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Just for you Byte.

Which one is more broken?

None of them are "broken". Riptides only excel when supported by Marker Lights, so on its own it's ignorable. DreadKnights are the weaker of the three, has weaker weaponry, and only excels in CC. WraithKnights are the better of the three, having better ranged weapons and higher toughness, yet it is not that great in CC and has to pay for a "downgrade" in order to deal more than 2 wounds a turn at range.

Individually, they are all balanced against each other. Supported is a different story, but even there each of the three remains fairly balanced against each other when supported correctly.

SJ

or would it be more appropriate to ask which one provides the most bang for the points costs?

All three are reliant to different degrees on outside factors... so it makes a direct comparison tough.

Markerlights make the Riptide a legitimate monster at range, but throwing enough Warp-Charges (and a little luck), at giving a Dreadknight Sanctuary and Force, suddenly makes him able to trounce the others in CC.

So, as with most 40k... anything in a bubble isn't generally broken, its just that combinations of circumstances can elevate some units well above their weight-class.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
and only excels in CC.

Wouldn't exactly call a S6 torrent flamer and what is basically a S7 6 shot assault cannon "only excels in CC".

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
All three are reliant to different degrees on outside factors... so it makes a direct comparison tough.

Markerlights make the Riptide a legitimate monster at range, but throwing enough Warp-Charges (and a little luck), at giving a Dreadknight Sanctuary and Force, suddenly makes him able to trounce the others in CC.

So, as with most 40k... anything in a bubble isn't generally broken, its just that combinations of circumstances can elevate some units well above their weight-class.

This is very true.

However, I would argue that Tau have the most reliable other factors, since psykers are not that reliable unless taken in massive numbers (granted, Grey knights can do that quite well).
Ignores cover is really all the riptide needs to become an engine of destruction that lesser codexes fall before.

I would say its Riptide>>Dreadknight>Wraithknight.

That being said, Wraiths above all else

Riptide is the most bent, if you are considering an Ion Accelerator. If not then it's a tossup between the knights.

my 2c:

Riptide is the best for distant killing and anti-reserves.
Wraithknight is faster, has better (ranged) weapons and a freaking T8 6W
Dreadknight is the best melee

Akiasura wrote:
However, I would argue that Tau have the most reliable other factors, since psykers are not that reliable unless taken in massive numbers (granted, Grey knights can do that quite well).
Ignores cover is really all the riptide needs to become an engine of destruction that lesser codexes fall before.

I would say its Riptide>>Dreadknight>Wraithknight.

That being said, Wraiths above all else

Even though the Riptide does not have to worry about Psychic fall out unlike the Dreadknight it is the only one out of the three that can hurt itself 1/3 of the time with no saves of any kind allowed unless it takes an expensive Feel No Pain upgrade. I think Dreadknights are the most powerful based on the fact that they are cheaper, have access to instant death weaponry thanks to their Psychic powers and are much more versatile then the Riptide. Same goes for the Wraithknigt when it comes to versatility, where the Dreadknight and Wraithknight can do damage in close combat te Riptide is truly only a threat at range. I we want to break down supporting options that make each of them great we would get a large variety of different options that may or may not be related.

Riptides are broken as hell with how hard it is to hurt them. The base chassis needs to cost more.

"Dreadknight is the best melee "

Wrong edition for me to worry about that.

Riptide could do to lose a wound. The most telling point to me is that in almost two years, no matter what the points level, every single Tau army I've seen, from pickup game to top tournament, 750pt games to 2000pt games, includes at least one. It might as well be a "1+" selection.

The Dreadknight at it's base is a little cheap for what it does, I don't think it's too bad after kit. It also has the fewest wounds of any of the MC's in question.

The Wraithknight has stats that, until it was released, were solidly and without question reserved for Apocalypse Gargantuan Creatures. The only saving grace is that it lacks an invul save and pays out the nose to get one. If they made this a Lord of War, it'd be less egregious.

Martel732 wrote:

"Dreadknight is the best melee "

Wrong edition for me to worry about that.

For something that can get stuck in, almost anywhere on the board, on turn 2 very reliably, I'm not seeing anything bad about its 7E melee capabilities.

A 30" shunt from 2 of them turn one, with the rest of the army deepstriking starting turn one? You REALLY should be worried about assault!
Wraithknight, due to the fact that(without assistance) the other two have trouble hurting it. Wraithknight is substantially more expensive, so that makes sense.
Edit: ninjad

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
A 30" shunt from 2 of them turn one, with the rest of the army deepstriking starting turn one? You REALLY should be worried about assault!
Wraithknight, due to the fact that(without assistance) the other two have trouble hurting it. Wraithknight is substantially more expensive, so that makes sense.
Edit: ninjad

This is slightly misleading.

The whole army will not be deep striking. It'll be half of the force plus the two dreadknights.
Most armies will have dramatically more firepower then this, even after casualties. Their ability to inflict wounds on the GK and the dreadknights is a lot easier then it is to inflict wounds on a riptide.

Recall, melee being dead has been around since 7th dropped.
I think SW helped bring it back with the TWC. It gave an idea of what worked. Fast, hard hitting, tough units with little to no firepower to speak of that need to touch you.
I think BA told us what didn't work. Hordes of cheap guys that can move quickly but have decent shooting options. In that scenario, I'd rather shoot and melee if I can, but mostly just shoot.

Necrons have brought melee back with wraiths and flayed ones. They are amazing, tough, fast for different reasons, and pump out many attacks that are excellent at destroying troops.
But it is not GK that have made people fear melee. That is very telling, imo.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
A 30" shunt from 2 of them turn one, with the rest of the army deepstriking starting turn one? You REALLY should be worried about assault!
Wraithknight, due to the fact that(without assistance) the other two have trouble hurting it. Wraithknight is substantially more expensive, so that makes sense.
Edit: ninjad

"You REALLY should be worried about assault!"

No, I'm really not. That means all those units are putting themselves in the range of plasma. melta, and Sternguard special ammo and saving me the trouble. Not to mention they are setting themselves up to take BA assaults in the face. The Riptide is constantly dodging those ranges and nuking me off the table in the process. This isn't even a close comparison to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
A 30" shunt from 2 of them turn one, with the rest of the army deepstriking starting turn one? You REALLY should be worried about assault!
Wraithknight, due to the fact that(without assistance) the other two have trouble hurting it. Wraithknight is substantially more expensive, so that makes sense.
Edit: ninjad

Yeah, but I can hurt Wraithknights with lowly krak missiles. I'd rank the Wraith knight the weakest of the three because of its save.

Martel732 wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
A 30" shunt from 2 of them turn one, with the rest of the army deepstriking starting turn one? You REALLY should be worried about assault!
Wraithknight, due to the fact that(without assistance) the other two have trouble hurting it. Wraithknight is substantially more expensive, so that makes sense.
Edit: ninjad

"You REALLY should be worried about assault!"

No, I'm really not. That means all those units are putting themselves in the range of plasma. melta, and Sternguard special ammo and saving me the trouble.

And they're supposed to avoid that entirely...how? And in which edition were they not vulnerable to that?

Not to mention they are setting themselves up to take BA assaults in the face.

Aside from this being a relatively unique set of circumstances, If BA's want to charge a Dreadknight, with anything less than Terminators or an absurdly over-kitted Death Company unit, it's probably not going to end well for them.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
A 30" shunt from 2 of them turn one, with the rest of the army deepstriking starting turn one? You REALLY should be worried about assault!
Wraithknight, due to the fact that(without assistance) the other two have trouble hurting it. Wraithknight is substantially more expensive, so that makes sense.
Edit: ninjad

"You REALLY should be worried about assault!"

No, I'm really not. That means all those units are putting themselves in the range of plasma. melta, and Sternguard special ammo and saving me the trouble.

And they're supposed to avoid that entirely...how? And in which edition were they not vulnerable to that?

Not to mention they are setting themselves up to take BA assaults in the face.

Aside from this being a relatively unique set of circumstances, If BA's want to charge a Dreadknight, with anything less than Terminators or an absurdly over-kitted Death Company unit, it's probably not going to end well for them.

Riptides are immune to all weapons that can't reach them.

I was talking about the rest of the grey knight units that were pointed out. The whole "entire army deep striking" part. Shoot the Dread knights, assault the power armor losers.

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
A 30" shunt from 2 of them turn one, with the rest of the army deepstriking starting turn one? You REALLY should be worried about assault!
Wraithknight, due to the fact that(without assistance) the other two have trouble hurting it. Wraithknight is substantially more expensive, so that makes sense.
Edit: ninjad

"You REALLY should be worried about assault!"

No, I'm really not. That means all those units are putting themselves in the range of plasma. melta, and Sternguard special ammo and saving me the trouble.

And they're supposed to avoid that entirely...how? And in which edition were they not vulnerable to that?

Not to mention they are setting themselves up to take BA assaults in the face.

Aside from this being a relatively unique set of circumstances, If BA's want to charge a Dreadknight, with anything less than Terminators or an absurdly over-kitted Death Company unit, it's probably not going to end well for them.

Riptides are immune to all weapons that can't reach them.

I was talking about the rest of the grey knight units that were pointed out. The whole "entire army deep striking" part. Shoot the Dread knights, assault the power armor losers.

except most GKs these days aren't IN power armor. GKs are useally running terminator heavy lists.

Okay. I can assault them, too. Depending on their loadout, they have less durability/pt anyway.

Martel732 wrote:
Okay. I can assault them, too. Depending on their loadout, they have less durability/pt anyway.

Which is exactly why I think its such a joke that these are marines who fight Daemons regularly, counter-attack needs to be given more freely.

It's amusing to me that most GK power builds and power schemes have absolutely nothing to do with demons. I fought those cheeseballs a lot in 5th. I know how they roll.

Purifier Builds I'm guessing?

Them and interceptors and sometimes laser monkeys. There were REALLY popular at the end of 5th. I got so sick of them. Them and the damn SW. SW: "LULZ look at my grey hunters embarrass all other power armor units IN THE GAME. What? You mad, bro?"

But for the original post: one of these units can lay waste to entire units from 60". The other two can not. Easy decision.

Martel732 wrote:
It's amusing to me that most GK power builds and power schemes have absolutely nothing to do with demons. I fought those cheeseballs a lot in 5th. I know how they roll.

5th edition was 2 editions and 1 codex ago Martel. GKs have been changed a fair bit, hell a lot of the cheese from 5th edition is no longer the case. dreadnought riflemen went from being autotakes to "over costed"

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's amusing to me that most GK power builds and power schemes have absolutely nothing to do with demons. I fought those cheeseballs a lot in 5th. I know how they roll.

5th edition was 2 editions and 1 codex ago Martel. GKs have been changed a fair bit, hell a lot of the cheese from 5th edition is no longer the case. dreadnought riflemen went from being autotakes to "over costed"

They've still got their shunting and dominant mid-range firepower. They are certainly more fair now, I'd say. I'm still burned out on them. I played the crap out of 5th, lol. But hell, I still haven't forgotten CSM from 2nd. To this day, I don't take my foot off the gas against CSM. Tabling is my goal against them

True but besides the DK the only shunt we got is a 25 point model that has the stats of a 14 point model... the GK codex needs another overhaul...

 Quickjager wrote:
True but besides the DK the only shunt we got is a 25 point model that has the stats of a 14 point model... the GK codex needs another overhaul...

Welcome to BA-town. Population: those still getting their heads kicked in by the power codices.

 Quickjager wrote:
True but besides the DK the only shunt we got is a 25 point model that has the stats of a 14 point model... the GK codex needs another overhaul...

eh Interceptors aren't that bad. proably the most useless GKPA right now is purgation squads

My first knee-jerk reaction is the wraithknight, and it most definitely is the most bang-for-buck of the 3.

But the burst cannon skyfire tide is definitely more competitive. The tactical flexibility it provides is amazing.

I sometimes question how Xeno generals play their lists. Lots of people in 5th did mass deep strike with different lists. I called "Decent of Angels" lists "Dead on Arrival" instead. That turn of just standing there is a real killer. Deep strike to me just seems like a real fast way to get your units massacred much of the time.

Martel732 wrote:
I sometimes question how Xeno generals play their lists. Lots of people in 5th did mass deep strike with different lists. I called "Decent of Angels" lists "Dead on Arrival" instead. That turn of just standing there is a real killer. Deep strike to me just seems like a real fast way to get your units massacred much of the time.

It's that alpha strike, but then it's crap if you don't know where to put them or when to realise not to deep strike instead.