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 Jancoran wrote:


Well it appears here that you have conceded to me on most of these points, followed by a statement such as "but...". I think it doesn't matter.

You seem to be seeking validation from any sort of concession, rather than looking at the actual points I'm trying to make. I noted the issues in my earlier post and simply reiterated many of them again. For instance, in my earlier post I did note that you can clear enough of a unit to get in within 3" if it's body blocking, but that said effort removed a lot of the utility of the MSU ObSec unit since they're often meant to be somewhat unsupported spoiler units.

The point is that Objective secured handles all the concerns you mentioned. Even if you body block, consolidation moves happen. Even though this or that "reduces the value" of this or that: so what?

The point was simply that ObSec isn't the mighty strategic weakness some were making it out to be and there's a number of ways to mitigate it. Many, if not most players, will not have huge numbers of speedy MSU ObSec units. If you build an army specifically around exploiting ObSec, it's much more powerful sure, but for most armies, they're not built around utilizing ObSec like that, and thus it's doesn't play the gigantic role some think it does.

Thats called a meta change. Adjust and be on with it.

Oh look, another unnecessary L2P comment...you seem to keep thinking I'm trying to argue that ObSec is worthless, and I'm not saying that.

Also, i never made a statement that having no objective secured was THE downfall.

And my original post on the entire matter was in response to another poster directly calling it such, which is primarily all I've been arguing against.

You will absolutely feel the lack of it against me. I don't see any way that this wouldn't happen. I don't mind someone going without. in fact i encourage it...in my enemies. But in Eternal War and Maelstrom both, those who have objective secured units and who apply them at games end are going to make your journey an uphill one. maybe you still win but it will be in spite of the lack, not because of it.

Well I guess here is where we differ. I've never found it to be a consistently reliable mechanic that routinely makes or breaks games, and looking at a number of Battle Reports, far more often than not, it doesn't play a dominant role in determining the victor in the majority of games. It can, but isn't indispensable.

I'll leave off on this particular discussion point here.

 Desubot wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

So even easier to kill then.

Shift the numbers up, though easier, its hardly a sure thing.

Edit: It IS 1 spider.

Ultimately speaking the Wraiths dont really need the spider to be super functional. they will still be able to nullify your biggest threats (besides Knights and GoI stars) and still take a substantial amount of good shooting to deal with outside of CC. and in CC only the most dedicated unit will be able to deal with them.

Too true regarding the Spyder, but the point I've been trying to make is that the army is hardly "unbeatable" just because of the formation and even the formation has weakpoints. Heck even if you can't beat the Wraiths in melee tarpitting them for a long time decreases their effectiveness and allows the rest of your army to function.

While true you can "win games" against them, it is Nearly impossible to kill them (table them) in the majority of there lists. (asides from obvious troll lists like all air or whatnot) the amount of damage needed to get rid of the ENTIRE army is insane. no army is this durable through there entire book.

and ether way they have become incredibly boring to play. (My turn, i shoot all da things, you only remove 3 models....sigh your turn)

Yes, Crons ARE durable, but they don't have many teeth. Keep those they have (in their list because the Reclamation Legion pulls a fair amount of points to start and fills their army pretty quick) tied up (or manage to kill them) and the rest of the army isn't that threatening.

Also make sure you know their rules, like the fact that only the Reclamation Legion gets the re-roll 1's on RP if 12" of the Overlord.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

So even easier to kill then.

Shift the numbers up, though easier, its hardly a sure thing.

Edit: It IS 1 spider.

Ultimately speaking the Wraiths dont really need the spider to be super functional. they will still be able to nullify your biggest threats (besides Knights and GoI stars) and still take a substantial amount of good shooting to deal with outside of CC. and in CC only the most dedicated unit will be able to deal with them.

Too true regarding the Spyder, but the point I've been trying to make is that the army is hardly "unbeatable" just because of the formation and even the formation has weakpoints. Heck even if you can't beat the Wraiths in melee tarpitting them for a long time decreases their effectiveness and allows the rest of your army to function.

While true you can "win games" against them, it is Nearly impossible to kill them (table them) in the majority of there lists. (asides from obvious troll lists like all air or whatnot) the amount of damage needed to get rid of the ENTIRE army is insane. no army is this durable through there entire book.

and ether way they have become incredibly boring to play. (My turn, i shoot all da things, you only remove 3 models....sigh your turn)

Yes, Crons ARE durable, but they don't have many teeth. Keep those they have (in their list because the Reclamation Legion pulls a fair amount of points to start and fills their army pretty quick) tied up (or manage to kill them) and the rest of the army isn't that threatening.

Also make sure you know their rules, like the fact that only the Reclamation Legion gets the re-roll 1's on RP if 12" of the Overlord.

...... Im not sure if the teeth thing is serious or not, heavy desroyers, st10 large blasts, gauss weapons that can hurt the toughest vehicle or MC, tesla guns that can cause tons of hits and well wraiths just laugh at the no teeth thing.

 BlackArmour wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

So even easier to kill then.

Shift the numbers up, though easier, its hardly a sure thing.

Edit: It IS 1 spider.

Ultimately speaking the Wraiths dont really need the spider to be super functional. they will still be able to nullify your biggest threats (besides Knights and GoI stars) and still take a substantial amount of good shooting to deal with outside of CC. and in CC only the most dedicated unit will be able to deal with them.

Too true regarding the Spyder, but the point I've been trying to make is that the army is hardly "unbeatable" just because of the formation and even the formation has weakpoints. Heck even if you can't beat the Wraiths in melee tarpitting them for a long time decreases their effectiveness and allows the rest of your army to function.

While true you can "win games" against them, it is Nearly impossible to kill them (table them) in the majority of there lists. (asides from obvious troll lists like all air or whatnot) the amount of damage needed to get rid of the ENTIRE army is insane. no army is this durable through there entire book.

and ether way they have become incredibly boring to play. (My turn, i shoot all da things, you only remove 3 models....sigh your turn)

Yes, Crons ARE durable, but they don't have many teeth. Keep those they have (in their list because the Reclamation Legion pulls a fair amount of points to start and fills their army pretty quick) tied up (or manage to kill them) and the rest of the army isn't that threatening.

Also make sure you know their rules, like the fact that only the Reclamation Legion gets the re-roll 1's on RP if 12" of the Overlord.

...... Im not sure if the teeth thing is serious or not, heavy desroyers, st10 large blasts, gauss weapons that can hurt the toughest vehicle or MC, tesla guns that can cause tons of hits and well wraiths just laugh at the no teeth thing.

Yes you can list everything in the book but how much can you actually put into a list 1.5k list? 1850? 2000?

Just because you can name it doesn't mean it'll all be there at the same time.

Well to be fair they are basiclly better marines than marines.

a Butt load of bolters that can wound past 8, and strip HPs like no ones business,

I forget what those tomb blade speeders things have but it ignores cover which is excellent for anti pathfinders and troops.

The Wraiths are basically in close combat assault cannons which are nothing to laugh at.

Im not sure what else we will see but in generally besides from Grav weapons they do seem to have plenty of painful basic weapons. (above we will probably see quite a lot of at least)

I dont know how to feel about the tesla yet. i dont feel the jinking nerf will hurt it as bad as people thing, though the price point change might be otherwise (Abarge)

Then you could say that about everybook. Most lists will put wraiths in and they have pleanty of teeth. So do their basic troops, who are durable enough to keep dishing it out While most armies that arent fast have to worry about the wraiths

 BlackArmour wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 BlackArmour wrote:
So basically we are still talking about needing to fire your entire army of points or dang near it to hurt a few hundred points. Mean while the rest of the necron army is killing you untouched? Lol that sure isnt my plan.

Yeah, its not that bad. But what is your plan to deal with them?

Die quickly and move on to the next game :-D. In all seriousness i rarely play games under 2000 points and normally more, with that in mind my BAs have a chance to alpha strike before necrons can kill me then spend my time playing hit n run on wraiths. My plans below 2000 points have yet to be tested so cant say theyll work. Ill figure that out soon enough.

Blood Angels are pretty strong from what I've seen. You shouldn't have too much of an issue.

 BlackArmour wrote:
Then you could say that about everybook. Most lists will put wraiths in and they have pleanty of teeth. So do their basic troops, who are durable enough to keep dishing it out While most armies that arent fast have to worry about the wraiths

Exactly. The Decurion really doesn't do much except give the Necrons the staying power and feel that they've always had in the lore but never had on the table. They aren't unstoppable and they have weaknesses and crying about how good they are at beating your current list is silly.

I mean seriously what happened to the mentality of trying to keep a generally balanced list and learning to take an opponent apart by leveraging your strengths against that codex's weaknesses?

Or did we just outright give that up when 6th hit?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
With a low BS/WS and a low # of attacks to balance it out.
I've never heard anyone complain that Spyders are too strong.

Tervigon and other Tyranid's crap MCs cost 170+ points for those WS/BS of 3.
150 points nets you 9 T6 3+ wounds on a MC unit

But the Harvest can only take a single Spyder.

Very debatable. Popular opinion is that is how to play it, but RAW supports adding additional spyders via the options on the army entry list. Check YMDC for rules debate.

Scarabs says "1 unit of Scarabs", Wraiths say "1 unit of Wraiths" but the Spyder says "1 Spyder".

So unless GW erratas it so we can take a unit of Spyders, right now I don't know anyone who'd argue that it'd "1 unit of Spyders".

To briefly sum up the issues involved . . .

The core problem is neither side can prove that it is "1 [unit of canoptek spyders of unit composition] canoptek spyder " or "1 canoptek spyder [model]." The formation rules are very specific in that they always refer to units and army entry lists and the hardcopy BRB even specifies the page of the army entry list.

So, basically strict RAW is that it is a unit of spyders we are talking about since the formation rules specify that and there is nothing solid overriding that specification.

People want to see the popular RAI (that it is 1 canoptek spyder model) as RAW because the new necrons are strong and both necron players and non-necron players are welcoming the nerf.

However, those who want to call that RAW are being wholly inconsistent and applying a RAW approach falsely. They can no more prove that it is "1 canoptek spyder [model]" than the other side can prove "1 [unit of canoptek] spyders" and in the case of nothing able to be advanced logically of substance, the specificity that we are always dealing with units when we are dealing with formations that is found quite conclusively and unequivocally in the formation rules wins out.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Exactly. The Decurion really doesn't do much except give the Necrons the staying power and feel that they've always had in the lore but never had on the table. ?

Quoted for truth.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 BlackArmour wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 BlackArmour wrote:
So basically we are still talking about needing to fire your entire army of points or dang near it to hurt a few hundred points. Mean while the rest of the necron army is killing you untouched? Lol that sure isnt my plan.

Yeah, its not that bad. But what is your plan to deal with them?

Die quickly and move on to the next game :-D. In all seriousness i rarely play games under 2000 points and normally more, with that in mind my BAs have a chance to alpha strike before necrons can kill me then spend my time playing hit n run on wraiths. My plans below 2000 points have yet to be tested so cant say theyll work. Ill figure that out soon enough.

Blood Angels are pretty strong from what I've seen. You shouldn't have too much of an issue.

In large point games i agree, alpha striking units combined with pod dropping 2x or 4x melta per 5 man ASM squad to kill vevehicles. Also with the angels fury also being obj sec. Yea i agree. The problem is that tactic doesnt work really in sub 2000 point games Due to it being too much of a tax.

I will agree with clockwork in regards to they do not have that many teeth consider this....To field a reclamation legion with no upgrades using the bare minimum model requirement cost 479 points that is with literal no upgrades no war scythes or ignore cover or even a resurrection orb. Now in order to field that Strength 10 AP 1 weapon you mentioned as in the Doomsday ark using the Decurian detachment you require a bare minimum of of 410 points If you are playing a 1000 point game that is almost your entire army right there. Is there survivability annoying? Absolutely and me being a necron player I even find it annoying, but the fact remains you are paying a little bit to field units using the Decurian detachment. Granted the canoptek harvest formation only requires 230 for no upgrades and that is 3 T6 S6 3++ and 4+++ models still pretty damn good I will admit.

If we really want to talk about Necron cheese that tomb citadel is still a thing from forgeworld....Throw your decurian detachment on there and now every model on the formation gains a 3++ against shooting attacks re rolls reanimation protocols of 1 as long as they are on the tomb citadel all for the low low low price of 300 points. That being said this is shenanigans no doubt about it and flipping the table here would probably be the only way to make sure you don't ever lose to this monstrosity ever again.

 Sabor wrote:
I will agree with clockwork in regards to they do not have that many teeth consider this....To field a reclamation legion with no upgrades using the bare minimum model requirement cost 479 points that is with literal no upgrades no war scythes or ignore cover or even a resurrection orb. Now in order to field that Strength 10 AP 1 weapon you mentioned as in the Doomsday ark using the Decurian detachment you require a bare minimum of of 410 points If you are playing a 1000 point game that is almost your entire army right there. Is there survivability annoying? Absolutely and me being a necron player I even find it annoying, but the fact remains you are paying a little bit to field units using the Decurian detachment. Granted the canoptek harvest formation only requires 230 for no upgrades and that is 3 T6 S6 3++ and 4+++ models still pretty damn good I will admit.

Im pretty sure the Doom ark isnt really all that and a bag of chips considering Vindicators are not seen too special ether (though i personally like em (both of them))

What about the destroyer cult? i remember them being decent now.

As well as the stalker one being able to buff around quite a bit for everyone.

Edit: It seems worth it run the duran duran formation with two douche canoes for the warriors to make a strong base of objective holders, two min Harvests for Anti threat threat and general annoyance, and a D cult for the hammer.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 BlackArmour wrote:
Then you could say that about everybook. Most lists will put wraiths in and they have pleanty of teeth. So do their basic troops, who are durable enough to keep dishing it out While most armies that arent fast have to worry about the wraiths

Exactly. The Decurion really doesn't do much except give the Necrons the staying power and feel that they've always had in the lore but never had on the table. They aren't unstoppable and they have weaknesses and crying about how good they are at beating your current list is silly.

I mean seriously what happened to the mentality of trying to keep a generally balanced list and learning to take an opponent apart by leveraging your strengths against that codex's weaknesses?

Or did we just outright give that up when 6th hit?

The problem is that they really don't have a defined weakness. Previous editions they lacked a truly capable CC unit that was reasonably priced. They now have a pretty severely under costed one that can easily stand up to double its points cost. Before you could deny them there RP by focus firing there units until there were all gone. Pretty much all their downsides are gone now.

Now if you think they have weaknesses then please explain to the rest of the class how you would counter them? Cause right now they are an army that is just a bit too durrable.

 Desubot wrote:


Im pretty sure the Doom ark isnt really all that and a bag of chips considering Vindicators are not seen too special ether (though i personally like em (both of them))

What about the destroyer cult? i remember them being decent now.

As well as the stalker one being able to buff around quite a bit for everyone.

I agree doomsday ark is not really all that special (though i love fielding it) but sure let me crunch some numbers. The destroyer cult requires a minimum of 470 points to use (you have to take destroyers in units of 3 to field this). The Judicator battalion being slightly better requiring a minimum of 405 points to field (keep in mind this is with no upgrades). So if you wish to field 1 triarch stalker using the decurian detachment you have to take the reclamation legion which was 479 then another 405. I like how GW made it so we can't take a single squad of one unit without taking another squad of something else however it puts a more real restriction on the army without actually forcing it.

 Sabor wrote:

 Desubot wrote:


Im pretty sure the Doom ark isnt really all that and a bag of chips considering Vindicators are not seen too special ether (though i personally like em (both of them))

What about the destroyer cult? i remember them being decent now.

As well as the stalker one being able to buff around quite a bit for everyone.

I agree doomsday ark is not really all that special (though i love fielding it) but sure let me crunch some numbers. The destroyer cult requires a minimum of 470 points to use (you have to take destroyers in units of 3 to field this). The Judicator battalion being slightly better requiring a minimum of 405 points to field (keep in mind this is with no upgrades). So if you wish to field 1 triarch stalker using the decurian detachment you have to take the reclamation legion which was 479 then another 405. I like how GW made it so we can't take a single squad of one unit without taking another squad of something else however it puts a more real restriction on the army without actually forcing it.

I am completely okay with having to bring other things, because it gives my army a more fluffy feel, and the benefits are pretty cool as well. Like, I only have 3 Destroyers currently, but I want 6 more so I can run a Destroyer Cult. Seems pretty legit to me.

Tir Mcdoul wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 BlackArmour wrote:
Then you could say that about everybook. Most lists will put wraiths in and they have pleanty of teeth. So do their basic troops, who are durable enough to keep dishing it out While most armies that arent fast have to worry about the wraiths

Exactly. The Decurion really doesn't do much except give the Necrons the staying power and feel that they've always had in the lore but never had on the table. They aren't unstoppable and they have weaknesses and crying about how good they are at beating your current list is silly.

I mean seriously what happened to the mentality of trying to keep a generally balanced list and learning to take an opponent apart by leveraging your strengths against that codex's weaknesses?

Or did we just outright give that up when 6th hit?

The problem is that they really don't have a defined weakness. Previous editions they lacked a truly capable CC unit that was reasonably priced. They now have a pretty severely under costed one that can easily stand up to double its points cost. Before you could deny them there RP by focus firing there units until there were all gone. Pretty much all their downsides are gone now.

Now if you think they have weaknesses then please explain to the rest of the class how you would counter them? Cause right now they are an army that is just a bit too durrable.

You can still beat them in CC, you just need to dedicate either an actually CC unit or work at it longer to make sure it happens. Just because they don't fold like Tau do (who can be much better at shooting than Necrons) when you go to punch them doesn't mean that it isn't still a weakness.

The army can be beaten, we just need to stop assuming that when the meta shifts we shouldn't have to.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Tir Mcdoul wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 BlackArmour wrote:
Then you could say that about everybook. Most lists will put wraiths in and they have pleanty of teeth. So do their basic troops, who are durable enough to keep dishing it out While most armies that arent fast have to worry about the wraiths

Exactly. The Decurion really doesn't do much except give the Necrons the staying power and feel that they've always had in the lore but never had on the table. They aren't unstoppable and they have weaknesses and crying about how good they are at beating your current list is silly.

I mean seriously what happened to the mentality of trying to keep a generally balanced list and learning to take an opponent apart by leveraging your strengths against that codex's weaknesses?

Or did we just outright give that up when 6th hit?

The problem is that they really don't have a defined weakness. Previous editions they lacked a truly capable CC unit that was reasonably priced. They now have a pretty severely under costed one that can easily stand up to double its points cost. Before you could deny them there RP by focus firing there units until there were all gone. Pretty much all their downsides are gone now.

Now if you think they have weaknesses then please explain to the rest of the class how you would counter them? Cause right now they are an army that is just a bit too durrable.

You can still beat them in CC, you just need to dedicate either an actually CC unit or work at it longer to make sure it happens. Just because they don't fold like Tau do (who can be much better at shooting than Necrons) when you go to punch them doesn't mean that it isn't still a weakness.

The army can be beaten, we just need to stop assuming that when the meta shifts we shouldn't have to.

Do you want me to show you the number of how a 500+ point Bike command squad fairs vs Wraiths. Or better yet you pick the cc unit.

 Sabor wrote:

 Desubot wrote:


Im pretty sure the Doom ark isnt really all that and a bag of chips considering Vindicators are not seen too special ether (though i personally like em (both of them))

What about the destroyer cult? i remember them being decent now.

As well as the stalker one being able to buff around quite a bit for everyone.

I agree doomsday ark is not really all that special (though i love fielding it) but sure let me crunch some numbers. The destroyer cult requires a minimum of 470 points to use (you have to take destroyers in units of 3 to field this). The Judicator battalion being slightly better requiring a minimum of 405 points to field (keep in mind this is with no upgrades). So if you wish to field 1 triarch stalker using the decurian detachment you have to take the reclamation legion which was 479 then another 405. I like how GW made it so we can't take a single squad of one unit without taking another squad of something else however it puts a more real restriction on the army without actually forcing it.

So if its similar to the last edition (i dont have the new book) then its about 540 to get 9 Heavy Gauss cannons in a JSJ unit with multi wounds and Res protection Sounds Very promising as a hammer units

As well at sub 1000 points there is always the option to play as a normal Cad and they are still fairly strong over all.

Tir Mcdoul wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Tir Mcdoul wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 BlackArmour wrote:
Then you could say that about everybook. Most lists will put wraiths in and they have pleanty of teeth. So do their basic troops, who are durable enough to keep dishing it out While most armies that arent fast have to worry about the wraiths

Exactly. The Decurion really doesn't do much except give the Necrons the staying power and feel that they've always had in the lore but never had on the table. They aren't unstoppable and they have weaknesses and crying about how good they are at beating your current list is silly.

I mean seriously what happened to the mentality of trying to keep a generally balanced list and learning to take an opponent apart by leveraging your strengths against that codex's weaknesses?

Or did we just outright give that up when 6th hit?

The problem is that they really don't have a defined weakness. Previous editions they lacked a truly capable CC unit that was reasonably priced. They now have a pretty severely under costed one that can easily stand up to double its points cost. Before you could deny them there RP by focus firing there units until there were all gone. Pretty much all their downsides are gone now.

Now if you think they have weaknesses then please explain to the rest of the class how you would counter them? Cause right now they are an army that is just a bit too durrable.

You can still beat them in CC, you just need to dedicate either an actually CC unit or work at it longer to make sure it happens. Just because they don't fold like Tau do (who can be much better at shooting than Necrons) when you go to punch them doesn't mean that it isn't still a weakness.

The army can be beaten, we just need to stop assuming that when the meta shifts we shouldn't have to.

Do you want me to show you the number of how a 500+ point Bike command squad fairs vs Wraiths. Or better yet you pick the cc unit.

Everyone seems to be missing the point, we're already at the cost of a DEDICATED CLOSE COMBAT still struggling with killing a TROOP.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

You can still beat them in CC, you just need to dedicate either an actually CC unit or work at it longer to make sure it happens. Just because they don't fold like Tau do (who can be much better at shooting than Necrons) when you go to punch them doesn't mean that it isn't still a weakness.

The army can be beaten, we just need to stop assuming that when the meta shifts we shouldn't have to.

Unfortunately for me i dont really want to have to buy GK just to get mass force weapons to deal with wraiths or warriors.

As well what General purpose CC units do regular Marine players have?

 Desubot wrote:

 Sabor wrote:

 Desubot wrote:


Im pretty sure the Doom ark isnt really all that and a bag of chips considering Vindicators are not seen too special ether (though i personally like em (both of them))

What about the destroyer cult? i remember them being decent now.

As well as the stalker one being able to buff around quite a bit for everyone.

I agree doomsday ark is not really all that special (though i love fielding it) but sure let me crunch some numbers. The destroyer cult requires a minimum of 470 points to use (you have to take destroyers in units of 3 to field this). The Judicator battalion being slightly better requiring a minimum of 405 points to field (keep in mind this is with no upgrades). So if you wish to field 1 triarch stalker using the decurian detachment you have to take the reclamation legion which was 479 then another 405. I like how GW made it so we can't take a single squad of one unit without taking another squad of something else however it puts a more real restriction on the army without actually forcing it.

So if its similar to the last edition (i dont have the new book) then its about 540 to get 9 Heavy Gauss cannons in a JSJ unit with multi wounds and Res protection Sounds Very promising as a hammer units

As well at sub 1000 points there is always the option to play as a normal Cad and they are still fairly strong over all.

They actually got slightly changed, heavy destroyers are now only 50 points, but you can only field one per destroyer squad. However you can take a single unit of them as a separate unit in addition to the base 3 destroyers and destroyer lord. So that equates to an additional 30 points for the base 3 units to get 3 strength 9 Ap2 shots or an extra 150 to field 3 of them as there own squad.

If anyone else has any other questions keep them coming!

Tir Mcdoul wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Tir Mcdoul wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 BlackArmour wrote:
Then you could say that about everybook. Most lists will put wraiths in and they have pleanty of teeth. So do their basic troops, who are durable enough to keep dishing it out While most armies that arent fast have to worry about the wraiths

Exactly. The Decurion really doesn't do much except give the Necrons the staying power and feel that they've always had in the lore but never had on the table. They aren't unstoppable and they have weaknesses and crying about how good they are at beating your current list is silly.

I mean seriously what happened to the mentality of trying to keep a generally balanced list and learning to take an opponent apart by leveraging your strengths against that codex's weaknesses?

Or did we just outright give that up when 6th hit?

The problem is that they really don't have a defined weakness. Previous editions they lacked a truly capable CC unit that was reasonably priced. They now have a pretty severely under costed one that can easily stand up to double its points cost. Before you could deny them there RP by focus firing there units until there were all gone. Pretty much all their downsides are gone now.

Now if you think they have weaknesses then please explain to the rest of the class how you would counter them? Cause right now they are an army that is just a bit too durrable.

You can still beat them in CC, you just need to dedicate either an actually CC unit or work at it longer to make sure it happens. Just because they don't fold like Tau do (who can be much better at shooting than Necrons) when you go to punch them doesn't mean that it isn't still a weakness.

The army can be beaten, we just need to stop assuming that when the meta shifts we shouldn't have to.

Do you want me to show you the number of how a 500+ point Bike command squad fairs vs Wraiths. Or better yet you pick the cc unit.

I've killed Wraiths in CC last week. I can even tell you what I was using:

Jacobus
Priest (Power Maul, Litanies of Faith)
3 Crusaders
4 Death Cult Assassins
1 Arco-Flagellant
1 Rhino
Total 310

But I can do you one better, I can make it even cheaper by replacing Jacobus (whose biggest benefit for the squad is that he gives it Counter-Attack) with a cheaper Priest

Priest (Power Maul, Litanies of Faith)
Priest (Power Maul, Melta Bomb)
3 Crusaders
4 Death Cult Assassins
1 Arco-Flagellant
1 Rhino
Total 255

Squad re-rolls all hits during the first round of combat (Hatred from Zealot), and gets to re-roll all to-wound rolls and saves (War Hymns). Durability comes from the squad being majority WS5 (Arco-Flagellant and Death Cults) and the majority of wounds get pushed to the Crusaders (Look Out Sir on a 2+ helps) who get a re-rollable 3++.

So that squad I took killed 2 Wraiths (the first died to my Exorcist's shooting on Turn 1 before he got RP) and 120 points of Scarabs over 4 player turns of combat (with my opponent charging me) before the Necron Overlord on a command barge finally showed and broke the squad.

So yeah, it can be done. If you're done crying about how it's impossible we can move on and be productive with our lives.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Quickjager wrote:
Everyone seems to be missing the point, we're already at the cost of a DEDICATED CLOSE COMBAT still struggling with killing a TROOP.

You can sweep them with less. Any wounds that you get in there brings them below Ld10 increases your chances of sweeping. You only really need 2-3 to die in the melee to sweep. Basically Terminators wouldn't be the best options to engage Warriors (since they can't sweep) but it can be done fairly easily.

Also I'm thinking that Thousand Sons might have a place in a CSM army finally because that AP3 means the models only getting a RP save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:
As well what General purpose CC units do regular Marine players have?

Hammernators.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Tir Mcdoul wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Tir Mcdoul wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 BlackArmour wrote:
Then you could say that about everybook. Most lists will put wraiths in and they have pleanty of teeth. So do their basic troops, who are durable enough to keep dishing it out While most armies that arent fast have to worry about the wraiths

Exactly. The Decurion really doesn't do much except give the Necrons the staying power and feel that they've always had in the lore but never had on the table. They aren't unstoppable and they have weaknesses and crying about how good they are at beating your current list is silly.

I mean seriously what happened to the mentality of trying to keep a generally balanced list and learning to take an opponent apart by leveraging your strengths against that codex's weaknesses?

Or did we just outright give that up when 6th hit?

The problem is that they really don't have a defined weakness. Previous editions they lacked a truly capable CC unit that was reasonably priced. They now have a pretty severely under costed one that can easily stand up to double its points cost. Before you could deny them there RP by focus firing there units until there were all gone. Pretty much all their downsides are gone now.

Now if you think they have weaknesses then please explain to the rest of the class how you would counter them? Cause right now they are an army that is just a bit too durrable.

You can still beat them in CC, you just need to dedicate either an actually CC unit or work at it longer to make sure it happens. Just because they don't fold like Tau do (who can be much better at shooting than Necrons) when you go to punch them doesn't mean that it isn't still a weakness.

The army can be beaten, we just need to stop assuming that when the meta shifts we shouldn't have to.

Do you want me to show you the number of how a 500+ point Bike command squad fairs vs Wraiths. Or better yet you pick the cc unit.

I've killed Wraiths in CC last week. I can even tell you what I was using:

Jacobus
Priest (Power Maul, Litanies of Faith)
3 Crusaders
4 Death Cult Assassins
1 Arco-Flagellant
1 Rhino
Total 310

But I can do you one better, I can make it even cheaper by replacing Jacobus (whose biggest benefit for the squad is that he gives it Counter-Attack) with a cheaper Priest

Priest (Power Maul, Litanies of Faith)
Priest (Power Maul, Melta Bomb)
3 Crusaders
4 Death Cult Assassins
1 Arco-Flagellant
1 Rhino
Total 255

Squad re-rolls all hits during the first round of combat (Hatred from Zealot), and gets to re-roll all to-wound rolls and saves (War Hymns). Durability comes from the squad being majority WS5 (Arco-Flagellant and Death Cults) and the majority of wounds get pushed to the Crusaders (Look Out Sir on a 2+ helps) who get a re-rollable 3++.

So that squad I took killed 2 Wraiths (the first died to my Exorcist's shooting on Turn 1 before he got RP) and 120 points of Scarabs over 4 player turns of combat (with my opponent charging me) before the Necron Overlord on a command barge finally showed and broke the squad.

So yeah, it can be done. If you're done crying about how it's impossible we can move on and be productive with our lives.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Quickjager wrote:
Everyone seems to be missing the point, we're already at the cost of a DEDICATED CLOSE COMBAT still struggling with killing a TROOP.

You can sweep them with less. Any wounds that you get in there brings them below Ld10 increases your chances of sweeping. You only really need 2-3 to die in the melee to sweep. Basically Terminators wouldn't be the best options to engage Warriors (since they can't sweep) but it can be done fairly easily.

Also I'm thinking that Thousand Sons might have a place in a CSM army finally because that AP3 means the models only getting a RP save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:
As well what General purpose CC units do regular Marine players have?

Hammernators.

Lets break those odds down why don't we.

1st Round of combat:

Init 5

Wraiths:
18 STR 6 attacks
9 hits
8.5 Wounds:

You will dump the wound on your crusders and likely lose all 3.

4 Death Cult assassins.
16 attacks
Round up and say 15 hits:
Round up and say 8 wounds:

1.3 wounds after saves

Priest
3 attacks
2.25 Hits
1.875 Wounds

.3 wounds after saves

Arco-Flagellant
5 attacks
4.4 hits
3.3 Wounds

.55 wounds after saves

Jacobus
5 Attacks:
3.75 hit
2 wounds

.33 wounds

Grand total: wounds after saves 2.48

Congrats on the first round of combat you got close to a stalemate. Unfotunately in the next round you don't have all your rerolls. And your still using a more expensive unit to ultimately lose.

Dont forget the priests ability to allow rerolls to wounds or reroll saves.

Yeah that math is garbage without taking into account War Hymns. For example, the 18 wraith attacks will kill a whopping 1.02 crusaders, not 3.

It also fails to account for Death Cults being Initiative 6.

FFS, if you're going to try to lie to me do it right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:
Dont forget the priests ability to allow rerolls to wounds or reroll saves.

With 2 Priests you get both as the War Hymns are per Priest. It's fecking magic.

And re-rolling all hits during the first round of combat too.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
It also fails to account for Death Cults being Initiative 6.

FFS, if you're going to try to lie to me do it right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:
Dont forget the priests ability to allow rerolls to wounds or reroll saves.

With 2 Priests you get both as the War Hymns are per Priest. It's fecking magic.

And re-rolling all hits during the first round of combat too.

Ok I missed the re-roll Saves as well as thought the DCA where Init 5 not 6. My mistake

However I did calculate the rerolls to hit and wound in.

Hmm was going to say your odds are only 58% chance of success for a war hymn but litanies makes it moot. Hmm

Definitely a solid CC unit. The rerollable 3++ is very nice. Yeah that could do it.

Only issue I see is that I will stop 1 squad of wraiths not multiple as it needs special characters and relics but deffinately a good start to counters.

Thanks for pointing it out.

Tir Mcdoul wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
It also fails to account for Death Cults being Initiative 6.

FFS, if you're going to try to lie to me do it right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:
Dont forget the priests ability to allow rerolls to wounds or reroll saves.

With 2 Priests you get both as the War Hymns are per Priest. It's fecking magic.

And re-rolling all hits during the first round of combat too.

Ok I missed the re-roll Saves as well as thought the DCA where Init 5 not 6. My mistake

However I did calculate the rerolls to hit and wound in.

Hmm was going to say your odds are only 58% chance of success for a war hymn but litanies makes it moot. Hmm

Definitely a solid CC unit. The rerollable 3++ is very nice. Yeah that could do it.

Only issue I see is that I will stop 1 squad of wraiths not multiple as it needs special characters and relics but deffinately a good start to counters.

Thanks for pointing it out.

Considering we pointed out the problem with running large numbers of Wraiths in the Decurion: namely how many points it runs. And the Battle Conclave runs less than you have to pay to run Wraiths.

And you can easily take two of these squads (one with Jacobus the other with Litanies and both with a generic priest as backup) for still less than the Harvest formations will run.

And I know it'll do it, because I did it.

It's a very strong CC unit despite being T3/S3 (which is it's biggest setback) and if it couldn't handle Wraiths I'd be pointing out why Wraiths are "totes bs". But they aren't. They're a good CC unit, but they're on part with other CC units in my book and their biggest boon is they're more durable to shooting than we're used to. I honestly feel that if people sat down with their books and their armies they could figure out something to counter, or at minimum, tarpit Wraiths enough to allow the rest of the army effective handle other threats appropriately.

Basically if you're having problems with Wraiths there are a few possibilities:

1. You're being cheated. Make sure you know how the Harvest is supposed to work.
2. Reevaluate what you're using to deal with the unit and consider other alternatives and how you can deal with them. You may have the right tools but not employing them properly.
3. Considering going back to the drawing board on your army or your tactics because you're doing something wrong.

Also, unless GW says otherwise, Wraiths go at I1 when charging into terrain (just like all the other beasts). Use that to your advantage.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Also, unless GW says otherwise, Wraiths go at I1 when charging into terrain (just like all the other beasts). Use that to your advantage.

Not with the change to Wraithflight