of hits, second number with 4+++

Still a lot better as even with a 5+ cover the Spyder isn't nearly as durable and in some cases (marker lights, orders, Vindicare Assassins) ignore cover leaving it with only the 4+.

And that's not looking into D weapons and void templates.

Quite true though these are "Hits" not humber of shots. you will need to multiple them by your BS calculations. but with the decrion 4+++ it still very very hard unless you really tailor.

 BlackArmour wrote:
So basically we are still talking about needing to fire your entire army of points or dang near it to hurt a few hundred points. Mean while the rest of the necron army is killing you untouched? Lol that sure isnt my plan.

 Desubot wrote:
What was its stats again?

T7 3 wounds and 3+ 4+++ if it RP?

st5 1 0.166666667 0.166666667 0.333333333 0.055555556 54 0.5 0.027777778 108
st6 1 0.333333333 0.333333333 0.333333333 0.111111111 27 0.5 0.055555556 54
st7 1 0.5 0.5 0.333333333 0.166666667 18 0.5 0.083333333 36
st8 1 0.666666667 0.666666667 0.333333333 0.222222222 13.5 0.5 0.111111111 27
st9 1 0.833333333 0.833333333 0.333333333 0.277777778 10.8 0.5 0.138888889 21.6
st10 1 0.833333333 0.833333333 0.333333333 0.277777778 10.8 0.5 0.138888889 21.6

Still needs a ton of shots (not counting cover or ap, just keeping it simple 3+ for now)

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
What was its stats again?

T7 3 wounds and 3+ 4+++ if it RP?

st5 1 0.166666667 0.166666667 0.333333333 0.055555556 54 0.5 0.027777778 108
st6 1 0.333333333 0.333333333 0.333333333 0.111111111 27 0.5 0.055555556 54
st7 1 0.5 0.5 0.333333333 0.166666667 18 0.5 0.083333333 36
st8 1 0.666666667 0.666666667 0.333333333 0.222222222 13.5 0.5 0.111111111 27
st9 1 0.833333333 0.833333333 0.333333333 0.277777778 10.8 0.5 0.138888889 21.6
st10 1 0.833333333 0.833333333 0.333333333 0.277777778 10.8 0.5 0.138888889 21.6

Still needs a ton of shots (not counting cover or ap, just keeping it simple 3+ for now)

Pretty sure Spyders are T6, and that's what Battlescribe says...

50pts for a T6 3W MC? Seriously, GW... seriously.

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
What was its stats again?

T7 3 wounds and 3+ 4+++ if it RP?

st5 1 0.166666667 0.166666667 0.333333333 0.055555556 54 0.5 0.027777778 108
st6 1 0.333333333 0.333333333 0.333333333 0.111111111 27 0.5 0.055555556 54
st7 1 0.5 0.5 0.333333333 0.166666667 18 0.5 0.083333333 36
st8 1 0.666666667 0.666666667 0.333333333 0.222222222 13.5 0.5 0.111111111 27
st9 1 0.833333333 0.833333333 0.333333333 0.277777778 10.8 0.5 0.138888889 21.6
st10 1 0.833333333 0.833333333 0.333333333 0.277777778 10.8 0.5 0.138888889 21.6

Still needs a ton of shots (not counting cover or ap, just keeping it simple 3+ for now)

Pretty sure Spyders are T6, and that's what Battlescribe says...

50pts for a T6 3W MC? Seriously, GW... seriously.

Kangodo wrote:
With a low BS/WS and a low # of attacks to balance it out.
I've never heard anyone complain that Spyders are too strong.

KurtAngle2 wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
With a low BS/WS and a low # of attacks to balance it out.
I've never heard anyone complain that Spyders are too strong.

Tervigon and other Tyranid's crap MCs cost 170+ points for those WS/BS of 3.
150 points nets you 9 T6 3+ wounds on a MC unit

KurtAngle2 wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
With a low BS/WS and a low # of attacks to balance it out.
I've never heard anyone complain that Spyders are too strong.

Tervigon and other Tyranid's crap MCs cost 170+ points for those WS/BS of 3.
150 points nets you 9 T6 3+ wounds on a MC unit

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Tervigon and other Tyranid's crap MCs cost 170+ points for those WS/BS of 3.
150 points nets you 9 T6 3+ wounds on a MC unit

 ClockworkZion wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
With a low BS/WS and a low # of attacks to balance it out.
I've never heard anyone complain that Spyders are too strong.

Tervigon and other Tyranid's crap MCs cost 170+ points for those WS/BS of 3.
150 points nets you 9 T6 3+ wounds on a MC unit

But the Harvest can only take a single Spyder.

col_impact wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
With a low BS/WS and a low # of attacks to balance it out.
I've never heard anyone complain that Spyders are too strong.

Tervigon and other Tyranid's crap MCs cost 170+ points for those WS/BS of 3.
150 points nets you 9 T6 3+ wounds on a MC unit

But the Harvest can only take a single Spyder.

Very debatable. Popular opinion is that is how to play it, but RAW supports adding additional spyders via the options on the army entry list. Check YMDC for rules debate.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Fun Fact: Being in melee does NOT prevent you from holding an objective. If an Objective Secured unit charges a non-Objective Sercured unit and manages to get within 3" of the objective they count as holding it as they can only be contested by another Objective Secured unit..

Kangodo wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Tervigon and other Tyranid's crap MCs cost 170+ points for those WS/BS of 3.
150 points nets you 9 T6 3+ wounds on a MC unit

And for those 120+ points you get:
-Shooting Attack
-Double the wounds and attacks
-Counter Attack-aura
-Psyker
-Termagant-spawn-spam
-Synapse
-Way better upgrades.

It's not a good thing to compare two specific models, there is a lot of context involved that you shouldn't ignore.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

So even easier to kill then.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:



Now we're getting somewhere.

"Enough of something": So your idea is to block off the objective in a 360 degree arc, that no amount of shooting can penetrate on any side to allow a charge to within 3" iof the objective? May I humbly suggest that while this is certainly wise to do, it is also very unlikely to work unless the enemy is substantially weakened by this time in the game. Moreover, this also assumes that you are NOT weakeend to the point of not being able to cover it in 360 degrees.

It's one of several options you have, not the only one. That said, I did not say that it was immune to being penetrated, only that it requires an opponent to devote resources to doing so as opposed to being able to freely skip in and take it, which weakens the strength of the tactic that so often relies on being able to run in and take/contest things without devoting much in the way of effort to it.

Likewise, again, lots of vehicle & monstrous Creature units can "body block" rather well, preventing an opponent from getting within 3" simply through their physical size (or making it really awkward to try and find the sliver that's within 3" and not within an inch of the enemy) once you sit them on an objective.

You see the problem right? Both of those assumptions is a LOT of assumption. Ironically you then point out the answer to this tactic yourself: Wyverns, Night Spinners, Shadow Weavers, and the miriad of barrage weaponry that can clear the way for units to get there with run moves, jetbike moves, Flat out moves and the list goes on.

Absolutely you can, but again, this then removes much of the value of the "cheap mobile objective spoiler" in the first place, because again, it work best when you don't have to devote effort (or much effort) to supporting it. Otherwise often a more conventional unit if often of greater value as it can assist in clearing the objective.

You assert that Obsec can be minimized by the fact that it often comes on "not he heartiest of chassis" so to speak. Yet I would point out to you that even a Tactical marine is a 3+ save and standing ones ground is the only prerequisite for taking the objecive. Assuming it will always be a 3 man Jetbike squad isn't really a fair assumption at all.

it's the most common that I can recall encountering and reading about in the "cheap, mobile, kept in reserve/hiding" role, and usually the most effective given the tremendous speed. Hence why I went with that.

Now if that happens to BE the case then you have something. But as a general concept, I dont think you can take away from Objective secured solely on the basis that they MIGHT be non-fearless three man quads.

I'm not, but I was addressing the idea of the "cheap, mobile, kept in reserve/hiding" ObSec unit, which is exactly what these often are. Fearless is nice, but again, if the unit doesn't have a lot of "meat", it may be moot and dead in one round once it comes into view.

If we're talking heavier, beefier units, and Marines, they won't have quite the same ability to dash across the board to objectives the way the Jetbikes do, and because of their investment, often will have to spend game time contributing to fighting instead of just sitting on an objective. SM bikers are fast, but not always Troops, and are often employed in a front line role that sees them priority targeted anyway, while Jump Marines and Tac squads lack the same sort of speed (well, they lack everything compared to Bikes, but we'll that the overbuffed-bikers topic to another thread).

In Maelstrom i disagree. Maelstrom missions are VERY loody affairs as a rule because you expose yourself to anger in ways and in turns you dont in Eternal War missions. An Objective secured force can pe-emptively move to positions (again as i mentioned in my previous post, if it is fast enough) and deny the opponent any chance at the objective point. Just by scattering they can rob the eenmy of precious points and the Maelstrom game really does hurt you if you have to wait a turn or two to get those objective points while the opponent freely scores them.

They absolutely can, but this usually relies on speedy MSU, and that's not something Necrons do well with their units that could possibly gain Objective Secured.

This isnt news. I think you are not accounting for someone who will pre-emptively take objective points. Aggression is rewarded big trime because its not just a killing game. dying doesnt mean as much in Maelstrom. ONE MAN in a units leftovers can score on you AND deny you again! Just one. Really consider the import of that truth. So the danger of losing 9 out of ten dudes is still worth it to score something and deny the enemy for a whole other round. It's a great trade off. Even when exposed by your position, only some of the enemy can get at you. Will it be enough? Well thats why we play the game isnt it?

Yes, one guy left can make the difference. But that's a highly situational example, most of the time an opponent is going to do their damndest to kill off that one last guy and is usually successful. Can that pull through? Sure. I've had a few games where that has pulled through or worked against me in my 40k experiences. But they're memorable exceptions or games where both sides have been so savaged as to have almost nothing left anyway, or, more usually when we're talking about a lone survivor on an objective, the objectives in question weren't contested in the first place (as otherwise it's far less likely that that one model would be left alive), and thus ObSec would play no role.

Again, not saying that ObSec is useless, but that it's not the must-have ability it's sometimes made out to be, and it's not going to be the "downfall" of Decurion armies as was earlier asserted.

 Desubot wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

So even easier to kill then.

Shift the numbers up, though easier, its hardly a sure thing.

Edit: It IS 1 spider.

Ultimately speaking the Wraiths dont really need the spider to be super functional. they will still be able to nullify your biggest threats (besides Knights and GoI stars) and still take a substantial amount of good shooting to deal with outside of CC. and in CC only the most dedicated unit will be able to deal with them.

col_impact wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
With a low BS/WS and a low # of attacks to balance it out.
I've never heard anyone complain that Spyders are too strong.

Tervigon and other Tyranid's crap MCs cost 170+ points for those WS/BS of 3.
150 points nets you 9 T6 3+ wounds on a MC unit

But the Harvest can only take a single Spyder.

Very debatable. Popular opinion is that is how to play it, but RAW supports adding additional spyders via the options on the army entry list. Check YMDC for rules debate.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

So even easier to kill then.

Shift the numbers up, though easier, its hardly a sure thing.

Edit: It IS 1 spider.

Ultimately speaking the Wraiths dont really need the spider to be super functional. they will still be able to nullify your biggest threats (besides Knights and GoI stars) and still take a substantial amount of good shooting to deal with outside of CC. and in CC only the most dedicated unit will be able to deal with them.

Too true regarding the Spyder, but the point I've been trying to make is that the army is hardly "unbeatable" just because of the formation and even the formation has weakpoints. Heck even if you can't beat the Wraiths in melee tarpitting them for a long time decreases their effectiveness and allows the rest of your army to function.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 BlackArmour wrote:
So basically we are still talking about needing to fire your entire army of points or dang near it to hurt a few hundred points. Mean while the rest of the necron army is killing you untouched? Lol that sure isnt my plan.

Yeah, its not that bad. But what is your plan to deal with them?