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 Vaktathi wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
So is the Necrons are broken good club back peddling to Necrons are going to be broken good, a few months from now, if they get to play a Decurion, and get to spam formations ?

So, we're considering the LVO and the ironclad and definitive determination on Necron power level and calling any points brought up regarding the LVO environment and timing relative to the new codex release date "backpedaling"?

Particularly when (at least to my knowledge) we don't know how many used the new book or what they ran?

Do you like to avoid answering questions by asking conversation redirecting questions ?

---

Reasons given, in this thread, why Necrons didn't dominate the LVO
1.) Timing - They only had weeks to prepare using the new codex. The alledged cheese that makes necron's broken needs to age like actual cheese. The internet critics are quick to point out everything that is broken good, but somehow the Necron players weren't able to figure it out.

2.) Models They only had 2 weeks to build and paint their forces. 13 Necron players, and none of them owned the requisite models for a Decurion ? I get that Tomb Blades weren't top tier last codex, and Lychguard and Praetoreans are better, but no one has accused them of being the magic broken cheese units of the new codex. If only wraiths and scarabs were popular last codex, oh wait they were.

3.) LVO Restrictions - 2 detachments. CAD +1 Detachment, or Decurion(which is a minimum 2 detachments)
Necrons were unable to unlease the full power of the decurion.
Either the argument is then Necrons need the Decurion to be broken, or need to spam the detachments to be broken.
BOTH of which are backpeddling from the initial hysteria.

The LVO is not a indication at all of the strength level of the codex and you using it as a example is a base rate fallacy.

 adamsouza wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
So is the Necrons are broken good club back peddling to Necrons are going to be broken good, a few months from now, if they get to play a Decurion, and get to spam formations ?

So, we're considering the LVO and the ironclad and definitive determination on Necron power level and calling any points brought up regarding the LVO environment and timing relative to the new codex release date "backpedaling"?

Particularly when (at least to my knowledge) we don't know how many used the new book or what they ran?

Do you like to avoid answering questions by asking conversation redirecting questions ?

I'm trying to point out you're accusing others of something based on a singular example with some notable issues.

Reasons given, in this thread, why Necrons didn't dominate the LVO
1.) Timing - They only had weeks to prepare using the new codex. The alledged cheese that makes necron's broken needs to age like actual cheese. The internet critics are quick to point out everything that is broken good, but somehow the Necron players weren't able to figure it out.

You're intentionally avoiding the point people are talking about with time here. Again, this is an event most players don't just make a list for the day before. Most people going to the LVO make a list weeks or months in advance, and spend a lot of time building, painting and practicing with said army. A radical change to that, particularly with real life in the way, often isn't possible to adapt to in like two weeks.

2.) Models They only had 2 weeks to build and paint their forces. 13 Necron players, and none of them owned the requisite models for a Decurion ? I get that Tomb Blades weren't top tier last codex, and Lychguard and Praetoreans are better, but no one has accused them of being the magic broken cheese units of the new codex. If only wraiths and scarabs were popular last codex, oh wait they were.

Yes those two units were. Do they have as many as they'd like to run with the new book? Built as they'd like? Do they have Tomb Blades at all to run a Decurion detachment with? Do they have all the Warriors they would need? Are they practiced with the mechanics of the new book?

3.) LVO Restrictions - 2 detachments. CAD +1 Detachment, or Decurion(which is a minimum 2 detachments)
Necrons were unable to unlease the full power of the decurion.
Either the argument is then Necrons need the Decurion to be broken, or need to spam the detachments to be broken.
BOTH of which are backpeddling from the initial hysteria.

Or it's only one aspect of a multi-faceted argument...



If the book had come out in Nov/Dec, these results might mean more. As far as I'm aware, we don't know how many used the new book versus the old book, how many tried running a Decurion vs a CAD, what the lists looked like, or anything else, we only know the rankings, the number of Necron players, and the if Necrons were a primary or a secondary detachment.

Read through most of this and im curious, if anyone has brought up Hellfrost yet. Its been a while since I have read it outright but a model that takes a wound and lives (in this case via RP) takes a strength check and if fails is removed from play

Reanimation protocols are similar to IWND correct? in that they restore an unsaved wound but in their case even if the model is dead. It is not a save similar to FNP and IWND so could pie plating Hellfrost all over weaker mobs of warriors and such be the key to an forcing more rolls which we all know is the death to any army.

Am I wrong? If so why

edit for clarity

 adamsouza wrote:
So is the Necrons are broken good club back peddling to Necrons are going to be broken good, a few months from now, if they get to play a Decurion, and get to spam formations ?

Note the yellow text. I didn't even mention LVO there. My comment was directed at the change of direction of the comments of the critics.

The tone went from "ZOMG THEY ARE BROKEN" to "Well, you see, m'kay, in the confines of the tournament scene Necrons are not able to operate at their full potential"

I don't think they are broken.
I'm not making up justifications for why they didn't dominate the tournament.
I'm not justifying why I'm making justifications.

I pointed out the LVO results, pages back, to rub it in the face of those who said "wait until the first tournament results start coming in" to justify their arguments of how broken Necrons are.

I'll be happy to revisit this conversation, 3 months from now, after we get more tournament results because I'm confident that Necrons still won't be dominating the tournament scene.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Out of 220something players, there were a grand total of 13 players with a primary detachment of necrons plus one more than brought them as a secondary. It's an event with some not insignificant house rules and army construction restrictions. This is also an event people usually build armies for long in advance and often practice for several months for, switching over to a new book that comes out a couple weeks before the event and expecting lots of players to take full advantage of the new book (often including buying and painting new units, particularly for running a Decurion) in just a few days before traveling cross-country may be expecting a bit much.

Likewise, with a Dark Angels and Sororitas list placing relatively highly, do we conclude these are powerhouse army books? Probably not.

Adepta Sororitas are very good. It doesnt surprise me, ever, when they do well.

Sisters are a solid middle tier with one specific kind of list in my experience, but they also have a couple of bad match ups too. Mostly from Guard, Tau and Orks.

It's not impossible to win, but you definitely have to expect an uphill fight with those bad matches.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Out of 220something players, there were a grand total of 13 players with a primary detachment of necrons plus one more than brought them as a secondary. It's an event with some not insignificant house rules and army construction restrictions. This is also an event people usually build armies for long in advance and often practice for several months for, switching over to a new book that comes out a couple weeks before the event and expecting lots of players to take full advantage of the new book (often including buying and painting new units, particularly for running a Decurion) in just a few days before traveling cross-country may be expecting a bit much.

Likewise, with a Dark Angels and Sororitas list placing relatively highly, do we conclude these are powerhouse army books? Probably not.

Adepta Sororitas are very good. It doesnt surprise me, ever, when they do well.

Sisters are a solid middle tier with one specific kind of list in my experience, but they also have a couple of bad match ups too. Mostly from Guard, Tau and Orks.

It's not impossible to win, but you definitely have to expect an uphill fight with those bad matches.

My Sisters of Battle deal pretty well with everything. I think my only real struggles with Sisters of Battle came when they fought against FMC spam. But then, that's pretty much everyone, so I don't feel too bad about those losses. Other than that, I don't struggle with them.

The builds i have used successfully are the highly mechanized Sisters, Multiple large units, and also did win three tournaments by taking one of everything in the codex (literally). I won three out of four tournaments with that list. You wouldn't have thunk it, but the results were there to see.

Necron units are more overtly good at what they do. The thing I am liking so much about the necrons now is that they have a legitimate reason to be played with a heavy contingent of Warriors. Every choice in the codex can be built around, so there are no terribad things to play in it, yet they raised points on the really good stuff, so even the really good stuff is at least cost'd fairly for the enemy.

I am looking forward to fighting more for and against them.

 Jancoran wrote:


Necron units are more overtly good at what they do. The thing I am liking so much about the necrons now is that they have a legitimate reason to be played with a heavy contingent of Warriors. Every choice in the codex can be built around, so there are no terribad things to play in it, yet they raised points on the really good stuff, so even the really good stuff is at least cost'd fairly for the enemy.

I am looking forward to fighting more for and against them.

This is why I believe the Necron book got stronger. not because they necessarily gained more firepower or anything, but because everything is useable, so they gained access to a lot more viable lists and builds. Plus, there's more synergy between units, which is always nice.

LVO results are representative - necrons are fine 7th edition codex, but absolutely uncomparable with the top tier ones now. Maybe the will be interesting when all 6th edition codexes will be roled out.

New codex is even weaker against present meta of flyrants, knights, S7 shooting and centstars.

elotar wrote:
LVO results are representative - necrons are fine 7th edition codex

Was there List building rules and limitations shown?

Do we even know the lists and match ups? (serious question was these posted?)

Here is the thing that bothers me about some of the arguments I am hearing.

Because there are things out there worse than Necrons, Necrons are fine. There is such a huge swing in this game from bad, to mediocre, to good, to broken that you see people claiming Necrons are fine the way they are because there are things that are better than them in the tournament scene. You know what? That doesn't mean anything that if the army as a whole is completely unfun to play against due to their power level in comparison to other codices. Not everyone plays at the absolute highest level of competition that this game allows for and not everyone is interested in throwing away 80% of their codex in order to play a list that can compete.

The main issue in this codex along with the Tau codex is that you don't really have many bad choices, most every unit is competent to good at what it does with a few outlier units that are to good at what they do. Necrons are worse than Tau in this regard because the Tau baseline without its more powerful units are fairly in line with other armies competent units, while even the competent units in the Necron codex outshine competent units in other codices.

It is the same as saying that Tyranids are fine because they just won the LVO. No, no they are not just fine. They have exactly one viable build and that is to spam as many Flyrants as possible and ignore the rest of the codex. YES I know that is an exaggeration, I know that there are other decent units in the codex but a good deal of the codex is just swamped in awful to unusable units. The Tyranid codex has the worst internal balance of any of the codices out there right now and yet it can still win GTs, that doesn't make it okay!

Just like Tyranids, Necrons have a problem that has less to do with the ultimate power level of the game but the median power level of the game. Necrons have this problem at the meta level and Tyranids have this problem at the codex level. Necrons peak is lower than other codices but in a general setting without focusing on the most hardened of list it is an abysmally unfun list to play against. Some armies are strangely apt at fighting the new list, like SoB, my SoB have no problem facing off against the new Necrons because I can force so many wounds with flamers on their troops and tear up their harder stuff with meltas and exorcist. SoB also have the unique position that they have one of the best counters to Wraiths that exist in the game with the Conclave, as has already been discussed here. Being able to cheaply throw a unit with 3++, high initiative mass attacks, and rerollable saves is exactly what other armies need to counter wraiths. But let that sink in, ALL of that is the best way to counter wraiths and is that really the level we want this game to reside at? Obviously not, but who is surprised that GW doesn't care about the game and only wants to push sales even harder?

 krodarklorr wrote:
So, going over the codex again and again, and talking with some friends of mine, I've realized that Necrons, while very well balanced internally, are crazy powerful compared to how they used to be. I've sat down and thought of all the issues I've had fighting against other armies, and no armies out there (save for an entire Imperial Knight army) really threatens me anymore. Necrons see to have an answer for everything, since all of their units are viable now. HQs aren't quite as killy, but more supportive, and arguable harder to kill. Troops are tough as nails. Elites are cheaper and everything has a viable use. Heavy Supports are worth it now. Fast Attack are still good, and even more became good. And the Decurion Detachment is ridiculous. Sure, I personally feel it gives the book it's own flavor, and is very fluffy in itself, but the benefits seem to be too good, when you think about it.

Necrons very well could be the next Eldar in terms of power level, though without a lot of cheese. I don't wanna become "that guy" that nobody wants to play because Necrons are too good.

Do you guys think the power level is in a good spot? Or is it too much to handle compared to other 7th edition codexes? And if it is too much, what can we expect to see from other 7th edition codexes when they start updating them. What are your guy's thoughts on this matter?

I also apologize ahead of time if there is a thread already about this and I missed it.

I don't think they sray into "OP" territory. From what I've seen Necrons are very strong, but not unplayably strong. So go ahead and enjoy having a strong Codex, GW will nurf bash it soon enough.

pinecone77 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
So, going over the codex again and again, and talking with some friends of mine, I've realized that Necrons, while very well balanced internally, are crazy powerful compared to how they used to be. I've sat down and thought of all the issues I've had fighting against other armies, and no armies out there (save for an entire Imperial Knight army) really threatens me anymore. Necrons see to have an answer for everything, since all of their units are viable now. HQs aren't quite as killy, but more supportive, and arguable harder to kill. Troops are tough as nails. Elites are cheaper and everything has a viable use. Heavy Supports are worth it now. Fast Attack are still good, and even more became good. And the Decurion Detachment is ridiculous. Sure, I personally feel it gives the book it's own flavor, and is very fluffy in itself, but the benefits seem to be too good, when you think about it.

Necrons very well could be the next Eldar in terms of power level, though without a lot of cheese. I don't wanna become "that guy" that nobody wants to play because Necrons are too good.

Do you guys think the power level is in a good spot? Or is it too much to handle compared to other 7th edition codexes? And if it is too much, what can we expect to see from other 7th edition codexes when they start updating them. What are your guy's thoughts on this matter?

I also apologize ahead of time if there is a thread already about this and I missed it.

I don't think they sray into "OP" territory. From what I've seen Necrons are very strong, but not unplayably strong. So go ahead and enjoy having a strong Codex, GW will nurf bash it soon enough.

Well, that's what they did. Everyone complained about the Necron cheese, and GW nerfed it.

 krodarklorr wrote:

pinecone77 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
So, going over the codex again and again, and talking with some friends of mine, I've realized that Necrons, while very well balanced internally, are crazy powerful compared to how they used to be. I've sat down and thought of all the issues I've had fighting against other armies, and no armies out there (save for an entire Imperial Knight army) really threatens me anymore. Necrons see to have an answer for everything, since all of their units are viable now. HQs aren't quite as killy, but more supportive, and arguable harder to kill. Troops are tough as nails. Elites are cheaper and everything has a viable use. Heavy Supports are worth it now. Fast Attack are still good, and even more became good. And the Decurion Detachment is ridiculous. Sure, I personally feel it gives the book it's own flavor, and is very fluffy in itself, but the benefits seem to be too good, when you think about it.

Necrons very well could be the next Eldar in terms of power level, though without a lot of cheese. I don't wanna become "that guy" that nobody wants to play because Necrons are too good.

Do you guys think the power level is in a good spot? Or is it too much to handle compared to other 7th edition codexes? And if it is too much, what can we expect to see from other 7th edition codexes when they start updating them. What are your guy's thoughts on this matter?

I also apologize ahead of time if there is a thread already about this and I missed it.

I don't think they sray into "OP" territory. From what I've seen Necrons are very strong, but not unplayably strong. So go ahead and enjoy having a strong Codex, GW will nurf bash it soon enough.

Well, that's what they did. Everyone complained about the Necron cheese, and GW nerfed it.

They nerfed what needed to be nerfed, but the army still stands as one of the strongest out there right now. While the army might not be the kind to table armies, it certainly stands to reason it will take CONSIDERABLE power to table YOU. Necrons are stupid durable, and even their basic infantry can threaten any threat the game can possibly throw at you (Except, perhaps, invisi star units or something).

Mind Shackling was stupid strong. Way too strong.

Command Barges were silly, but are now more in line. As are Ani-Barges.

Tesla on a whole wasn't THAT bad, I never had an issue facing it to be honest. But they did go a little overboard with that one. I'll give you that.

The amount of formations/buffs your army can get makes me a bit GREEN with envy. (Pun much intended) The Necrons will likely have to play the Objective game now and not just the pew pew game.

Old Tesla predated snap-fire and Fliers so it made sense that those would have gotten changed to not be so good (like Arcing to hit Fliers).

Melevolence wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

pinecone77 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
So, going over the codex again and again, and talking with some friends of mine, I've realized that Necrons, while very well balanced internally, are crazy powerful compared to how they used to be. I've sat down and thought of all the issues I've had fighting against other armies, and no armies out there (save for an entire Imperial Knight army) really threatens me anymore. Necrons see to have an answer for everything, since all of their units are viable now. HQs aren't quite as killy, but more supportive, and arguable harder to kill. Troops are tough as nails. Elites are cheaper and everything has a viable use. Heavy Supports are worth it now. Fast Attack are still good, and even more became good. And the Decurion Detachment is ridiculous. Sure, I personally feel it gives the book it's own flavor, and is very fluffy in itself, but the benefits seem to be too good, when you think about it.

Necrons very well could be the next Eldar in terms of power level, though without a lot of cheese. I don't wanna become "that guy" that nobody wants to play because Necrons are too good.

Do you guys think the power level is in a good spot? Or is it too much to handle compared to other 7th edition codexes? And if it is too much, what can we expect to see from other 7th edition codexes when they start updating them. What are your guy's thoughts on this matter?

I also apologize ahead of time if there is a thread already about this and I missed it.

I don't think they sray into "OP" territory. From what I've seen Necrons are very strong, but not unplayably strong. So go ahead and enjoy having a strong Codex, GW will nurf bash it soon enough.

Well, that's what they did. Everyone complained about the Necron cheese, and GW nerfed it.

They nerfed what needed to be nerfed, but the army still stands as one of the strongest out there right now. While the army might not be the kind to table armies, it certainly stands to reason it will take CONSIDERABLE power to table YOU. Necrons are stupid durable, and even their basic infantry can threaten any threat the game can possibly throw at you (Except, perhaps, invisi star units or something).

Mind Shackling was stupid strong. Way too strong.

Command Barges were silly, but are now more in line. As are Ani-Barges.

Tesla on a whole wasn't THAT bad, I never had an issue facing it to be honest. But they did go a little overboard with that one. I'll give you that.

The amount of formations/buffs your army can get makes me a bit GREEN with envy. (Pun much intended) The Necrons will likely have to play the Objective game now and not just the pew pew game.

Well I'm not arguing Necrons aren't stupid powerful right now, I just feel what "needed" the nerf received it, and everything else is now very well balanced both internally and against other books. But yeah, they are extremely resilient, which is their biggest strength now.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Well I'm not arguing Necrons aren't stupid powerful right now, I just feel what "needed" the nerf received it, and everything else is now very well balanced both internally and against other books. But yeah, they are extremely resilient, which is their biggest strength now.

We'll have to agree to disagree about them being stupid powerful, but I agree with everything else.

misread

Did LVO have some tournament rule that the Decurion counted as the full 2 detachments/sources limit or something?

The Decurion is one detachment, and if the warlord is from within it's the primary one. It's got a different force organisation chart to the usual (core, auxiliary, command), and instead consists of mostly formations, but also individual units. A Decurion with for example Reclamation Legion, 2 Canoptek Harvests and a Destroyer Cult would still be just a single detachment, and if the player wanted, he could ally with a CAD from Codex: Necrons, or any other Codex he wished, and still satisfy the 2 Detachments rule.

So where's the "They weren't allowed to unleash the full power of the Decurion" coming from?

Haha! played my first game with necrons today. Fun.

I played with 60 necron Warriors, 10 Immortals, 2 Monoliths, an Obelisk, 8 Flayed Ones and 3 Crypteks. Made use of the Living Tomb and the Mephrit Resurgance Formation. Good times.

Took on a Blood angels army. He seized and blew a Monolith up. Third time he's seized in three games. Lol.

Other than the Monolith I didn't lose anything else til turn 5 when the Obelik finally gave up the ghost and blew up. Quite resilient force.

Key take away was that melee is the way to beat the Necrons I used, not Dakka. I'm thinking he will bring more bodies and less armor in the future.

Like i said a few pages back: attack the leadership if you can.

 Jancoran wrote:
Like i said a few pages back: attack the leadership if you can.

That makes me think of running a Slaanesh army. Oh that could be hilarious.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Like i said a few pages back: attack the leadership if you can.

That makes me think of running a Slaanesh army. Oh that could be hilarious.

Word. There's also the Haemonculus Coven Formations, each separate formation adding a -1 to LD (I've played that army a lot lately). Normal Dark Eldar can nerf it as well.

Infiltrating units will do well so the Strategic Warlord Traits might be good ones to use.

Instant Death weapons in general are pretty unwelcome so STR 8 Templates might have been good against me, if he had any.

But I will say that the deathless nature of the Necrons can be well emulated o nthe table top. Best weapon against them is sweeping advances.

 Jancoran wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Like i said a few pages back: attack the leadership if you can.

That makes me think of running a Slaanesh army. Oh that could be hilarious.

Word. There's also the Haemonculus Coven Formations, each separate formation adding a -1 to LD (I've played that army a lot lately). Normal Dark Eldar can nerf it as well.

Infiltrating units will do well so the Strategic Warlord Traits might be good ones to use.

Instant Death weapons in general are pretty unwelcome so STR 8 Templates might have been good against me, if he had any.

But I will say that the deathless nature of the Necrons can be well emulated o nthe table top. Best weapon against them is sweeping advances.

Also Legion of the Damned who likes to mess with your leadership, and then benefit from it.

It's a direct nerf to Necrons by tournament organizers to not allow the use o the Decurion Detachment. Out of all of the Detachments every single army has, that's the only single one that is not allowed which is kind of bs.

Just wanted to note, that while I wasn't at the LVO, I do listen to their bi-weekly podcast. On one of the recent episodes they outlined that the Decurion, in its entirety, was just one detachment. Meaning that you could take Decurion(Reclamation Legion) + Decurion(Canoptek Harvest)+Allied CAD/Formation/ etc.

Also of note is that they mentioned that they follow the, admittedly ambiguous, ruling that Wraiths strike at initiative after charging through cover.

Again, even as a Necron player myself, I agree that one tournament doesn't make up for proper testing, there was nothing at the LVO-proper that would hold the Necron back.

Welcome to Dakka Gingir !!

Thank you for that tid bit bout the Decurion. More than a few of us were wondering how that was handled.

Just had my third game with the new codex tonight after not playing for a few weeks. Tried out some Lychguard with a melee Overlord, a Monolith, and the Canoptek formation, as well as your typical reclamation and royal court formations. My friend used Farsight Enclaves Tau, very heavy on battle suits. After almost 3 turns of shooting into the wraiths, he killed 5 out of 6 of them. He killed my spyder by turn 4, but barely put a dent into anything else I had. Heck, my 20 man blob of warriors with the royal court in it sat on an objective most of the game and didn't shoot at anything. I think he maybe killed 3 lychguard after firing his whole army into them turn 5, and one immortal. Oh, and a scarab. It was a close game for the first while as far as objectives goes (I finally got to try my Necron TacOs), but ended up an epic tabling with Warlord Vs. Warlord, and the score was 10-3 anyway.

So, now I'm 3-0 with crons, and can definitely say that, at least in my friend group of casual players, crons are pretty tough.

I got my second game in with Necrons. I had first turn. We played Purge the Alien, Hammer and Anvil.

I deployed a single 10 man Necron Unit with its Cryptek on the board. He deployed everything except his Deep Striking Death Wings (3 of them). I knew they could come in turn one so I decided to play it safe and make sure that I'd get to see where he was coming in before bringing my stuff in and obviously getting the shot off before he could assault would be wise.

i also had the Warlord Trait to manipulate my reserves so i was in really good shape.

And. then... He seized the initiative... And so this is what it looked like turn two...

Rolling perfect six's on their Move move move orders of course in the back there.



DeathWing Incoming Turn one which means in turn two, where this pic is taken, they will be charging... All one could do is retreat and hope!



Those bikes you see? Yeah those are his Black Knights who just outflanked on me at the top of his second round. Soooo....



To make things more fun...

In my turn two, the Obelisk mishap'd, while my second Monolith did also, so he planted the Monlith in my deployment zone of course and then the Obelisk had to go into ongoing reserve. More good news? For my bottom on 2, I shot him 70 times plus nine Staff of Light shots, plus the Monolith fired and killed one Terminator. The only good news was that the Monolith i dropped in his backfield blasted a Wyvern and the Immortals who emerged finished the second one. Still. Tough sledding.

On turn three He annihilated the Monolith he so conveniently placed near his terminators in my Deployment zone, which was the main thing I had to hurt his bikes there. Yup.

Despite, shall we say, the adversity I was able to claw my way back and win 7-6. My MVP's were the Flayed Ones and the obelisk. Despite its delay'd arrival it really did do work once it was on the board (killed a Chimera, a Platoon Commnd and finished the Black Knights). The Flayed ones tilted the melee against the 4+ invul guardsman in my direction round after round.

So, you got very unlucky and, arguably, outplayed and still won.

 koooaei wrote:
So, you got very unlucky and, arguably, outplayed and still won.

Very arguably.

Bad luck isn't getting outplayed. fighting your way back definitely isn't.

That being said, the fun factor here was very high. There's nothing more fun than a come back.