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"Take all comers" and "balanced", how funny does that sound, especially when it means "spam the best units".

It is clear that there is something wrong with units such as Riptide and Wraithknight, when are in every list. No one complains about facing a list with three dreadnoughts, can anyone guess why?

I acquired Tau, with 3 Riptides, to become That Guy. And they are only good because of the Markerlights? Fine, Tau got plenty of those to go around. You shouldn't look at the units in a vacuum, though.

Naw wrote:
"Take all comers" and "balanced", how funny does that sound, especially when it means "spam the best units".

It is clear that there is something wrong with units such as Riptide and Wraithknight, when are in every list. No one complains about facing a list with three dreadnoughts, can anyone guess why?

I acquired Tau, with 3 Riptides, to become That Guy. And they are only good because of the Markerlights? Fine, Tau got plenty of those to go around. You shouldn't look at the units in a vacuum, though.

Not sure what you're trying to say here.
Marker lights make riptides really good or riptides are in fact only good with markers?

Agree with you about no vacuum though.

Naw wrote:


I acquired Tau, with 3 Riptides, to become That Guy. And they are only good because of the Markerlights? Fine, Tau got plenty of those to go around. You shouldn't look at the units in a vacuum, though.

I can play up to 5 tides including a 109 in a 2k game. I never use marker lights. They work out just fine.

The Riptide is only broken when it has FNP combined with the nova shield and pathfinders.

The FNP costs 35pts and without it I think its silly to go for the nova shield and even then your gonna lose one wound every 6 turns. A squad of pathfinders to back him up is another 55 points.

Enough Plasma, Grav, or a close combat unit with jump pack and AP2 weapon will take it down easily. If you can't take it down go for the markerlights and it'll miss half the time.

Wraithknight is worse in my opinion, At least S4 can wound a Riptide.

Akiasura wrote:

Markerlights ignoring cover after just one light (-2 per light seems fair).

It's Ignore cover for 2 counters.

Akiasura wrote:
The reason that Tau get a lot of hate is they are supposed to be a mobile short range firepower list with mini gundams providing heavy weapons and alien allies providing melee support.

According to what? In most pieces of fluff one of the biggest Tau advantages are range and mobility.

Akiasura wrote:
They are instead a gunline army that, with the exception of a few units, just sit there and target units. This is chiefly due to the way markerlights and riptides work. It's very annoying to see a player just sit there, point at a unit, delete it, and move on to the next. People never enjoy a campy playstyle, in any game (look at SSB campy players if you want to see true hatred, or old school Street fighter Guile playstyle).

Agreed 100%. Tau get more flak than many other stronger armies (like Daemons, old Necrons or SM) just because for many armies it's just no fun to play against.

Akiasura wrote:
I agree with this. Dreadnoughts have been lame forever, let's buff them and lords, along with brutes, and remove the new MC walkers.

Honestly I've never understood the need for MCs. Why not just have infantry and vehicles and be done with it? I really fail to see what couldn't have been solved by classifying a unit as either of them.

Taffy17 wrote:

The FNP costs 35pts and without it I think its silly to go for the nova shield and even then your gonna lose one wound every 6 turns. A squad of pathfinders to back him up is another 55 points.
.

It's 1 wound every 3 turns, you need 3+ to Nova.

Yeah, I was meaning with FNP, so about 1 every 5/6 turns.

Taffy17 wrote:
The Riptide is only broken when it has FNP combined with the nova shield and pathfinders.

The FNP costs 35pts and without it I think its silly to go for the nova shield and even then your gonna lose one wound every 6 turns. A squad of pathfinders to back him up is another 55 points.

Enough Plasma, Grav, or a close combat unit with jump pack and AP2 weapon will take it down easily. If you can't take it down go for the markerlights and it'll miss half the time.

Wraithknight is worse in my opinion, At least S4 can wound a Riptide.

It takes roughly 73 bolter at bs 4 shots to wound a riptide. I would consider that to be impervious to such firepower in game terms.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
The Riptide is only broken when it has FNP combined with the nova shield and pathfinders.

The FNP costs 35pts and without it I think its silly to go for the nova shield and even then your gonna lose one wound every 6 turns. A squad of pathfinders to back him up is another 55 points.

Enough Plasma, Grav, or a close combat unit with jump pack and AP2 weapon will take it down easily. If you can't take it down go for the markerlights and it'll miss half the time.

Wraithknight is worse in my opinion, At least S4 can wound a Riptide.

It takes roughly 73 bolter at bs 4 shots to wound a riptide. I would consider that to be impervious to such firepower in game terms.

By that token surely the wraithknight is harder. It's impossible to wound with any weapon under S5. All whilst it jumps at you with great speed.

They are both impervious to bolter fire; one totally and the other in effect. That is also assuming that the Riptide ever gets within bolter range.

You guys must be playing on super wide board for the Riptide to be always out of range...

 gmaleron wrote:
You guys must be playing on super wide board for the Riptide to be always out of range...

That's something that I've always wondered; how do they always stay out of range :L

SGTPozy wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
You guys must be playing on super wide board for the Riptide to be always out of range...

That's something that I've always wondered; how do they always stay out of range :L

I'm a greyknight - everything is out of range until I alpha strike everything into your face. In the case I wasn't doing this I wouldnt have a chance vs riptides.

 gmaleron wrote:
You guys must be playing on super wide board for the Riptide to be always out of range...

The units that deign to try to get within range get shot off the board. Rinse and repeat. Rinse and repeat until all Astartes are dead. And it's not like getting a single unit within range cuts it, either.

 Xenomancers wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
You guys must be playing on super wide board for the Riptide to be always out of range...

That's something that I've always wondered; how do they always stay out of range :L

I'm a greyknight - everything is out of range until I alpha strike everything into your face. In the case I wasn't doing this I wouldnt have a chance vs riptides.

Yes, but Grey Knights are ONE army, what I meant was all armies. Yeah, I get that you have short-range guns but most armies have longer-range guns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
You guys must be playing on super wide board for the Riptide to be always out of range...

The units that deign to try to get within range get shot off the board. Rinse and repeat. Rinse and repeat until all Astartes are dead. And it's not like getting a single unit within range cuts it, either.

Marines are half of the armies but the other half are fine at it (anyway, you guys have your ridiculously cheap drop pods to get close).

There are two problems with drop pods.

The Tau player can arrange their units in such a manner to not allow drops against Riptides. Or, alternatively, make sure that whatever does drop in only fires once, and then dies. One volley is not enough to drop a Riptide.

The other problem with drop pods is that the units are foot after the drop pod comes down. Given the JSJ in the Tau army, many of their elements, including Riptides, can literally just run away, and the marines have no recourse.

I don't consider drop pods undercosted at all, given that they are one use transports and the units coming from them can't assault. That gives the opponent a full round to shoot apart and/or spoiling assault the contents of the pods. Drop pods also piecemeal your list unless you pay to get extra empty pods. I consider podded units a pretty big gamble, actually.

As for the long range weapons, I've seen AM lists that lack enough AP 2 shots to give Riptides a worry. I've seen DE loose so much ranged AP 2 so quickly that they were helpless before the Riptides as well. It's not just a marine problem. Ranged AP 2 is expensive, and usually single shot. One needs huge volumes of fire to reliably kill even a single Riptide at range. It's really quite untenable for most non-marine lists as well.

Any army can do that first point to protect their best units... Why wouldn't you do that?

Yes, one volley of plasma fire may not be enough... But two is more than enough and since they don't mishap then it is very 'point and click'.

Yes, but where are they running to? If they are running away from the drop pods then they are running towards the rest if the army.

So 35 points for an AV 12 12 12 open opped vehicle that deep strikes turn one and does not mishap is correctly priced? It should cost 70 points minimum because of how gimmicky it is (Tyranids pay 75 points for their version).

7th is a shooty edition so you put shooty units inside like Sternguard. While you cannot assault you can still shoot and why are you surprised that they cannot charge? Others cannot assault from deep strike so why should you be able to. Oh right, its because you're Space Marines.

SGTPozy wrote:
Any army can do that first point to protect their best units... Why wouldn't you do that?

Yes, one volley of plasma fire may not be enough... But two is more than enough and since they don't mishap then it is very 'point and click'.

Yes, but where are they running to? If they are running away from the drop pods then they are running towards the rest if the army.

So 35 points for an AV 12 12 12 open opped vehicle that deep strikes turn one and does not mishap is correctly priced? It should cost 70 points minimum because of how gimmicky it is (Tyranids pay 75 points for their version).

7th is a shooty edition so you put shooty units inside like Sternguard. While you cannot assault you can still shoot and why are you surprised that they cannot charge? Others cannot assault from deep strike so why should you be able to. Oh right, its because you're Space Marines.

Go ahead, make them 70 pts. I don't use them much anyway. I think they are highly, highly overrated.

Two volleys of plasma fire probably won't do it either. Not trying to get through 3++/FNP. Also, a good Tau general won't get two pods drop within plasma double tap range.

" does not mishap"

They do mishap if they scatter off the board. Use that to your advantage. I don't think units should be able to assault from deep strike in a pod. That was not my implication. My point was that because you can not do that, pods are very, very high risk transports. Frankly, I often welcome a drop list.

A big part of playing against drop lists is looking at what they have loaded in them and optimizing your setup to mitigate their damage. If you can do that, most drop lists fold up quickly.

Martel I hate to tell you this but you're being very negative. Riptides aren't infallable, you just need to have some measures in place.

A BA drop pod list could be very useful to counter Tau.

For example take 2 BA command squads and put triple plasma guns on them in pods. That's a potential 12 shots.
Rippy won't be shooting back with the blast because you'll be in 1-2" of Tau models, therefore will likely miss.
Each squad costs 180 points and has FnP.

Just one idea.

An alternative is to drop a tactical squad in with 4 flamers and loads of bolters and destroy some firewarriors or other suits.
Depending on the target you could get a lot of wounds on a squad.

Always accept everything you drop is expendable and kill some Tau.

At most there will be 2-3 units intercepting at any given time. Missile sides will hurt but most commonly the riptide won't do much.

I know from personal experience mine misses a lot.

Get back on the horse and kick some butt. You're a marine aren't you? You know no fear.

That's just the problem. Marines aren't expendable. The drop pod suicide idea would work much better with cheap troops and cheap models in general.

Most Tau players I play against don't have EWO on the Riptides. They just use clever positioning so Astartes can't get plasma/melta drops on them and then just shoot normally on their turn to devastating effect.

Drop pod schemes are very limited in that you can only drop what your opponent lets you drop. Tau will put their expendable units out to suck up the drop damage and then massacre the Astartes on the subsequent turn. There's a reason DoA lists in 5th were called "Dead on Arrival". You can game against drop pods lists quite severely.

Drop lists are ALWAYS fighting with one hand behind their back because of paying for pods that don't contribute firepower and the piecemealed nature of their deployment. They are taking a huge risk that 1200 or so pts dropped can take on your entire list of 1850-2000. That's a hard task, especially when the Xeno general knows exactly what is coming.

In the end analysis, Riptides are far more infallible than pods. I can't bubblewrap units to protect them from the Riptide. I can't get cover from it. I can't out range it. I can't catch it to assault it, even with BA. Pods frequently spit out expensive models that are only going to get to shoot once. I don't know why anyone thinks this is a good winning strategy in general. Make sure they are shooting Kroot or Firewarriors and you just won right there, as you will cause double or triple the point value in damage back on your shooting phase because the drop failed to cause a significant reduction in Tau firepower.

"Rippy won't be shooting back with the blast because you'll be in 1-2" of Tau models, therefore will likely miss. "

That's why they leave off the EWO and just move their guys out of the way the old fashioned way on their turn and forget interceptor. It works much better.

I'm pretty negative because I'm like 1-13 against Tau since their 6th ed codex dropped.

I'm thinking about trying to for triple drop Furioso, but that's hard to work into a TAC list.

LordBlades wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

Markerlights ignoring cover after just one light (-2 per light seems fair).

It's Ignore cover for 2 counters.

Whoops, you are right. -1 cover per light then would most likely be fair

LordBlades wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
The reason that Tau get a lot of hate is they are supposed to be a mobile short range firepower list with mini gundams providing heavy weapons and alien allies providing melee support.

According to what? In most pieces of fluff one of the biggest Tau advantages are range and mobility.

According to their old codexes, which list the kroot being brought on specifically as melee/scouts, since the tau disdain such strategies.
Tau are sold as a very mobile force, but gameplay is quite different.

LordBlades wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
They are instead a gunline army that, with the exception of a few units, just sit there and target units. This is chiefly due to the way markerlights and riptides work. It's very annoying to see a player just sit there, point at a unit, delete it, and move on to the next. People never enjoy a campy playstyle, in any game (look at SSB campy players if you want to see true hatred, or old school Street fighter Guile playstyle).

Agreed 100%. Tau get more flak than many other stronger armies (like Daemons, old Necrons or SM) just because for many armies it's just no fun to play against.

Yeah, nobody likes to play against a camper.

LordBlades wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
I agree with this. Dreadnoughts have been lame forever, let's buff them and lords, along with brutes, and remove the new MC walkers.

Honestly I've never understood the need for MCs. Why not just have infantry and vehicles and be done with it? I really fail to see what couldn't have been solved by classifying a unit as either of them.

Well, nids and demons probably need them. That's about it though.

LordBlades wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:

The FNP costs 35pts and without it I think its silly to go for the nova shield and even then your gonna lose one wound every 6 turns. A squad of pathfinders to back him up is another 55 points.
.

It's 1 wound every 3 turns, you need 3+ to Nova.

BAO 2014 Top Ten - One Tau
LVO 2014 Top Eight - No Tau
Nova Open 2014 Top Sixteen - One Tau.

Both Tau lists ran 3x Riptides. No Tau player took #1 or #2.

They (Tau. Riptides) aren't as competitive or game-breaking as the vocal minority would make you believe.

Of course, if you take a non-optimized list against 3x Riptides, you're going to have trouble. Same can be said of 3x Wraithknights or 3x Dreadknights.

If I could rank them, it'd be #1) Wraithknight, #2) Riptide, #3) Dreadknight.

Let's talk synergy, since I've seen that tossed around here. Yes, Riptides synergies well with marker lights. But Tau marker lights are easy to kill.

The Wraithknight synergies with the current Eldar meta very well. DA Serpent Spam + Swooping Hawks/Spiders obliterate most troops. The Wraithknight is then the perfect counter to Vehicles/MCs with it's 2x s10ap1, 1/6 Insta Kill weapons. With toughness 8, they're very tough to kill. They've got all their bases covered.

andbreak wrote:
BAO 2014 Top Ten - One Tau
LVO 2014 Top Eight - No Tau
Nova Open 2014 Top Sixteen - One Tau.

Both Tau lists ran 3x Riptides. No Tau player took #1 or #2.

They (Tau. Riptides) aren't as competitive or game-breaking as the vocal minority would make you believe.

Of course, if you take a non-optimized list against 3x Riptides, you're going to have trouble. Same can be said of 3x Wraithknights or 3x Dreadknights.

If I could rank them, it'd be #1) Wraithknight, #2) Riptide, #3) Dreadknight.

Let's talk synergy, since I've seen that tossed around here. Yes, Riptides synergies well with marker lights. But Tau marker lights are easy to kill.

The Wraithknight synergies with the current Eldar meta very well. DA Serpent Spam + Swooping Hawks/Spiders obliterate most troops. The Wraithknight is then the perfect counter to Vehicles/MCs with it's 2x s10ap1, 1/6 Insta Kill weapons. With toughness 8, they're very tough to kill. They've got all their bases covered.

Well, in fairness, there were probably no Grey Knights who won any of those competitions, either

I'm pretty sure someone mentioned it on another post, but terrain makes all the world of difference. If you play terrain-heavy urban maps using staggered GW buildings, Riptides and gunlines are suddenly a lot weaker -- all that range matters not at all, if you can't see more than 12" without hitting a 4 story building, where every walkway is only 1.5" wide (preventing your Riptides from ever being anything other than ground level). Add some single-file infantry-only (35mm) alleyways, and MCs get murdered. Switch that over to an 8' open table with a hills on each corner and nothing in between, and the Dreadknights should just concede.

Now, granted that both are extreme, but when you go into FLGS, many games are very terrain light because store selection is limited and people don't want to carry 15 cases of buildings and hills. However, my experience is that at homes of enthusiasts, the games are much more terrain heavy, because they happen to have a lots of cool, painted terrain that they want to play with.

To be fair, Riptides aren't the only ones that can hurt themselves trying to boost their saves. Dreadknights can do it too if you'd like a better than 50% chance for a 4++ invulnerable save.

Sure it might not happen as much but anything that can potentially completely kill the model in one go on it's own turn by itself should be counted right?

Akiasura wrote:

Whoops, you are right. -1 cover per light then would most likely be fair

Or you could just leave them as they are,given how fragile the Markerlight units are. Everyone who complains about Markerlights acts as if Pathfinders have Land Raider stats. In actual game they go down to any kind of serious firepower. You only need to take down 2 guys from a 5 man Pathfinder unit to make it unlikely for the Tau player to get the 2 counters needed for Ignore Cover.

Akiasura wrote:
According to their old codexes, which list the kroot being brought on specifically as melee/scouts, since the tau disdain such strategies.
Tau are sold as a very mobile force, but gameplay is quite different.

Many armies play different than the fluff. Hell, even SM, who is probably the most popular army. I don't recall too much SM fluff where it's all about the Grav bikes and cents (and tac suqads and termies suck) for example.

EDIT: In regard to 'nobody likes to play against a camper': unless the basic rules change enough so that assault is no longer the red headed step child of game strategies, one army will be the best at shooting. And for that army it will make most sense to do everything they can to keep the enemy at range, thus makimg the most of being more shooty. I can fully understand the frustration this playstyle brings, but if it's not going to be Tau, it's going to be somebody else. Camping isn't the 'Tau playstyle', but rather 'the shootiest army playstyle, and someone will always hold that spot.

Riptide is best at range. The Dreadknight and Wraithknights are more balanced and both are excellent in melee. In 1v1, the Dreadknight will most likely beat both others, but in large games, the Riptide is the best.

I have limited experience, but I dislike the riptide the most. Fully kitted out, it just seems too cheap for what it brings.

As for the tau playstyle... There will always be a shootiest army out there, sure. I just wish it wasn't tau, who completely ignore all phases of the game except shooting. I think it's horrible game design that the most common tau army, the gunline will only move or take part in the assault phase if their enemies force them to - it makes the game boring for both players.

I'd be okay with tau having all the pew pew, but make it more fun. In my experience, in an any race vs. tau fight, the non-tau player moans until he makes it to close combat or wins the shooting battle (Gork knows how you do that) and the tau player moans whenever he actually has to move his models and roll for close combat attacks. In my opinion, that's a bad sign.

 Mumblez wrote:
I have limited experience, but I dislike the riptide the most. Fully kitted out, it just seems too cheap for what it brings.

As for the tau playstyle... There will always be a shootiest army out there, sure. I just wish it wasn't tau, who completely ignore all phases of the game except shooting. I think it's horrible game design that the most common tau army, the gunline will only move or take part in the assault phase if their enemies force them to - it makes the game boring for both players.

I'd be okay with tau having all the pew pew, but make it more fun. In my experience, in an any race vs. tau fight, the non-tau player moans until he makes it to close combat or wins the shooting battle (Gork knows how you do that) and the tau player moans whenever he actually has to move his models and roll for close combat attacks. In my opinion, that's a bad sign.

Astra Militarum, the other pure gunline army of the game also just stands there and shoots. Well, they occasionally roll some dice in the psychic phase too.

IMO there is no solution to making pure gunlines fun. Their best chance at winning is shooting you to death, so they will do their best to keep you in a position where they can shoot you to death.If getting into melee is hard, then playing vs. pure gunlines is frustrating. If getting unto melee is easy, then pure gunlines need to be altered so that they have a chance in melee, therefore ceasing to be pure gunlines.

LordBlades wrote:

 Mumblez wrote:
I have limited experience, but I dislike the riptide the most. Fully kitted out, it just seems too cheap for what it brings.

As for the tau playstyle... There will always be a shootiest army out there, sure. I just wish it wasn't tau, who completely ignore all phases of the game except shooting. I think it's horrible game design that the most common tau army, the gunline will only move or take part in the assault phase if their enemies force them to - it makes the game boring for both players.

I'd be okay with tau having all the pew pew, but make it more fun. In my experience, in an any race vs. tau fight, the non-tau player moans until he makes it to close combat or wins the shooting battle (Gork knows how you do that) and the tau player moans whenever he actually has to move his models and roll for close combat attacks. In my opinion, that's a bad sign.

Astra Militarum, the other pure gunline army of the game also just stands there and shoots. Well, they occasionally roll some dice in the psychic phase too.

IMO there is no solution to making pure gunlines fun. Their best chance at winning is shooting you to death, so they will do their best to keep you in a position where they can shoot you to death.If getting into melee is hard, then playing vs. pure gunlines is frustrating. If getting unto melee is easy, then pure gunlines need to be altered so that they have a chance in melee, therefore ceasing to be pure gunlines.

That's a fair point, I had forgotten about IG/AM.

Yeah, gunlines are sadly just a concept that is awesome in theory, but makes for incredibly boring and/or frustrating games.

Also, I didn't mean getting to assault is difficult, I feel it's in a sweet spot right now, the units that need to, can be made durable enough to make it.. That, and I'm a green tide ork player, so I have no complaints.

Maybe if Ignores Cover wasn't so easy to get for tau it'd make fighting against them a bit better? It's a wee bit demoralizing just removing model after model, after all.

Just pointing out that SM ignore the most rules, not Tau.

SGTPozy wrote:
Just pointing out that SM ignore the most rules, not Tau.

It depends on how you look at it. ATSKNF has become far less important than it was in 3rd ed because of the high casualty rates.