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 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Also, unless GW says otherwise, Wraiths go at I1 when charging into terrain (just like all the other beasts). Use that to your advantage.

Not with the change to Wraithflight

That doesn't contradict initiative penalties for the assault phase, just charge distance penalties.

Sorry, but unless it specifically mentions it (like the Flip Belts on Harlequins do) or we get an errata that says it does I'm not buying into the idea that just because it gets to go over things that it ignores initiative penalties.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Also, unless GW says otherwise, Wraiths go at I1 when charging into terrain (just like all the other beasts). Use that to your advantage.

Not with the change to Wraithflight

That doesn't contradict initiative penalties for the assault phase, just charge distance penalties.

Sorry, but unless it specifically mentions it (like the Flip Belts on Harlequins do) or we get an errata that says it does I'm not buying into the idea that just because it gets to go over things that it ignores initiative penalties.

You can buy personally into whatever you want, but RAW is clear and the burden is on you to prove otherwise.

col_impact wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Also, unless GW says otherwise, Wraiths go at I1 when charging into terrain (just like all the other beasts). Use that to your advantage.

Not with the change to Wraithflight

That doesn't contradict initiative penalties for the assault phase, just charge distance penalties.

Sorry, but unless it specifically mentions it (like the Flip Belts on Harlequins do) or we get an errata that says it does I'm not buying into the idea that just because it gets to go over things that it ignores initiative penalties.

You can buy personally into whatever you want, but RAW is clear and the burden is on you to prove otherwise.

RAW is NOT clear as clear RAW would say it specifically. So burden of proof is on you to prove where it specifically says that you get to ignore the initiative penalty.

Like I said, without a FAQ I won't be buying into this.

If you want to prove me wrong get GW to prove me wrong, but in the mean time drop it because you're not going to change my mind, and this isn't YMDC.

That's fine, but it was clear enough RAW for that thread to come to an end with the decision that Wraiths don't suffer the I penalty because they don't even move through the terrain that applies it.

Flip belts and Wraithflight function differently, one says you aren't slowed while the other says treat it as Open Ground, two very different things rules-wise.

However as this is not YMDC I'll refrain from going further.

ClockworkZion, you brought it up, it's hardly reasonable to expect other people to ignore it when you start telling people a likely incorrect interpretation of the rules.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Tir Mcdoul wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
It also fails to account for Death Cults being Initiative 6.

FFS, if you're going to try to lie to me do it right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:
Dont forget the priests ability to allow rerolls to wounds or reroll saves.

With 2 Priests you get both as the War Hymns are per Priest. It's fecking magic.

And re-rolling all hits during the first round of combat too.

Ok I missed the re-roll Saves as well as thought the DCA where Init 5 not 6. My mistake

However I did calculate the rerolls to hit and wound in.

Hmm was going to say your odds are only 58% chance of success for a war hymn but litanies makes it moot. Hmm

Definitely a solid CC unit. The rerollable 3++ is very nice. Yeah that could do it.

Only issue I see is that I will stop 1 squad of wraiths not multiple as it needs special characters and relics but deffinately a good start to counters.

Thanks for pointing it out.

Considering we pointed out the problem with running large numbers of Wraiths in the Decurion: namely how many points it runs. And the Battle Conclave runs less than you have to pay to run Wraiths.

And you can easily take two of these squads (one with Jacobus the other with Litanies and both with a generic priest as backup) for still less than the Harvest formations will run.

And I know it'll do it, because I did it.

It's a very strong CC unit despite being T3/S3 (which is it's biggest setback) and if it couldn't handle Wraiths I'd be pointing out why Wraiths are "totes bs". But they aren't. They're a good CC unit, but they're on part with other CC units in my book and their biggest boon is they're more durable to shooting than we're used to. I honestly feel that if people sat down with their books and their armies they could figure out something to counter, or at minimum, tarpit Wraiths enough to allow the rest of the army effective handle other threats appropriately.

Basically if you're having problems with Wraiths there are a few possibilities:

1. You're being cheated. Make sure you know how the Harvest is supposed to work.
2. Reevaluate what you're using to deal with the unit and consider other alternatives and how you can deal with them. You may have the right tools but not employing them properly.
3. Considering going back to the drawing board on your army or your tactics because you're doing something wrong.

Also, unless GW says otherwise, Wraiths go at I1 when charging into terrain (just like all the other beasts). Use that to your advantage.

mk , so Ignoring the fact that there are more than 1 Necron player who have posted the results of multiple battles in which people tailored their lists to fight them and ...... Failed.

how about you throw down some lists with the other 7th books

because I have sat down with my book and spent hours rolling out lists and only with HEAVY tailoring and pulling in allies do I come up with lists that stand a chance, and those lists are awful against anything else.

your best argument has been they don't have teeth, everyone else has pointed out that wraiths in fact do have those teeth and you're forced to deal with them because they close the gap way too quickly. their Basic troops ALSO have teeth considering they can kill anything on a battlefield from a super heavy to a GC. Heavy Destroyers have Teeth (and now JSP to go along with that survivability) Nothing in the basic formation is useless, and the others formations to go with it are very good. No you cant stick everything in one list , but no ones army can.

but you know what my argument will be made when tournament results roll in and it blows the other 7th books out of the water and likely places very high amongst or better than the other books that are considered broken.

Tekron wrote:
ClockworkZion, you brought it up, it's hardly reasonable to expect other people to ignore it when you start telling people a likely incorrect interpretation of the rules.

It's not unreasonable to say you're not going to waste time arguing what is ultimately a difference of opinion and aren't changing your mind without an FAQ or errata.

And when this was presented I emailed GW's FAQs email about it. If I'm wrong fine, but I am not accepting the internet as the unyielding bastion of rules arguments when the internet has been the source of some of the stupidest rules arguments ever (like models not being allowed to shoot because they didn't have eyes being a valid rules interpretation).

So yeah, the disagreement was presented but there is no reason for me to actually accept it without actual backing by GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackArmour wrote:

mk , so Ignoring the fact that there are more than 1 Necron player who have posted the results of multiple battles in which people tailored their lists to fight them and ...... Failed.

how about you throw down some lists with the other 7th books

because I have sat down with my book and spent hours rolling out lists and only with HEAVY tailoring and pulling in allies do I come up with lists that stand a chance, and those lists are awful against anything else.

your best argument has been they don't have teeth, everyone else has pointed out that wraiths in fact do have those teeth and you're forced to deal with them because they close the gap way too quickly. their Basic troops ALSO have teeth considering they can kill anything on a battlefield from a super heavy to a GC. Heavy Destroyers have Teeth (and now JSP to go along with that survivability) Nothing in the basic formation is useless, and the others formations to go with it are very good. No you cant stick everything in one list , but no ones army can.

but you know what my argument will be made when tournament results roll in and it blows the other 7th books out of the water and likely places very high amongst or better than the other books that are considered broken.

Are you complaining that my monobuold army of Sisters is more powerful than a 7th edition army and the only reason I won was because my codex is somehow OP?

I want whatever you're smoking.

Also I don't list tailor and still pulled out a 7vp to 3vp win vs Crone on the Emperor's Will. So yeah, I'm going to say something is wrong and it wasn't me (especially when my whole second turn shooting was so bad almost nothing was hit and what was hit failed to wound or saved).

I don't want to say "learn to play" but it's starting to feel like the only advice left at this point.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Tekron wrote:
ClockworkZion, you brought it up, it's hardly reasonable to expect other people to ignore it when you start telling people a likely incorrect interpretation of the rules.

It's not unreasonable to say you're not going to waste time arguing what is ultimately a difference of opinion and aren't changing your mind without an FAQ or errata.

And when this was presented I emailed GW's FAQs email about it. If I'm wrong fine, but I am not accepting the internet as the unyielding bastion of rules arguments when the internet has been the source of some of the stupidest rules arguments ever (like models not being allowed to shoot because they didn't have eyes being a valid rules interpretation).

So yeah, the disagreement was presented but there is no reason for me to actually accept it without actual backing by GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackArmour wrote:

mk , so Ignoring the fact that there are more than 1 Necron player who have posted the results of multiple battles in which people tailored their lists to fight them and ...... Failed.

how about you throw down some lists with the other 7th books

because I have sat down with my book and spent hours rolling out lists and only with HEAVY tailoring and pulling in allies do I come up with lists that stand a chance, and those lists are awful against anything else.

your best argument has been they don't have teeth, everyone else has pointed out that wraiths in fact do have those teeth and you're forced to deal with them because they close the gap way too quickly. their Basic troops ALSO have teeth considering they can kill anything on a battlefield from a super heavy to a GC. Heavy Destroyers have Teeth (and now JSP to go along with that survivability) Nothing in the basic formation is useless, and the others formations to go with it are very good. No you cant stick everything in one list , but no ones army can.

but you know what my argument will be made when tournament results roll in and it blows the other 7th books out of the water and likely places very high amongst or better than the other books that are considered broken.

Are you complaining that my monobuold army of Sisters is more powerful than a 7th edition army and the only reason I won was because my codex is somehow OP?

I want whatever you're smoking.

Also I don't list tailor and still pulled out a 7vp to 3vp win vs Crone on the Emperor's Will. So yeah, I'm going to say something is wrong and it wasn't me (especially when my whole second turn shooting was so bad almost nothing was hit and what was hit failed to wound or saved).

I don't want to say "learn to play" but it's starting to feel like the only advice left at this point.

First off at NO point did I say sisters were OP but I see we're resorting to putting words in peoples mouths.

what I am saying Snip Reds8n to get it is your ONE sisters list against an opponent that we have no knowledge of their skill level or if this was their first battle with their new list OR how many times you won (sounding like 1 which is great you're pulling a ton of conclusions out of one batte) doesn't offer a better sample than the [u]multiple[u] players both Necron and other wise posting their results with multiple battles both against and with the new Necrons and showing that even with list tailoring they are struggling, with the very occasional victory .

But yah know I'm sure you're just a really amazing player and everyone else on the internet just sucks. I'd say that's me putting words in your mouth but nah


BTW I'm banking I could take those newcrons and wipe the floor with your sisters and likely many other Necron players could as well.


at any rate here's where I'm going to leave this since you've made up your mind after 1 battle and decided to ignore everyone elses results here.
I'm going to wait for tournament results and then we can come back and revisit this. One way or another one of us is going to be proven right.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Tekron wrote:
ClockworkZion, you brought it up, it's hardly reasonable to expect other people to ignore it when you start telling people a likely incorrect interpretation of the rules.

It's not unreasonable to say you're not going to waste time arguing what is ultimately a difference of opinion and aren't changing your mind without an FAQ or errata.

And when this was presented I emailed GW's FAQs email about it. If I'm wrong fine, but I am not accepting the internet as the unyielding bastion of rules arguments when the internet has been the source of some of the stupidest rules arguments ever (like models not being allowed to shoot because they didn't have eyes being a valid rules interpretation).

So yeah, the disagreement was presented but there is no reason for me to actually accept it without actual backing by GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackArmour wrote:

mk , so Ignoring the fact that there are more than 1 Necron player who have posted the results of multiple battles in which people tailored their lists to fight them and ...... Failed.

how about you throw down some lists with the other 7th books

because I have sat down with my book and spent hours rolling out lists and only with HEAVY tailoring and pulling in allies do I come up with lists that stand a chance, and those lists are awful against anything else.

your best argument has been they don't have teeth, everyone else has pointed out that wraiths in fact do have those teeth and you're forced to deal with them because they close the gap way too quickly. their Basic troops ALSO have teeth considering they can kill anything on a battlefield from a super heavy to a GC. Heavy Destroyers have Teeth (and now JSP to go along with that survivability) Nothing in the basic formation is useless, and the others formations to go with it are very good. No you cant stick everything in one list , but no ones army can.

but you know what my argument will be made when tournament results roll in and it blows the other 7th books out of the water and likely places very high amongst or better than the other books that are considered broken.

Are you complaining that my monobuold army of Sisters is more powerful than a 7th edition army and the only reason I won was because my codex is somehow OP?

I want whatever you're smoking.

Also I don't list tailor and still pulled out a 7vp to 3vp win vs Crone on the Emperor's Will. So yeah, I'm going to say something is wrong and it wasn't me (especially when my whole second turn shooting was so bad almost nothing was hit and what was hit failed to wound or saved).

I don't want to say "learn to play" but it's starting to feel like the only advice left at this point.

Honestly not to doubt the level of you opponent but I have been pouring through battle reports and people games and I'm seeing a 70% win ratio with crons. And I state that a bit conservatively. Now I do think we are still in the adjustment period where people are still figuring out newcrons and they are not a complicated army to play so I imagine the advantage is with the Crons currently. Still I am thinking that Cron might be very close to a Teir 0 codex.

The biggest weakness I'm seeing in the Cron dex is a lack of AP 2. So it might be time to dust off the Terminators. I imagine paladins and gk termis handle Wraiths okay with all the force weapons they got and hammer hand.

Generic space marines will have it rough, as will tau, and Maybe even eldar. Well marines can bring in Knights which will help. Tau have to play keep away same as eldar/DE. IG,Orks, and Nids can just tarpit them. Hmm. Chaos can use DPs.

The initial shock value of how much shooting these guys can absorb is well shocking. Its going to be a pain to figure out how to counter them effectively and I don't think some armies can. They just resist shooting too well and not every army has something that can tarpit pit them well enough.

Knights seem like one of the best counters for a lot of the new Necrons lists, but at the same time there are possible Necrons lists that would effectively hard counter them.

Surprise! The lowly Hormagaunt with poison sacs should do OK.

Equal points for 1 wraith with RP put a wound on it on the charge and then about 2/3 of a wound per turn thereafter, while the wraith is killing 1.44 hormagaunts a turn.

In my experience gaunts struggle against Necrons due to gauss, but they are certainly a deterrent to wraiths getting into vulnerable positions.

I am just going to throw this out there but everyone here on the forum for one reason or another thinks necrons are good, strong, or even outright overpowered. Now I think any person here can agree they are indeed powerful, but do they simply have raw power? If you consider all the post that have been made since the start of the forum of people coming up with ways to fight them, for on reason or another people are looking at how they can fight Necrons and win! To these people I thank because I want to field necrons and I am constantly probing how i can downplay my army because I want to have fun. In contrast I want to thank everyone that has pointed out what makes the Necrons good so I know what to cut back on.

In regards to power though many other armies have a plethora of options (Space marines, tyranids, tau, eldar, etc...) so does this make Necrons balanced? Perhaps not but here is something to consider basic troop choices don't have any options to take so you automatically know what they will be packing before the match even starts. Next are elites, same think few options pretty cut and dry. Fast attack more of the same except for wraiths and tomb blades. Finally is heavy support, with the only real optional equipment being apart of the canoptek spyder. Now a glaring exception to this rule is HQ's but in most cases its fairly cut and cry and has a very limited list to choose from. Necrons also lack the ability to take psychic powers which further predicts there capabilities without the randomness of the warp.

Necrons very straight forward army and has a mass ton of killing potential, but this is still a tactical table top war game. Given that you base your assumption off of the necron player will rely on his superior firepower and ability to soak up damage could this possibly be his weakness? If you field something as versatile as Space Marines you could still do any number of things to trip up your opponent but necrons really lack versatility except for their choice of unit choices (but this is mitigated by the fact every army has this capability). With the new decurian detachment groups of units are now fully predicted you can almost guarantee that they will field 2 squads of warriors, 1 HQ, 1 squad of immortals, and 1 squad of tomb blades.

Maybe this is just rambling, but I am trying to throw thoughts and ideas out there, I have certainly been over taken before I still think back to one of my earliest matches when i marched my necrons across the field, my opponent simply let me come to him and blasted me while i marched and when i finally got close enough he deep struck drop pods in front of my units blocking line of sight to his main tanks and artillery.

Can someone explain the downsides to me if I used a force of almost purely Warriors? Obviously Deca and HQ for RP Bonus, Ghost Arks, etc.
Debating a few tarpit units to keep Warriors from getting assaulted - but I get the feeling that throwing sheer weight of dice, that always have at least a small chance to cause a wound no matter what you're facing, you're in for a good time.

Ferros wrote:
Can someone explain the downsides to me if I used a force of almost purely Warriors? Obviously Deca and HQ for RP Bonus, Ghost Arks, etc.

Touch bland.

...That's about it though.

As a Tau player I feel Tau don't have it as bad as it looks at first sight against Wraiths.

Probably the best bet for a Tau player is Fire Warriors with Ethereal, 3 s5 shots per model at 15"+ quite a few more shots from the accompanying Devilfish and drones.

23 fire warriors with an ethereal and 2 Devilfishes are around 420 points.

Step 1: Light up the Spyder with Markerlights for Ignore Cover uf needed, then blow it up.with anything heavy.you might have (inflicting 4 unsaved wounds on a 3+ t6 MC shouldn't be a bery daunting task for Tau.

Then open up on the wraiths:

69 shots from fw, 8 from devilfishes, 8 from drones. Total 85 shots. 42 hits on average, resulting in 21 wounds, which yield 7 unsaved wounds on the RP-less Wraiths, for 3.5 dead ones. If they proceed to charge you, Overwatch with Supporting fire should take down at least another one.

All of this is just theorycrafting for now as I haven't been able to get a game against new necrons yet.

Ferros wrote:
Can someone explain the downsides to me if I used a force of almost purely Warriors? Obviously Deca and HQ for RP Bonus, Ghost Arks, etc.
Debating a few tarpit units to keep Warriors from getting assaulted - but I get the feeling that throwing sheer weight of dice, that always have at least a small chance to cause a wound no matter what you're facing, you're in for a good time.

I played alot of games with such a list in 6th (no Decurion obviusosly). It worked very well for me in 6th. If my first Necron game with the new codex is any indication, I can tell you it works even better with the Decurion in 7th.

It may be a bit monotone (bland), but IME people LOVE to play against it, even if they lose, because The Terminator.

LordBlades wrote:
As a Tau player I feel Tau don't have it as bad as it looks at first sight against Wraiths.

Probably the best bet for a Tau player is Fire Warriors with Ethereal, 3 s5 shots per model at 15"+ quite a few more shots from the accompanying Devilfish and drones.

23 fire warriors with an ethereal and 2 Devilfishes are around 420 points.

Step 1: Light up the Spyder with Markerlights for Ignore Cover uf needed, then blow it up.with anything heavy.you might have (inflicting 4 unsaved wounds on a 3+ t6 MC shouldn't be a bery daunting task for Tau.

Then open up on the wraiths:

69 shots from fw, 8 from devilfishes, 8 from drones. Total 85 shots. 42 hits on average, resulting in 21 wounds, which yield 7 unsaved wounds on the RP-less Wraiths, for 3.5 dead ones. If they proceed to charge you, Overwatch with Supporting fire should take down at least another one.

All of this is just theorycrafting for now as I haven't been able to get a game against new necrons yet.

First note that the wraiths have RP until their next movement phase, they don't immediately lose it upon the leaving or death of the spyder.
Second, the spyder also has RP. This means you'll need 6 successful ap3 ignore cover wounds on average.
Third, if you obviously have the firepower to down the spyder from across the table in your army, the cron player could hide it out of LOS for the first turn. He doesn't need to see the wraiths to buff them.

It's just kind of insane that a 3 wound t6 3+ save 4+ RP mc that spawns swarms is the "weak point" of the formation. And yknow, it costs the same as a naked techmarine. After playing around with and against 7crons over the last few weeks, I'm not sure if I consider harvest wraiths or harvest spyders more broken.

niv-mizzet wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
As a Tau player I feel Tau don't have it as bad as it looks at first sight against Wraiths.

Probably the best bet for a Tau player is Fire Warriors with Ethereal, 3 s5 shots per model at 15"+ quite a few more shots from the accompanying Devilfish and drones.

23 fire warriors with an ethereal and 2 Devilfishes are around 420 points.

Step 1: Light up the Spyder with Markerlights for Ignore Cover uf needed, then blow it up.with anything heavy.you might have (inflicting 4 unsaved wounds on a 3+ t6 MC shouldn't be a bery daunting task for Tau.

Then open up on the wraiths:

69 shots from fw, 8 from devilfishes, 8 from drones. Total 85 shots. 42 hits on average, resulting in 21 wounds, which yield 7 unsaved wounds on the RP-less Wraiths, for 3.5 dead ones. If they proceed to charge you, Overwatch with Supporting fire should take down at least another one.

All of this is just theorycrafting for now as I haven't been able to get a game against new necrons yet.

First note that the wraiths have RP until their next movement phase, they don't immediately lose it upon the leaving or death of the spyder.
Second, the spyder also has RP. This means you'll need 6 successful ap3 ignore cover wounds on average.
Third, if you obviously have the firepower to down the spyder from across the table in your army, the cron player could hide it out of LOS for the first turn. He doesn't need to see the wraiths to buff them.

It's just kind of insane that a 3 wound t6 3+ save 4+ RP mc that spawns swarms is the "weak point" of the formation. And yknow, it costs the same as a naked techmarine. After playing around with and against 7crons over the last few weeks, I'm not sure if I consider harvest wraiths or harvest spyders more broken.

Fair point about the next movement phase, somehow I missed that. Same goes for the 6 wounds....somehow 3 wounds + rp computed as 4 instead of 6 in my head Either way, neither figure should be an issue for most well-built Tau armies.

Even if he hides his spyder at start, he will have to come forward sooner or later, as a shooting match plays to Tau's advantage.

I don't deny it's goimg to be tough as hell to take down the new Necrons, but I feel Tau has a better shot at it than many other codexes.

Well, yeah. That comes with the territory of being a high-tier codex. :p

LordBlades wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
As a Tau player I feel Tau don't have it as bad as it looks at first sight against Wraiths.

Probably the best bet for a Tau player is Fire Warriors with Ethereal, 3 s5 shots per model at 15"+ quite a few more shots from the accompanying Devilfish and drones.

23 fire warriors with an ethereal and 2 Devilfishes are around 420 points.

Step 1: Light up the Spyder with Markerlights for Ignore Cover uf needed, then blow it up.with anything heavy.you might have (inflicting 4 unsaved wounds on a 3+ t6 MC shouldn't be a bery daunting task for Tau.

Then open up on the wraiths:

69 shots from fw, 8 from devilfishes, 8 from drones. Total 85 shots. 42 hits on average, resulting in 21 wounds, which yield 7 unsaved wounds on the RP-less Wraiths, for 3.5 dead ones. If they proceed to charge you, Overwatch with Supporting fire should take down at least another one.

All of this is just theorycrafting for now as I haven't been able to get a game against new necrons yet.

First note that the wraiths have RP until their next movement phase, they don't immediately lose it upon the leaving or death of the spyder.
Second, the spyder also has RP. This means you'll need 6 successful ap3 ignore cover wounds on average.
Third, if you obviously have the firepower to down the spyder from across the table in your army, the cron player could hide it out of LOS for the first turn. He doesn't need to see the wraiths to buff them.

It's just kind of insane that a 3 wound t6 3+ save 4+ RP mc that spawns swarms is the "weak point" of the formation. And yknow, it costs the same as a naked techmarine. After playing around with and against 7crons over the last few weeks, I'm not sure if I consider harvest wraiths or harvest spyders more broken.

Fair point about the next movement phase, somehow I missed that. Same goes for the 6 wounds....somehow 3 wounds + rp computed as 4 instead of 6 in my head Either way, neither figure should be an issue for most well-built Tau armies.

Even if he hides his spyder at start, he will have to come forward sooner or later, as a shooting match plays to Tau's advantage.

I don't deny it's goimg to be tough as hell to take down the new Necrons, but I feel Tau has a better shot at it than many other codexes.

Unless said necron player does something evil like DS across the table with a cc unit and pops his light n makes you only hit on 6s while shooting. Meaning youre now forced to deal with that while the wraiths are moving up. Im thinking this will show up more often than people think. However thats total theory crafting at its best and is really only food for thought

I got my first encounter in with the Coven against the new and improved Necrons. The Living Tomb was accompanied by 4 Crypteks and 65 Necron Warriors.


I started with the Corpsethief claw in a corner behind a hill and his Necrons creeping up into position to hold objectives.

IN round 2, the Obelisk dropped and with it a Monolith. From the Monolith spilled 17 Necron Warriors and 12 more Necron Warriors, blasting and killing two of the 5 Talos and the Monolith bombing them. At bottom of two I brought on all the Wrack s and their Raiders but they did nothing and to top it all off I missed my charge, leaving my Talos in the wind again and with no kills to show for it!

Round 3 he blasted me again and killed another Talos, leaving me just two, while his Obelisk and now third Monolith took up a lot of space in the middle and started downing a Raider forcing my Warlord to reembark on a different one. The Necron shooting was copious. At bottom of three, my Warlord retreated into another Raider
.
Meanwhile the Grotesques and their rides screamed up the right sideline and readied themselves for war! It was turn three though and we really managed just one Glance on one Monolith at this point and almost all his Necrons still alive. My Talos charged the offending warriors they were chasing and did some damage making them flee but Reanimation Protocols were working well for him.

Round 4 the Necrons who were running from the Talos on the far left used the Veil of Darkness to slam themselves dead bang onto the objective on the far right of the field. Deft stroke, denying me Victory Points from my Corpsethief Claw ability. Most of the Necron force was on that right side at this point. Monoliths kept bombing and wounded the Talos again, the other Monolith and Necrons trying to pop the Grotesques outta their shells before they got a chance to get loose, but the Raiders held up to the damage other than immobilizing one near the Monolith on the left, leaving me two that were mobile.

Bottom of 4, the flood gates opened as both Grotesque units muti-charged from their Raiders, locking up FOUR Necron units! Rampage more than made up for the loss of the charge attack. The Necrons and Haemonculus Covens were very hearty and so this was going to take a little while to resolve. Good news is that the Haywire and the Lances, now free to re-position, loaded the near monolith with shots and took three Hull Points from it.

Top of Round 5 was furious combat as I flailed and could barely manage to kill three Necron Warriors with my best unit! I finally broke one unit but not the other three. My immobilized Raider just squatted on an objective the Monolith was contesting. At this stage I actually controlled 1 objective on the right side and he had two, one in the middle which my Grotesques were fighting to tie. Secondaries were tied also. His Veil of Darkness unit gave him control of his second objective (Obsec for the win). So on my turn I had to kill that Veil unit and threw all the Wracks I could at it using Liquifiers and poisoned weapons to chop it down to just the Cryptel and two Crons. the unit of Grotesques that was freed up tried to charge but failed.

So round 6 was all about extinguishing the remaining Cryptek and his soldiers from where he had teleported to. His Monolith and Obelisk could deny my force their 2 objectives which meant the fight came down to whether or not that Veil unit could be killed. The melee's continued and the Grotesques tore up yet more Necrons and finally killed the last resistance in the middle but the Obelisk stopped them from scoring.
At bottom of six, the Wracks and the Grotesques tore the Veil unit apart and with that, i now had two objectives. Then the Talos and the lone Raider to the left shot and killed the Monolith there which gave us three objectives.

Final Score was 11-2.Had he used his Veil a round sooner, it might have been a closer score and obviously hindsight is 20/20.

My list, with no Objective secured, ironically.

Grotesquerie (Freakish Spectacles)

140pts Urien Rakarth

210pts 5 Grotesques (Aberration W/ Scissorhand, Liquifier Gun)
65pts Raider (Aethersails, Dark Lance)

175pts 4 Grotesques (Aberration W/ Scissorhand, Liquifier Gun)
65pts Raider (Aethersails, Dark Lance)

Corpsethief Claw Detachment (Freakish Spectacle, and Scout Special Rules)
675pts 5 Talos (Feel No Pain, TL Haywire Blaster, 1 x Chain Flail, 2 x Ichor Injectors)

Covenite FleshCorps (Freakish Spectacle, Master of Flesh)

145pts Haemonculus (Liquifier, Scissorhand, Syndriq's Sump, The Khaidesi Haemovores, The Panacea Perverted, The Vexator Mask)

110pts 7 Wracks (Acothyst w Liquifier, 1 x Liquifier)
65pts Raider (Aethersails, Dark Lance)

110pts 7 Wracks (Acothyst w Liquifier, 1 x Liquifier)
65pts Raider (Aethersails, Dark Lance)

110pts 7 Wracks (Acothyst w Liquifier, 1 x Liquifier)
65pts Raider (Aethersails, Dark lance)

 BlackArmour wrote:


Unless said necron player does something evil like DS across the table with a cc unit and pops his light n makes you only hit on 6s while shooting. Meaning youre now forced to deal with that while the wraiths are moving up. Im thinking this will show up more often than people think. However thats total theory crafting at its best and is really only food for thought

That's what I plan on doing with most of my CC units. Seems to be a legit strategy.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 BlackArmour wrote:


Unless said necron player does something evil like DS across the table with a cc unit and pops his light n makes you only hit on 6s while shooting. Meaning youre now forced to deal with that while the wraiths are moving up. Im thinking this will show up more often than people think. However thats total theory crafting at its best and is really only food for thought

That's what I plan on doing with most of my CC units. Seems to be a legit strategy.

Ohhhh its totally legit, and ruins a gun line drown them in shots strategy

 Jancoran wrote:
I got my first encounter in with the Coven against the new and improved Necrons. The Living Tomb was accompanied by 4 Crypteks and 65 Necron Warriors.


I started with the Corpsethief claw in a corner behind a hill and his Necrons creeping up into position to hold objectives.

IN round 2, the Obelisk dropped and with it a Monolith. From the Monolith spilled 17 Necron Warriors and 12 more Necron Warriors, blasting and killing two of the 5 Talos and the Monolith bombing them. At bottom of two I brought on all the Wrack s and their Raiders but they did nothing and to top it all off I missed my charge, leaving my Talos in the wind again and with no kills to show for it!

Round 3 he blasted me again and killed another Talos, leaving me just two, while his Obelisk and now third Monolith took up a lot of space in the middle and started downing a Raider forcing my Warlord to reembark on a different one. The Necron shooting was copious. At bottom of three, my Warlord retreated into another Raider
.
Meanwhile the Grotesques and their rides screamed up the right sideline and readied themselves for war! It was turn three though and we really managed just one Glance on one Monolith at this point and almost all his Necrons still alive. My Talos charged the offending warriors they were chasing and did some damage making them flee but Reanimation Protocols were working well for him.

Round 4 the Necrons who were running from the Talos on the far left used the Veil of Darkness to slam themselves dead bang onto the objective on the far right of the field. Deft stroke, denying me Victory Points from my Corpsethief Claw ability. Most of the Necron force was on that right side at this point. Monoliths kept bombing and wounded the Talos again, the other Monolith and Necrons trying to pop the Grotesques outta their shells before they got a chance to get loose, but the Raiders held up to the damage other than immobilizing one near the Monolith on the left, leaving me two that were mobile.

Bottom of 4, the flood gates opened as both Grotesque units muti-charged from their Raiders, locking up FOUR Necron units! Rampage more than made up for the loss of the charge attack. The Necrons and Haemonculus Covens were very hearty and so this was going to take a little while to resolve. Good news is that the Haywire and the Lances, now free to re-position, loaded the near monolith with shots and took three Hull Points from it.

Top of Round 5 was furious combat as I flailed and could barely manage to kill three Necron Warriors with my best unit! I finally broke one unit but not the other three. My immobilized Raider just squatted on an objective the Monolith was contesting. At this stage I actually controlled 1 objective on the right side and he had two, one in the middle which my Grotesques were fighting to tie. Secondaries were tied also. His Veil of Darkness unit gave him control of his second objective (Obsec for the win). So on my turn I had to kill that Veil unit and threw all the Wracks I could at it using Liquifiers and poisoned weapons to chop it down to just the Cryptel and two Crons. the unit of Grotesques that was freed up tried to charge but failed.

So round 6 was all about extinguishing the remaining Cryptek and his soldiers from where he had teleported to. His Monolith and Obelisk could deny my force their 2 objectives which meant the fight came down to whether or not that Veil unit could be killed. The melee's continued and the Grotesques tore up yet more Necrons and finally killed the last resistance in the middle but the Obelisk stopped them from scoring.
At bottom of six, the Wracks and the Grotesques tore the Veil unit apart and with that, i now had two objectives. Then the Talos and the lone Raider to the left shot and killed the Monolith there which gave us three objectives.

Final Score was 11-2.Had he used his Veil a round sooner, it might have been a closer score and obviously hindsight is 20/20.

My list, with no Objective secured, ironically.

Grotesquerie (Freakish Spectacles)

140pts Urien Rakarth

210pts 5 Grotesques (Aberration W/ Scissorhand, Liquifier Gun)
65pts Raider (Aethersails, Dark Lance)

175pts 4 Grotesques (Aberration W/ Scissorhand, Liquifier Gun)
65pts Raider (Aethersails, Dark Lance)

Corpsethief Claw Detachment (Freakish Spectacle, and Scout Special Rules)
675pts 5 Talos (Feel No Pain, TL Haywire Blaster, 1 x Chain Flail, 2 x Ichor Injectors)

Covenite FleshCorps (Freakish Spectacle, Master of Flesh)

145pts Haemonculus (Liquifier, Scissorhand, Syndriq's Sump, The Khaidesi Haemovores, The Panacea Perverted, The Vexator Mask)

110pts 7 Wracks (Acothyst w Liquifier, 1 x Liquifier)
65pts Raider (Aethersails, Dark Lance)

110pts 7 Wracks (Acothyst w Liquifier, 1 x Liquifier)
65pts Raider (Aethersails, Dark Lance)

110pts 7 Wracks (Acothyst w Liquifier, 1 x Liquifier)
65pts Raider (Aethersails, Dark lance)

Hooray Dark Eldar! I'm thinking that the auto-wound on 6 from Gauss isn't as serious as I thought. Given a S4 gun, the Talos still get wounded on a 6, so unless you're T8 or higher the auto wound won't be relevant. Wounding on 6 is much less effective than a necron might hope (my Touch of Rust plaguebearers can attest). A Dark Artisan should be able to eat quite a few warrior shots without paying for wasted Toughness. Of course, it comes back to "how do you kill these things", but maybe you just try to tie up the shootier units and proceed to focus fire on everything else while grabbing objectives with fast movers.

For other armies, psychic spam will be a boon. Swat the heavy hitters with debuffs then hide out of range or LOS for anything that isn't tarpitted. I wonder how a Librarian/CentStar would manage at tanking hits.

Perhaps you don't even try to kill them, but buy time while you grab objectives. Trying to kill them only plays to their strength, after all.

Dark Eldar and Necrons are a good match up so are the Tyranids as long as you don't have soem guy bringing a horrible 4 Flyrants list.

I have not yet played the Newcrons, so don't take me too seriously here.

LordBlades wrote:
I don't deny it's going to be tough as hell to take down the new Necrons, but I feel Tau has a better shot at it than many other codexes.

While this statement is probably true, Tau can spam more S5 and S7 weaponry, which has a better chance of wounding the spyder and wraiths, it isn't enough. The CH simply will not die to shooting before it has done its job. 1 wraith will be soaking up around 12 Pulse WOUNDS. So with an Ethereal and a single marker hit, a full FW squad could kill a single wraith. And to do that they have to give up Stubborn in the assault phase and be within easy charge range.

Sure, Tau can hurt them more than some other Codices, in the 1-2 shooting phases before they get into combat, but it isn't going to remove the threat. As far as I can tell, the only way to deal with the CH is with fearless Tarpit units or with D weapons, hoping for the magical 6. Tau don't have great tarpit units, and the ones they have require a nearby Ethereal granting Stubborn and Ld 10.

I'm not saying Tau can't beat Newcrons, I'm sure they can. However, if you are going to run pure Tau, you better have a plan to win that doesn't involve shooting a CH off the table in the first 2 turns.

lustigjh wrote:

Hooray Dark Eldar! I'm thinking that the auto-wound on 6 from Gauss isn't as serious as I thought. Given a S4 gun, the Talos still get wounded on a 6, so unless you're T8 or higher the auto wound won't be relevant. Wounding on 6 is much less effective than a necron might hope (my Touch of Rust plaguebearers can attest). A Dark Artisan should be able to eat quite a few warrior shots without paying for wasted Toughness. Of course, it comes back to "how do you kill these things", but maybe you just try to tie up the shootier units and proceed to focus fire on everything else while grabbing objectives with fast movers.

For other armies, psychic spam will be a boon. Swat the heavy hitters with debuffs then hide out of range or LOS for anything that isn't tarpitted. I wonder how a Librarian/CentStar would manage at tanking hits.

Perhaps you don't even try to kill them, but buy time while you grab objectives. Trying to kill them only plays to their strength, after all.

The autowound was useful against my Talos and of course so were the large blast templates which never seemed to miss! Ouch. The Tesla Cannons were also quite good. He had a fair amount that could hurt my MC's. His shooting was fully capable of shooting up my Raiders as well which is why I reserved them to start the game and let the game develop a little. It limited the amount of fire he could get on me and limited where he would WANT to put the Obelisk and Monoliths to begin.

His mobility was good enough to get anywhere he needed to be, so he was taking advantage of that and taking up a lot of space but the Dark eldar were victorious nonetheless.

I have since advised my friend to make a slight modification to this list, one which will substantially increase his effectiveness I think. I advised him to take two units (6 and 7) of Flayed Ones in order to play as an offensive picket against the kind of multicharging my army was capable of. This did not reduce his number of units (but did cost him his Ressurection orbs) and so the skeleton of the list is unchanged other than that there will be 5 more bodies on the table and some of them will be quite good at smashing into things and then melting on the enemies turn. Perfect solution for keeping his shooting alive and his ability to score at will alive with it.

 Jancoran wrote:

lustigjh wrote:

Hooray Dark Eldar! I'm thinking that the auto-wound on 6 from Gauss isn't as serious as I thought. Given a S4 gun, the Talos still get wounded on a 6, so unless you're T8 or higher the auto wound won't be relevant. Wounding on 6 is much less effective than a necron might hope (my Touch of Rust plaguebearers can attest). A Dark Artisan should be able to eat quite a few warrior shots without paying for wasted Toughness. Of course, it comes back to "how do you kill these things", but maybe you just try to tie up the shootier units and proceed to focus fire on everything else while grabbing objectives with fast movers.

For other armies, psychic spam will be a boon. Swat the heavy hitters with debuffs then hide out of range or LOS for anything that isn't tarpitted. I wonder how a Librarian/CentStar would manage at tanking hits.

Perhaps you don't even try to kill them, but buy time while you grab objectives. Trying to kill them only plays to their strength, after all.

The autowound was useful against my Talos and of course so were the large blast templates which never seemed to miss! Ouch. The Tesla Cannons were also quite good. He had a fair amount that could hurt my MC's. His shooting was fully capable of shooting up my Raiders as well which is why I reserved them to start the game and let the game develop a little. It limited the amount of fire he could get on me and limited where he would WANT to put the Obelisk and Monoliths to begin.

His mobility was good enough to get anywhere he needed to be, so he was taking advantage of that and taking up a lot of space but the Dark eldar were victorious nonetheless.

I have since advised my friend to make a slight modification to this list, one which will substantially increase his effectiveness I think. I advised him to take two units (6 and 7) of Flayed Ones in order to play as an offensive picket against the kind of multicharging my army was capable of. This did not reduce his number of units (but did cost him his Ressurection orbs) and so the skeleton of the list is unchanged other than that there will be 5 more bodies on the table and some of them will be quite good at smashing into things and then melting on the enemies turn. Perfect solution for keeping his shooting alive and his ability to score at will alive with it.

To be fair, I think most armies have basic guns that can shoot up Raiders. It's a pretty big waste of shots to do so, although that will still force jinks. In theory, the "points cost" for gauss will have been wasted on a useless upgrade.

Ferros wrote:
Can someone explain the downsides to me if I used a force of almost purely Warriors?

Monstrous Creatures. You can't do squat to them if they make it into assault with your warriors.

Assault Heavy Armies in General. Even with RP, warriors lack ATSKNF, and any assault options. They'll eventually lose in assualt verses anything made for close combat.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
From the LVO results thread

gungo wrote:

Frontlinegaming.org
Currently sitting at the top of the pack with a 4-0 record is;

Matt Root Orks/Orks

Alan B. (PJ Pants) Chaos Daemons/Tyranids

Brandon Grant Dark Angels/Astra Mil

Nick Nanavati Chaos Daemons/Inquisition

Isreal Sanchez Tau Enclave

Nick Rose Space Marines/Blood Angels

Nathanal Woolhouse Eldar/Dark Eldar

John Parsons Eldar

Michael Kiser Adeptius Sororitas/Astra Mil

Tyler DeVries Eldar

Ben Cromwell Eldar

Cooper Waddell Space Marines

Ian Ager Space Wolves

Not a single Necron list in the top results.

So maybe Necrons aren't the over hyped broken goodness after all ?