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 gmaleron wrote:
Now your REALLY getting technical, if they are bubble wrapping their Riptides in Fire Warriors then flamers are your answer. Also being Blood Angels you can get several cheap flamer heavy squads in Drop Pods to deal with the problem. Also by doing that if you wipe everything out BUT the Riptides then you are in an advantageous position. And again you are making blind statements and personal experiences with no proof that they cannot be done, I've seen Riptides dropped by plasma Sternguard more then once. You don't have to agree with me, but saying "This is how it always is" is a very hypocritical statement as the Imperium has just as nasty stuff and just blind ignorance.

So I have to drop in flamer guys to try to clear the bubblewrap, watch them die on your turn, THEN try to send in more guys who get one shot at maybe killing a Ritpide before they die, too? And this is what you fear from drop pods? Really? Not all my lists have drop flamers, and the ones that do have one unit. TAC is a harsh mistress. Nothing in the BA codex is "cheap", either. Merely less expensive than it used to be. Throwing away 14 pt models adds up really, really fast. And that's the cheapest model I can cram in a drop pod. Your proposed solutions keep going back to advance knowledge of playing a Tau opponent. That is to say, list tailoring. I'm talking about running into Riptides in a non-tailored situation.

Ah yes, the plasma Sternguard. This, to me, is a very list tailored approach. But let's entertain this notion.

10 sternguard cost 220 pts. 10 combis are 100 pts more. 35 for the pod brings it to 355pts.

So we are going to drop this in and assume you get within 12". Because if you don't, you have no hope of killing the Riptide.

20 shots * .667 *. 667 = 8.9 wounds. That's a lot of AP 2 wounds, but this is the Riptide we are talking about here.

So, 66% of the time, the Riptide will have a 3++/FNP save. This brings cleared wounds down to 2.0 wounds.

The other 33% of the time, we have a 5++/FNP save. This clears 4.0 wounds.

Weighing these numbers, (.667*2.0)+(.333*4.0), we get 2.7 wounds averaged across many games.

So the marine player pays 355 pts to inflict 2.7 wounds to the Riptide, and then have the unit obliterated the next turn by the Tau army. This does not take into account Sternguard that kill themselves with gets hot! That number is only around 1.1, but it does have the effect of costing the marine player one 32 pt model, while killing NOTHING in return. The Ritpide fights just as well with 3 wounds on it as it does with no wounds. It doesn't get stunned or shaken like a tank, either. I'll also add that these marines never get to fire their special ammo or assault. In my view, that marine player just threw 355 pts down the toilet.

So you've seen outliers to the above math. Good for you. That's the definition of anecdotal, however. The math is not in the marine player's favor at all. And that's sacrificing a unit that costs considerably more than the target Riptide!

This is all the while assuming the Tau player does not take precautions against the drop pod full of plasma *that he knows is coming in*. Would you tell me that you would not make sure that these guys can't drop within 12" of your Riptides? Or are you claiming that standard marine lists have more than one Sternguard squad with 10X combi plasmas? Because I'm saying the average list has zero Sternguards with combiplasmas, because sternguard combis are a poor value now.


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Sorry I did math wrong above. Hold on for correction.

Sorry, I was under the happy delusion that my plasma guns were wounding on "2's". Silly me. This is T6 we are talking about. The new, even more depressing math has been updated.


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For your homework project, figure out how many lascannon shots it takes to replicate the numbers above. Then consider how many of said lascannons are actually in a typical marine list. Yeah, it's that bad.

Who the hell just said all the Imperium of Man Heavy weapons are 48 inches? Thats bs and shows you know nothing you're talking about.

Autocannon and Lascannon are the only ones with that range. Then Heavy Bolter and Plasma Cannon @ 36; Psycannon, Assault Cannon, and Multi-Melta @ 24.

Don't make me roll my eyes.

 Quickjager wrote:
Who the hell just said all the Imperium of Man Heavy weapons are 48 inches? Thats bs and shows you know nothing you're talking about.

Autocannon and Lascannon are the only ones with that range. Then Heavy Bolter and Plasma Cannon @ 36; Psycannon, Assault Cannon, and Multi-Melta @ 24.

Don't make me roll my eyes.

I chose not to address that point, since the only one that matters in this conversation is the lascannon. Despite that it was patently incorrect. Picking my battles and all that.

The answer to YOUR question is LordBlades.

At this point anything you say is all biased due to your personal experiences with the Tau and the apparent lack of adaptability you are willing to do with your list. Also again keep bringing up the Nova Charge, it is not as sure of thing as the "statistics" suggest, welcome to dice games. Bottom line its not getting fixed anytime soon and all it needs is a slight point decrease, get over it.

 gmaleron wrote:
At this point anything you say is all biased due to your personal experiences with the Tau and the apparent lack of adaptability you are willing to do with your list. Also again keep bringing up the Nova Charge, it is not as sure of thing as the "statistics" suggest, welcome to dice games. Bottom line its not getting fixed anytime soon and all it needs is a slight point decrease, get over it.

Translation: I can't refute your math, even though the calculations took the Nova Charge roll into account, so I'm going to stomp off without conceding anything. Even though the actual facts refute every claim I've made this entire thread. And throw in your face how OP my unit is.

I've shown you how a full plasma sternguard squad can't reliably kill one even under optimal conditions. But there's nothing wrong. Nothing at all. There is no possible adaptation when one of the most tailored possible units still can't get it done.

" it is not as sure of thing as the "statistics" suggest"

Really? It sure seems like a 66% chance to me. Or are statistics wrong, now, too?

It seems SGTPozy may have spoke a bit too soon.

Martel I use to run drop pod crimson fists... Never had any trouble taking down a Riptide with sternguard and sheer volume of saves I forced it to make. Also, I didn't use lascannons. Bolters did fine.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Martel I use to run drop pod crimson fists... Never had any trouble taking down a Riptide with sternguard and sheer volume of saves I forced it to make. Also, I didn't use lascannons. Bolters did fine.

I find that fascinating, as even the poison ammo bolters require around 45 wounds dealt to bring one down. Hook me up with whatever chapter tactic lets you do that.

Get new dice? Your rolls must really suck or luck is never on your side. You can borrow Mine.

How many Sternguard did you run? By my calculation three full squads in rapid fire range using the poison rounds will put the Riptide on one wound.

What kind of luck lets you inflict 45 wounds with say, 40 shots? That's two full sternguard squads unloading all their shots, hitting with everything, and wounding with everything. And they'll still statistically fall a bit short.

The odds of all 40 hitting to begin with are 1/8.2 X 10^-20.

Roughly 50 with everything in pods? Sorry you don't have as good of luck martel, as far as what kind I guess if I put a label, boss luck? Tau have never been that difficult. Take out what's important and play the mission and you win every time. Our tau player is now selling them for harlies since he is tired of the rest of the players dancing around in maelstrom.

 Quickjager wrote:
How many Sternguard did you run? By my calculation three full squads in rapid fire range using the poison rounds will put the Riptide on one wound.

That sounds right. If you need 30 22 pt models to inflict 4 wounds, that's not "no problem". That's "heroic effort". Which has been my claim all along.


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Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Roughly 50 with everything in pods? Sorry you don't have as good of luck martel, as far as what kind I guess if I put a label, boss luck? Tau have never been that difficult. Take out what's important and play the mission and you win every time. Our tau player is now selling them for harlies since he is tired of the rest of the players dancing around in maelstrom.

You got 50 Sternguard all within rapid fire range of a single Riptide? Really? Even if this were a thing, you are still shooting an entire ARMY at a single 220-250 ish model to kill it.

I guess you only read the number not the post? *sigh* I see why most in this thread have given up on you. Poor, poor soul. Well, helpless will be helpless.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I guess you only read the number not the post? *sigh* I see why most in this thread have given up on you. Poor, poor soul. Well, helpless will be helpless.

Playing objectives has nothing to do with killing Riptides. At least, not directly. I never once claimed that you couldn't beat Tau on objectives. I personally assumed most people bailed because they couldn't refute my sternguard post.

10 Sternguard with plasma's in a pod, ultramarines chapter tactics. Half the time you'll go first before he can activate nova shield.

20 plasma shots, re-rolling 1s to hit, wounding on 3's, that 5++ will look pretty fallible after that.

Unless he's hiding behind a high wall or you do crazy scatter (which you shouldn't with a pod) he'll have a 5+ cover save at best and you should be in rapid fire range.

He fires his whole army at your Sternguard and kills them? Great that means the rest of your army can close him down.

Taffy17 wrote:
10 Sternguard with plasma's in a pod, ultramarines chapter tactics. Half the time you'll go first before he can activate nova shield.

20 plasma shots, re-rolling 1s to hit, wounding on 3's, that 5++ will look pretty fallible after that.

Unless he's hiding behind a high wall or you do crazy scatter (which you shouldn't with a pod) he'll have a 5+ cover save at best and you should be in rapid fire range.

He fires his whole army at your Sternguard and kills them? Great that means the rest of your army can close him down.

It doesn't take an entire Tau army to kill 10 sternguard. I already did the math for what you just talked about, except for the rerolling 1's part. Also, you also made the not-so-good assumption of getting to double tap range.

Also, UM chapter tactics lets tac squads reroll, not Sternguard.

why's it not so good? riptides base is about 3" wide at its thinnest. you just have to get out your pod within 3" of his deployment to be 12" away, not that hard.

Edit: that's assuming he's set up so you can't deepstrike in his deployment zone

Someone did this to me with 5 marines and I lost 3 wounds.

Taffy17 wrote:
why's it not so good? riptides base is about 3" wide at its thinnest. you just have to get out your pod within 3" of his deployment to be 12" away, not that hard.

Someone did this to me with 5 marines and I lost 3 wounds.

Because of bubblewrapping. And using the table edge. Riptides can be set up in strange places because their range is basically infinity.

Wait wait martel, you don't want us to take into account tau is easy to beat by focusing on the mission but you're going to take bubblewrapping into account to keep it alive longer? idk why you have such a hard time with riptides but I'm sorry they aren't that good. I now play orks.. and instead of shoot them to death I beat them to death.. deal is riptides are not scary. At all. Or even op in the slightest.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Wait wait martel, you don't want us to take into account tau is easy to beat by focusing on the mission but you're going to take bubblewrapping into account to keep it alive longer? idk why you have such a hard time with riptides but I'm sorry they aren't that good. I now play orks.. and instead of shoot them to death I beat them to death.. deal is riptides are not scary. At all. Or even op in the slightest.

So you claim.

I don't care if you take objectives into account, but the thread was about Riptide vs other units. NOT whether Tau can be beat.

The threat was about Dreadknights, Riptide, and wraithknights.. not riptides lol. Get it right please.

It wasn't about "riptide vs other units". Its a comparison of 3 monstrous creatures.

But you seem to have forgotten about the others and instead of comparing, which is what the thread is about, your just complaining

Martel732 wrote:
Translation: I can't refute your math, even though the calculations took the Nova Charge roll into account, so I'm going to stomp off without conceding anything. Even though the actual facts refute every claim I've made this entire thread. And throw in your face how OP my unit is.

I've shown you how a full plasma sternguard squad can't reliably kill one even under optimal conditions. But there's nothing wrong. Nothing at all. There is no possible adaptation when one of the most tailored possible units still can't get it done.

" it is not as sure of thing as the "statistics" suggest"

Really? It sure seems like a 66% chance to me. Or are statistics wrong, now, too?

It seems SGTPozy may have spoke a bit too soon.

Translation: Im going to continue to spout of statistics constantly in a game that is only based partially on that to try and justify that a unit that I struggle against continues to beat me. This while ignoring the fact that we addressed issues with your army list and apparent problems with terrain being set up on apparently ENOURMOUS tables where you can never reach a Riptide with any gun at decent range in this and in earlier threads. Think what you want dude, you rely on statistics like they are perfect all the time when guess what, its a dice game things happen. Mathahmmer does not solve everything like you would wish it to, and guess what no "stomping off here" im just pointing out your continued crying about Riptides is annoying and all your "solutions" to the problem are WAY to drastic. Hell multiple people on this thread have pointed this out that your crying about Riptides is completely misplaced. They are NOT OP as much as you would wish them to be now man up or keep trying to convince people of an opinion based on your personal experiences.

On top of that when people try to give you advice you scoff at them and say it "doesn't work" or "no point on trying it the Tau are mean" proving that you are unwilling to change up your tactics or strategy in order to beat in army. You sound like "this is how I play my army and the way I play my army should beat any army I face so we need to nerf the other armies and their good units in order for me to do that". Sorry bud the game does not work that way. Be willing to trade things up and try new things, and instead of constantly crying about Riptides, look at Tactica threads on how to beat them with Blood Angels or whatever else you play. Be constructive and stop being such a negative Nancy because bottom line, the Riptide is not getting changed anytime soon and if it does it only needs a few tweaks, not the nerfing into the ground you so desire.

The riptide is very strong against most targets, but send it up against any other monstrous creature and it will get killed.

If it was to pick on something it's own size it would get owned.

Taffy17 wrote:
The riptide is very strong against most targets, but send it up against any other monstrous creature and it will get killed.

If it was to pick on something it's own size it would get owned.

Swarm armies can give a Riptide heavy army fits to, especially Demon puppy spam as there are so many points tied up in x3 MC's it really effects the armies shot output. Where the Dreadknight in particular excels with it being so cheap in points cost, and where both the Dread and Wraithknight excel thanks to being dual purpose. Why I have them ranked Dreadknight-Wraithiknight then Riptide based on overall performance and capabilities.

Taffy you're correct shooting wise. Got Pedro kantor in melee with a Riptide by himself and he proceeded to crumble it into a ball and throw it off the "backfield" that martel spoke of

That too gmaleron.

Squad of marines, easy, aspect warriors, no trouble, (jet)bikes? fine with markerlights, 30 orcs? maybe not, flying daemon prince? nope, wraithknight? nope, imperial knight? definitely not

This is getting sad at this point. Just because there are a greater number of posters disagreeing with Martel doesn't mean he is wrong. In fact, I agree with pretty much everything he's posted so far.

I've seen him post a statistical argument, which was waived away and as a result mostly makes any opinion based arguments largely irrelevant. gmaleron I'd like to see you refute the numbers that, contrary to what you assert, actually do have a large amount of impact on the game and theoreticals.

I'm also confused as to why the OP didn't make this a poll thread... Smacks of being afraid of what the answer might be to me.

Not ignoring statistics at all but I have played this game long enough and have NEVER seen a game, mine or other peoples where the statistical average was perfect for the entire game. I take it into account but don't rely heavily on it, and I only am arguing his points because the changes he is proposing are way to drastic and if you agree with that then so are you. If the Riptide got nerfed that badly then all other MC's including those from the "Mighty Imperium of Man" should to without question.

Look, you're making this IoM vs Xenos; no one else has made it that.